Replies

1. 
   Pelipeth | Mar 21, 2009 03:37am | #1

   Just went through same thing over Christmas/NYE week at a friends "other" home in Lake Sherwood, Calif. HW heater burst on the bottom. Big home but damage was contained to the bottom floor. I believe we must have arrived within 2 days of the leaks start. She has had no problems with her ins. co., but the abatement co. was there within 1 hr. of our discovery, hence no mold issues. Abatement co. was excellent. Ins. Co. did request that we hold the failed heater for them. Maybe try to recoup some funds from Rheem, it was 6yrs. old. Good luck and stand your ground. Did you buy direct or do you have and ins. agent? If the latter they should be fighting for you.

1. 
   ponytl | Mar 21, 2009 03:50am | #2

   thanks for your support... i'm needing it right now... bought the insurance dirrect  large company and so far have responded quickly... after the first call they had servicemaster lined up to be there the next morning and gut the place... until the service master guy called me... as soon as i told him there already was mold... he said thats too late for them...  he called me back and canceled... the insurance co. called and set up for an adjuster to be there the next day... i met her there... she spent an hour or so... and said "it should be monday" but don't do anything til you hear from the insurance co..... then today... i get the call from the "company guy" who wants to see the place... he informed me about the "long term leak" thing... 

   I'm just feel'n this... not so good feeling that they are want'n to get out of this claim...

   p

2. 
   USAnigel | Mar 21, 2009 04:16am | #3

   "Steaming" a house will destroy things quickly and grow stuff fast!

   Say as little as you can to the insurance guy. What can you know? You were not there!

   Many people go away for months at a time and don't turn off the water like they should. Its just the present wall street stuff that has them on edge.

   If that valve is clean then it was "sudden unexpected event" which is what insurance is about.

   If its all green from weeping, then that could be long term leaking if they want to get funny about it.

1. 
   ponytl | Mar 21, 2009 07:14am | #8

   the deal is... i hate insurance co's..  and for the most part they really have been more than fair with me just about every time i have had to deal with them... (except car stuff when it was the other guys fault)  but I don't know i have ever suffered a loss after dealing with them... maybe a few hundred dollars... but thats expected...

   I just have a weird feeeling they are try'n to find anything where they can back out of this... just a feeling...   it was pretty clear it had not been leaking... all clean... just a small leak under pressure where it formed a steady fine mist stream...

   we keep the heat on... we keep cabinet doors open under sinks...  we have never turned the water off... because we have friends who have keys to it... and usually someone uses it...  thats what it's for... (we ask that they write a note in a book we keep)  the policy is for a "seasonal home"   which in my minds eye would say it might go months  uninhabited... while it's rare for ours to go weeks.... we have friends who go during the week  and just spend the day there reading... makes it pretty cool to have a lake house 30 minutes from the city....

   hope i'm worried over nothing... i just hate fighting stuff like this... so i'm hope'n i won't have to...  prepared to... just have better things i'd rather do

   thanks.... p)

1. 
   gotcha | Mar 21, 2009 04:24pm | #14

   Pony,
   Bad deal....Like you, for me dealing with insurance is painful.For you and everyone else, there are water sensor shut offs like Floodstop that will shut off water at wash machines or water heaters.Not that expensive..around $100 to $130.As Greg Gibson says in a later post the solenoid valve in wash machines can stick or the washer timer won't advance and stays on fill. This wasn't your situation, but one of many reasons to shut down the water when leaving a vacation home.Good luck,
   Pete

3. 
   barmil | Mar 21, 2009 04:27am | #4

   I feel for you, but turning off those valves will, I'm sure, be a part of closing down a house in the future. Don't forget the toilets.

4. 
   FastEddie | Mar 21, 2009 04:29am | #5

   Guy at the office just dealt with his insurance co about a long term water leak.  There was a problem with the drain for the toilet in the first floor powder room, slowly over a matter of months or years it rotted a couple of floor joists in the area.  Ins agent explained that if the leak had been recent, they would have covered it, but since it was such a long time, regular inspections of the crawlspace could have caught the problem.  I don't think your ins co will be able to claim long term damage.  make them show you the written definition in the policy.

   "Put your creed in your deed."   Emerson

   "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

1. 
   GregGibson | Mar 21, 2009 02:55pm | #11

   FastEddie is right - the catch phrase in most Homeowners policies for water damage is, "Sudden and Accidental"I'm the insurance guy here - I gain so much from everyone here, and every now and then, something comes along that's in my area of expertise.Disclaimer - I'm in Georgia, and only licensed in Georgia, so what I say might not hold water in another State. Okay, poor choice of words !A slow, hidden leak, under the toilet, or from a bad connection sealed in a wall is not covered by your Homeowners Insurance. The soft area in front of the shower; not covered. The rot around the toilet that you discover when you put down a new bathroom floor; not covered. The bad tile job in the shower that causes rot; not covered.But a water EVENT like this, something that was sudden, should be a covered loss, even for a Secondary Homeowners Policy. They MAY disclaim some of the effects of not discovering this for several days, which could mean the mold, mildew, and fungus. They MAY only pay a proportional amount of the subfloor damage - if it had been caught sooner, there might have been a chance to save and dry some of that. But I think you'll come out okay, all in all.Mold, mildew, and fungus is the same as the asbestos scare of the 1980's. The Attorneys got hold of this, and they're running with it. All sorts of respiratory problems, people are going back and sueing insurance companies because their kid develops asthma, and don't you remember that time the toilet overflowed, I'll bet there's MOLD in the floors ! This gets brought up as an evil, evil contamination, so the insurance companies have re-worded and amended their policies to either exclude coverage, or limit it. In my State, the basic Homeowners Policy comes with $10,000 in mold coverage, and you can buy additional coverage as an add-on. It's pricey - to increase it to $25,000 is about $100 a year.The reason they're asking about recent work, and who installed the washing machine is that they're looking for a chance to subrogate against someone to get their money back. We often collect from the folks that make the solenoid valves for washing machines - I've had four or five big water damage claims over the years for sticking solenoid valves. Also, we often collect our claims expense back from the various manufacturers of toilet float valves - they're notorious for sticking, too.My last words - whenever I get a chance to design and build my own home, there will be a floor drain in the laundry room. And finally, not to rub salt in your wound, we share our beach house with lots of friends. The written instructions that come with the key tell you in great detail how to turn on the water at the valve in the front yard, and how to turn on the circuit breaker for the water heater, then you just reverse the instructions when you leave. Good luck with this. It'll be a bit painful, but it will all work out in the end.Greg

   Edited 3/21/2009 8:02 am ET by GregGibson

1. 
   ponytl | Mar 21, 2009 04:09pm | #12

   thanks.... i knew someone here always KNOWS....   

    i can see them wanting to pay part because of the time line... BUT we don't know when it started leaking..  I'm sure if we called CSI <g> they through science could pin point down to the hour when the leak started

   and how much more damage has occured because drying steps have not been taken in a week since the loss was discovered?

   is it standard for the insurance co to tell you to do nothing until you hear from them?

   I hate doing nothing when i feel it would help to do something...

   again... thanks for your input.. it's cool to know there is always an expert on about any subject here

   thanks

   P

1. 
   GregGibson | Mar 21, 2009 11:42pm | #15

   I'm so sorry for your trouble - we had a 500 year flood here in Albany, GA in 1994, so I've seen pretty much first-hand what you're going through.#1, Be glad it's not your primary residence that's trashed, I'm sure you recognize the "it could be worse" mantra.#2, They don't want you to try to clean or mitigate the loss yourselves because they MAY still call in the pro's, once they sort out the coverage issue. Even in a case like this, if a well-intentioned homeowner doesn't know what they're doing, they could make things worse. Some people might think the best thing to do at this time is to fill a pump-up sprayer with bleach, and wet everything down. You see, they want to contain the loss. Also, a homeowner that thinks they have free reign might trash some of the personal property, thinking they'll be reimbursed, but if the stuff's GONE, either, a) they might say it COULD have been repaired, or b) they might have to deny paying for these items, since you can't produce them.#3, As much as you want to get started, the damage is already done - it might get incrementally worse for just sitting there, but not much worse.#4, Be glad it was clean water ! I've seen the sewage losses, and this is a walk in the park, in comparison.One poster was correct, don't bid this yourself, even if you're fully capable. Get a friend to bid it, and he can throw some of the work your way, just run it through him. Expect to "draw" from the insurance money, just like major fire damage.I'll be checking in. Greg

2. 
   Bwhite | Mar 22, 2009 06:56pm | #21

   There can be no doubt the insurers are looking  first of all for an "out" failing that they want to subrogate if they have to pay. The key to determining your entitlement is to read your policy wording. Thats what the insurer is doing. If there is some doubt as to the coverage the doubt must be ruled in your favor. Look for the exclusions that could rule the claim out immediately. You indicate loss by steam isnt covered. That may require on your part determining the meaning of steam. Your water system is likely not steam heat. So the water that escaped at some point turned to steam? I doubt it.It was water that in a heated confined area that created excessive humidity. Is that steam? I would suggest it isnt. Perhaps the answer is in the policy wording.While you are waiting for the insurers to answer the claim get an( accurate as you can quote from an independent qualified contractor)  that you can use to counter their quote.That is if thay are going to pay. If you get a denial get it in writing an find a lawyer who deals in these types of losses or an public adjuster

5. 
   GregT | Mar 21, 2009 05:43am | #6

   My house flooded during a horrendous storm that of course came up after my roof was torn off for a second story addition I was doing myself.  The insurance company was slow to send an adjuster (nine days in July) so the some of the house was full of mold.  They didn't give me any grief about covering the damages even though the house was opened up for construction by me. 

   I took the opportunity to rearrange walls and wanted to do the work myself so they paid what it would cost to put it back like it was before (although cheaply) and would not pay markup on materials or overhead and profit on labor for any item that I did not hire out.  Maybe it depends on your policy but watch for that if you do it yourself.  I did let them gut it, dry it and treat the mold.  All of the affected areas went to the dumpster anyway during my portion of the remodel but it didn't look to me like they can/did kill 100% of it.  Think about every nook and cranny in a wood framed house and it probably isn't possible so it better stay dry from that day forward.

   Hope it all goes well for you all things considered.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/20/2009 10:44 pm ET by GregT

6. 
   ANDYSZ2 | Mar 21, 2009 05:50am | #7

   Ponytl

   Sorry to hear about the vacation house.

   When you get settlement or not give me a call and I will come help for a couple days .

   ANDYSZ2

   WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?

   REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST

    

1. 
   ponytl | Mar 21, 2009 07:22am | #9

   man thanks... 

    guess it's the waiting that is kill'n me... wish they had sent the proper guy over the first day it we found it... and then i'd be already doing something... as it is... he'll be there tues... which is a week AFTER we found it...  that can't be good... and since they have told me to do nothing until they say... I'm feel'n like the worse it gets thats on their dime...

   if it wasn't for them... I'd have had a dumpster full of wet carpet and furniture... fans going... windows open and air move'n over everything...

   man come see me if you are ever close by

   thanks again for the very cool offer

   p

1. 
   ANDYSZ2 | Mar 21, 2009 07:28am | #10

   Run the heater full blast and buy some electric swirl fan heaters or rent.

   Open  up sheetrock so air can get behind.

   I've got some swirl cage fans also have a big 220 that needs wiring up to use .

   Do you want me to bring them to you.

   ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?

   REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST

    

1. 
   ponytl | Mar 21, 2009 04:15pm | #13

   thanks.. i'm covered on fans... the deal is they have told me to do nothing until they tell me...  so the damage continues as i wait at least until tues and meet the company man from the insurance co...  the first adjuster works under contract... this guy works for the company.. and is local..have no idea why he wasn't sent out first

   many thanks for the more than generous offer...  I'm just waiting at this point...

   p:)

2. 
   frammer52 | Mar 21, 2009 11:47pm | #16

   If they want to screw around too much, my suggestion is to hire a public adjuster.  It will cost you some money when you settle, but you don't have to deal with the insurance co..

   Simplifies life! 

    

7. 
   Dinosaur | Mar 22, 2009 01:32am | #17

   The insurance company may be stalling so they can bring in one of their 'pet' contractors to low-ball bid the job; then they'll try to use that number as the maximum they'll pay without a court fight.

   You need to get an itemised bid--preferably T&M--from at least one contractor that you can use to counter theirs.

   Last insurance job I did was a blown water heater in the basement rental apartment of a house. I estimated it at $21,600, all T&M, all itemised down to the last can of paint. The insurance company's contractor bid $11,900 as a fixed price, and that's what the adjuster offered the HO. She turned it down flat and referred them back to me.

   Adjuster called to offer me the $11 thou; I told him to learn to do arithmatic and call me back when he had actually read my estimate.

   They wound up paying $18,800. Coulda been worse....

   Dinosaur

   How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
   low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
   foolish men call Justice....
   

   

1. 
   ponytl | Mar 22, 2009 01:40am | #18

   WOW...  man i have run the numbers in my mind....  and i suck at it.... i mean i know what i can do stuff for when i have all the time in the world and my labor...  but  use'n what i read here as a guide labor price wise... I don't see this be'n any less than 60k

   could be 30k or could be 100k... i just have no clue what they use as a guide for labor...

   i have fought with insurance co's in the past (auto related) and always got my way... i had a 911 in the shop for over 10 months while they were try'n to get it right

   p

1. 
   ANDYSZ2 | Mar 22, 2009 07:47am | #19

   I would be glad to work up a bid with you so you have something to negotiate with ins. co.

   ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?

   REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST

    

2. 
   alwaysoverbudget | Mar 22, 2009 04:21pm | #20

   whats worse water or a fire? i don't know except no one gets hurt with water.both are a heck of a mess.the only major damage i have  ever had on a house was a tornado,and the way they adjusted that was a mess.i had had a body shop and was use to ins. co. estimates on cars. the house deal was a complete different deal though. they paid very little labor,just stuff like .50 a foot to replace 2x4,etc. it took 3 adjusters to finally get it close to right.on the 3rd one i told him,this is what i do fix houses,but if i couldn't make money doing it, i would hire the best ,most expensive guy in town and let them deal with it.seem to help,but i know they were still on the low side.

   a friend of mine had a washing machine hose break,they were gone for the day. repairs were in that 60k range plus all new furniture in the basement.no mold

    YOU ONLY NEED TWO TOOLS IN LIFE - WD-40 AND DUCT TAPE. IF IT DOESN'TMOVE AND SHOULD, USE THE WD-40. IF IT SHOULDN'T MOVE AND DOES, USE THEDUCT TAPE.

3. 
   Dinosaur | Mar 22, 2009 07:40pm | #22

   use'n what i read here as a guide labor price wise... I don't see this be'n any less than 60k

   could be 30k or could be 100k... i just have no clue what they use as a guide for labor...

   Insurance companies are great proponents of YMMV--their local adjustors work up relationships with several local contractors who specialise in low-ball bids. In other words, if the range of labour rates in an area is from $40-$100 per hour (as it is around here), the adjustor will ask for a quote from the contractors who charge $40.

   So, while there may be an insurance industry 'red book' or 'blue book' or some other colour 'book' which estimates the hours needed to accomplish specific tasks, there is no industry-wide 'standard' labour rate.

   However--you, as the policy-holder and homeowner, have the right to choose which contractor you want to do your work. The insurance company cannot dictate that, although they may try to make you think they can.

   In the end, it's a game of bluffing. They try to bluff you into thinking if you don't take their low-ball offer, you're SOL and will get nothing. You try to bluff them into believing that you are willing and anxious to hire a lawyer and sue their pants off.

   Since this is not your primary residence, you have a better chance of doing that--because the adjustor will know you can afford to wait for a judge to decide. Somebody whose home is unlivable, OTOH, and who does not have the money or credit to pay for the repairs before getting a court judgement against the insurance company, well, somebody in that position is an insurance adjustor's wet dream....

   Dinosaur

   How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

8. 
   jimAKAblue | Mar 23, 2009 04:50am | #23

   Hiring an attorney or adjuster will not cost you money, it will get you more money.

   The insurance companies only duty at this time is to cut you a check. They can't tell you who to hire and they can't tell you do do any clean up etc.

   I'd find the three most expensive contractors in the area and ask for bids. I'd contact the largest fire/water contractor and ask for a bid.

   Then, I'd probably hire the best one if I had the condo project going like you do.

9. 
   cussnu2 | Mar 23, 2009 07:08pm | #24

   My only though is....don't tell them you plan on doing the work yourself.

   Make an agreement with a GC friend to bid the work and hire you on to do the job.  If you do the work, the ins co won't pay you squat but they would gladly pay your buddy who can take a % for his time/trouble and you get the benefit of a paying job you can do on nights/weekends.

10. 
    RobWes | Mar 23, 2009 08:17pm | #25

    Been here and done that. What a freaking mess I delt with and the insurance company was a PITA. Total loss was 54K to give you the scope of work.

    If I ever had to do it again... I'd get a private adjuster. Never again will I go thru such a large claim on my own. I was made whole again but these guys look at every thing you do as an angle to beat them on something. DO NOT RAISE A FINGER.

    I hope you had a replacement value policy not Actual Cash.

11. 
    ANDYSZ2 | Apr 02, 2009 03:46pm | #26

     Has the disaster relief  progressed any?

    ANDYSZ2

    WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?

    REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST

     

1. 
   ponytl | Apr 02, 2009 09:39pm | #27

   nothing has happened... still with the adjuster...  I'm about to get pizzed  but I'm going with their gameplan til friday...

   thanks for check'n...

   p

1. 
   Bing187 | Apr 07, 2009 07:18pm | #28

   Any news on your progress with the insurance B!@[email protected] mean adjusters?

1. 
   ponytl | Apr 08, 2009 01:50am | #30

   it will be 3 weeks as of weds.   after many repeted calls to the adjuster he shot me a number...   the number he gave me wouldn't get you out of the kitchen...  he didn't know the refrig was built in...  same wood as the cabinets  counter depth wood panels front &sides...  he didn't notice the buckled walls... he didn't account for the fact that the kitchen floor was installed after the cabinets... there is no way not to replace the floor...   thats just a start...  now he told me to just get an est. and send it to him...

   now I'm call'n on andy :)...  I don't want to mess with it nor do i have the time...

   I did let them know stacy was over looking for furnished homes to rent on the lake...

   the adjuster guy.. seems like a good guy... just swamped... think they are try'n to get him to do the work of 3... no matter how good you are.... just a hard thing to do

   P:)

1. 
   MissD | Apr 08, 2009 05:43am | #31

   In our condo association, there is a similar, but not similar situation.  The owner rents his TH.  During this past cold winter,  pipes or a pipe were/was burst.  The neighbor either let his insurance coverage lapse or didn't receive his insurance bill (his statement.)  The condo assn.  has insurance coverage - I haven't researched the coverage.  There was a thick sheet of ice on the side of his TH.  The owner chose the company to perform the repair work.  They were on the spot immediately.  Since then, they seldom show up for any length of time.  To me, something doesn't smell right and it's not the mold.

   I really would like to receive any comments as I'm on the BOD of the condo.

    

    

2. 
   ponytl | Apr 08, 2009 01:42am | #29

   andy... i don't have your number in my new phone... give me a call if you can

   Craig