I rcvd an e-mail from an internet friend that’s an assoc. editor at another publication. We’ve written and talked to each other over the last couple years about various issues within the remodeling and building industry.
I couldn’t respond to this one as I’ve not used hired day help, but thought some of you here may have. Please add any pertinent information to the topic, I’m sure background on the subject could help.
Thanks .
” I’m writing a story about day laborers – trying to assess the climate for them in different parts of the country. Do you or anybody else in your area use them”
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Replies
day labor can come from any of the commercial labor folks like "labor force" "labor ready" ect... where you pay them... and they pay the workers... you tell them what the job will be and how many and how long you will need them... they bill you for the guys/girls and they pay them... they are insured pay all the taxes ect... in my experience they exploit the workers... charge them for gloves hardhats a ride to the jobsite a ride from the job and the workers get about 40% if that of what you pay... in my experience... you get THE bottom of the bucket in terms of workers... you can send them off your job or ask for replacements if they really suck but.... you still had to deal with people that I'd worry about come'n back and steal'n my stuff...
I leased a space to one of these national chain Labor people and I wouldn't renew their lease... these people lived in my parking lot... the drug dealers waited for their return from the jobs so that they could collect money owed or sell them something... all in all I'm not impressed with em... the management was pretty good mostly retired military but none seemed to stay very long...
other options for day labor ... if i know we'll need an extra guy or 2 I let my guys know if they have friends that need a days work... I have also used friends kids for clean up work... i know there is some risk involved... and i hate that my gov makes me feel like a criminal when a homeless person asks if he can clean up around my building for $20 and i do it... even though i have a regular clean up guy... I don't know if i'm break'n any laws or not pay'n a kid $50 to sweep and rake...
maybe your artical could address where those lines are... how much can you pay someone off the street for one or 2 days labor and what laws apply? do those laws apply to family?
good luck
p
how much can you pay someone off the street for one or 2 days labor and what laws apply? do those laws apply to family?
Unless it's changed recently and I haven't heard, it's $600 per person per year. After that, you're supposed to start taking out taxes. Don't think it matters if it's family or not.http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
so if you give your kid $20 a week to keep the yard clean and don't file the proper paperwork and withhold the taxes... you are breaking federal law...
cool deal i now have an excuse not to give my kids money...
"id love to give you the $40 but federal prohibits it" sweet....
P
Technically Seeyou, you have to withold and pay taxes on any amount. The $600 threshold that you speak of is the limit at which you don't have to send out a 1099, but technically they still owe taxes if they get the 1099 or not. If they are employees, you have to have paperwork and withold taxes on any amount....I think.
jimfka (formerly known as) blue
More questions than answers:* Do Day-Laborers fit the definition of "independent subcontractors" If you are providing them tools and telling them both what and how to do the work, I think not.
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc762.html* How does workman's comp fit in if someone is working (impaired or not) and happens to hurt himself?
In Michigan, the independent contractors are covered automatically by us, the general contractor, if they haven't supplied us with a certificate of insurance. Our wc premiums are based on payroll, and subcontract labor. If the subs have insurance, and we have the cert on file when they audit us, we don't get charged for that subcontract labor bill.
So, if they get hurt, they simply file a claim as if they are working direct for us.
I don't know how it works here in TX. I'm going to find out though...
jimfka (formerly known as) blue
Worker's Comp is not mandatory here in Texas. We carry it and expect my subs to have it as well. Those that don't sign an state form stating they are subs and realize they are not covered by any WC.
What happens when someone that is not covered gets hurt? How do they pay for the hospitalization?fka (formerly known as) blue
I am guessing it comes out of their own pockets. I am going to call my insurance agent and see what they say.
and i hate that my gov makes me feel like a criminal when a homeless person asks if he can clean up around my building for $20 and i do it...
Worse yet...how would you feel if you turned a homeless guy down if he offered you some help? I know how that feels...because I did it one day. A homeless guy came up and asked if he could get some work. I didn't have a dollar in my pocket to pay him and I knew I couldn't write him a check...so I just said I didn't need any help.
I musta kicked myself a hundred times for saying no. Obviously, I'm still kicking myself...
The problem with paying the homeless guys is if you pay them too much, they'll od on the booze. If you pay them just enough to get some food and booze, you're in violation of federal payroll laws LOL.
jimfka (formerly known as) blue
I know what you mean. I dont give them money. usually will ask them if their hungry and buy them some food.Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged.
Ronald Reagan /Users/ronaldteti/Desktop/Picture 1.png
Thanks for your response. Hope to see more replies to this topic.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Things went off topic for a moment there Cal, and I forgot to give my response to the OQ.
I've tried using the "Labor Ready" type places several times for clean up crews, but when they show up, they decide humping roof tear off into a dumpster is beneath them or in one case, the guy just disappeared after about an hour. He was the only one I ever got any work out of and I was gonna run him off when I got back to the ground. I guess he sensed it.
I've had better luck with "friends of friends" or cousins of other help. Dale came to me as a summer laborer when he was 19 (his dad was my rugby coach in college) and we've been together for 13-14 years.
Josh was an aquaintance of another guy on the crew. He started as a laborer and he's been with me for 10+ years.
Chalio was a friend of a friend. He's been around 5-6 years.
Mike also played Rugby - he's been around off and on almost as long as Dale.
And then there's the internet - right here's where I found Duane.http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
And then there's the internet - right here's where I found Duane.
Win some, lose some.
;)
jt8
"Those who wish to sing always find a song." -- Swedish Proverb
have used Labor Ready a coupla times ... still have an active account there.
and when I lived in Tx ... for big carpet cleaning jobs ... we'd drive the boss's pick up to the designated area and grab a bed full.
the "probably illegal" guys at the day labor pick up point ... always worked great.
it's been hit or miss with the labor ready guys ... I've used them here back in Pgh.
one thing I've nocited ... as I usually call the store closest to the job ....
when I'm working in the fancy neighborhoods ... I get skinny white kids with rotting teeth ... aka ... crack heads.
when I'm working closer to home in the city ... I get a mix of young and old, white and black and everything else ... and 10 outta 10 times I get harder workers.
hard to really judge a guy in a days work ... but I think the city guys are more honest too ... compared to the "rick kid gone bad" crack heads.
with any ... I never leave them unattended in the house. I tell them all up front ... I don't trust anyone ... so if they're easily offended ... drive the hell back home.
my morning speach also starts with ... U touch any of my stuff ... or the customers stuff ... etc ... I will beat U to death with a framing hammer. I've had a couple at different times just fell em to F off and leave ... which is better.
at labor ready ... U can call and "fire" them. Do that and U don't have to pay.
I've never had to do that ... as the aholes are prety quick to see I'm an ahole and they leave pretty quick on their own.
I always have a specific task in mind. Have only hired when I have what I think is a full days work ... then I tell them ... here's what has to be done. I see it as 2 guys for a decent full day ... 8 hrs. So that's what I'll sign your card for.
if U decide to bust a$$ and knock it out in 4 or 5 hrs ... it's still done and I still budgeted for that full 8 ... so the earlier U get done ... the earlier we all go home.
and like I said ... they're never left alone ... which means I'm there too.
I think I get more respect by being there too.
I've had really good results.
usually they tell me to write down their names and ask for them next time. Coupla summers ago ... I had 2 guys I worked with off and on all summer. Got to the point with them that I'd "dust proof: the house ... really well ... like with 1/2 ply so it was renta-guy proof too .. and leave them unattended.
ended up trusting them enough to hope they're not break out a screw gun and rob the place.
never would even think of that with the crack heads up north.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
It's been a few years since I've hired day laborers but I wouldn't hesitate, when I need a strong man with some stamina. In every city where I've worked it's been easy to find the main spot to hire.
I've never had a problem, getting a day's work out of anyone I've hired but I always tell the guys who run up to my truck exactly what they'll be doing and for how many hours. The one who seems most responsive and able is the one I pick.
I've never allowed a day laborer to enter a client's home. I consider that a violation of trust. So I only use those men for outside work.
On the other hand, I treat all employees with the same respect I'd like to receive. For example, I offer day laborers breakfast before we start and lunch too, both on me. In my experience, breaking bread together forms a simple bond which makes working together much easier.
Sadly, a lot of these guys can't overcome alcohol and/or drug dependencies so they're one day wonders. That's OK. I'm not in the rehab business, though I'll do what I can when asked. That's only happened once, and he couldn't maintain for very long.
Thank you all again. I believe this is the response that he's after. Actual practice as far as where you go to find the labor and how it's worked for you. I'm providing him with a link to this thread and wouldn't be surprised if he contacted some of you vial email here (if it's working) to further expound on the topic.
Who knows, you might end up in print.............even more enticing with the paring down of Breaktime in the mag.
I encourage others who've used the services or "found" day laborers to let him know about it.
thanks.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
The Day laborers I immediately thought of were the Home Depot kind. Hand em $40 and get a roof torn off or whatever. Do Homeowners mostly use them? I have heard that contractors drive by to pick up a few extras.
We use Labor Ready sparingly. Only if we get a job that would take our men a long, long time. Muddy, muck, raining and vertical. Something that is difficult. Then you just want to throw manpower at it. Get it done quick and get everyone home, safe. Those difficult jobs are a beast in the afternoon. The stack of trash just doesn't get any smaller.
Or if a driver is on light duty. Generally he can drive but no lifting. Then we get a Labor Ready guy and have him hump for a day or two.
Absolutely have to supervise at all times. Never leave 1 alone. Even to sweep a house while the truck goes to the recycle center. One room will be done. And labor may or may not be there.
Edited 10/8/2007 6:12 pm ET by Scrapr
Thanks to you and the Capn. Appreciate you two taking the time to respond.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I worked with one guy enough that I would call him a friend. One day we went to McDonalds for lunch and I ordered first and noticed that the guy taking the order was Latino and a homosexual. So my Mexican friend walks up to order but before he ordered he point blank loudly called the guy a puto right in his face. Having made sure the guy knew where my friend stood on this issue he ordered his lunch. funny stuff. One thing about my Mexican friends, they let you know what was on their mind.
Well, in my specific part of Central Texas we have some competing influences. Which complicates the labor situation for all employers.
But, in my local experience, it's dicey either way. You go get a truckload of eager types off a street corner, they won't have tools or gear at all--but will be eager.
You go to a labor shop and they may have gloves, hard hats, etc., but they thend to not be eager. Or they are half eager and half not. They are usually under-happy with the pay scheme, too--so they will come around offering all sorts of "deals" to get hired on directly (or will offer various deals for book-cooking).
Either group usually winds up needing near-constant supervision, which is an expensive way to save costs.
I am a day laborer person so a prospective from my point of view , I stand in front of H.D. and ask if any one needs help as they exit the store. If i do get the oppertunity to work I give all I have to give because I ask a fair wage and I dont want to spoil it for the next person who asks for work. I find that the pay is better then working for someone full time and I learn so much, seems every one has a diffrent way of looking at the same problem. On average i spend a few weeks asking for work handing out my number and work for half a year or so . with that said is any one looking for help in the Tacma area ? Ill give you smart, hard work for a fair wage >
Thanks jj, a different perspective.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Thats why I love this site. Nothing surprises me.
jimfka (formerly known as) blue
How bout those Central Division Champs Jim?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Hehehe...congrats.
I was very dissapointed that the Tigers couldn't catch them Indians. You guys from Ohio are starting to get on my nerves: First...UM can't touch OSU, then the Cavs hand the Pistons their hats....now the Indians ruin a beautiful baseball season!
Stopppppp ittttttt!!!!!!
You know the old saying....."Wait till next year".
The Tigers had some unbelievable bad luck with injuries. I'm looking forward to seeing how the young pitchers will transition and takeover the reins. I doubt that Rogers and Todd Jones will be back, but you never know. They already moved Guillen (gimpy legs) to first basee and they probably will either be bringing a free agent, so I'm curious about that.
Good luck in the World Series.
jim fka (formerly known as) blue
i have heard about the 600 dollar "casual labor". But i know i would have to have workers comp on anyone i hired , they could break there back in the first hour and its on me if im not covered by WC
i have heard about the 600 dollar "casual labor". But i know i would have to have workers comp on anyone i hired , they could break there back in the first hour and its on me if im not covered by WC
Amen! That's the first intelligent thing I've seen in this thread regarding anything other than "Labor Ready" guys.
Last I checked, this board was full of "professionals", but what I'm seeing here is a bunch of guys willing to risk their businesses and potentially their homes and personal possessions to save a few bucks and make life a little easier. Do your clients realize that you're putting people to work at their homes who aren't covered by your WC and GL insurance????
I realize that finding good help is tough- especially when it's needed on a sporadic basis, but hiring guys from in fromt of Home Depot is not only assinine for the liability reasons, but also just fuels the illegal immigrant problem in this country. And yes, I realize that not everyone standing in front of HD is illegal, but lets face it- a good percentage of them are.
<Stepping down off soapbox>
Bob"Brilliance!! That's all I can say- Sheer, unadulterated brilliance!!" Wile E. Coyote- Super Genius
<Stepping down off soapbox>
You're pretty far off the mark Bob. Why do you presume that no one who hires casual labor has insurance to cover them? And who said anything about hiring undocumented labor? Or getting them from in front of HD?
Well, posts 2, 5, 13, 14, 15, and 17 all talk about labor from sources other than the Labor Ready type places, and discuss things like paying a guy $50 to clean up aroud the site, etc. Are you telling me that if you read through these posts, it's your take that all of these guys are taking SS #'s, reporting the hours to their WC carriers and ensuring that these say labors are covered? Let's get real.........
Bob"Brilliance!! That's all I can say- Sheer, unadulterated brilliance!!" Wile E. Coyote- Super Genius
Bob, when you have a wc policy and gl policy, every worker is covered the instant they step onsite. If they trip over a twig and break their neck, the ambulance will be called and they will get medical attention and disability and the insurance company will pay. It might take some sorting out of the paperwork later, but the worker is covered.
Now, if you want to argue that the insurance companies are getting cheated out of their premiums, you'll have a good point. From my point of view, the cheating seems to be quite a bit widespread in reverse of that. At least that's what I think when I send the check in and watch the workers collecting for insane stuff and the insurance company turning a blind eye because they know they'll eventually get it from the contractors anyways.
I've never hired a "day" laborer, but I've hired plenty of people that lasted less than a day LOL!
jim
edited for spillun
fka (formerly known as) blue
Edited 10/9/2007 6:36 pm ET by Jim_Allen
Jim-
I agree that "workers" are covered in the case of "employees" which is a term that Hudson used in his post, which tells me he's likely collecting paperwork on these guys. The problems occur when the "worker" is a day laborer who's last name you don't even know, who may not have an ID that you would have normally photocopied if he was an "employee", etc.
Say the guy walks on your site, starts working, and 30 minutes later falls in a ditch and is knocked unconscious when he hits his head. The ambulance comes, they rush him to the hospital, and he spends the next three days in the ICU as Jim Doe, because he's got no ID and you don't know his name. Meanwhile, you're insurance company wants his "paperwork" and info so they can start processing the claim that's inevitably coming. Bit of a problem, no?
All I'm trying to say is that any article that may get written based on the posts in this thread should definitely be based on "day laborers" from Labor Ready, or at a minimum should discuss all of the things that need to be done to make the use of day labor legit. The last thing the residential remodeling industry needs is any press that gives it a black eye, and an article about "stop at the local HD, grab a few of the stronger lookin' guys, and pay them $50 and lunch for a hard day's work" would be just that.....
Bob"Brilliance!! That's all I can say- Sheer, unadulterated brilliance!!" Wile E. Coyote- Super Genius
Say the guy walks on your site, starts working, and 30 minutes later falls in a ditch and is knocked unconscious when he hits his head. The ambulance comes, they rush him to the hospital, and he spends the next three days in the ICU as Jim Doe, because he's got no ID and you don't know his name. Meanwhile, you're insurance company wants his "paperwork" and info so they can start processing the claim that's inevitably coming. Bit of a problem, no?
It is a problem. I acknowledged that in my first post. It's a paperwork problem for the employer. When the guy wakes up, he'll supply his name, address and fake SS and he'll be covered forever.
Is this supposed to happen that way? No. In the corporate world, the secretary has the employee fill out paperwork and everything is peachy. Out in the other world, there is no secretary so it's very possible that guys would start without filling out papers. I've done that myself when I was a one crew guy doing everything. Yes I was a cowboy and I'd apologize but I was too busy struggling to make ends meet and if I stopped ten minutes to get paperwork out of the truck, I'd lose another $100 when the other guys were chopping an expensive microlam too short.
Basically Bob, I guess I'm trying to say that using day laborers isn't the end of the world. Yes they are working under the table, but they do have WC coverage, if the contractor has coverage. They may not be reporting the wages, but they certainly would if the guy got himself sent to the hospital.
I'm just trying to point out that the use of day laborers does not automatically equate to more risk for the homeowners. You might have a valid point in your distaste for using day laborers, but your claim that it puts the homeowners at risk just isn't true. The law covers the workers, even if he hasn't properly filled out his paperwork....IF....the contactor has a WC policy. That's the key question.
Now, lets talk about paying a day laborer $50 cash. It's legal. Just becasue a contractor hands the guy a fifty, doesn't make it an illegal transaction. The day laborer is required to report that cash income. The contractor can enter the amount in his books as a legitimate deduction. He would be required to have the data though. I'd suggest that all contractors have a form that the day laborers fill out that included all the necessary legal information. If they won't sign, ask the next guy in line.
I'm thinking that the day laborers want to bring home some bacon too Bob. When I was a kid, the black guys used to hang out at 8 and Gratiot to get day work in my city. They were workers and I admire an respect them.
jimfka (formerly known as) blue
hire'n the guy from in front of home depot is no different than hire'n the guy who lives next door kid... there are risks in everything you do... maybe i put everything i have at risk by my actions... but.. such is life... if i lose it all.... i can get it back... try have'n as much fun as me every day of your life... and stop worry'n dude
p
Pony and Jim-
I'm not saying that it doesnt happen every day- I know it does, and plenty of people do it- that isn't the part that really bothers me (though it does somewhat). What concerns me is the thought of an article getting written that may end up making it seem as though this underground economy is an accepted practice in the residential construction industry. As I said before, that's a black eye the industry doesn't need.
OK, no more soapboxin' for me on the subject....
Bob"Brilliance!! That's all I can say- Sheer, unadulterated brilliance!!" Wile E. Coyote- Super Genius
I kinda think it is the accepted practice maybe not with one trade guys. (i do know plumbers that when the only way is to hand dig 40ft... they use day labor... they don't keep hand digger on full time staff... so they pick up 2 guys for $60 ea (going rate here for 6-7hr and you buy em lunch)
i think it is common practice when you need a few strong backs to load or unload... you hire someone... if it's for the day or 2 days around here it's called "day labor" you don't usually do a background check... and for the most part you don't leave em alone...
I don't see a huge issue that would give anyone a black eye...
on point... if i'm not going to ask for documentation from a white guy or black guy would it be PC to ask for it from a brown skinned guy who might be hispanic?
p
Why would you not ask for documentation from a white or black guy?Everyone that works on our site who is not an employee of a sub fills out a W4 and I9 form. This way, I know that I've done what I'm supposed to according to the law. Sure, it's possible that something may happen and we get named in a suit along with the homeowner, but having your bases covered goes a long way towards preventing problems.I know it seems extreme, but the rules are the rules. The IRS clearly states that all employees are supposed to fill out the I9 and W4 forms and the employers are to withhold and report the income. Calling the workers independent contractors does not hold water.I know you work on your own projects, so I will let you make your own decisions. I could not, in good conscience, subvert the rules while working on other's homes. There's a good chance that nothing will ever happen, but who knows when our next accident will come about?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
on point... if i'm not going to ask for documentation from a white guy or black guy would it be PC to ask for it from a brown skinned guy who might be hispanic?
Well, if you don't care about doing the right thing with regard to the paperwork for the white or black guy, I'm assuming you wouldn't care if the brown guy was illegal either, so why bother, right? ;)
Bob"Brilliance!! That's all I can say- Sheer, unadulterated brilliance!!" Wile E. Coyote- Super Genius
when a guy comes up and asks nice " man is there any work i can do around here to make a few dollars"
yeah i'm going to do the wrong thing... by finding him a garbage can and letting him fill it a few times... not just from my property but both sides of the street and the curbs ... do i report the $20 $25 i give the guy out of my pocket for a few hours work... can't say i do... let me burn in hell
I.... unlike many..... don't care where he's from or how he got where he is... I don't care what he needs the money for or where it goes... just like whoever pays you has no right to know what you do with money earned.... somethings just aren't in my world of need to know facts...
i can remeber the kid in school jump'n up and down to let the teacher know who spilt the milk.... then and now i never wanted to be that kid
p
There aren't many Mexicans available on the corner of Cincinnati, but there are plenty of "beggars". I placed beggars in parenthesis because I'm convinced that begging is their job. I few years ago, I noticed a thirty-something woman standing on the side of the highway exit ramp holding a sign that read "Homeless. Anything helps. God bless" and all blather. A wave of generosity washed over me (probably a coffee high) and I pulled over wanting to get that "i helped somone out" feeling. I told her I'd pay at the end of the day in cash ($10/hr.) She came with us. She worked for the afternoon (cleaning/painting gutters) and I paid her $45. I gave her my card, and told her we'd be here in the morning if she was interested in working again. The next day came, and no show. I went to Home Depot, and guess who I saw standing on the same corner?! In other words, begging pays more, even if I have to stand on a corner looking pathetic.
One last thought: I wish we could let the illegals stay and kick out all the free loaders. People who risk their lives and freedom to have a place to earn a living wage would be a good lesson to all the "Beggars" in this county. Those immigrants know what REAL poverty is, and are not afraid to work hard...