Here’s a real beauty I brought up a while ago in a Hack thread, since I have a new toy, I thought I would post the pictures…Called the building department twice, nobody seems to care. Talked to the old owner of the complex and the manager, they seem to think this is perfectly safe and I’m nuts.
In the first pic is the overall deck, you can notice that post about 6″+ out of plumb over 9′ and the nice sag in the frame. The railing orginally had twice the spacing they now have. After the managers dog about fell through she decided to have the guys add a few more…
The second pic, you’ll notice the 3 bolts and 2 even have washers! Oh, and that layout is nothing known to me.
You can learn a new use for tapcons if you wish
The hangers are screwed in with deck screws and the joists don’t quite sit in any of them. At least they filled all the holes…
and finally there are no bolts or lags holding the frame to the posts, just 4 screws in each post, 2 on each side.
Really I just wanted to show you guys how good I was!
Rest of the pics in the next message I messed up and posted to soon…DOH!
Edited 10/17/2003 7:26:30 PM ET by CAG
Replies
I needed some text to post...
It reeks of DIY...
The fact that the post bases and joist hangers are put on with screws says to me that the person had some intent of doing a good job but overall had no idea of what he/she was doing...Matt
That's funny.........when I saw them put in with screws it just told me that the installer does not know how to swing a hammer ;)
Neil
Didnt you say once(a while back) that they were building several of these, its an apartment complex right?
If so are they all this bad?
Doug
Yeah, this was the thesis of my Worlds Worst Hack job thread, and yeah they are that bad to one degree or another, I just see that one everyday when I park, some are better then that one, as far as I can tell that one is the worst.
Some actually have plumb post, some have the 3 bolts spread out a bit more evenly, no still not good, but a little better. None are anything I'd like to stand on with anyone else.
>>None are anything I'd like to stand on with anyone else.
Or stand under.
Did these "craftsmen" do one on your place....
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
no deck on mine
CAG-- I guess there were no inspections required on this deck?
Well first they would have had to pull a permit right?
The really ironic part is this deck replaces an existing one that was worn and needed to come down, BUT, the new one appears more dangerous then the original.
In several towns around here the inspectors will stop to see if permits have been pulled if they see work being done. I'm not sure if its a matter of trying to meet code compliance or making sure the town gets the permit fees. All in all, I guess its not a bad thing.
Someone said it screams DIY. I think that is an insult to most DIYers.
To me, it screams hack, with a strong undercurrent of criminal.
But it reminds me in a sick way, of the adage, "Life is a bitch, and then you die."
The HO insurance technically cannot MAKE them fix the problems. They can only write an exclusion re that deck, or cancel the entire policy for cause.
An insurance compoany or agent that might be interested would be the contractor's liability coverage. If the hacks have a liucense, this would be a matter of public record. You present yourself as one who is "considering" some deck work and wanting to check the license and credentials of "Hackmaster and Deckums Construction Company" at whatever hall of records....
Excellence is its own reward!
this was no contractor job of any sort.
Just the two village idiots who work for the apartment complex as "maintance"
damn college kids!
OK, Piff, maybe I was off base with the DIY thing. I'd like to retract that. Most of DIYs do good work. My point was that whoever did it, had no idea of what they are doing. When I think hack, I think about a guy who actually has some idea of what he is doing, but just has no pride in workmanship, or desire to do it right. He only does what is fastest and cheapest. Not someone who installs joist hangers with screws.
The first house my wife and I bought was about 30 years old. I was gratefully for a small shed attached to the carport and a utility room large enough to work in. Both rooms had ample lighting, as the previous homeowner and added lights in those areas. Imagine how I felt though when I went up in the attic and found that these extra lights were hooked up with those thin brown lamp-cord type extension cords... and they were old enough to where the insulation was cracked and deteriorating. They were laid under the loose floorboards. I ripped that stuff out of there in a hurry, installed the proper boxes and pulled some 12-2 wire, and had a licence electrician friend come and make the important connections which included a subpanel in the shed. I hooked up the "devices" under his supervision.
I guess a hack can be a homeowner or a "professional". With the DIY, I, more often than not just chalk up inferior work to inexperience, however, I have particular disdain for "professional" hacks, as it is their business to know better. Maybe the whole "hack" thing is more a personality type than anything else... I liked that saying I heard somewhere around here "good enough isn't".
Sounds like the guys involved in this hack were neither professionals or DIYs.Matt
Matt,
They weren't anything but 2 guys with some lumber and tools, I don't believe they did such a crappy job on purpose, but a few things contradict this.
One, any idiot with half a brain wouldn't leave a post that far out of plumb
Two, the bolts, common sense SHOULD tell you IF you're only using 3 bolts to spread then out, no sense holding up half a deck. and for the cost of a few extra pennies they could have at put in the proper amount.
Three the joist hangers... Again the common sense should kick in and tell you that the bottom of the joist should ride nicely in the bottom of the hanger.
A lot of it just looks to me like they didn't give a rats arse and only wanted to get it done, once what ever they put up, was in fact up, they were not going to trouble themselves to make it right even if it was painfully obvious it was wrong.
I don't know if I would call these two chimps hacks, when I think of a hack, I think of someone doing as little as possible with as little effort as possible all just to get paid, quality be damned.
I see your point. I wasn't trying to be disagreeable, just using hyperbole to focus on how deadly they were..
Excellence is its own reward!
It's frightening to think that at the end of the day, these guys stood back and said "another job well done, let's do the next one."
I think at the end of the day they probably never even looked back on their way to a cold beer.
I saw, in person, the deck CAG is talking about. Suggesting a beer is way too kind..
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Well my forth phone call got a little attention, they ended up tearing down another deck on the same building and put up a new one, It's not beautiful, but it looks to be very sturdy
The other one, that I posted pictures of they "fixed" I guess, not exactly what I would have done with it, I should have pulled it down with a chain..., but it's a definate improvement.
BTW, these were not the same people that build the last one, they looked like they knew what they were doing.
This is just another case of a piece of garbage who builds something who has no clue as to what they're doing with no permits and when the deck falls down and kills someone in their family or another family they will be crying and trying to sue somebody or they will be getting sued.
Joe Carola
Joe,
The two guys that the complex hired as "maintance" just other college kids with no experience
I'd come home when this was going up and just shake my head, I tried to offer advice but I was told by them, that they knew what they were doing....ok.... The first time I offered was when they were trying to lift the frame up on a set of ladders because it was "easier" to build on the ground and I suggested they might build it in place.
The now ex-owner of this place thought I was just trying to rip her off when I told her it wasn't safe because I said listen, I know what I'm talking about, I do this kind of stuff and it just ain't right..
She asked me to quote her a price and was appauled at my # and told me she'd give me 100 bucks for labor on each deck and I could have the help of dumb and dumber.
nope thanks anyway.
Hey, send that missouri deck expert back here. He is giving away too many secrets! ;)
Seriously, that looks like some "engineering" that has been in the news not so long ago. Makes you want to stop by when no one is home and "accidently" drive away with tow chain hooked up to it.
the thought has crossed my mind, I do park in front of it nightly...
Neil
Well the tapcons are within 6" of concrete, thats something!
Maybe call an "investigative reporter" from one of the local tv stations...
Do it right, or do it twice.
That's just swell. Real swell.
It certainly is dangerous. There are two other people who might care and can force it to be fixed, the fire inspector, and the owner's insurance company. If you are in a small town you may be able to ask around to find out who the insurance agent is. I guess another is the state building inspector, who oversees local inspectors. Or a local TV station. It would have made a good story a few days after the Chicago tragedy. A good reporter can make a story of it.
CAG,
So you finally bought one of those new fangled digital camera's? What did you get? My wife is already dropping hints that she want's a Canon Digital Rebel (SLR) for X-mas. She say's considering I bought that mill, plus all the money I've been throwing into the Chevelle, it's a drop in the bucket.
Jon
I just bought a nikon 3100, only problem is the zoom, the optical zoom is only 3x and it doesn't seem to be enough.
I didn't want to spend a ton of money because I figure this one will be obsolete in a few years
"I figure this one will be obsolete in a few years"
CAG, I'm guessing it's 3.1 M-pixels? If so, I don't think so. It's all you will ever need for posting. Does it have digital zoom? For posting pics (not printing) it's a worthwhile feature to learn how to use if it has it. (vs. zooming and resizing in IrfanView).
Jon
It does have a digital zoom can't remember exactly what, I was told that the digital zoom was not as good.
Even if it isn't obsolete I'll probably buy a new one in a few years with a better zoom, I'd like to get the SLR type set up, just didn't have the money to blow on that right now.
Talk about a hack job, I can't belive the inspector would let that pass. But in regards to the joist hangars, I prefer to use screws myself. But I don't use tapcons or drywall screws!
I'm a one man show, and I find it easier to line hangars up using screws. (Simpson does make a 1 1/4" screw designed for there hangars), but I use the Deckmate Brand Screws, they have a shear load rating of 105lbs and the Simpson screws are only zinc coated where as these are epoxy coated. I have never had one fail, but I have seen nails pulled loose, and screws have 5 times the holding power of nails. The #9 Deckmates have the same cross section of a 10 penny.
I'm not gonna argue with you that the deck you have pictured is a piece of garbage, but I don't think using the proper screws for joist hangars compromises the strength or integrity of a deck. However the screws holding the ledger and rim joist! Man that is scary!
I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!
If you look on Simpson's web site I think you will see that those screws are not to be used with PT lumber...
BTW I really like DeckMate screws too but, sorry, I think using screws on joist hangers is a waste of time... and in applications where a 1.5" fastener is required, I don't think you are gonna find a screw with the required shear strength.
Personally, I use ledger strips whenever possible. Faster and cheaper, and by the time I put 8 or so HD nail gun toe-nails in the end of each joist - it ain't coming out! That, and the support provided by the 3 nails in the ledger strip below each joist... Face nailing is what makes the whole joist nailing thing suspect, which in a case when I do face nail joists, I always add a few "toes" too. That, and I've seen some hacks use 8s for toenails :^( .
Matt
PS: I've looked at jobs 5 or more years later where I used DeckMates and HD screws, and the DeckMates have better corrosion resistance.
I like the deckmates too. When I hang the joisthangers, I find it easier to start out with screws. The last 2 jobs I did were t&g Fir on traditional covered porches. And I find that every time I get a batch of 2x' lumber they are never they same. The last 2x8's I ordered varied from 7 1/4" to 7 5/8". This isn't a big deal for 5/4 decking, but for the t&g flooring, I get much better results by hanging each hanger with it's respective joist.
Working alone I can clamp a hanger on the end of the joist hold it flush to the ledger and drive a screw in to get it exactly flush. The bits hold the deck mate screws very well. I know the screws take longer, but working alone it is easier. Usually I will drive 10 or 12d nails in the holes that go through the joist, but I've used deckmate #9 x3 1/2" which are plenty strong. (And the have the same cross section as a 10d)
Regardless of which has the greater shear strength, (which is obviously nails). I have never seen a nail or a screw fail when it comes to shear. However I have seen nails loosened and pulled part way out of the ledger, and screws have roughly 5 times the tension strength of nails.
In the old days they would toenail 2 or 3 10 pennies and that was it! With todays joist hangers you are using 8 or 10 fasteners plus the tabs for each joist! And with the joist hanger, the strength of the hanger is greater than the sum of all the fasteners.
Everyone uses nails, they are obviously faster, and stronger in shear. I just find it easier to use screws when working alone, and especially when super level/flush joists are needed as for t&g flooring. And although they don't match nails for shear, they are still more than strong enough when combined with joist hangers, and stronger in certain ways.
(PS How did the Deckmates look after 5yrs? They supposedly guarantee them forever.)I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!