How much is too much? Good luck getting an electrician out to, say, move one outlet. That’s silly. Likewise, you don’t need a plumber to install a sink and taps – my insurance company told me so!
How far is too far? I know where I’m comfortable – and I had the opportunity to draw the line with a client. But that doesn’t mean that I’m necessarily playing it smart.
Replies
I think it is all comfort zone and permits. In my area only severe plumbing require permits. No electrical, structural etc. for residential. They recently dropped water heater installs from the permit requirements.
Also I started out doing plumbing/electrical in commercial so I am more oriented in that than I am carpentry. But what I am saying is we do it all. If it is commercial we sub some of the skilled areas out or in residential that has specialty items like corian or some types of flooring we sub. But otherwise we are comfortable doing all of it and do. DanT
When I had my own business in my earlier years I would do a bit of electrical and plunbing work..................but my insurance wasn't covering me for that type of work.
God forbid someones house burns down and kills a couple of people and the fire marshal pins the blame on that guy who added this outlet.
Be careful.
[email protected]
My business model is additions, bathrooms, kitchens and the like. I find that we are brutally efficient in these areas. The idea of subbing out all the different disciplines on jobs like these is done, but the down time due to scheduling delays etc has got to be ridiculous.
Some of the benefits:
I have total quality control on my projects.
The client only has to deal with me, not a parade of subs.
There is never any down time on the project.
Because of the start to finish work arc, I am always thinking into the future to avoid "painting myself into a corner". In other words I am very motivated not to make more work for myself down the line.
If there is a problem on with the work, the client only has to call me in order to get it resolved.
I find that 90 percent of my work is in my town, my usual commute is 5 minutes. It appears that the more you specialize, the more you have to travel. If we are trying for "greener" building practices, not commuting is what we should aim for. The biggest amount of traveling must be done by the guys that do the countertop templates.
This business model does not work for anything larger, like building a house. The economies of scale kick in at that point, and going with subs is the way to go.
Just my personal opinion.
'The idea of subbing out all the different disciplines on jobs like these is done, but the down time due to scheduling delays etc has got to be ridiculous.'Yeah. And when it comes to remodeling, it seems the project manager has to negotiate between the various trades quite a bit. One small example: if the flooring guys need to put down quarter-round, they'll just leave it off if they know that anyone else with an air nailer is on site. But then no one else has quoted for that labour, and the flooring guys don't want to come back. . .
Edited 12/16/2007 8:08 am ET by Biff_Loman
'The idea of subbing out all the different disciplines on jobs like these is done, but the down time due to scheduling delays etc has got to be ridiculous.'
Yeah. And when it comes to remodeling, it seems the project manager has to negotiate between the various trades quite a bit.
One small example: if the flooring guys need to put down quarter-round, they'll just leave it off if they know that anyone else with an air nailer is on site. But then no one else has quoted for that labour, and the flooring guys don't want to come back. . .
Hijack Alert!!
I have been officially PM for about a year now. Before that over twenty years on my own.
We have a plumbing sub that will usually require only 24 hrs notice. I usually give him a heads up a week or a least a few days out that we are ready to start demo on Monday, can he send a couple of guys out to cut and cap, possibly re-rough if it is feasable to do so. Electrician is in their footsteps sometimes even the same day. We all get along.
I will then let them know when they can get back in to re-rough after framing changes are complete.
If we are doing a finished wood floor, he comes in after drywall and taping is complete.
As soon as cabinetry is complete and we have a date for counter top install, I let them both know. Plumber follows in the foot steps of the CT guys and the electrician is on his heels.
What's the difficulty? You need to have reliable subs that actually want to work WITH you. As Mike Smith relates it; those are his "Associates".
My advice to you and anyone else "dabbling" in trades that their insurance does not cover them for, is to sit down in front of a mirror and have a nice long serious talk with yourself about the ramifications of ever being held responsible for non insured work that causes harm or injury to person or property.
Your life as you know it now will end quickly.
Eric[email protected]
None of the subs I worked with approached that kind of co-operation. Sounds like you've got a good thing going.I'm taking the advice from this forum to heart. I'm really not interested in doing unlicensed work, anyway - I hope I didn't come across that way.
Part of the cooperation thing is that we insist on it, it's easier on all parties in the long run. We actively seek 'associates' or 'trade partners' to work with. Everyone else can keep their subs.
I'm glad that you are re-thinking the other trades thing. I'd hate to see someone get in trouble over that. Keep in mind also, that should you have a relationship go sour, the HO is well within his rights to make issue with the non licensed work. Then watcha gonna do?
Work hard at finding some good trades people like your self that will be willing to partner with you to complete your projects.
Eric[email protected]
>>We have a plumbing sub that will usually require only 24 hrs notice. I usually give him a heads up a week or a least a few days out that we are ready to start demo on Monday, can he send a couple of guys out to cut and cap, possibly re-rough if it is feasable to do so. Electrician is in their footsteps sometimes even the same day. We all get along.
Sounds like good PM'ing. This is my method also. Here in WA plumbing and electrical are both specialty licenses that I cannot get, in spite of having a solid grasp of both. I once agreed to connnect ground wire to ground rods in a ditch so that sparky could leave for an emergency. The inspector came as I was doing it. He could have fined me but just bitched me out instead. Frankly, I have enough to do anyway, and don't have the vehicle necessary to carry all the plumbing and electrical stuff I would need. Finding guys who will drop by and deal with the small stuff has not been hard. Advance notice is everything.
Advance notice is everything.
Our plumbing contractor runs a fairly large, well organized outfit. Probably 20 guys in production, usually two man teams.
The guys we get sent are almost always the same two guys. This is what they do everyday. Some days they get to do one job or maybe two; other days they may bang out 5 or 6 jobs all depending on the type and size.
The guys that runs the scheduling I could kiss, he is awesome. We are partners. He treats us like we treat or HO clients and we treat his company as our partner.
It works out well.[email protected]
Eric hit it on the head. I learned how to do it all and in my early years I did. No so anymore. What I will do though is if I see a fault in plumbing or electrical that requires a minor repair,like put tape around frayed wire or change out a light switch, I will fix it. If I see anything that needs to be repaired that's electrical or plumbing that's major in any way, I tell the customer and urge them to get a licensed pro and i give them the phone #.
Back in the 80's I used to rewire and replumb entire kitchens and baths and do major repairs. I was never really covered for it. Really really stupid, even though I did the job right and followed all the codes and had the thing inspected. Not good. I wasn't licensed in that trade and I wans't insured.
I actually like doing electrical (not so plumbing), doing all the calculations, making neat raceways, learning about the new products etc. But I won't do it for $ anymore.
Back in the 80's I used to rewire and replumb entire kitchens and baths and do major repairs. I was never really covered for it. Really really stupid, even though I did the job right and followed all the codes and had the thing inspected. Not good. I wasn't licensed in that trade and I wans't insured.
That should go in the great quotes folder![email protected]
""Back in the 80's I used to rewire and replumb entire kitchens and baths and do major repairs. I was never really covered for it. Really really stupid, even though I did the job right and followed all the codes and had the thing inspected."" Here you wouldn't get the inspection without a Plumbing or Electrical license. Yes I have done some of it (move outlet, run a new one , reroute vents etc.) But any "real" work I have good reason to call the licensed and appropriate sub for.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Well, I'm "licenced" to do gas fitting. I 'm also "licenced"to do some types of refrigeration and I did an apprenticeship as a draftsmann All of which I do very little, if any, of but sure do a lot of "unlicenced" carpentry, electrical, plumbing, heating and ventilation, tiling, drywalling and probably a lot more that I forget. All of the above are apprenticeship trades so does that mean if you haven't done the apprenticeship, you're not licenced? I'm curious as to what the definition of "licenced" is.
Since plumbing crimpers have been out it sure is a lot safer that using my B tank. The insurance rep asked me about plumbing because of all the fires that plumbers start.
Do I think about the consequences of working "unlicenced". Sure I do but I also worry about falling off a ladder and a host of other things. We all have our own personal limit of "what iff's" I just don't want to be bogged down with too many..
As far as your insurance company helping you out even on the things you think you can do, you might be in for a rude awakening. Any policy that I have had only covers you if you weren't negligent. I believe the insurance company could drive a truck through that loophole but then again I'm playing "what iff"
roger
I'm not sure if U.S has the same policy as Canada, but we have a grandfather claus witch will allow people who have 'slipped under the radar' as well as trained recent immigrants write a cometancy test to become licensed in a particular trade. It is not uncommon to find guys with multiple trade licenses. The tests will give you accreditation to wire or plumb specific applications, I.E wire a residential building under 5000sq. ft, or a commercial building over 20,000 sq. ft. The tuffest part for most people that know the trade is to make the conversion from imperial to metric. All of our tests are done in metric. I don't even know what a 2x4 is in millimetres, but I keep hereing that it's easier. Recently there has been a real crack down on tradesman needing to have their O.T.Q.T, ( Or something like that ) Which is a trade qualifying course. I've been told that ther will be some very stiff fines handed out for people practicing with out a proper lic. I personally don't have any real experience in any mechanical systems, I probably understand enough to by pass the first year of the apprenticeship.
I'm curious as to what the definition of "licenced" is.
First it's "licensed". And It means you have a license form the controlling government authority to do a specific type of work for compensation.
Many jurisdictions allow for incidental work in affiliated trades. i.e. capping off plumbing or elec during demo, etc. I don't know how you can do additions and kitchen remodels and get your inspections signed off without a licensed trade pulling the permits. The line about not being able to find people willing to do the small jobs is preposterous. I would guess you feel uneasy about stepping into the unknown territory of hiring trade subs. The key is finding people that are easy to work with. Sometimes you need to go through quite a few to find good ones. Likewise sometimes it takes some experience to know how to handle yourself properly to build a successful business relationship.
"The line about not being able to find people willing to do the small jobs is preposterous."How small is small? Because, I wouldn't think twice about getting an electrician to wire a *small job* - duh. Just not a small part of a job, like maybe moving an octa box to center a light over a vanity. If that was the only electrical portion of a job, I dunno man. Your sparky would have to be pretty cool. I'm getting the feeling that you guys are thinking on a different scale. I worked for a company that only renovated kitchens and baths. A "big job," in my way of thinking, is a big kitchen. ;-) A "small job" is not a bathroom remodel - I'm thinking more like installing a counter. :-D I'm working my up to there! (feeling pretty damn small now!)
"Just not a small part of a job, like maybe moving an octa box to center a light over a vanity. If that was the only electrical portion of a job, I dunno man. Your sparky would have to be pretty cool."Yeah, they like money. If there's new wires the inspector will notice and ask for to see the electrical signed off or a tag on the switch box. I call them and tell them what needs to be done and they show up. It doesn't matter how long it takes, they bill me for it. Why wouldn't they show up to move a box?? Most people don't know how to change a light fixture and call an electrician to do so. Electricians do small jobs all the time such as moving one box.
I don't understand the problem. Why wouldn't they show up? Why would you take on that liability for a cheaper price to the homeowner? It makes no sense. Call the appropriate licensed contractor to do the work. If you're not licensed for electrical or plumbing, gas fitting or whatever else. Your insurance will not cover you. It's not negligence. It's fraud. You can't charge people to do work you are legally prohibited from doing. You are purporting yourself to be a professional when you very clearly are not under the law. See what your auto insurance company does if you drive without a valid license and get in an accident.
As far as driving without a license, that's not a defense on an insurance policy. The company typically still has to represent you and indemnify you up to policy limits. In many/most states, you can't even bring this up in court during a trial of an automobile accident. The issue is not whether the driver was licensed; the issue is whether they were driving appropriately at the time. On the other hand, in some states, like NY, (IIRC) if you are driving drunk, they can avoid paying the first party benefits like your hospital bills.
Don't know where you are from your profile.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
First: ( is there a second coming)licence is the Canadian/English way of spelling. According to my dictionary license is the American way of spelling. Let me look outside and see where I am.........................................................Yup! I'm in Canada.
Some guys can't spell, type correctly or like me use spell check but we try to give and get information. I don't believe we need to be tested on our grammar. If I've used a term incorrectly like purlin or girt, fine, tell me.
I'm still curious as the difference (if in fact there is any) between being trade certified and licenced. How many of us doing carpentry have served an apprenticeship.
Up here a homeowner can pull his own permit on several trades and do the work themselves. I've met lots of people who only want licenced people doing their stuff and that's fine but they then work on their own car and a host of other things' The list of so called certified trades is huge in Canada. Everything from house painting to landscaping, scaffold erectors etc etc.
To do a kitchen reno I would need at least 5-6 certified/licenced trades and all I could do would be to sweep up after. That's not reality.
The rest of your message must be aimed at someone else because I don't remember saying that stuff but because you wrote "you" I must be getting forgetfull as well as a bad speller.
I work T&M and would never hire a sub for anything. If it's something I can't do or won't do I tell the customer and he has to hire the sub. I might give a name or 2 but that's it.
roger
"To do a kitchen reno I would need at least 5-6 certified/licenced trades and all I could do would be to sweep up after. That's not reality."
That is reality for me and every other reputable contractor I know. Of course I am licensed as a general contractor so I can do a lot more than sweep up. I also don't run my business from the dashboard of my truck.
But don't worry about it. I doubt your customers care, mine do, but then again they would never call someone like you. Good luck.
Ooooooooooooooooh! I suggest Midol for you my friend. You are making some huge assumption leaps. You should be in politics.
Merry Christmas
roger
Sounds like you're familiar with breaking the law. I'm sure you run a very reputable business that is simply above the law that the rest of us rubes must abide by.
There's those assumptions again. You better quit while you can. I was the guy with the big gun who was trained to seek out rubes. Some were hard to spot but some just made their presence know by being unbelievably stupid.
roger
Yeah, I'm quaking in my boots jackass. Go threaten someone who gives a damn.
"Your Honour, I rest my case"
roger
I don't know about the rules where you are, but from everything I saw in over 20 years in a courtroom, the purpose of insurance is to cover you if you ARE negligent. that's the whole purpose of insurance. I'd really like to see the language in any liability policy that excludes negligent conduct.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Kinda like malpractise insurance, eh? No such thing as "bonopractise" insurance. :-DAnd in Canada, "practice" is a noun whereas "practise" is the verb form. I gotta watch my a$$ - I'm qualified to teach high school English in Ontario! ;-) Can't be slipping up on BT.
I too spent many years in an out of a court room though not civil court:)
Without digging around for my liability insurance just think of drunk driving. Your vehicle insurance is null and void if found guilty of impaired driving. At least up here it is.
Negligence , again without looking it up, is doing something that you know you shouldn't be doing. Any lawyer could, or at least try to turn that "did something you knew you shouldn't have" into criminal negligence or close. I'm sure you too have heard lawyers twist and skewer questions of course for their own benefit. I actually liked being on the stand for a battle of wits.
As you probably well know that even being found innocent can cost huge dollars and ulcers.
You have given me food for thought though. I'm going to read the fine print again. The negligent thing was brought up by my insurance agent years ago and I had him for years.
Live long and prosper
roger
Thought I would get back to you on the insurance bit. After reading through pages of convoluted lingo and cover their a$$ words. I found where it says something, something, something, the insured is not covered if the work "was incorrectly performed". A real money maker for lawyers.
roger
I must admit, I have never seen any such clause in any policy here in the states. I don't even think it would be legal to write a policy like that. (Just for the record, I worked directly for Hartford Insurance as a staff attorney, then as outside defense counsel for CNA, Continental, Aetna, Alliance, Crum & Forster, and at least four or five other companies.) What's the sense of having liability insurance?
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Biff,
I do next to nothing in any of the licensed trades. (plumbing, electrical, HVAC). I basically know how, but why?
As far as getting an electrician out to do something minor, I have one particular guy that I generally work with. call him the first string sparky. I also have 3 second string sparkys, that may only get a call from me once a year, but they appreciate the work.
Same with plumbing. One first stringer and 2 second stringers.
But these relationships were built over time, and I seem to recall you are just starting out.
Case in point: I am working on a second floor laundry room. 1st string electrician had shoulder surgery, and is laid up. Call a second stringer and she is looking at the project within 3 hours,(yesterday), and having the guys wire it today.
A big point you are missing doing your own work is networking with the other trades. Earlier this year I had the 1st string electrician on a job, and over lunch talked about what we had coming up workwise. I mentioned being a little thin on work. Couple weeks later I got a call from a new client to sheetrock their basement. The electrician had passed on my name, while at some kind of gathering for his wife's work. (His wife is a nurse)
Turns out the guy with the basement is a Doctor, and is cheif of staff at an area hospital. I have done other work at the place now, and have passed business cards and brochures to the guy who takes care of the yardwork. Yardwork guy has a string of waterfront clients he takes care of, and we went to school together. Doctor's wife also sent an e-mail to their friends with my name and number, and a note that they were very pleased with the work I did. (I did not ask her to do it, she told me as I was finishing the second project)
But what If I had done my own wiring on that first project? I would have made a couple more bucks, exposed myself to a heck of a lot of liability, and missed out on some great word of mouth opportunities.
Couple bucks worth it?
Bowz
It's almost exaggerating to say that I'm starting out, but yeah. ;-) Like, I've barely started.As I said above in this thread: I'm taking all this to heart. This is great advice, and I appreciate it all.