I have a deadbeat client-has owed me over $1000.00 for more than three months. He has no complaints re the job and has always paid before (various jobs over the last five years). No contract on this job…just T&M to help him out of a bind. Now he ignores mailed bills and phone messages. Anyone have experience in Small Claims Court or have any creative collection ideas?
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You can take him to court, but time spent to do so is money lost you won't recover. IMO a nice call asking if there is a problem, reminding him that you would like to remain on good terms and not have to go to court over this oversight, will probably get you paid.Who knows if he reads his mail? He may have a good reason, so give him a call.
ya, that's the best approach in a situ like that.
Could be a million things going on there. Family hardships out of control, lost mail, etc. so a levelheaded personal call mining for info is in order.
On the other hands it wouldn't be the first time meth or something turns a person inside out.
Contractor down the street had an profitable excavating business up and running for many years then in a short time he's hounding people to buy his equipment as he defaults on his home and loses it, leaves the wife and moves in with the young 20 yearold mistress.
Next thing will be his characteristics will have facial tics, a pale countenance and paranoid eyes looking overhis shoulder in a 1000yard stare. Sad but true across the country.
Hope that's not the case there.
Man, it sucks having people owe you money.
Best.
Peace on.
Next thing will be his characteristics will have facial tics, a pale countenance and paranoid eyes looking overhis shoulder in a 1000yard stare. Sad but true across the country.
Hope that's not the case there.
Man, it sucks having people owe you money.
Sux worse being the guy you just described. That c##p is the worst poison to hit this country since crack.
The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
yep, horrible to see people you once knew well and prosperous hit the skids with little hope of stopping the slide.
Other day ran into a guy from the old grade school prob 5 years younger than me.
Means in his late 40s and there he was looking every bit of 70 and I shid you not.
Freakin' alarming. Had heard he always enjoyed the party circuit but man, what a price to pay.
Peace on.
About all you can do is stay outta their way and keep 'em in your prayers. Hopefully they'll live long enough, that garbage quits doing for them what it once did. Then, and only then, can they begin to look for a solution that never quits working.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Try a collection agencey. From what I understand it is great they professionally harass him into paying and take a percentage if they collect. Even if you don't collect (deadbeats usually build up a tolerance to collection agencies)you will know that he has been sufficiently harassed over it.
As for a lien... Liens have a bit of process involved and it has to be filed within 4 months of your job's last day. Then you have to follow up on the filling with letters to both parties and that has to be filed. There is a chance for error plus it is good for nothing until you close, or he sells. You have to close within one year of filing the lien or file an extension otherwise you can't foreclose on it. I use an attorney to file them and it is about $350 to file. It is not like once you file a check appears for what you are owed. You still have to appear in court, win, and then have the sheriffs department collect.
The incentive there is that I know one person who needed to collect a couple of thousand and in the end he was awarded several thousand and was payed after they repossessed the guy's wife's car.
The collection agency is very limited in what they can go.All the debtor has to say is leave me alone and if they contact them again then they can endup paying big bucks.Howver, the creditor has much more leeway in what they can do.Also the details of when and how liens can be placed varies drastically from state to state..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Interestingly some mortgage documents state that the mortgage properties cannot have a lien registered or the mortgage is in default.
When the bank threatens to foreclose that might wake them up
No contract on this job...
You are probably screwed. No contract - nothing to enforce in court.
Hope not - I do a large share of my work on a verbal agreement, but mostly with past customers.
Knock on wood - I have had very little in losses due to verbal agreements.
Terry
If there's no contract he might be screwed but probably not. The amount is pretty nominal and if the client should have been aware the work was going on or has looked at the work either shortly after it was completed or while it was going on there's an implied acceptance of the working arrangement. If that's the case and the OP can prove the T&M charge was within the normal $$ range, then the judge will probably rule in his favor.
The OP also indicates there's a history of this kind of arrangement with this guy so that's in his favor.
Runnerguy
it might be true where he lives but, in NY state any work over 500 has to be in writing.
I think you are confused about NY law. Under the Uniform Commercial Code, and the corresponding NY statute any sale of goods transaction over $500 requires a writing. Personal service contracts are not covered by that section. At least that's what they taught me when I was in law school. :-)
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
contractors in ny are covered by specific home improvement laws. if you don't believe me, check with nys attorny generals office.
Frammer52- I know what laws contractors are covered by. Don't need to call the AG. I was licensed as a lawyer in NY in 1984, practiced there until last year when I moved to VA. Still licensed by the way - Registration #1915818. A good part of my practice was representing architects and engineers in construction litigation.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
with a great deal of respect, i suggest you look it up. i love it when two lawyers can't agree.
nys attorny generals office. consumer tips... reguarding home improvement contracts.. all home improvement over $500... if a contract is required, then any home improvement over $500 most have contract. hmmmm. maybe a defense if someone says you owe me $1000. hmmmmm... not the first time nys law conflicts, is it. i am not a lawyer, but have been advised by my lawyer, if i want to collect, i must have a contract...
Thank heavens lawyers aren't allowed in small ciaims court. Jays...
Splintergroupie -
Actually, where I was, lawyers are allowed in small claims court, if there's only 1. If there are lawyers on both sides then the case goes to regular day court. The SC jurisdictional limit is $5,000, which in my book is worth paying attention to. If I were arguing over that amount as a litigant, I would want to make sure that the case was well presented by somebody that knew what they were doing and had some legal training. That's my personal opinion. Like construction work, it's not always as easy as it looks.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Interesting. I'd looked at a NY SCC site that said, "The Small Claims Court is an informal court where corporations, partnerships and associations can sue for money only, up to $5,000.00 without a lawyer."New York State Unified Court System
Judith S. Kaye, Chief Judge
Jonathan Lippman, Chief Administrative Judge
September, 1996 http://www.courts.state.ny.us/ithaca/city/webpageguidetosmallclaims.htmlMaybe it's specific to Ithaca?
In some disputes we just hear one side of the story. I have no idea what the other side is so I am not in any position to judge.
At one time I was considered a "Deat beat client" by a finishing contractor. His company did outstanding work. He had a contract to chemically strip and refinish my fireplace mantel and my kitchen cabinets. The cabinet doors looked great when they came out of the shop but after a week there was a pink glow around some of the door knobs.
I wanted it fixed before I was going to pay the remaining $1000. The person who was collecting the money (bosses wife) told her side of the story to the boss. I tried to explain my side of the story but the boss refused to take my call. Their company threatened to take me to small debts court at which point I talked to my Lawyer.
My Lawyer talked to the Contractor. The Contractor agreed to fix my problem (first time he heard about the pink glow on my kitchen cabinet doors) provided that I deposit $1000 in trust with my Lawyer.
As it turned out, the finishing shop was doing some finishing work for the local football team (red colors). The finishing shop used the same chemical solution to strip my kitchen cabinet doors. Some of the red dye got absorbed into the wood where the holes had been drilled for the door knobs and the hinges. My doors were refinished a light creamy color. The red dye started migrating back through the light creamy finish. Looked great when the doors left the finishing shop. Did not look so great two weeks later.
The Dead beat client (me) got his doors refinished, my Lawyer released the money when I got my doors. My Lawyer told me the story about what had happened to my doors. Not sure what the boss said to his wife. I did not get any apologies from the finishing contractor.
this is typical nys court. lawyers are allowed on only one side. if both have lawyers, must go to supreme court. nys laws, courts are difficult to understand abd i grew up and still live here. i could give you several conflicting laws on the book and in some cases being enforced.
Well, Kencarp doesn't seem to be big on communication, so unless he's in NY state i guess it's a moot point.
Guys,
I appreciate all the advice. I'm a licensed GC in MD, suburban DC. I've been doing this all my life and am 61 now. A sole proprietor still swinging a hammer. This particular client is a man I have done work for...always with a contract...for more than five years. He has a apartment he rents out, the guy he hired to spiff it up after being trashed by the former renter was doing a poor job so I got a call. Need doors hung plus other work done quickly; I started the next day...no contract involved. No good deed goes unpunished. I have mailed him reminders, left one message on his and one on his wife's cell phone (No Harrassment) and here I am. Never been stuck before. Now I am PO. Still pondering my next move. My wife suggests a house call with her in tow...as a witness and to keep things under control.
If you have any concerns whatsoever of being able to control your temper in person, going to the deadbeat's home seems ill-advised. Your wife might not make a credible witness to what really happened if he files an assault charge, y'know. Best of luck from the Breaktime Legal Aid High Society (BLAHS) and welcome to the forum. <G>
What was the owner's definition of doing a poor job with the first guy? Was the first guy being paid?
Seems landlords are always doing a moneyshuffle.
Peace on.
Matt, I received that fax: thanks.It appeared that it was enforceable without any conditions. That would seem to mean that even if he paid the construction contract, you could still demand that the note be paid again! Do you have some language in the subcontractor agreement that explains this note? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim
The note requires a voluntary signature. I don't force them into it. When they owe me money and realize that this note is actually better for everyone they sign it.
If the note was signed at the beginning of the job it should have a clause for payment. Any discrepencies can be sorted out by check book ledgers or anything that documents payments.
The one I sent you was signed after 6 months of chasing the guy, he answered all my calls never avoided me. He just didn't have it. So I gave him a note prior to the one you got for a 6 month extension. Once again he couldn't pay at the deadline and I threw on $1,000 interest and gave him his last extension.
He didn't have it again so off to the lawyer I went. Papers were filed and a judgement was given to me. He didn't contest in one bit, he even called my lawyer to tell him that I was owed every penny. Now with a judgement I have 10 years to collect. I don't have to chase him, all I have to do is call my lawyer and figure out where to squeeze the money from. Garnishments, repossesion, anything allowed by law.
With successful trials of this I have started to offer it up front. Most sign it once it's explained to them. They see it's benefits and agree it's not a scam.
I have no subcontractor agreement, GC's offer it to me and I usually walk. They are filled with ways of nonpayment to me. Unreasonable charges and other things I don't agree with. If as people, real human beings can't come to a verbal agreement face to face then I don't like being any part of it.
Sure at times I have to do something that they thought was agreed upon, but I love my job and all the trials and tribulations that come with it. If I have to bend a few extra nails to make the one that hired me happy, so be it.
Woods favorite carpenter
Sure at times I have to do something that they thought was agreed upon, but I love my job and all the trials and tribulations that come with it. If I have to bend a few extra nails to make the one that hired me happy, so be it.
I freaking love your attitude man!!!The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
You caught me on a good day. ;) Woods favorite carpenter
thats what we did in "the good old days".
Nowadays contracts are broken whether they are verbal or written.
I collect every two weeks for work that is completed or materials delivered. At least I do not get into big amounts. Also on some I collect for materials up front or let the customer buy it. Less paperwork.
No, the site you came up with is essentially the same rule for the entire state - 5K limit, no lawyers required. In any other court, a business organization like a corp, or LLC must be represented by counsel. So, in Small Claims, the law cuts them a break and lets them represent themselves. Now, if somebody wants to be represented, or if they have counsel like in an insured auto accident, then the judge (often a specially trained lawyer) allows the lawyer to be there. Depending on the judge/hearing officer, the lawyer could be important or meaningless. They can basically shut the lawyer down. If two lawyers show up, they usually kick it out of Small Claims. If the case is heard by a hearing officer, there's no record (stenographer), and either party can appeal the decision. On a retrial, it goes before a real judge. Rules of evidence are pretty dicey in SC, don't waste time trying to be too technical. Courts don't like it. OTOH, they hate people that go in unprepared wanting to tell long stories or harass the other side. Pretty much "state your case and go home, we'll mail you a decision."
Frammer said it automatically goes to Supreme Court, if it's kicked out of SC. This isn't exactly accurate. The small Claims court is part of a lower court of limited jurisdiction-read small cases, below Supreme. On Long Island, it goes to the District Court which only hears cases up to (?) $15,000. In NYC, it goes to the Civil Court, which had jurisdiction to $25,000. I don't know which court it is in Ithaca, but it's almost certainly lower than Supreme*. (As far as the $500 limit on oral contracts, that may be a local law in Ithaca. I'm 95% certain it's not statewide, unless they just passed it recently.)
I've had a few cases in Small Claims over the years, and I also sat as a hearing officer for 2 years. Some "judges" take their roles more seriously than others. Some make their minds up independant of the law and the evidence. That's why it's appealable.
Overall, Small Claims is a good thing. Not perfect. Costs about $25 in the first instance. Gives people a way to resolve disputes in a more civil manner and lets everyone have their "day in court". Avoids most fistfights, tho I've seen them in the hallway too. :-)
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
*Edit - Couldn't stand the suspense any more so I looked it up. According to an old lawyer's diary, Ithaca has a "City Court". Money jurisdiction is $15,000. Small claims is part of it.
Edited 1/20/2008 10:51 pm ET by DonK
Wow, that was thorough! If i ever get arrested or sued, i hope you aren't representing the other guy, LOL! One of the boons of SC Court i've always accepted as standard was the no-lawyer rule, so i'm happy to have been educated today.
I've liked the no-nonsense way i've seen SC handled in both CA and MT. I never went to court unless i figured things were clearly in my favor, and i learned early that judges like as few facts as possible on which to base a decision...and pictures were even better. From my observations, a lot of evil energy can be dissipated, as you said, by just allowing folks their day in court.
A dispute i had with my neighbors ended when they had to replace my culverts they'd cut to pieces with a road-grader, but i think the threats i heard issued to other of their enemies in the neighborhood (they were not pleasant people!) never materialized toward me simply bec they had to act as though they were adults in court and the judge let them have their say. Maybe the process served to focus their animosity on the judge instead of me. Whatever...i got my money for new culverts when the judge 'suggested' they give me a check before leaving the courtroom...not actually The Law, but it suited me just fine. <g>
Edited 1/21/2008 2:48 am by splintergroupie
Filing a lien is usually pretty inexpensive.
You could go the small claims route but just remember there's no cash register at the courthouse. Having a judge rule in your favor and collecting are two entirely different things.
Runnerguy
Could be he is strapped fr cash. If you don't take credit cards, you could set up a Paypal account to accept credit cards. He might be able to pay you with a credit card but not cash. He would need internet access to do this, of course.
It costs about 3%. But costing you $30 beats being owed $1000.
At first I think you are limited to cashing out $500 per month from paypal but again, better to wait on paypal and know the money is there than to have this guy owing you $1000.
Paypal will transfer the funds to your deposit account at your bank upon your request, takes 1-3 days to process that side of it.
I have it available for my business and also have an account set up for our cub scout pack. Some people prefer to pay for things online than write a check and it has worked well for those folks.
I've done the Small Claims route a few times, both in CA and MT. If you have a verbal contract and some proof of the work being done (receipts, pix, previous requests, etc.), the odds are vastly in the plaintiff's favor of gaining a favorable ruling. It's always necessary to send the deadbeat a bill and letter beforehand, with proof they received it. A process server is not necessary, but a certified or registered receipt from mailing is. An alternative is to hand-deliver the letter with a witness, but that gets messy. When i mail a demand letter, it states that i am doing it preparatory to filing in small claims court.
Winning is no guarantee you'll get your money right then, though most people will pony up if it gets to that stage and they know you're serious about collecting. If they don't, however, you can garnish wages, have the sheriff collect rents, or a number of alternative avenues, without further court appearances.
If these remedies aren't available, you can make them reappear in court and disclose their assets. If they refuse to appear for that court date, the court takes it personally and issues a warrant for their arrest, at which point they have bigger problems than you. I got some college boys who'd damaged my house to take the court decision seriously when they realized they could be arrested and jailed for going skiing instead of going to court. <G>
No lawyers are allowed in small claims court, so the costs are normally a small filing fee. There are no punitive damages or court costs assessed, unlike municipal or district courts. There is a maximum the court can adjudicate, but your $1000 is likely within that. Small claims court was designed exactly for your kind of problem. Good luck.
Next time you demo a bathroom dump it in his driveway. :>) Unless this guy is having financial trouble (and i'd have hoped he would've told you) he sounds like a piece of garbage.
Just pay your bills people.
Call him from a payphone and threaten to shoot him if he doesn't pay.
Then when he doesn't pay, go over to his house and shoot him.
Bet once the word gets around you wont have anymore deadbeat accounts.........
be waitin for somebody else to try this first......
Naive but refreshing !
I think you are on to something there.
I thought Mark H's dead possum was also a good idea. Woods favorite carpenter
I have NEVER done any of this stuff but have heard of it.... Call 6 in the morn 12 at night,,,,, Call where he works or stop by and say loudly wheres that deadbeat.... Park your truck in front of his house and leave it there...... stop by after he leaves for work and ask the wife for the money......send over a free pizza at 10 at night.... Show up at his door sat and sunday morn carrying his paper and say you were just driving by,
what does small claims cost in your area?
here ... I think sueing for $1000 at the magistrates would run maybe $100 in "court costs" ... U pay when U file ... and get it all back when U win.
also ... contracts don't have to be written. A verbal contract is still a contract.
just harder to prove.
do U have anything to prove U did work there and he still owes?
did he make other payments.
reciepts.
daily log.
even copies of letters and/or emails help.
U just gotta show the magistrate U did work and money is owed.
one tip ... send one last collection letter ... send it registered/certified mail. Make sure they have to sign for it.
and write that letter just as you'd like the magistrate to read it.
be nice ... be specific.
paraphrase the agreement, work done and monies already paid. Include dates and addresses ...
now ... in court ... if he signed ... means he had a change to read ... so now U can ask the magistrate to read it ... I had a similar letter entered into "evidence" by a magistrate against the deadbeats lawyers wishes.
I also learned ... magistrates don't like lawyers complicating their courtrooms.
be organized, have paperwork ... and be honest. It's worked for me.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
In MI, that contract would have to be in writing if it exceeds a certain amount...I think $800 (it's been many years since I took the test). Without a written contract, there is no basis for filing and no chance at winning. Additionally, by stating in court that work was done without a contract, the plaintiff would be creating evidence that he was illegally working without a contract and be subject to prosecution! The good ole boy handshake works...as long as the buyer pays. Theres no court relief if he doesn't though. The carpenters used to be considered crazy and that created an incentive to pay. I remember the days when we'd see frames burned to the ground. Every state is different. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Contractor was owed money for a long time. Called customer at 3 AM
asked "Wathcha' doing ?". Customer says" Sleeping, of course!" Contractor says" Wow, Sorry !I figured if I couldn't sleep if I owed someone $1000, you'd be up too"
Jeff-
I would add one thing to your letter idea. Send the same letter at the same time by regular mail. Get a "Certificate of Mailing" from the post office. That shows it was mailed - it's different from a certified letter. But, he doesn't have the chance to refuse it or pick it up. It's delivered as part of the regular mail. Cost is about 60 cents IIRC.
Then, when you go into court, you can either show he signed for the certified mail, or if he doesn't get it, you can show that the other letter was sent the same day and there's a presumption of delivery. Let him try to explain to the Magistrate that he never got it.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
It's easy to ignore voice mail, email and snail mail...not so easy to ignore a knock on the front door. Stop when his car is there, have invoice in hand, ask him if there's any problem with the work, explain that you have suppliers & out of pocket expenses to pay...keep it civil but be firm that you need a check, if he's had some sort of issue (job loss, etc) maybe offer to take 1/3rd now, 1/3rd next month...
A roofer I knew back in MA only did local work, he would visit customers houses every night around dinner time until paid in full, occasionally on weekends for the real slow payers. Said he never had to eat an unpaid bill, never needed a lawyer, and never had to go to small claims court.
I set up credit card acceptance thru my bank. It's easy, the fees are not unreasonable, and easy for people to whip out the CC and be done with it.
-Norm
Edited 1/20/2008 8:38 am ET by VTNorm
Be kind... you don't know what the guy is going through. Normally if someone hires you to do a job and it is only 1k... they have the money to pay.
Try to work something out... post dated checks for a few months... discount a bit...whatever. He'll remember your kindness someday.
If he will talk to you when you show up at his door for a chat anyhow...
If not... file in court. You may get 50%, but he may settle just before court.
L
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