*
I have come across this problem many times over the years and have solved it with many different methods. However it always takes too long and is seldom is exactly what I’m looking for. The problem: I am cutting rafters for a 12/12 roof and I have an 8/12 dormer intersecting. The valley created at the intersection between the dormer and the main roof have a 65 degree angle. I have an excellent 12″ slide miter saw that will only cut 60 degrees. The question: Does anybody have a good method to cut degrees above 60 quickly and efficiently and safely?
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Replies
*
I clamp a board to the fence and cut it at 90 degrees and then from there angle the saw to where you want it: set it at 80 degrees for a 10 degree angle (90 minus 80). The blade will want to pull the board into the saw so make sure you clamp it good.
*You're cutting 2X rafters? It's not cabinetry or trim. Break out the old skilsaw.
*Larry - how about this - cut a block, say 12" long, with the angle of the plumb cut on one end, with a 45 degree bevel on it. okay, now mark the cut you want to make on your rafter cut it off with a square cut and screw that block to the rafter with the log edge of that block running along your cut line (the block will be sticking up in the air like a little wing). Now, if you are following me, you'll see that if your saw is set at 0 degrees, and you run it along that cut line with the table flat on the block, it will make a 45 degree cut, right? And say you set your saw to cut 10 degrees and make that same cut - 10 degrees on your saw, and 45 degrees on the block add up to 55 degrees, right? So just subtract 45 degrees from whatever the angle is supposed to be and set your saw to cut the difference (if your angle is 65 degrees, set the saw at 20 degrees). It takes a second to fasten the block to each rafter, and you have to make two passes with the skill saw for each cut, but I'm pretty sure it will work.
*I agree with Ralph. A good quality cut CAN be made with a skillsaw.
*I agree too.I was a framer for years. I never used a mitre box until I started learning interior trim. We did all the outside cornice work with a skilsaw.Ed. Williams
*Is there some reason why you can't just flip the board and cut the reciprocal ?
*If you want to cut a 65 degree angle just make a 20 degree wedge and clamp it to your miter box then set the saw to a 45 degree and and there you have a 65 degree angle.
*Larry,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*I just finished framing a roof that needed 65 degree bevel cuts on the rafters. I used a skil saw to cut the angle and a power planer to get the bevels. Worked well.
*... or the skilsaw with a bevel angle dialed in will do both at once. I liked using the speed square to cut a prototype piece, then mark off the rest from it. Used strings and tape measure to find angles and lengths from the root of the cut. But I'm still too slow at getting the fit -- the "geometrically challenged."There was a recent FHB article on this -- maybe 6 issues back? And Ken Drake says he's writing something up now.
*Joe has a good point go dust off the hand saw and sharpen it up .
*Larry,Where did the 65 degree angle come from? The angles for cutting the jacks are 34 degrees on the 12/12 jacks, and 56 degrees on the 8/12 jacks, as well as the cheek cuts at the top of the valley rafters.
*When I first started and asked an old timer how to make those cuts, he took my Skill77 out of my hand and showed me. When he was done he told me all about Larry Haghn(sp?) I got the book a few years ago after I found out who Larry was. Good info.
*Larry,Let me add a little to my earlier post regarding saw bevels to cut jack rafters.Look at the two diagrams below. The top diagram shows an INCORRECT method for determining the CIRCULAR SAW bevel to cut 8/12 valley jacks, assuming that you own a circular saw that can "swing" to the angle shown.( the speed square is being held flush with the TOP EDGE of the valley rafter so that the string is in contact with the speed square. This angle is the angle to cut the PLYWOOD SHEATHING, not the angle to tilt the shoe , or table, of your circular saw.This angle WOULD BE CORRECT, if you were using a hand saw and were cutting from the top of the rafter, down through a plumb line on the FACE of the rafter. This is what is known, as the "side cut", only useful when cutting from the top ( which we very rarely do, in practice)If you kept the pivot point of the speed square, ( the point where the string meets the edge of the valley rafter) the same, but lowered the PLANE of the speed square down and away from the string, until it reached a LEVEL position, then, plumbed down from the string to the square, the angle would change to 56 degrees, the CORRECT bevel using a circular saw, if it can swing that far. This is the same angle that you would see in the PLAN VIEW of the roof.There's a much easier method to determine this angle without ever moving your feet from the ground. See Diagram below.On the square corner of a sheet of plywood, mark off the two UNIT RISES ( 8 from 8/12 and 12 from 12/12, the numbers on the top of the fractions). Then just use your speed square as shown to determine the circular saw bevels. This will work for ANY combination of roof pitches at 90 degree intersections.The larger angle, 56 degrees in this case, will be the circular saw bevel for cutting the 8/12 jack rafters, and the smaller angle, 34 degrees, is the bevel for cutting the 12/12 jack rafters. To cut these rafters, I personally use an 8 1/4", 60 degree tilt worm drive SKIL saw, model 5860. About $160 and well worth it. You couldn't ask for more saw. To answer your original question, how to cut bevels beyond 60 degrees (which shouldn't be necessary in your present situation), I'll demonstrate how I do it in another post, mananaKen
*Larry,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Larry, you obviously love using your excellent slide mitre saw, even though it's the wrong tool. To continue using that tool past 60 degrees, you'll have to cut a shim that is equal to the differnece in your tool's angle and the angle that you need.blue
*Hand saw....either plug in...or squirrel powered. Jeff
*Joe...Don't start picking on Ken Drake. You both have abilities except you need to berate us all...Stop the berating of well respected participants. Grow up already Joe.Not ever gonna stand for your crap at my end of the stream,ajThe editor just warned you less than a month ago and your back at it! I suggest you not post replies to those of us that you have no restraint with. Learn to debate the message. Or at least go after the armchair electricians with me, who are posting goofy electric solutions.
*Larry,Here is a method that I often use to make bevel cuts on rafters when the bevel is beyond 60 degrees. This method would work for any bevel beyond 45 degrees, so I'll demonstrate the method for a 56 degree cut, which should be the cut you need to make on your 8/12 valley jacks.Keep in mind that these cuts are on rafters that are not exposed. See Drawings below.I think the drawings are pretty much self explanatory, but I'll make a few comments anyway.Lay the rafter flat on your saw horses as you normally would and mark a 8/12 plumb line as shown. Set the bevel of your circular saw to 34 degrees ( 90 - 56 = 34 )and cut the plumb line. Next, scribe a line down the center of this first cut and set your saw back to zero. Holding your saw "sideways" cut thru the scribed line to achieve the desired 56 degree cut. ( the rafter is still lying flat on the saw horses when making this cut)You may want to tack a couple of nails on either side of the rafter before making this second cut, to prevent it from moving as you cut.The bottom diagram shows the jack rafter nailed into place. Unless you're a real purist at heart, there really isn't any need to make the 56 degree cut all the way through the rafter, unless the rafters are exposed. Cutting them as shown, will give you excellent nailing and holding, and the cuts look good when the rafters are in place also.Ken
*
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Mr Drake,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Mr Fusco,Have it as you wish. I don't like cutting with a hand saw. Too slow and too much elbow grease for me. Most of the large custom roofs that I cut have several hundred jack rafters, and if, for example, the roof pitch combo is 6/12 with 12/12, the angle for cutting the 6/12 jacks would be 63 1/2 degrees.I'm not going to cut about 150, 6/12, 2X8 jack rafters with a hand saw. The guys on the crew would wrap me up in a white sheet and haul me off to the nearest mental clinic, with saw in hand.I was simply answering Larry's question. Basically, he wanted to know how others in the trades make these cuts. I demonstrated one of several different methods that I use. I don't think that I implied that it was the only way to do it, altho it is a good method, and one that I frequently use.I'd like to also respond to a previous post that you made after I demonmstrated how to determine the bevels for cutting irregular jacks, using the corner of a sheet of plywood. I find it a bit ironic, possessing a degree in mathematics, that I'm the one bending over backwards to create methods that framers can understand, and use, in the field, to determine bevels, etc., without having to understand trigonometry. For you to suggest that finding the Inverse Tangent of .6667 is an "even easier method", I would say you are not tuned in to the average math abilities of people working in the trades. Anyone on your crew could understand the method that I demonstrated in my post. But how many of your crew can find the ArcTan(.6667) at the job site?RespectfullyKen Drake
*Mr Drake,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Mr. Fusco,As for the guys I work shoulder to shoulder with, I'm not "selling them short", as you suggest. I'm just being realistic. The average framer doesn't have a strong math background. This has nothing to do with intelligence. Many of the guys I work with are very bright indeed, way smarter than I am. They just didn't have the opportunity to learn math when they were young, for one reason or another.As for the graphic in your last post with the sliding T-bevel square, what do you plan to do with the T-bevel square once you've got it screwed down at the desired angle? Mark it on a piece of plywood and measure the angle with a speed square?
*Mr Drake,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Mr Fusco,Even if you own Skil Model 5860 which bevels to 60 degrees, your point is moot. Remember, we are talking here about bevels BEYOND 60 degrees, so your reply to my last post makes no sense, does it?
*tough my ass....Joe...You are a bully and a jerk of your own unique kind.You are not a nice person....You are a trouble making adult with a childs ability to get along.near the other end of our mutual stream,aj
*Mr Jack,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Mr Drake,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Joe....I will vomit on you forever....You are sick and your sickness makes me vomit on you.near the other end of the stream,aj
*Joe....People do not cut a hundred rafters with a handsaw....you do in your dreams.near the stream,aj
*Mr Jack,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Mr. Fusco,In your last post you said "Sure it does. . . We're talking about 56 and 34. If it's over that I'll just use the bevel to mark right on the rafter and just cut it with my hand saw. . ."Perhaps you should go back to one of my earlier posts to see why this would be an INCORRECT method.(Remember the string?)If you mark the angle from your "framing square method" ( equivalent to my plywood method ) on the top edge of the rafter and then cut it with your handsaw along a plumb line on the face of the rafter, the rafter will not fit properly, because you would be making the wrong cut. As I pointed out in that post, the angle that results on top of the rafter is the plywood sheathing angle. You need to mark out the "SIDE CUT ANGLE", or the plywood cut, if you are going to use a handsaw to make your cuts.Take a few deep breaths, and reread the information in this thread, before making further posts.
*Mr Drake,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Mr Fusco,It's not fiction at all.It's reality. Every bit of which can be backed up with sound mathematics. I'll be happy to answer any questions regarding the math involved, if you'd like.
*Mr Jack,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Mr Drake,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Mr Drake,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*I am your nemesis.near the other end of the stream,aj
*Antagonist Joe....You should make it part of the logo.near the other end of the stream,aj
*Mr. Fusco,56 degrees is the PLAN VIEW angle, the tilt of the blade on a circular saw, if your circular saw can tilt to that degree, as with a SKIL saw model number 5860.To cut rafters with a hand saw, you need to mark out an 8/12 plumb line of the FACE of the rafter, and the "SIDE CUT" or "PLYWOOD CUT" angle on the top surface of the rafter, in this case, 61 degrees, as I demonstrated in the post with the "string".The method that you suggested, using a framing square, yields the correct PLAN VIEW angle to cut using a circular saw. It is NOT the same for cutting with a hand saw. Please reread this thread from the beginning, so that we can find some common ground.Respectfully,Ken
*This illustration shows the roof in 3-dimensional view, not PLAN VIEW.To cut with a hand saw, the proper angle to mark on the top surface of the rafter, would be 61 degees, the same as the "plywood cut"
*Mr Drake,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Mr. Fusco,What I am saying in response to your last post, is that if you cut the 8/12 jack rafter with a circular saw, the angle that RESULTS on the top surface of the rafter, would be 61 degrees, or the "plywood cut", also known as the "side cut", when using a hand saw.If you want to use a hand saw to cut the rafters, as was commonly done before the invention of the circular saw, then you would have to cut from the top of the rafter, down through an 8/12 plumb line on the FACE of the rafter. The correct angle to draw on the top surface of the rafter to make such a cut is the "plywood angle" or the "side cut" angle, 61 degrees, not 56 degrees, the PLAN VIEW angle.I think you probably own a circular saw that is capable of making a 56 degree bevel on an 8/12 plumb line. Please, go ahead and make the cut on a scrap 2X4 and measure the angle on the top surface of the 2X4 with a protractor or a speed square. 61 degrees, the plywood cut, or side cut.One more time. If you want to use a handsaw, this is the angle to use on the top surface of the rafter, not 56 degrees, as you show in your graphic.
*gentlemen................................
*burotn,It would be nice if the angle we see in PLAN VIEW would always be the correct angle to cut using a hand saw from the top of a rafter, down through a plumb line on the FACE of the rafter, but it isn't.If it were, then when we wished to cut the plywood to cover up a single pitch hip roof, we would always be able to cut the plywood at 45 degrees, REGARDLESS of the pitch of the roof, but we know that isn't correct.burotn, try this little experiment.Suppose you wanted to cut jack rafters for a regular, single pitch, 12/12 hip roof. You would, correctly, set your circular saw bevel to 45 degrees to cut all of the jack rafters.Now, suppose the power failed, and you still had 10 jack rafters to cut, and you absolutely had to finish the job to get your "draw" to pay the men on the crew on Friday afternoon, (or get your butt kicked).Lucky for you, you have a handsaw in the truck.You draw a 45 degree line across the top surface of the first jack rafter, and cut down through a 12/12 plumb line on the FACE of the rafter, and hand it up to the guys "up top", after they gave you the length.They yell down that the lenght is right, but the bevel is wrong.What is wrong?The problem is, that the correct angle to draw on the top surface of the rafter isn't 45 degrees. Instead, its the angle that the plywood should be cut at, 54 3/4 degrees, using a speed square. This angle is also known as the "side cut" angle.To test the accuracy of this post, draw a 12/12 plumb line on a 2x4 scrap. Set your circular saw to 45 degrees, as if cutting a jack rafter for the roof, make the cut, then measure the angle on the top surface of the "rafter", using a speed square, or a protractor.About 54 3/4 degrees?This is precisely what I have been talking about in this thread. If you want to use a handsaw to cut jack rafters, all well and good, but lay out the correct angle on the top surface. The plywood, or side cut angle, NOT the PLAN VIEW angle.Ken
*Mr Drake,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Mr Fusco,In days gone by, before the circular saw was created, all jack rafters were cut using a hand saw. I think we can agree on that much.To make these cuts, roof framers would draw an angle across the top surface of a rafter ( its back ), and cut down through a plumb line on the FACE of the rafter, for the given pitch of the roof. This angle, was known as the "side cut angle". It would be the same angle that would occur on the plywood, once the rafters were installed, as I've pointed out.For a single pitch hip roof, the side cut angle would always be greater than 45 degrees( using a speed square to measure it), and would vary, with the roof pitch. For example, if the roof pitch were 12/12, the side cut angle would be 54 3/4 degrees, using a speed square, as I suggested to burotn in my last post. You could lay out this side cut angle, on the top surface of the rafter, using a framing square ( speed squares, of course, did not exist at this time), if you used 12" on the TONGUE of the square, and 8 1/2" on the BODY or BLADE of the square, letting the tongue determine the side cut line. This is how rafters were cut in days gone by. A roof cutter would draw this side cut angle across the top surface of the rafter, and then extend a plumb line down the face of the rafter, and "eyeball" the cut through these two lines, using a handsaw.I'll pause here, awaiting your next reply, as I'm sure you have comments, and questions.And by the way Mr. Fusco, I spent a period of my life living in the country of Haiti, where Voodoo is not a word to be thrown around in jest. I don't think that the people living there would appreciate the manner in which you carelessly use this word, and I personally, don't appreciate you using it in reference to the mathematical facts that underlie this topic. Ken
*Mr Drake,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Mr Drake,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Mr. Fusco,I'm not sure if you posted your last reponse before you read my most recent post, which does contain some of the math that you may wish to know. Sometimes we post at approximately the same time without having read each others comments.If you will specifify the math that you wish me to "step up to the plate with", I will, tomorrow, at some time, respond.( at half-time)By the way Mr. Fusco, I've never made a concious effort to "impress you with my mathematical prowress" as you put it. I'm simply responding to your comments from a mathematical perspective, as you so often request.
*while you two are at it, I will suggest a fast, but potentially dangerous method for using a skilsaw to cut a bevel that exceeds what the saw will bevel to.Mark the plumb cut on the face of the rafter. Cut this off square, as the long point of the bevel. Then, marking the back of the rafter with the correct angle (see above), run the saw down the plumb cut eyeballing the bevel angle that is marked, and, tracking the blade down the plumb cut by using the corner, or the long point of the bevel, as your cut line. You'll find that once the saw has cut more than an inch, it holds the bevel nicely, and it's then up to you to cut a straight line.This works well when the material is secure, in front of you, and at a little above waist height. You will be greatly helped by a wormdrive that has a handle on top. You must also "pin" the guard with a thumb while starting the cut. This will enable you to sight the spinning blade across the back of the rafter to your bevel angle.If you've done it, you know how sweet it is. If you haven't, you probably think I'm nuts. I am, but this is too fast and good not to mentionbe careful...ps. if my memory is correct, I can cut most of a 70º bevel on 2x stock, with a 7 1/4 blade, leaving a little bit uncut. I tear off the waste, and (pinning the guard with a thumb again), ease the rest of the waste off by dragging the saw blade over it once.
*Mr Drake,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Hi Nathan,How's your octagon coming along? Good I hope.I don't think that you're nuts Nathan, altho you seem to indicate in your post that it may be a possibility. (The very fact that you are communicating with Mr. Fusco and Myself supports this hypothesis.)I have used the method you suggested many times. In essence, it is very similar to the method I described earlier, except that I only make the cut on half of the rafter, to avoid "tearing off the waste and dragging the saw blade over it", as you put it.The only thing that I would do differently from what you suggest is to tilt the saw to 90 degrees minus the plan view angle before making the cut. In this way, you don't have to follow any lines on the "back" (top surface) of the rafter as you cut. You just rest the table of the saw on the square cut, then cut down the edge of the plumb line.This only requires that you know the correct plan view angle, which for example, in a regular octagon, would be 67 1/2 degrees. After making the plumb cut square as you suggest, I would tilt the saw to 90 - 67 1/2 = 22 1/2 degrees, and run it down the plumb line, similar to what you do, but I only have to concentrate on the plumb line, nothing else.What's interesting about these type of cuts, is the resulting angle that appears on the top surface of the jack rafter. If the roof pitch were say, 9/12, the resulting angle would be just under 72 degrees ( 71.7 degrees). This is known as the "side cut" as I have mentioned. It can be expressed either in degrees, or as a framing square ratio.If you wished to make this cut using a hand saw, you would draw the 72 degree angle across the top of the rafter, then where is meets the edge of the rafter, draw a plumb line down the face. This would provide the two lines you would need to guide your hand saw as you make the cut. The result, of course, would be the same 67 1/2 degree plan view cut as we made before.The diagram below shows a 3-dimensional view of the octagon jack rafter, and demonstrates the math that lies behind the scenes. Triangle ABC shows the pitch of the roof to be 9/12. AC is the length of the jack rafter for 12 inches of RUN, or 15 inches. AD represents the octagon hip, (it's not necessary to know it's length) and BD represents the Run of the hip, just under 13 inches, which is why, once again, that we use 13 on the body of a framing square, not 17, when cutting octagon hip rafters.BCEF represents the jack rafter in Plan View, and ACEG is the projection of the plan view of the rafter to a 9/12 pitch.As the roof pitch increases, the angle that appears on the top of the rafter gets smaller and smaller, in this case a little more than 18 degrees. This is the same as a 72 degree angle if using a speed square.So if we wished to cut this jack rafter with a hand saw, 72 degrees would be the angle to draw on the top surface of the rafter using a speed square, not 67 1/2 degrees, the plan view angle. By cutting through this line, while at the same time following a plumb line down the side of the rafter, the desired cut can be made.I hope this sheds some new light on the subject, as well as perhaps answering Mr. Fusco's question regarding the math involved.To find the number of degrees in angle CAD, using trig, first find the length of side CD = 12 x tan 22.5 degrees = 4.97.Then angle CAD = ArcTan (4.97/15) = ArcTan (.3313) = 18.3 degrees
*Gee, I never knew you needed a Master's degree in math to be a carpenter.Most of the people framing roofs around here don't speak calculus, trig or English, yet they seem to frame a roof just fine.Any of you mathmeisters got a simple way of explaining how to make these cuts without a computer on your sawhorses? P.S. If I asked a framer what something looked like in the "plan view" he'd probably say "Plan who?".
*Joel,Your point is well taken.It isn't necessary to understand the diagram I included in my last post. I presented it for those who might be interested in the math. As it is Joel, I normally try to avoid using a lot of math in my posts, especially trig, as I realize that many readers have difficulty with it. There are many others however, that enjoy the math, and want to learn more about how to use it, so I try to find common ground. I am a bit suprised by your comment regarding "plan view". I thought this was a rather common phrase used in the building trades.Ken
*Mr Drake,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Mr. Drake,
View Image © 1999-2000 "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Mr Fusco,To tell the truth, I'm not sure exactly what your question is at this point. Could you restate it?
*Mr. Drake,
View Image © 1999-2000 "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Mr.Fusco,I took a look at your latest graphic. It's okay Joe, but why would you want to make a fairly simple topic appear so confusing to the readers in this forum?When you introduce circles into your graphic, you're just going to scare people away. There really is no need for the circle, as the whole subject can be explained with simple right triangles.The 33.69º and 56.31º angles that you show, are the CIRCULAR SAW BEVELS for cutting the 12/12 and 8/12 rafters, respectfully.The 29.02º angle is the "side cut" angle that YOU should use with your HAND SAW on the top surface of the 8/12 jack rafters, or 60.98º using a speed square.The 29.02º angle is also the plywood cut on the 8/12 side of the roof, at the top of the valley, once again using a speed square.What is your point, and where are you trying to go with this?
*Joe,This thread started out with Larry dacci asking for info on how to cut bevels beyond 60º. Now it's evolved into just you and I talking about side cuts, hand saws, Chevy versus Ford, calculators, and whatever. Maybe we just ought to let this thread go to bed, before they start calling us the "Odd Couple"Ken
*Mr. Drake,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Joe,See my last post.
*Circles!scary.Math!scary.Sliding off an octagonal roof, screaming like a woman all the way down!Actually, not all that bad. Its that nasty, sudden stop at the ground that takes all the fun out of the ride.
*Mike,Go over to the Tavern, see "special characters" thread, open Cooking Monsters website in his post, and find out who you are.Joe,You don't even want to go there.
*Joe and Jack (and to a lesser extent Ken):Jeez, in the time you two took to write these flamers, poor Larry could have cut his stupid Dormer by hand, without a handsaw, skillsaw, or with a mitre box. I'd scribe one or two samples, nail one, and use the second to make the rest. For compound cuts, I don't think I'd ever use anything but a compound slide saw, but hey, different strokes for different folks, and thats why they make chocolate and vanilla.This is probably the last question he will ever post.Maybe we do need a moderator.
*Scooter,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Joe....Wake up....What does repeatedly asking your loaded questions to all you want to trump for the past two years I have been here, have with being a joy to yak with?Answer my question Joe....Just answer my question.Your style has not changed at all.not near your end of the stream as always,aj(I must say, you are entertaining to chuckle at)
*I don't think you want to cut this with a skil saw, but rather a Stihl saw, 14" bar, picco chain, saw dust a flyin'. I use it to cut out door plates and a few more things. It is a skill that has to be learned and practiced to get good at, and yes you can make very pretty and tight fitting joints this way.(but you will get looks, but soon those giving the looks are trying it the new way also) Also, I believe Joe and AJ are the same person, possibly a psycho,multiple personality that can't get along(man I would hate to be inside that head, imagine the screaming) Keith C
*Keith...Beam me up Scotty!...I want an exorcism quick!near the stream,aj
*Mr. Jack,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Mr. Jack,
View Image © 1999-2000"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Now I'm chuckling near the stream,Love and kisses to you to Joe,aj
*Nathan, I cut all my jacks using that technique. I can whack a pretty good angle because my table extension is removed. I prefer to cut all the angles square first primarily so that the drop is always usuable without a recut.blue
*Scooter,I find your post interesting, but also insulting. Not only to Joe Fusco and AJ, but also to myself "(and to a lesser extent, Ken)", as you put it. (Thanks for judging us, BTW )I make my living cutting roofs Scooter. That's all I do. Day after day.Once the floor plan is snapped out on the slab, I cut the entire roof; hip and valley rafters, broken hips, ridge boards ( laid out), common rafters, ALL of the jack rafters, including hip to valley jacks. Every rafter in the roof, regardless if it is a single pitch, or irregular double pitch roof, before all, or any, of the walls are stood. I only use a 7 1/4" Dewalt sidewinder, with a 50º bevel capacity, and a model 5860 Skil worm, that can tilt to 60º.For you to come in to this thread and suggest that, as you put it,"For compound cuts, I don't think I'd ever use anything but a compound slide saw," indicates to me that you have very little roof framing experience, and also indicates to me why you have apparently no appreciation for any of the content in this thread.Take a good look around Scooter, at other job sites, and notice how other journeymen in the trades cut rafters. You will see that no one who cuts roofs for typical custom roof framing, where rafters are not exposed to view, even brings a "compound slide saw" to the job site for this purpose, unless it were perhaps to cut some unusual EXPOSED rafters, or perhaps to make some special cuts. It's not the right tool for the job.Joe Fusco, AJ, Myself, and others, have had our differences in this forum over the years. Any of the comments that they have made directly to me, however, pale in comparison to your posted comments. I find it very strange that someone with so little experience as you apparently have re:roof framing, would come in here to judge any one of us.Compound slide saws are wonderful tools Scooter, but when it comes to standard 2X unexposed rafter cutting, single pitch or double pitch, save yourself a buck or two, and cut them with circular saws.Ken Drake
*Scoot....A chop box to cut rafters?!!?....What kind of armchair nonsense are you posting silly boy?Get a life....Cut a birdsmouth with a chop my boy...show me the light...Jeesh...This isn' breaktime...it's lala land to amuse the masses,aj
*I will not dignify this childish back and forth banter by yet another insult, which I could easily do.A moderator! A moderator! My kingdom for a moderator!
*To All,Sometimes, in the heat of the moment, we all say things, that in after thought, we wished we would have expressed differently. I'm guilty.Scooter and I have e-mailed our thoughts to each other, regarding our respective posts, and have talked about our differences regarding this topic. The one thing that we surely agree on is that there is no need for flaming in these threads, in expressing our opinions. Guilty again. Happy Holidays,Ken
*Ken, everyone is entitled to a bad day. I was kinda surprised at the over reaction to scooter's call for a moderator from you. It's uncharacteristic. I was startled at the strength of your refusal to recognize the difference of opinion regarding the choice of saw.I'm glad you offered this truce and respect you more for it. I'm also somewhat surprised at the strength of AJ's attack on Joe's original semi-flame, especially since it seems that Joe has toned down his personal remarks considerably. Remeber Aj, changing one's spots is hard work and it takes time. Be patient and give credit where credit is due. I applaud Joe's efforts and see some light at the end of the tunnel, which previously was slammed tight. In some weird way, I enjoy the mathematical debate between Joe and Ken as long as it basically sticks to the issues. Aj, is it the time of the month for you, or have you escalated your drinking? You need a tennis court or two to get you busy again...And now, back to the point. The original poster didn't even thoroughly explain his situation. I assumed that the angle that he needed cut was a simple angle and gave an answer that would apply to a fenced tool such as a mitre box or radial arm saw. You guys are debating a "difficult" degree for rafter work.I know a little about cutting those (roof members). I've always managed to make all my cuts with a 7 1/4 sidewinder. I've never operated one that tilted more than 45º (thank you for the "Character" thread). I do a lot of mitreing of exterior pinework and would immensely dislike a saw that tilted beyond 45º.I use a variation of Nathan's methods for most severe angles, but rarely find a need to make a full depth cut that would require a "raking" anymore. I normally only bevel half the thickness on rafters that are too severe. I suppose that if I needed to do a more aethetically pleasing job, due to exposure issues, I'd have to search out a better tool. In the meantime, I'll stick to my money maker and save the artwork techniques for situations that warrant the extra effort.I don't think I'll be switching to chainsaws in the near future however. And I certainly am not going to haul out a shop tool for a rough frame either...blue
*Right....blue....look....I think some of the posts lately are silly as hell....Asking a question to badger is bullshit....Saying one cuts rafters with a chop box is bullshit (it can't even be done!... IF it can, I want to see the video!)..Giving stupid Canadian electric ideas out is bullshit (This board is assumed to be US and NEC unless stated otherwise...and yes that is my opinion and assumption.)Up to my net connection in dung,ajAnd drinking too much coffee actually!!!!!!!! It is fun to be a hard ass though! (My persona of the month...Check me next month.) Tennis done...Lakeside structure renovation on deck.
*I think some of the stupid posts are the most entertaining(I mean hell, that's why I come here anyway, to entertain or be entertained) At least when we hear from these freakin' idiots, asking even more moronic questions, I get all warm and fuzzy knowing there will be lots of repair work when this boom goes south. I see chop saws on framing jobs everyday. Not on my crews , but others use them for all kinds of stud and block work. I hate them, too much lifting stock to the table ,then down, I like to handle it as LEAST as possible, but that's me I"M LAZY. I see the compound sliders for sticking roofs to. Who wants to lift 2x10's and 12's up to a slider?Lazy again for me. I'm lucky to get it to the horses, I'd rather cut it on the pile, slide it alittle but never lift it, that's for the young guns.(Body by Soloflex, brain by mattel) JUST MY THOUGHTS.
*Aj, as usual I agree with you. I suppose it's either my pack mentality, or you are simply right. The Canadien electric posts should labeled as Canadien code, the same way I (and many others) always indicate that some of the things we do here are "regionally" "normal" practice. Every region has it's own peculiar needs to create safe structures and readers need to beware.Aj, just lay off the caffeine before you turn into a GabJo (a GabJo is a poster that many ignore because of their insensitive replys) though.I gotta believe that most 2x6 rafters can easily be whacked and hacked in some of the bigger compound sliding mitre boxes however. I wouldn't recommend it, but to each his own. You have to remember that many in here don't rely on production and are quite happy spending the extra time double handling the stock, in exchange for the "perfect" cuts that they produce. If they start talking about running the rafters through jointers and planers and sanding them with 220 grit sandpaper though....AJ, I'm sending a batch of holiday decaffinated coffee for you and the Mrs. ...blue
*Keith,Your post is accurate.I can't imagine in my wildest dreams, standing at a compound slider all day, working alone as I do, using a slider as my tool of choice, to cut a roof. As I mentioned to Scooter, it's just not the right tool for the job, and I do own a good one. Neither is a handsaw, which definitely is not the right tool for the job. Break out a couple of high powered 60º bevel circular saws ( such as Skil worm drive model 5860 ), and go for it.
*Ken, If I did nothing but cut roofs every day, I'd probably get a couple of saws that you recomend.and...probably after one week, I'd book an appointment with Dr. K.blueps. I'm considering a new Const Master IV for $69...
*Pssssssst..Blue.....pssssst blue, they sell it at Homer Cheapo for $49.00. A very good investment if even to impress the crew with your diagonals to the 1/16" in 5 keystrokes.Keith
*Thanks for the tip Keith.I don't think I could impress my crew with that tidbit though. I don't think I could even get an ything done in 5 keystrokes....I was just kidding about getting one....blue
*blue,Just get one and we'll open a new thread, and take it from there. I'll take you on a ride with it.Ken
*I felt like a wiener when I first got mine also. But after 1 day, WOW.... this is easy. A little easier than the transition from hammers to nailers. Once you take that first step..... technology is goooooood.
*As I understand it, the original question was how to cut a rafter with a cheek cut of 65 degrees. Now, I don't cut roofs for a living, but I do frame houses for a living. Every house that I frame does have a roof on it. When I run across a situation requiring a cheek cut of greater than 45 degrees (saw setting) I reach for one of my low-angle swing-table saws that will cut cheek cuts up to 75 degrees. I have 10 inch,12 inch,14 inch,16 inch and a 20 inch swing table saws. I also have a saw that will cut up to a 16 inch long ridge cut on as much as a 72 degree angle. But like I say, I don't cut roofs for a living, just as a part of framing the house.
*R....i 20 inch swing table saws....Ok....explain these swing deals and how much $$$ do you have invested in such in five sizes...!?near the edge of my chair,aj
*Here's an interesting article that goes with this thread:Swing-table saws, and more
*If you'll read the message and the attached article by Ralph Wicklund it will explain it far better than I can. I'm one of those old California roof cutters. Some of my saws were made by Nate Fletcher, but my newer ones are by "Big foot Bob" or are ones that I've had made by local machine shops. As for cost! over $5000.00 invested. The most expensive was the 20'' $1200.00
*R....Does a 20" saw have any torque left to cut?....And where does one buy 20" blades....What does the blade cover look like?...We need pics of your collection....IF ya don't have a scanner...get a friend to post pics here....I read Ralphs article...Neat...That 20" would cut logs real fine like...What depth does it cut off to.near the stream,aj
*To cut practically any bevel in a 2X,limited only by the depth of cut of your circular saw, have either clamps or a helper hold your board on edge (as opposed to flat) on your saw horses, then cut your bevel at the end of the board (cutting vertically downward). For a bevel of 65, set your saw at 25 (90-65).
*Hi AJ; Yes it does have torque to cut. It was made from a Skilsaw model 127 with 19 amps. I want to have it re-wound for 220v someday. The blades I have made by a local sawyer, but he used too thick of a blank and I'm not pleased with their performance. It"ll cut 8.75'' at a 90 degree and about 5.75'' at a 65 degree. I bought a BigBoy 14'' saw from Bigfoot tools about 18 months ago and it has become my favorite rafter saw. It'll cut 5.5'' at 68 degree and is 1/3 the wieght of my 20''. If you ever run across saws like these, let me know as I'll buy them.
*LARRY- AFTER MANY METHODS TRIED AND MANY DOLLARS SPENT I'VE RETURNED TO THE OLD 'BEAVER' METHOD. WHEN THE CREW REACHES THE ROOF TWO SAWS ARE LACED UP AT THE CUTTING STATION. A 7-1/4" OR 10" CIRCULAR (7-1/4"-2X & TJI UP TO 350'S / 10"-550'S) AND A SAWS-ALL READIED WITH A 12" BLADE.CIRCULAR SAW FOR OBVIOUS REASONS AND THE SAWS-ALL FOR COMPOUND MITRES. MARK THE TOP AND BOTH SIDES OF THE RAFTER FOR BLADE/ANGLE REFERENCE, BRACE VERTICALLY WITH BOTTOM OF RAFTER ON TOP, AND CUT USING YOUR MARKS FOR A VISUAL GUIDE. CUTTING ONE VALLEY SET SHOULD PRIME YOU FOR THE REST. CLEAN, EFFICIENT, SAFE AND, PRIDE IN A GOOD JOB EVEN AFTER ROLL-UP YOUR HEADING TO THE TRAILER WITH THE OLD 'BEAVER'.
*ALLCAPS,STOP SCREAMING.
*Sorry Ken...I didn't mean to offend anyone. Most of my computer work is done in all caps. Habit?
*Wood Tick,Why?
*Wood Tick,I wasn't offended. Didn't mean it to sound so serious.I'm curious about how your method for cutting rafters. Do you always use a sawzall, even for 45 degree cuts?
*JRS- Mostly because that's the way I write....maybe a bit of laziness too. Did I say the 'L' word?Ken Drake- To answer your question, not at all. The circular saw takes care of 45's and down. When you get down to it-it's a powered handsaw(the saws-all).
*
I have come across this problem many times over the years and have solved it with many different methods. However it always takes too long and is seldom is exactly what I'm looking for. The problem: I am cutting rafters for a 12/12 roof and I have an 8/12 dormer intersecting. The valley created at the intersection between the dormer and the main roof have a 65 degree angle. I have an excellent 12" slide miter saw that will only cut 60 degrees. The question: Does anybody have a good method to cut degrees above 60 quickly and efficiently and safely?