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deck building questions

BHosch | Posted in Construction Techniques on June 1, 2010 11:29am

I am starting on getting a deck built. My wife and I have designed the basic shape and size etc but need help on the structure. My wife really wants the decking to run at a 45 degree angle relative to the house so I thought we would have the joists run at a 45 degree angle perpendicular to the decking so that we could use 16 inch joist spacing.

I thought I would use the Simpson skewed joist hangers but my contractor friend feels that nails directly through the joists into the ledger combined with an angle bracket would be stronger than the joist hangers which he feels are a waste of money for an angled connection.

I am looking for a second opinion on the issue of skewed joist hangers.

Thanks!

Bob

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  1. Kevin_D | Jun 01, 2010 04:29pm | #1

    The Simpson brackets would be stronger for sure imho. Add maybe 100lbs per nail depending on size + the clip load value. You can't put that many nails in without splitting your wood, so it depends on the angle clips  

    You can look at the Simpson charts for load ratings. I don't know which brackets you are looking at.  http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/sur-sul-hsur-hsul.asp The angle brackets have a higher load rating than you can likely achieve with the clips and nails. 

    http://www.Strongtie.com has all the products.

    The question is if you need the extra strength. Do you really need a bracket that can handle a 1300 lb load?

    You probably don't, and could probably get away with omitting it.

    That said it's YOUR deck. How long are you going to live there? Are you trying to build a deck that will last the rest of your life? It also depends on your budget. 

    It also depends on what the building department and your local code dictates. 

    1. BHosch | Jun 01, 2010 06:13pm | #3

      Deck Questions

      Thank you for the reply.

      I have looked up the angle brackets and they are the once bendable support angles LS30 and/or 50. I think I will go with the actual hangers (as you guessed I was looking at the sur/sul). 

      The decking will be Ipe which is very heavy and though it hardly snows here (western Washington) there is the occasional legendary snow which collapses various structures.

      The rest of my life will be hopefully 20-30 years? We bought Ipe so I think it's fair to say we are sparing no expense for materials though I guess I'm going a little cheaper on the labor in hiring an out of work framer. I really wanted Ipe and it cost a whole lot more than I thought it would.

      I may not file for a permit so I don't want to ask the local building department.

      Cheers and thanks again!

      Bob

      1. TLE | Jun 01, 2010 08:13pm | #6

        No permit??

        I may not file for a permit so I don't want to ask the local building department.

        Comments like that cause me to totally disregard your questions.

        A building permit does not create some onerous conditions for your project.

        Man up and get the permit.

        Terry

        1. BHosch | Jun 02, 2010 12:13am | #7

          Permits

          To be honest I don't know much about the permitting process as I have never filed for one. I have no problem with the general concept, I like the idea of having an inspector double check everything, but I do have a hard time with people telling me what to do and not do (outside of the obvious issues of safety).

          My main concern is that we live on the shoreline and there have been many onerous regulations proposed about massive setbacks to protect the shoreline. I completely understand the need to regulate, for instance, the cutting down of trees along a stream bed to protect the salmon but I cannot understand what building a deck on my house, in a fenced yard I otherwise control, 30 feet from the shore, is going to effect.

          I admit I am however nervous about building such a visible outdoor structure outside the regulations of our county. 

          Bob

          1. TLE | Jun 02, 2010 06:34am | #8

            Permits

            One other consideration for a permit. And I only know of one instance like this that I can personally attest to.

            In a nearby small town, a homeowner built a detached, slab on grade garage - without a permit.

            About a year or so later, the county inspector found out and found it to be slightly larger then allowed for a floating slab construction. After a lot of back and forth bickering, head butting and "This is my property and I can do as I please", the county sent in a contractor to tear it down.

            Afterwards, the man sold the house, a  woman bought it, hired me to build a permited and conforming garage (on to of the existing slab) and for the next 15 years was one of my better customers.

            Terry

          2. BHosch | Jun 02, 2010 02:16pm | #11

            permits

            Thanks for the reply. I am starting to come around to the permit idea. I would hate to have to tear it all down.

            Bob

          3. Piffin | Jun 03, 2010 05:36am | #19

            "I do have a hard time with

            "I do have a hard time with people telling me what to do and not do"

            Then why are you here asking how to do this?

            There are a dozen good reasons for the restrictions, but why bother telling you - you don't want to be told.

            Just get ready to pay the fine and tear the deck back down again.

      2. davidmeiland | Jun 02, 2010 09:49am | #10

        Uh... so what's an "out of work framer"?

        Is that secret code for an unlicensed contractor? A guy who doesn't have the license, insurance, or bond that I have? A guy that doesn't abide the law and collect the sales tax from you that he's supposed to? A guy that will go right ahead and build your deck on a shoreline parcel without a permit? AND... he might do something as goofy as angling the joists at 45 degrees?

        No one here should be helping you. 

        1. BHosch | Jun 02, 2010 02:32pm | #12

          No one here should be helping you....

          Actually you are helping.

          I am just a homeowner looking to add a deck to my property. All the time we have been planning this deck I have been assuming I would build it myself as I have done many things around here. My wife won't let me do it because I am too backed up and too slow and she wants it this summer.

          My friend is in fact a licensed and bonded contractor and is in between houses. I used the term "framer" to describe what I understand to be his skill set. He is willing to do a job "under the table" to help save me money.

          Frankly I have sticker shock from the various bids I received. One of the contractors was willing to build without a permit and told me that it's about 50-50 with people on the shore not wanting a permit.

          Here in Washington there is a sort of attitude that "I can do what I want with my property" and I live in a semi rural area. That said I am coming around to the idea of a permit as I am hearing some horror stories.

          The 45 degree joist layout is not as kooky as it sounds because the area in question is actually a triangle jutting from the house and lends itself to a skewed layout.

          Thanks

          Bob

          1. davidmeiland | Jun 02, 2010 08:46pm | #15

            It is rarely much trouble

            to get a permit for a deck. If you're not too close to the shoreline, and your plan meets prescriptive criteria, they'll probably issue a permit without much hassle or cost. You won't have to worry about a neighbor complaining. You won't have to worry about the inspector happening by and stopping work, or making you tear it out. You won't have to worry about the county updating their property records using aerial photos and finding your deck (up here the county has a remarkably good aerial survey and they use it to find out what's going on). You won't have to worry about the assessor coming to update the record and noticing the deck. You won't have to worry about disclosing permits (or lack thereof) when you sell.

            You will probably find that 1x6 ipe can span 24" without a problem. I still say the diagonal joists are very unusual and would only be a last resort for an experienced framer, but it's not out of the question.

          2. BHosch | Jun 03, 2010 01:28am | #17

            permits

            We are in roughly the same part of the world (Western Washington!) so I understand what you are saying about the aerial survey. It's not as if I am buried in the woods, my property can be seen on google.

            Two years ago a county assessor came by and I wouldn't let him on my property (we have dogs that would have been very unhappy). Nevertheless they raised our taxes by 25 percent declaring a general updating of outdated shoreline property values (unfortunately I am living on a wealthy persons property but spent all my wealth acquiring it).

            The shoreline rules seem to be in flux right now with the last shoreline plan having been thrown out by the courts. There is a constant push-pull between the property owners and the environmentalists. The thing is I am totally gung-ho on environmental issues. I am totally behind the concept of stewardship vs "I want to do whatever I want regardless of impact". Although I guess like most people I prefer to use my own judgement as to what is impact-full.

            I do believe that my deck infringes slightly on the shoreline setback. It doesn't impact the shoreline in any way but it does go over the line. My contractor says that at the most I will have to pay a fine.

            It is a tough decision because I want to build it to my vision, not to an arbitrary setback which doesn't impact peoples enjoyment of the shoreline or neighbors enjoyment and peace of mind.

            I am conflicted to say the least.

            Bob

              

               

             

          3. davidmeiland | Jun 03, 2010 08:32am | #25

            What you're saying

            is that rules are fine, but this one shouldn't apply to you. How many people can take that approach before it's a problem?

          4. DanH | Jun 03, 2010 08:35am | #26

            http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2010/05/23

          5. Kevin_D | Jun 09, 2010 10:34pm | #28

            There are many passionate replies. 

            I agree for the most part with them.

            I will caution you:

            If he is really licensed, check his license.

            Does he have workers comp? - Did you know you could lose your house and all your money / belongings if he gets hurt and sues you? Is saving $XXXX dollars worth putting your life savings in jeopardy?

            All it takes is "Oh my back / finger / foot!" etc.

            Furthermore, I would be wary of the county telling you to tear down your deck. 

            That means you paid for the deck, plus fines, plus the money to tear it down, all to avoid a $250? permit fee. 

          6. Kevin_D | Jun 09, 2010 10:38pm | #29

            P.S - I feel your pain.

            The city made me pay $500 for an extra 2 feet, and I had to reduce my garage by 5 feet and discuss (argue) with them several times. The upside? It's legal, no worries. 

          7. Piffin | Jun 03, 2010 05:41am | #20

            "He is willing to do a job

            "He is willing to do a job "under the table" to help save me money."

            I HATE that kind of crap!

            When that monkey business is pulled, it means he is not paying his share iof the income takes and that increases the load to bear for the rest of us who are honest. That is pure theft.

            Think you really want someone dis-honest working on your property?

            Ooops - sure you do, You two deserve each other.

  2. User avater
    MarkH | Jun 01, 2010 05:15pm | #2

    I'd just use 12" on center

    I'd just use 12" on center joists, way easier.

    1. BHosch | Jun 01, 2010 06:17pm | #4

      12" on center

      Angling the placement of the deck fasteners kind of bothers me.

      I will be drilling and plugging Ipe and I think it will be easier to set up some sort of jig for perpendicular fastening. That said I should take a look at this again.

      Thanks

      Bob

    2. Piffin | Jun 03, 2010 05:50am | #21

      Not necessary for IPE`

      IPE` will span a 24"OC layout and meet the needs. Personally I don't care to run over a black diamond layout for it, but I have run IPE` on a diag on 16OC - rock solid.

      1. User avater
        MarkH | Jun 03, 2010 06:40am | #23

        I've never worked with Ipe lumber.   I did do some work on a deck where the joists were on 24" (average) centers and decked with PT laid diagonal.  It was like a wood trampoline, except a couple places where someone broke through a plank.  Built by drunken college students at a rental.  Someone I know bought the house and we were able to recycle the materials (plus a good number of new joists and some new decking) into a solid deck.  Still standing and gets heavy use.  Not beautiful, but practical.  There was no budget for a new one.   I guess their bulldogs knocked a charcoal grill over on it recently, so it's got a small burn hole through it now, fortunately no damage to anything else.

  3. DanH | Jun 01, 2010 07:53pm | #5

    I'd go with the narrower joist spacing and decking 45 degrees to the joists -- makes for a much more rigid deck underfoot.

  4. User avater
    Matt | Jun 02, 2010 07:26am | #9

    Joist fastening and permits.

    Re the joist fastening if you do use the angle brackets go with the heavier ones.  Even LS70 if you can find them.  I'd put a 2x2 ledger under the joists as well.  If nothing lese it will aide in the assembly of the floor system.  RE the skewed joist hangers the acute angle part of the hanger can be somewhat difficult to get nailed properly.  Really, joists at a 45 degree angle is an atypical way to do it though and will result in some joists being significantly longer possibly requiring a tighter joist spacing anyway.  The normal way would be just to tighten up your joist spacing.   I'm surprised your contractor friend didn't suggest that.  OTOH, are you sure IPE can't span the ~2' that would result from 16" OC 90 degree joists?  Don't know.  Just asking.  Really though all this talk about joist fastening is dependant on what is code required in your area which needs me to my next point.

    If you build something without a permit and you get caught you will be so $cewed.  I have seen it a number of times.  My advice to you would to in-cog-neato find out exactly what the setbacks and other regulations are that affect your project.  If there is anyway you can do it legally then do.  If you find that you absolutely cannot build what you want legally then go ahead and roll the dice knowing that you may end up removing the structure (with no wining)..  Either way, be sure what you build is 100% building code compliant.  For example, here I really doubt that inspectors would accept the angle brackets (no joist hangers).  If you go the roll-the-dice route I'd even carefully photograph the detail of the digging of your footers as this is the only thing that can't be inspected after the fact with a deck. 

    Back to the structure of the deck frame, you have selected a (more or less) forever decking, so you need to construct a forever supporting structure.  Also, be aware that you will be investing massive amounts of labor in the installation of the deck boards.

    1. BHosch | Jun 02, 2010 02:46pm | #13

      Permits

      Thank you for your reply.   

      The Ipe is 1x6 so its about 3/4" thick and I believe it needs 16" spacing.

       

      After reading the various replies I am thinking of going with a more standard structure using 12" spacing perpendicular to the ledger. The top part of the deck is basically triangular and I thought it would be clever to run the joists at an angle but then again I think too much.

      As to the permitting I am starting to think that the potential consequences might outweigh any advantage to just doing what I want.

      I am looking forward to spending the rest of the season screwing boards down. At this point I am leaning towards giving up the plugging concept as that more than doubles an already massive work load.

      Cheers

      Bob

      1. User avater
        Matt | Jun 02, 2010 06:49pm | #14

        for some reason I was thinking 1" thick Ipe.

        I can see the need for 3/4" to be better supported.

        1. BHosch | Jun 03, 2010 12:55am | #16

          ipe

          I understand. It is 5-1/2 inches wide though and amazingly dense so I am a little concerned about it tossing the structure around as it will. It seems of pretty good quality though.

          I am going with the 12 inch spacing. I does simplify all the connections except the decking and I think it will be rock solid.

    2. Piffin | Jun 03, 2010 05:59am | #22

      No Kidding!

      "can be somewhat difficult to get nailed properly."

      That's the understatement of the week, if not the whole month!

      IPE` spans a normal 16OC diag just fine. It is rated to 24OCexcept in the heaviest of snow load situations.

      "I'm surprised your contractor friend didn't suggest that."

      Not that a bootleg under the table hack would know things like that.

      1. User avater
        Matt | Jun 03, 2010 07:36am | #24

        Piffin:

        You said: >> IPE` spans a normal 16OC diag just fine. It is rated to 24OCexcept in the heaviest of snow load situations. <<

        Is that the 3/4" stuff or the 1"?

        1. Piffin | Jun 03, 2010 07:09pm | #27

          All I use is 1x4 at 3/4"

          All I use is 1x4 at 3/4"

  5. Piffin | Jun 03, 2010 05:33am | #18

    Just frame normally and then run the surface material at a diagonal.

  6. JohnSprungX | Jun 22, 2010 06:55pm | #30

    Does your AHJ have a web site?

    If so, maybe you could find out about the requirements and cost of the permit without having to wait in line and talk to them in person. 

    -- J.S.

  7. k1c | Jun 22, 2010 08:59pm | #31

    deck

    It looks like you've decided on the joist orientation, but I was just going to chime in with compare the cost of diagnal hangers vs. extra joists.  I would look at the joist spacing little more carefully, maybe search for engineer charts to see if you have to have 12" spacing.

    As for permits, I have done both, but as I get older, I am finding that getting the permit is less trouble.  I have said to the customer, too, about skipping the permit in order to save on cost and such, and I meant it with best intension.  But following the process is best way to protect yourself.  You are fined for little engineering mistakes and trying to skip the process, but you will have to respect the set back lines and such.  Hope it helps.

  8. BobR71 | Jun 28, 2010 06:59pm | #32

    O Boy

    You are definitely headed down the wrong road! First of all doing structural work without a permit or drawings is a huge mistake. The permit/inspection process is there to help amd protect you. Secondly you dont need to run the joists at a 45 degree angle to run the decking on a 45 degree angle. Hiring a framer is not necessarily the best option either. Ipe is expensive an takes a lot of time to install correctly so it performs well and looks good. You really need to rethink this project or you will regret it later and probably have to re do your deck.

    good luck

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