I know the topic has been covered before but I obviously didn’t pay much attention…maybe someone else needs to hear it again.
We’ve had the discussion previously about the Porter Cable full round head stick framers and their tendency to double fire, well one of my guys experienced it first hand…literally today.
He was toenailing the tops of two rim joists together and had his hands a little too close to his work. The gun double fired and caught him by surprise. The recoil of the double fire bounced the gun over to his hand, causing it to fire a third nail…this one entered the palm of his left hand and traveled up his ring finger. I couldn’t believe my eyes when he came over to show it to me. A 3 1/4″ spike completely buried in his hand. When I first looked at his palm I thought for sure it would be poking out the back of his hand, but nope. That sucker went right up his finger like a splint.
I took him to the hospital and stayed with him. They x-rayed him right away, even before the paperwork formalities, and it was a sight to behold. Didn’t hit anything! Not a bone, knuckle or anything. Doctor blurts out “sweet!” when he sees the x-ray! He then grabbed a pair of Vice Grips and wiggles that sucker back out, after a couple shots of novacaine.
I actually had to argue with my guy (Alex is his name) over the fact that I was taking him home and not back to the job site…he says he’ll be there tomorrow. God bless him.
Bottom line is, those guns are dangerous. Alex has been on my crew for three years. He knows how to handle tools. This is the first work related injury he has had in three years. Granted, his hand was probably a little too close to the work, never the less, I mainly blame that gun. When I got back to the job I took the driver out of it, broke off the trigger and threw it in the dumpster. My other guns are Hitachi’s, I’ll stick with them from now on.
Guess we’ll be having a little safety refresher come Monday AM.
Replies
The PC nail gun will double fire if you press too hard. An example would be working on a ladder and reaching out far with the gun. You have a tendency to push hard when reaching. I have found other guns sometimes double fire. I try to bounce fire if I think the gun may double fire. My gun never double fires when bounce firing, once in a while when using it in normal mode.
Mike the gun is dangerous. I returned mine after using it for 1 hour. Holding a framing nailer tight to the work should not be dangerous, EVER! Bump nailing is fine for sheathing and subfloor but not practical for toenailing. The money one saves by using this dangerous tool surely won't cover lost wages and the doctors visit. Do yourself and anyone else that may work in your vicinity, get rid of the gun.
____________________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
I wasn't advocating bumpfiring toenails. I was trying to explain why the gun doublefired. I own the PC350, I have used mostly Senco and some Hitachi stick nailers. I like the Hitachi best with the Senco a close second. I am semi- retired and when I needed a framing nailer I bought the PC, mostly because of the price. I only use about 6 or 7 boxes of nails a year so the gun doesn't get hard use. If I were a framing contractor, the PC would not be in my toolbox. If I knew about the problem with double firing I would have spent the extra money on the Hitachi.
Mike
I'm glad to hear you mostly use Hitachi guns.
What in the #### made you go buy a porter cable, you can just look at it and tell its a p.o.s.
Tom
Two or three years ago I had a gun break on site. Happened to be one of those times where two were in the shop. This left me with one gun while framing colonials in a development for rather short money. It was a build 'em fast, build 'em cheap builder we were framing for (sometimes you gotta do whatcha gotta do). I sent a guy to the closest lumber yard with whatever cash I had in my pocket and said "bring me back a stick framer"....he did.
It's been a back up gun for the past coupla years. To be honest, I never really used it much myself to see it's shortcomings first hand. I had a Hitachi in the shop last week, so the PC made it's way back on my truck and didn't make it off again. I should've known better. Those things are downright scary. I've got four good Hitachi guns running now.
Is the Dewalt like the PC? My former boss bought alot of Dewalt. Some of it was O.K., but alot of it was junk imho.
He had sequential trigers so I couldn't bump and they double fired way to much.
A nail gun that doesn't bump nail is a stupid idea.
I used to have a hitatchi and that gun was sweet.
You could have just replaced the trigger with one designed for sequential trip. It's FREE from PC. Just ask. No more double or triple firing.
Thanks Ralph, however I am aware of that. Thing is, to be honest, I don't want a gun around that I can't bump fire. It honestly wouldn't get any use anyway. Myself and my crew all come from production framing backgrounds (if there is such a thing ;) ) and a sequential firing framing gun would simply be a nuisance. I see nothing wrong with bump-firing when it's done properly and in the right situations. The problem wasn't the operator, it was the tool.
Not to mention I have been known to have a fairly nasty temper and didn't mind dismantling and chucking a tool that bit one of my best guys!
So whats the consensis of the best framing nailer? (here we go again....lol)
By the way, I had some guy working for me for four years, and as he was pulling down a 2x6 rafter during some demo, it snapped, hit him in his nose and broke it.
The guy "refused" to stop work except long enough to stop the bleeding.
Some guys are hard to loose but when they eventually go out on their own I just know they'll do fine and others?.......well?
A round of applause and a black and tan to your guy.
Be "well"
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
FHB did a review last year, Hitachi and Max i think were the top choices.
I'll make sure Alex gets that Black and Tan....much obliged. As Wmp mentioned, FHB's concensus seems to be Max and Hitachi. I'd have to agree with that. In all honesty, I'd love to switch over to Max full head framers, the guns are just works of art. Durable, powerful, well thought out pieces of machinery. Only problem is my repair guy doesn't service them yet. He said it's too hard to get parts for them. It seems as though MaxUSA is trying too hard to keep a bigger piece of the pie by limiting who can sell them and their parts. Until they loosen up the reigns a bit I'll stick with the Hitachi's....tried and true, very faithful guns.
and das what my tool repair guy said
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I use Senco guns, but I think the situation is similar with the PC. I ordered my framer with a restrictive trigger ( as opposed to dual action), so that you must press the nose piece down on the workpiece, fire the trigger, release the trigger and repeat the process each time you fire. Now, you can't "bump" nails off if you are trying to work fast but it is alot safer. I heard of a guy who shot a couple nails into the base of his skull when a framer bounced. With roofing nailers however I do appreciate the dual action trigger. Oh yeah, Senco will send you either trigger assembly for free, its a "snap" to install.
I've been using the Paslode F350S which fires both full round and clipped head nails and is quite ergonomic and light. I chose it thanks to suggestions from the forum. Its been a satisfying, powerful quality gun that I've haven't experienced any issues with. Maybe its something you can consider adding to your quiver.
I own a PC model FR350 framer. I don't work it as hard as most carpenters, I'm an electrician that only shoots nails for personal projects and friends, but I have had no problems with the gun after several thousand nails.
Sounds like operator error to me. I can easily get this gun, and every other nail gun I have ever used with a bump trigger, to double fire. I just have to lean into the gun so as to restrain it from a normal recoil. Of course this is easily avoided by 1) using the gun properly. 2) using the fire selector switch, by the trigger and standard issue on the newer models like mine, to disable the bump fire and allow only sequential fire. This takes all of ten seconds without using any tools.
I'm sorry that your friend got hurt but it is to be expected if the wrong gun (Assuming the gun doesn't have a fire select switch), trigger ( PC will ship a sequential fire only trigger that is easy to install for free) or selector setting is used for the job at hand. I have had my gun for about six months and have had no problems once I learned to not restrain the recoil when bump firing and to use sequential fire for most framing. Flooring and sheathing still can benefit from the bump setting but care must be taken to let the gun recoil.
Nail guns are guns and are inherently dangerous. You, we, have to take great care and exercise discretion when using them. I only bump fire when I am dead sure that I have good footing and ideal working conditions. Sequential fire is safer and gives better nail placement. Some jobs, like swinging from a ladder, are best handled with a hammer. Takes a bit longer but not longer than the drive to the emergency room.
Glad to hear everything worked out for your guy. Sounded real painful but luckily no permanent damage. Be safe and use the right tools in the right manner. My FR350 came with a selector switch to change from bump to sequential. I like having the choice but it demands more responsibility on my part. If yours doesn't have one you might want to contact PC and have them ship you a sequential fire only trigger.
We have 2 Hitachis, 1 DeWalt full head shooter, the Bostich that coverts to Positive placement, and one Max coil nailer that will shoot 3 1/2" nails.
The Hitachis have been the most durable. The Bostich is a great gun and that is what we will probably buy again, the DeWalt is a great gun and I love it but one thing: it isn't very durable. The seals are leaking, and it won't shoot if you have the flush nailer set to 0. I'm not sure why. I talked to a guy at DeWalt and he said they have updated them. I love this gun and I am going to take it in to DeWalt's factory repair and ask them if they will take the gun back and give me a discount on a new one. They did that with the DeWalt radio that we broke. They let us buy a new one for $60. Good deal I thought. The DeWalt (if we get a new one) will be for pick up framing. The rafter hook is great.
I love the Max. It is built to last. We may get another one because we need 2 coil framers. I love using a coil framer for wall building. It's heavy, but you don't have to reload very often.
I've always valued your opinion on this site, however this time I feel you may have overstepped your bounds. You obviously didn't read many of the posts in this thread before responding. The gun is defective....plain and simple. Ask around (ask framers) what their opinion of the gun is and, if they have used one, they will tell you the same thing. I appreciate your concern, but your lecture on gun safety coming from an electrician who only "shoots nails for friends" kinda missed it's mark.
You mentioned that you have not had any problems with the gun after "several thousand nails". That is a few nails short of a full day for us. We will easily shoot 2500 spikes and 3000 eights in a good day running three guns with four guys on the crew. I can't tell you how often that PC malfunctions, but it wasn't often enough for me to realize it was a safety risk, until now that is. In my post you will read that I have used the gun myself, probably ran a couple thousand nails with it...not a lot by production framing standards, and never noticed anything that concerned me. Basically before this, I was as ignorant about the gun as you are now.
The point of the post was to try to stop what happened on my crew from happening on another crew, you are jumping right in the way of me trying to prevent a possible accident. Despite what I had heard about the guns, it unfortunately took Alex blasting himself for me to take the warnings seriously. I'm simply trying to get the word out.
As I stated before, Alex is a careful, safety conscience worker who is very capable of handling tools properly. Your thirty second judgement of "sounds like operator error" from how ever many thousand miles away from the incident is careless and encourages others who may own the gun to ignore my warning as I did in the past. Alex probably shoots as many nails in a week as your have the entire time you've owned the gun, judging by your description of your experience. If that gun double fires UNPROVOKED once every five or six thousand nails...well, it's too much for me. I've never actually ran a test, but I can guarantee the Hitachi's don't do it. How can I guarantee it? Experience....which is what I have that qualifies me to declare these guns as dangerous and experience is what you lack when making your three thousand mile away judgement on Alex's injury.
Sorry for lecturing, sorry for being so long winded, but I wanted to be clear. No hard feelings.
Brian
DP >>> "I know the topic has been covered before but I obviously didn't pay much attention...maybe someone else needs to hear it again."
Yeps, that is all I ever hear about these guns. The last person that should ever go near these is someone that only uses it once in awhile. The gun is, for all practical purposes, defective.
Your guy has my sympathies, maybe in 6-8 weeks he will be worth a damn, maybe in 5-10 years he will forget this ever happened. He was lucky.
I shot myself the same way your guy did . Straight on my left thumb. I was nearby a vice and was just able to pinch the jaws around the head of the nail (luckly only 2 1/2"). Closed my eyes and pulled my hand away.
I was in part responsible for the both FHB nailer reviews. Last year's and the one 6 years ago. Hitachi '83 (most popular) didn't make the cut. Old design, weak on features and only shoots a 3 1/4" nail. However the Hitachi '90 is a good nailer but a bit on the heavy side.
My favorite stick nailer is the Bostitch N88. It has several collation versions. The best one I like now is the Bostitch N88 RH MCN. The one with the convertable nose pieces for metal connectors and regular framing. However, if you only like bounce fire nailers you will have to convert the trigger to a black one since this model only stocks with a grey trigger.
Most nailers will only be available with Sequential triggers once old stock works its way through the system. If you want a bounce fire trigger you will have to special order OR buy a model that comes with a conversion kit. Part of a new ISANTA (nailer trade group) protocol for new framing nailers.
Several nailers (Max, Craftsman, Makita,...) come with switches or internal mechanizms that permit the user convert a nailer on-the-fly from bounce fire to sequential, anti double fire, or single-shot mode. This is a great option if you want safety to avoid double shots when toenailing or in tight places while still having bounce fire mode available for sheathing operations.
I actually liked the PorterCable 350 Mag nailer. I never had trouble with double fires - just wondering which model you had trouble with.
Mike Guertin
Mike, thanks for your reply. The model that shot my guy was also a 350. Its probably about 4 years old now and definetly isn't the magnesium model. I stick by the Hitachis because I just haven't come across an all around better package. The availabilty of parts is great here in MA, they are relatively cheap to fix when they do break or need maintenance, and we are just all real comfortable with them.
As I said earlier, I'd love to switch over to Max stick framers, but parts are just about impossible to come by. I heard that MaxUSA won't let just anyone sell them, something about trying to basically eliminate the "middle man", which has made it virtually impossible to maintain one. Arty, my "tool guy", comes right on site and fixes all but the most damaged tools right on site, including compressors and generators. He usually comes to the site by 1 or 2 in the afternoon if I call him in the AM. Can't beat service like that, so I'm not really looking for a new tool guy.
I have also heard good things about the new Bostich, specifically the one with the positive placement attatchment. I own a dedicated Paslode positive placement nailer now and wish I had bought the Bostich. The thing weighs a God-awful ton.
With the coming of age of framing nailers (being sold with only sequential fire triggers), I believe that the best option for me would be a gun with only one trigger and some way of internally "locking out" the bump fire at the appropriate times. It just doesn't seem realistic to me to run down to the truck after framing a roof (toe-nails galore) to grab a screwdriver or allen wrench or whatever to swap triggers...if I can even find the bump fire trigger when it's time for sheathing. Just doesn't seem realistic to me. I can't imagine I would ever use the sequential fire trigger again after purchasing and replacing the trigger.
I'm not saying I'm against sequential firing guns, only saying that in order to reap the benefits, it would have to work as fast as we do.
EDIT: I got to see you do the roofing demonstration at JLC Live in Providence RI a coupla months ago...nice job, great flashing details. Sounds goofy, but I feel like I'm talking to a celebrity right now...seriously. Guys like you, Gary Katz, Larry Haun and Will Holliday are my heros!
Edited 8/23/2003 8:49:24 PM ET by dieselpig
You being from MA - you should be able to get Bostitch parts pretty easy - they're strong in NE. There's a little shop nearby where I get my tools. Theri service dept has no trouble getting Max parts - but I have heard similar problems as you mention.
Thanks for the kind words. I'm just a regular builder/remodeler like most guys. Spent part of this past week (hot and humid as I'm sure you know) in an old attic running a range hood vent. Had to push cobwebs and mouse skeletons out of the way.
Hey, If you liked JLC/Prov you should check out the Builders Trade show in Worcester in Feb. A lot of the same guys will be there doing demos and such. http://www.builderstrade.com
Mike
Well I'll see you in Worcester then! Thanks again.
This happened the last time we were talking about framing guns. Got me more confused than before I even read the posts. so many different responses, yet the consensous seems to be PC has serious problems.
Seems most like the Hitachi and Senco best from what I gathered.
So what gun am I going to buy? Gulp.
Anddddd how many people use clipped heads vs round heads and why when framing?
Be well
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Check out the review in FHB # 145. Several companies have 'followings' (like Hitachi) but I'm not convinced their 'standard' model has much going for it. It was state-of-the-art 14 years ago but they haven't really updated the '83. Many newer nailers are lighter, more powerful and have features (like Bostitch, Makita, Senco and others).
If your local code requires round head nails - you'd better use round head. Otherwise clip heads are fine. Clip heads are fine for most uses, they just have less resistance to pull through in catostorphic (sp) events like hurricanes, earthquakes. I recommend you get a nailer with a collation angle that you can find nails locally for. No point getting a 34 degree nailer if no one carrys the nails.
mg
Andy,
Go buy a Hitachi NR83A on ebay. Can probably get one for ~$120-130, dont quote me though. Its you. You dont want to be using no new, fancy framing gun on that house of yours, you need an old classic (where you planning on useing the gun for your house project?). Better yet, get CAG to come visit you, Im sure he's got to have two or three that he'd let you have, I mean play with.
On a serious note, would your local lumber yard or supplier let you try a couple out? Or what about trying some at a rental company?
M2akita
1 framing gun, and it's PC, he can have it if he'd like, I'm thinking of getting a real one, someday soon.Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
Neil
Yeh, I heard about those PC's.....brrrrrr.
I've got a Spotnail gun and I'm ready for a real one myself.
Its very hard to grow, because it's difficult to let go of the models of ourselves in which we invested in so heavily
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Yeh its for my house but it won't be the last time I use it so....
I have the Paslode battery framer but that won't work for large jobs.
Why the Hitachi NR83A....scares me buying used nail guns but its worth a look.
I suspect after I finish this job there will be many local HO's that'll be pleading for me to do their jobs.....lol
I invited CAG but he's got school and he'll need to make lots O money to support his wife to be next year....lol.
Be nailed
andy
Its very hard to grow, because it's difficult to let go of the models of ourselves in which we invested in so heavily
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
No real reason for the Hitachi NR83A. Its just an old classic framing gun, seems like many love it. But as Mike Guertin has pointed out, it is getting a little dated ( dont think think it has changed since introduced). We use the Max clipped head at work, seem to be o.k., but sometimes feel heavy to me. I would like to try the new Bostitch.
Id let you try out my Hitachi but I dont think it would be a good sample as its been sitting for a while ( this is personal nailer, normally use our companies nailers) and probably isnt in optimum condition. But if your really interested let me know.
Think Ill walk a big circle around any PC framers I see. Scares me.
M2akita
I just a came off a weird job site where the HO hired me as one of several carpenters instead of letting me bring my own crew. He also has a lot of his own tools including a Porter Cable full-round-head stick nailer. He wasn't willing to pay for nails to fit my guns (Paslode and Senco), so I shrugged and said I'd use his. I own a PC finish gun and I like it. I also considered buying the PC clipped-head nailer last year; what decided me against it was it runs a different angle on the stick from my other guns so I'd have had to double nail inventory--a real PITA. I bought the Paslode instead.
I wasn't expecting any trouble from the PC framer. And I've been using guns for years. But the first goldurn time I used that blinkin' thing it shot two nails so fast I thought I was having hallucinations. I asked another of the carpenters who'd been there for a couple of weeks and he said you couldn't single fire it: you had to bounce it or it would double-whack every time.
So I played with it on a piece of scrap. I tried to get it to single fire. I tried over and over. Finally, the only way I succeeded was to put my finger on the very tip of the trigger and then flick the trigger instead of pulling it. Otherwise... BAM-BAM!, to quote Fred Flintstone's kid....
BTW--the other carpenter who warned me about the gun? He fired a nail from that thing through his foot the very next day. Double hit and the second nail went over the sleeper and into the metatarsal of his left foot instead.
That gun is dangerous. There should be a recall. There is no doubt in my mind. I thought it was perhaps just this HO's own gun; but after reading this post I see the bigger picture. Thanks, Diesel. Good thread. You probably saved some guy a lot of pain somewhere. Maybe even his life.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
PS--I just posted a link to this thread to Porter Cable via their web site. Maybe they'll do the right thing and recall those guns.
Edited 8/24/2003 12:31:44 AM ET by Dinosaur
Edited 8/24/2003 12:35:31 AM ET by Dinosaur
Dino
The problem that you hade with the frammer I have with a PC crown stapler, cant get it to fire one staple unless I "flip" the trigger.
Also, Bam-Bam was Freds neighbor Barneys kid. :)
Doug
I have a fairly new paslode stick nailer and it's really bad about double firing. Now that I'm on the subject my paslode 16ga. trim nailer is bad about double firing also.
I thought I heard someone say that bump firing guns where gonna be illigel.
anyone else hear that?
No one wants to hear about someone getting injured on the job. Most of us in the trades have experienced an injury of some sort or another, first hand. And we have all heard the horror stories of other workers for sure.
Agreed, Hitachi is the gun the industry goes to first. Matter of fact, it's the first framer I had my hands on! I remember asking a co-worker, (owner of the gun) how you keep it from shooting two nails! (The Hitachi) He told me his technique, and the rest is history. IE, I got the hang of it!
I have the very first (Type 1) PC-FR350. It was not what they said it was, and I got them to send me a 'Type 2' magazine. The type 1 would not hold two strips of nails like they said. I purchased the PC for the $ savings, and the fact that it will shoot Hitachi/Senco type nails available anywhere.
I am a small remodeler, and don't shoot the vast amounts of nails you guys do. I value the opinions of those with more experience than me, and learn from them what I can. Personally, I have only about 10 years experience using guns. But I can still hand nail with the best!
I own 5-PC guns. The FR 350, DA 250A, FN 250A, BN 200A, NS 150A. Personally, I have had good service from all of them. I have had double fires from the framer, but the most problematic use of it has been when using a flush nail attachement on it.
All in all, I give credit to PorterCable for trying to set new industry standards in the nail gun market. They have made other mfg's take notice. No, I don't work fore PC! LOL I'm the kind of guy who takes the Carhart emblem off my work coats, because they aren't sponsering me!
To the "Sparky" who shoots 'em for friends: It's my opinion (everybody has one) that when you lean on the gun to prevent double firing, that is exactly how they occur. If I fight the recoil, I will get a double fire every time! I let the recoil bounce off the work and don't try to hold it down. With this technique, I don't get the double fires.
If I were a framer, I'd probably buy the Hitachi!
Peace out
"Sparky" here.
Actually my comment: "Sounds like operator error to me. I can easily get this gun, and every other nail gun I have ever used with a bump trigger, to double fire. I just have to lean into the gun so as to restrain it from a normal recoil. "
Is a negative example. It is a statement noting that many nail guns can be made to double fire by not allowing the gun to recoil normally. I am not advocating people restraining the gun unless they want to live dangerously and desire a double, or in the original post, a triple fire.
I'm sorry for any confusion my lack of clarity and writing skill may have caused. Construction is inherently dangerous. No matter how much you are paid it is not enough to compensate for a single serous accident.
I ask that If you have a PC FR350, or any other nail gun for that matter, that you keep abreast of all product improvements, get them and install them. PC will give you an updated trigger free for the asking. This has been noted several times on this board and should have been common knowledge for quite a few months. Had the updated trigger been installed I feel the accident cited would not have happened and a lot of pain could have been avoided. I think of this as an tragic object lesson on proper tool use and upkeep.
I have had a PC FR350 for about 5 years and it does double fire sometimes.
As far as getting the new trigger - well, yeah, but then no more bump firing...Matt
I had a PC 350 for a couple of years and yes it did double fire at times but reading this thread just clued me in on why. I noticed the double fire always happened at the most inopportune times. Usually when hanging half a ladder or some other odd position, which caused me to hold the gun tight and probably push harder than usual.
The good news is I don’t have to worry about it any more since it was stolen last week and I pickup up a new Pasloade.
Hope I don’t get sued if the thief shoots himself on a double fire.
Used to work at a place that had a boatload of the pc round-head nailers, and the double-shot was a real problem. I thought it was because they were abused. After a few days of ba-bang ing, I bought a senco, mostly due to ease of finding parts.
They probably should be recalled, PC, if you're reading this.