I work for a non union GC. I am embarking on my first foray into commercial construction–gut remodel of two apartment buildings.
I recently recieved bids for all the trades for which we will go out of the company. Interestingly, many of the winning bidders were union shops, in spite of the fact that there were usually non-unions bidders as well.
We’ve had a lot of unions picketing non union contractors in town lately. My concern is that if I get picketed, my union subs won’t cross. Then the project gets held up, etc. etc.
Just wondering if anyone can shed light on how it all works. I drove by a site today that had a separate entrance marked “union entrance”. Does that mean the picketers stay on the non-union entrance?
Replies
Talk to them and see what conditions they want for a "no strike" pledge.
I am in the carpenters union. In situations like yours a two gate system is set up, one exclusively for union contractors and one for non-union. From personal experience, these systems are not usually set up until a picket is threatened or done.
You may be able to avoid lost time by setting up the two gate system ahead of time. I have no idea how to go about that, maybe others do.
Here is a link. I googled two gate system.
https://www.agcwa.com/client/assets/files/dual_gate.pdf
I don't want to get into the whole union/nonunion thing. I do know when work gets scarce the unions are more apt to set up pickets.
Good luck with your project, maybe you could let us know how the union shops perform for you.
Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Your best bet is before accepting any union bids you contact the given trades business agent to see what consolations they'll make and clear the contracts with the BA's.If you don't, what may happen is say your carpenters are non union and plumbers are union. Surprisingly around here all bathroom work is plumbers work including grab bars, mirrors, paper towel dispensers, in wall trash cans, sort of things you'd expect to be carpentry items.non union carpenters are contracted to do this, union plumbing steward finds out and they throw a stink (no jokes intended) and now the carpentry company won't return credit under contract and job only progresses without a picket if plumbers perform work so they hike the install price because your now stuck with it and still have to pay the carpentry contractor too. Any number of things like this can occur with mixed contracts. Now if you've cleared these sorts of things with the BA before a steward is on the job you'll have far less problems with a vocal steward on the job trying to stir the pot. The dual gate is really more symbolic than anything, the real troubles will be from the above example or depending on the area/job/personalities/etc... the petty things that can slow progress or make life miserable. "Accidental" sabotage, pushing deadlines to make life harder for the following trades work,clean up responsibilities, favors that won't go back and forth, general cooperation, etc...Maybe nothing will happen too since everybody's just trying to stay working right now.
I suppose a lot depends on your local climate - and conditions on your particular jobsite.
I've worked places where the appearance of a non-union contractor would cause everyone else to leave, but that has been the exception.
More common is the use of separate parking lots and entrances. This reduces the likelyhood of some jerk 'stirring the pot.' After all, it takes only one jerk to get trouble started.
Otherwise, it has to be made clear that there will be ZERO tolerance of any BS on the job. We've all been on jobs where everyone was at war, and it's no fun. It also helps if the 'ice is broken' by a few offering to help the others ... for example, the operators' using their gear to help transport job boxes around, the sparkies stringing plenty of lights and temporary power, etc. After, we're all there to earn a living.
<I drove by a site today that had a separate entrance marked "union entrance>
Good Lord, aren't we past all that stupidity and bullying and overt posturing now?
Forrest
If your area has a Central Labor Council I would call and see if there is someone in the higher-ups there who can help you understand the workings. A little up front communication could go a long way towards making it work.
Yes, I that's a good point. I think I will call the central office. I really don't have anything against unions. In fact, the majority of the dollars that we are subbing out are going to union contractors. Plus, I could be a prick and yank every union bid (we reserve the right to reject any and all bids) and easily get a non-union contractor. I won't do that. Hopefully, those points aren't lost.The other dynamic in this town is that much of the commercial work is going to out-of-town outfits. It's going to be a hungry winter for a lot of people. Hopefully, I'm not being naive to think "can't we all get along"?
> Hopefully, I'm not being naive to think "can't we all get along"?Hunger can be a motivating force in both directions.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
The two gate system is just a bunch of legal garbage.
If there is a picket line up, most union members won't cross it, no matter which gate it is on.
If I had the time [that apparently the union workers have] I'd be picketing union run jobsites.
I cannot stand union carpenters. I can't believe they ended up in your low bid pile. Usually they have to cover expenses for all the time they waste on breaks.
I am hoping that unions (especially UAW) will soon be dissolved as more americans realize that you can get more bang for your buck by employing non-union workers.
DC
you could've just said nothing and left this to be a productive thread on solutions to the OPs thread but instead you had to interject you tavernesque opinion. I hope other's don't follow your lead and start do the pro Vs con union thing here and stick to trying to help the OP.
Oh, sorry.The answer would then be to NOT hire union contractors. Then you wouldn't have to worry about providing separate entrances or that your contractors won't cross a picket line. If you are working with all non-union contractors then no problems since the only people who care about a union picket line are union workers.DC
you talk like a guy who knows nothing of labor history in the US
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I know enough about the historic relevance of unions to know that they were began for a deserved purpose but that purpose has played it's course and is now lost. What was at one time a valuable collaboration of working men has now become just as corrupt as the industrial barons they sought to grapple. The result has become higher costs and lower quality. The only winners are unions and industry. I would rather to boycott union than to deal with them.DC
I have a union sparkie and plumber/hvac on site, nicest people I ever work for, but the union /non union stuff stays at the gate. want to picket , picket the main office not the job
" ....the union /non union stuff stays at the gate."Sounds fair enough. I'll shut up about it now too.DC
fine.... we'll get rid of the unions...
of course, you do realize that the whole middle class goes with them...
and the US will become a corprate oligarchyMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"of course, you do realize that the whole middle class goes with them..."See above post.DC
> but that purpose has played it's courseUntrue. Pure economics tell us that there will always be employers willing to take advantage of workers. The only true alternative to unions is to have the government dictate wages and working conditions. Is that what you prefer?
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Edited 8/17/2009 5:57 pm by DanH
The only true alternative to unions is to have the government dictate wages and working conditions.
That's what we have now. How is it relevant to your side of the debate. It seems to me that it actually proves his point.SamT
Definitely NOT what we have now. The government only dictates (very low) bottom limits on wages and working conditions. Having robust unions is the "market-driven" approach to regulation.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
> Pure economics tell us that there will always be employers willing to take advantage of workers. I sure don't want to stir the pot, but aren't there also union workers willing to take advantage of employers? The plumbers insisting on doing grab bars seemed like an example, and any of us who've worked in a union shop have seen "rules" that defy common sense.
Yes, it works both ways. But you can't have a fair negotiation of prices and conditions unless both parties hold some of the power. The only lumber yard in town can charge whatever they want for inferior stock. The super-sized contractor, on the other hand, can play several yards against each other and get prices where the yards are actually losing money on the deal.A fair marketplace requires that both buyer and seller hold some of the power. In many occupations that doesn't happen without unions.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Watch out for the rat...
There is no difference between a union and a non union company. If you treat people with respect, and honor the agreed upon contract, you won't have a problem.
Every union member I work with just wants to work. Just like anybody else. If we don't work we don't get paid. Period. Picketing doesn't pay.
Obviously, union contractors don't cost any more than non-union contactors. It's just a matter of how the money is allocated to the labor pool.
My regional counsel has a $14 million training facility. With 6 full time instructors. Every member is subjected to drug testing, and OSHA certified. How many non union contractors can say that?
It's not too late, it's never too late.
Forgot to add that every member is provided healthcare, annuity, and pension at zero cost to us. Social security taxes, and unemployment insurance paid. Imagine if that were true for every tradesman in America.Again, look at original post. Union contract prices are beating non-union prices. Where is all the money going?
Edited 8/17/2009 6:48 pm ET by dustinf
dustin
Re;Union prices beating non union pricing
I think it was last year I started hearing about unions subsidizing wages so that union contractors could secure some larger projects. I forget what they called it. Market subsidy or something?
IMO, won't last long.
I believe its called "market recovery" and to my knowledge it was first implemented by piledrivers local 34 to help union contractors get the work on highway improvements for the winter Olympics in Salt Lake City Utah in 2002.
This was done in the late 90's so it is at least 10 years old. One contractor was the main target, notorious for not paying his people well.
I also think this plan had something to do with local 34 being taken into receivership by the international. All of this happened at the same time the carpenters international "reorganized" much to the detriment of the membership IMHO, although there is the possibility that it benefited some locals, it destroyed mine.
I have the utmost respect for Mike H. Smith, and agree with his assessment of the positives of unions and how the middle class will be gone without them, but I also agree with Dreamcatchers assessment that the unions have become corrupt and are now run like a corporation with its own best interests at heart, not necessarily the best interests of its members.
I could go on and on about this subject, but the short version of my position is that we need the unions, but we need to make improvements in them.
We call ours "Target Fund". I'm pretty sure it's $.03 per hour, out of our wages if you enroll(It's 100% optional). We have millions sitting ours, but honestly, the contracts are so close we hardly ever use it. The largest subsidation that I've heard of was $80k, on a $2 million dollar job.It's way more efffective in other markets, NYC and Philly are the 2 biggest that I know of.It's not too late, it's never too late.
"Where is all the money going?"Warranty work claims, correcting ill-performed spec. work, safety violation fines, worker's comp claims/disability, law suite litigation for death and disability accidents, higher insurance and bond rates due to the above and the tank of the owners boat.
"Forgot to add that every member is provided healthcare, annuity, and pension at zero cost to us. "FAR FROM IT.Here is a clear example. How many time have you seen stories where the union has said that they had to give up desired pay increases because of the cost health insurance..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Bill,Our healthcare is 100% funded by the contactors. It's an item negotiated during collective bargaining as a % of our wages. The percentage is constant, the amount paid increases with our wages. Wages have increased every year for the past 26 years. Don't see your point.It's not too late, it's never too late.
You claimed that is did not COST YOU.The employer is not paying that money out of the goodness of his heart.He is paying that in lieu of paying you more salary.
.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
With what certainty do you make the statement: ""He is paying that in lieu of paying you more salary.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
If I buy you gift for a dollar, and give it to you. Did it cost you a dollar?It's not too late, it's never too late.
So now it is a GIFT.From M-W"
* Main Entry: 1gift
* Pronunciation: ˈgift
* Function: noun
* Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse, something given, talent; akin to Old English giefan to give
* Date: 12th century1 : a notable capacity, talent, or endowment
2 : something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation
3 : the act, right, or power of giving"So this is given WITHOUT COMPENSATION.You don't to work for it? Did you not say that it was credited to you for each hour that you work?That is compensation.And if it was a GIFT you (the union) would not have to bargin for it.How do I get one of those GIFTS.
.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
You know, a gift -- like a political campaign donation.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
No one ever claimed that a political donation was a gift. Neither according to the the dictionary, the IRS or the FEC..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Compare the definition of "gift" to what many people claim about various political donations. Sure sounds like a gift to me.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
You're obviously of a much greater intelect than I.You should run for office. Start using words like, "technically", or "mis-remembered." When all else fails, quote the dictionary. How can I possibly debate the definition of the word 'gift'?Wow your so totally smart and I's so totally dum
Edited 8/19/2009 5:35 pm ET by dustinf
I think whenever you spell the word intellect in the context of a sentence describing your intellect and you spell it intelect you are inviting a clear comparison to someone who is...less than adequately endowed in the intellectuality department.
Especially in this day and age of "spellcheck"
It's he!! being stupid.Embrace the suck.It's not too late, it's never too late.
You all funny 'n sh!T
After reading all the post and the union vs non-union opinions, I have to ask if you see potential trouble brewing why would you even consider inviting it in?
Once it starts you're stuck, there's no going back.
Joe H
I use certain Union subs (demo primarily) because they are faster, safer and cheaper than the alternatives. And most Unions have no interest at all in small-scale residential work, so I've got little to fear.
Have had union, non-union, as well as mixed on my projects before. And haven't had a problem to date, knock on wood.
Personally, in my experience, I believe union shops can do a better job most of the time.
For your project, I believe it will come down to how the bid documents were written. Do you have no strike/no picket clauses? Or severe LD for the subs?
On a side note, from the WSJ July 26:
<snip>
Union Pensions in the Red
Labor chiefs are doing better than the workers.
We’ve all read about underfunded corporate pensions, but here’s an unreported story: Union pensions are even more in the red, and it’s one reason union chiefs are so eager to rig organizing rules to gain more dues-paying members.
Only last week, the country’s largest union local re-opened the contract for its 145,000 members two years early and gave up raises and reduced retirement benefits for future hires. The SEIU’s United Healthcare Workers East struck this unusual deal so employers could instead plug a gaping pension hole.
In April, the SEIU National Industry Pension Fund—which covers some 101,000 rank-and-file members—announced that its pension has been put into what the feds call “critical status,†or “red zone.†In other words, it lacks the cash to pay promised benefits and may have to cut them. As of 2007, the last year for which it reported results to the government, the fund had 74.4% of the assets needed to pay its benefits.
Thirteen of the bigger plans operated for the Teamsters have, together, a mere 59.3% of reserves necessary to cover obligations. Or consider that 26 pension funds at the food workers union, the UFCW, are at 58.7%. Seven locals at the United Brotherhood of Carpenters fare better at 67%. As a rule of thumb the government considers a fund to be “endangered†at below 80%, and in “critical†status at below 65%, and requires them to come up with a plan to get off probation within a decade.
You don’t hear labor leaders touting this kind of performance in their organizing riffs, and not many workers are patient enough to review the Form 5500 filings submitted to the IRS and Department of Labor that track these retirement savings. But the data show a steady decline in recent years that can’t be explained merely by the stock market.
For example, Unite HERE’s National Retirement Fund stood at 115% in 1998 and dropped to 83.4% by 2007, well before the crash. The SEIU fund that was put into a “red zone†in April was at 103.4% as recently as 1998. On average, the asset to liability ration at so-called multi-employer plans, which union funds make up the bulk of, stood at 66% in 2006, according to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation. By contrast, single employer plans, basically most company-provided pensions, were funded at 96%.
Poor management probably deserves a lot of the blame for the union decline, but the exact causes are a mystery. An even bigger mystery is that the unions do a far better job with funds created for their officers and employees than for mere workers. The SEIU Affiliates, Officers and Employees Pension Plan—which covers the staff and bosses at its locals—was funded as of 2007 at 102.2%. The plan for the folks at SEIU international headquarters was funded at 84.8%.
Union officer benefits are also far more generous than anything dues-paying workers enjoy. Consider again the SEIU, probably the country’s most powerful union. Their officers and employees get a yearly 3% cost of living increase, but SEIU members get none; officers qualify for an early pension at 50 or after more than 30 years of service, but workers can’t retire early with a pension; officers qualify for disability retirement after a year’s service, but workers need 10 years. In the land of union retirement, some workers are more equal than others.
We suspect most current union members would be surprised to learn how their leaders are handling their hard-earned retirement money. The 93% of the private workforce that doesn’t belong to a union, but that might have little choice if Big Labor’s agenda becomes law, would be even more interested. <snap>
I think I can say, and say with pride that we have some legislatures that bring higher prices than any in the world. - Mark Twain