Greetings:
I’m gonna take you all through a deck and porch building project – pictorially…
First, a few basic specs for the job. Customer wants ~18×14′ deck converted to a screened porch and a new ~15×20 deck. I tried to sell them as many extras as possible, and the project ended falling somewhere mid mark. deck was cantilevered.
OK – without further a due, let’s dig some footers!!! There were 15 in all.
pic 001 – first day on the job. had to did by hand since the existing deck – porch-to-be framing had to be modified to support roof load, etc, especially since the deck was cantilevered and footers had to be dug up underneath the edge of the deck.
pic 003 – Of coarse, as luck would have it, the cable TV line went right were we needed to, but even though it was marked, it’s hard not to damage those little suckers. Once it was nicked, I said let me see that shovel, and cut it off and out of the way with one whack. Pic shows the cable after the splice.
pic 004 – another view showing where the existing deck cantilever was that necessitated redoing the girders under the deck.
pic 10 – concrete poured up to depth marker – a piece of surveyors ribbon nailed to the side of the footing. BTW – we rarely form footers here in Carolina – our clay does it for us 🙂
Replies
OK - assuming footers won't spark much interest, let's move on to floor framing...
Pic 001 - Brad is makin some sawdust.
Pic 002 - Hadish doing some back-filling and grading... right background you can see the new and old deck posts on existing deck.
Pic 003 - Deck floor all framed out.
Pic 006 - Shows framing to accommodate posts for railings (not the way I normally do it) and posts that will support a ~12' long angled bench seat.
Pic 008 - deck is actually free-standing. I couldn't really attach to the house as there was a cantilevered bay window. Our code won't allow us to attach to a cantilever. Since it's free standing, it needs diagonal bracing. Since there is a cantilever in the floor framing, x joists are automatically required - no 2x8s.
pic 010 - shows bay window and how I spaced the deck out from the house a bit to allow for drainage. I nailed some little PT 1x2s to the house with SS finish nails and then we framed right up to them. The deck is actually attached to the house, only superficially, via 3 through-bolts.
Pic 011 - Another view of the diagonal bracing. I had to go to special trouble to get ground contact rated lumber for the diagonals since the .40 isn't commonly available in the ACQ cr@q. BTW - you left coast boys don't get our SYP lumber confused with your incised treated lumber... Our code requires 5/8" through bolts. They don't mess around! For the most part, lag bolts aren't allowed anywhere unless they are engineered. The double joist on the left is 1) to create the rail post pockets, and 2) to support the decking board that will form the top step. This board will be perpendicular to the rest of the floor boards.
Pic 15 - All decked out. I tried to sell the customer trex decking, but since he wanted to keep his original deck, trex would have sent him past the point of diminishing returns from saving the existing deck. We built a at grade platform for the bottom of the steps. It is backfilled with crusher-run gravel (sometimes called ABC).
when i looked at 008, i couldn't figure what that diagonal was doing... then i went back and read the dialogue again....ok...........
anyways.. lookin goodMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I take it that the support post just sat on top of the concrete footing, not embedded in the concrete, thus the x bracing?
Yes and no. The support posts are just sitting on the concrete - with "post foots" as a buffer. In NC I have never seen posts attached to the footings for residential decks or porches, although it may likely be required in costal zones. The diagonal bracing is required because this is essentially a free standing deck. Per our NC flavor of the IRC code diagonal bracing is required so as to provide lateral stability if the deck is more than 4' high or if it is not attached to the house - which this one is not structurally attached to the house. Our code is looser than some states in some areas, but tighter than some states in other areas. For example, lag bolts are not acceptable except on hand rail posts.... not on X bracing nor for attachment to the house. BTW - On a recient trip to MN, I saw no x bracing on anything.
I never imbed posts in concrete, the reason being that I have found when replacing old decks that the only posts that were severely rotted were those imbedded in the footer concrete.Matt
Not getting much interest here, so I'll just post some pics of the (nearly) completed project:
Matt
matt.. looks pretty elegant...
coupla things... is your decking matl PT SYP ?... seems like very nice work for such a so-so decking matl..
nudder ting.. how do you know you are not getting much interest here?
is there someway you can measure hits ? or are you referring to nobody commenting..
if you want feed back .. you might get more feedback over in quittintime.. take a look at their construction gallery..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike. Yes, it is SYP - PT. Not sure what the problem is around here (in NC) but it seems like no one wants to spend the money for quality workmanship and materials. I'll find the right clientele, it'll just take a while to get hooked up with the right kind of customers. I go look at $500k homes and it is nearly always SYP. Ya gotta go to the $800k to $1mil homes to see something different.
I was supposed to go for a bid tomorrow and then today the guy sends me an E-mail telling me that he has a bid for the sc porch and large deck for $6k - I sent him back and thanked him profusely for not wasting my time on a "free estimate" (in so many words...) and told him that without even looking at it I could tell him that I couldn't do it for less than 2x or 3x that price. It is a $300k house (internet tax records).
I'm getting to the point where on the first visit, I take down the basic project specs, and then I throw out some slightly high ballpark figure and just tell em "give me a call back" if you have any interest and we will talk some more and I'll give you a written bid. And they don't get any plans until they sign a contract. Seems to be getting rid of some of the tire kickers and bottom $ people, but not sure if it is the right way to do business. Also I look at internet tax records and won't go on a bid on houses below a certain value...
Today though, I went for a second meeting with a couple who want a complete Trex deck. I threw out a ballpark figure, and they didn't to seem to flinch, and even said they definitely wanted the wood grain decking boards (Trex Accent) even though it would run $1.5k more than the smooth. The guy is a commercial painter and we had a long conversation about pride in workmanship and he has also gone and looked at one of my other projects. Re the interest thing, I was just going on the few to no comments. I know it's not exactly fine home building, but I thought at least some of the DIYs would have some comments/questions.
Have a good one,Matt
just gong from regular Trex to Accent adds $1.5K ?...must be a large one..
are you a Trex Pro ? we get a lot of inquiries from their web site... Pro Deck is a Trex Pro also..
try hitting my zip code on their site as if you were looking for a contractor ( 02835)
another thing... if they are interested in Trex , sometimes it's because they are very "green" conscious... Trex is about the only one that uses recycled plastic.. most use virgin plastic because it's more consistent..
also.. if they can afford Trex they can afford some of the more exotic woods too
where are you in NC.?... our daughter & SIL are in CharlotteMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'd like to sell a porch or 2 with an ipe floor. My thinking that the periodic re-sealing would be less often in a covered environment. But I hear stories of it being hard to work with. One guy told me that he was gonna use the Eb-ty hidden fasteners with the grooved edge ipe and just couldn't get it to mate up right with the plastic biscuts. They ended up using ss trim head screws... This kind of thing will be reflected in my labor estimates.
Good selling point (to some) on the Trex recycled materials.
I'll take a look at the Trex-Pro thing.
I live in Raleigh NC Matt
Here's a coupla questions for you....Was the ceiling vinyl or regular beadboard...looked like vinyl to me. Looked very nice too. I take it the wiring was housed behined the ceiling batten strips?
One last question....Your finished deck looked very nice indeed, so please don't take this wrong...but, in my area, everyone HATES lattice trim placed underneath a deck. The lattice looked very appropiate in your case, but alas, no one wants that look around here anymore; nomatter how appriate it may be.
When faced by a client who does not want lattice, what are some of the other alternatives that you commonly offer?
Iv'e done board on board type fencing for the skirting, and have also done stucco for skirting....I like lattice just fine, but am always at a disadvantage when the client tells me " no lattice..." so I counter with," Well, what would you like to see?" and then they reply, " Aw, I really don't know... anything but lattice....what do you suggest?"
And there- in lies my problem...I only have approx 3 styles for the client to choose from...I'm hoping maybe you have a few goodies I could include for my next encounter.
Thanks.
Davo
Davo... maybe they just think lattice only comes in the LARGE diagonal pattern..
for about $40 a 4x8 , we cn get a smaller square pattern that is much thicker than the typicalMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The ceiling is indeed vinyl. I'm surprized you you could get that from the marginal quality low res pic. You have a good eye. In person, I'd wager that no one other than builders/carpenters, etc would know that it is vinyl. That was the reason I did the faux coffered ceiling - to hide the plastic ends (no -J-channel) and make it so there was no but joints in the field. There is a small attic above for the wiring, etc.
Re the lattice, I think it's a sothern thing. Pretty much all you see around here. Maybe a ventilation thing. (let's not go there :-) Mid end houses have it installed between brick piers on their decks. Sometimes even on the front porch. The average homeowner just tacks it up with exposed edges (barf!!). Re southern things, some time back I posted a pic of a coffered ceiling I did in a family room - had a ceiling fan right in the center. Every one here agreed that the ceiling fan had to go. For coarse, I can understand that someone in SD, for example, would have less appreciation for a ceiling fan... That's one of the things I like about BT - you get to see and talk about building styles and techniques that are totally uncharacteristic to what I'm used to. I like the square lattice that Mike showed better, although the square lattice in general is pretty uncommon. I like the square because I think it looks more traditional, and it's just something different. Matt
Davo, re: skirting, I have constructed mortared, masonry skirting to match the exteriors of dwellings. Is certainly more costly, but looks nice, and permanent.
zbalk
Now I can see how that vinyl doesn't sag, that's one solid ceiling framing system!
Personally, I like PT, well, I liked the old stuff. We have place here that treats and sells #1 prime stuff. Lot more character than plastic.
I'll let you know if I get another ipe job. Last one was screwed and plugged, and was about 1200 sq'! Man, that stuff is heavy.
Your finished job looks sweet. Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Where/who is the place that sells the #1 PT stuff? Asking since I know that I live not too far from where you are.
If you were doing a ipe job, I'd really like to stop by during the installation, just to get some of the finer details. Like I said above, I'd like to sell this product to someone... Matt
Matt,
It's Tarheel Wood Treating, 467.9176. 10309 Chapel Hill Rd/Hwy 54 Morrisville. Your side of RDU. They'll pressure treat anything wooden, so, don't stop by with any impure thoughts<G>
Hey, today would be a day for working on a deck, eh? I'm taking the catamaran out to Jordan Lake. Be on a different kind of deck!
Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Yes, I "shop" at Tarheel Wood Treating. I think they cut out most of the upgraded stuff they had other than the #1 1x material. They do have several lines of composite, sell ipe and are pretty knowledgeable on that kind of stuff. One thing that disappoints me though is that they don't sell anything but the .25 treated stuff. No ground contact if you have a need, and personally, I think that we are all going to find out in 5 or 10 years that the public was sold a bill of goods by the lumber industry and this .25 ACQ stuff is either going to rot right off of peoples houses or they are gonna find out it is just as (potentially) harmful as the CCA was suggested to be. Matt
I was following your project.The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
I'm interested. That is one sweet looking deck!!! I would be more than happy to have a deck like that. Throw in an outdoor hot tub and I'd be a pig in mud.
Also, I figured that PT = pressure treated. SYP = what?
Southern Yellow PineThe awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
As Ben said, SYP = Southery Yellow Pine. In the SE, maybe even in the entire east, most all PT lumber is SYP. I think they use it because is has good strength (more than SPF - Spruce/Pine/Fir) and SYP absorbs the PT chemicals better than most. The down side of SYP is that it tends to warp more than some.
Matt
Edited 8/5/2004 8:14 am ET by DIRISHINME
Matt-
Thanks for the time and effort you spent putting together this informative thread. Those pics speak volumes."sobriety is the root cause of dementia.", rez,2004
"Geodesics have an infinite proliferation of possible branches, at the whim of subatomic indeterminism.",Jack Williamson, The Legion of Time
NP Rez. Thanks
Attached are a few construction pics of the ceiling. Not very good, but you can see the 2x3 backing for the ceiling and then the vinyl install im progress.
BTW - don't bother calling OSHA about the non-approved scaffolding - it's long gone ;-)
Matt
I think that every place east of the Rocky's SYP is standard for PT lumber.
Hi Matt
I like your porch and deck. Did you make up the latice, or is that a ready made product? Is the latice also PT SYP, and what product did you finish it with?
We are thinking of a small Trex deck off our loft with PT joists, but is there something better than PT for framing?
kestrel
Edited 8/6/2004 10:56 pm ET by kestrel
The lattice is store bought - not sure if it is SYP. Lattice doesn't have grade stamps on it like lumber does. I don't paint/finish - I'm paint brush challenged... :-) I recommended to the customer that he stain after a few months.
I don't have anything other than SYP to recommed for framing an outside deck.Have a good one,
Matt
Thanks Matt,
I haven't seen anything other than the diagonal lattice available locally. Yours looks so much better, we may try copy it.
But "paint brush challenged"? Hmm -- maybe you haven't found the right brush stuff yet.
kestrel
>> most all PT lumber is SYP. I think they use it because is has good strength
I always thought they used it because its the cheapest shiit going. There was'nt much of a market for it before pressure treating it.
Nice job by the way
Thanks Maverick.
Re SYP, actually, for untreated framing lumber, I think it is a little more expensive than SPF... and if, for example, you are building a house floor system and want a bit less bounce, you can use SYP (untreated) instead of the regular SPF. I have seen it specked there on prints, and also for ridge boards and hip/valleys. Can’t remember if a grade was specified.
Take a look at this: http://www.weldwood.com/wwinet/products/wood/msrlumber.nsf/0/c39ba0dc646390f08825690c007a946c/$FILE/MSR%20Lumber.pdf
BTW - just to keep things in conetxt, this was my entire statement: In the SE, maybe even in the entire east, most all PT lumber is SYP. I think they use it because is has good strength (more than SPF - Spruce/Pine/Fir) and SYP absorbs the PT chemicals better than most. The down side of SYP is that it tends to warp more than some.
Matt
Edited 8/17/2004 4:58 am ET by DIRISHINME
Referencing the chart. If you notice select and #1 grade score high. The grade that we see pressure treated is no where near that. I still think before pressure treating, SYP was'nt suitable for firewood.
I've seen some very nice SYP (untreated) floors. And like Dirishinme said it is stronger than SPF.
Jon Blakemore
Edited 8/17/2004 11:45 pm ET by Jon Blakemore
<I still think before pressure treating, SYP was'nt suitable for firewood.>
So we should be getting cheaper fire insurance, right?<G>
I didn't know any kind of pine was suitable for fire wood. Guess that's why we use it for framing, plywood, trim, stair treads and flooring. The stuff can definitly move, but part of being a carpenter is knowing how to play it.
Sorry you don't get the "good" stuff up in NE, but that's not a real great reason to diss all SYP.
Leadbelly liked it<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Yer right, all we get is the crap. Matter of fact if we requested untreated SYP the yards would laugh. Doug fir and spruce are the norm. Spruce is usually cheaper but not worth the trouble IMHO
SYP 1x6 T&G is a good interior flooring , like for summer cottages, etc...
and some of the framing i've seen with untreated syp is pretty rugged stuff..
around here we get only #1 or #2 or Select for our PT SYP..
if you hand pick and sticker it in a dry location for about a week before your project, you can usually cull the ones that are going to warp..
we also do this if we are going to paint the PT like we do for some our exterior stair postsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Very nice Deck and Porch!!! Were did you get the design for it? Aslo, did you make your own lattice?
Thanks. As far as the design, I designed it. The lattice came from a lumber yard that specializes in exterior materials. It was ~$26 which is about double what the regular diagonal stuff is, but I just wanted the project to look a little bit distinctive. Matt
Good looking job! I like the inboard railing posts. Makes for a much cleaner look. I also like the ceiling detail! I noticed that the porch doesn't appear to have a gutter. Was this per customer request or some other reason. I'm not sure how you could place a gutter with downspouts on the porch and not detract from the structure.
I live in N. VA and haven't seen the cross-bracing up here before but like the idea behind it.
Thanks for sharing!
--Rob
Yea, I put a gutter and downspout on it and I think it looks fine. Myabe after the pics were taken...? Done correctly, gutters can actually add to the architecture, although maybe not in the case of this porch.
Matt
looks like you sqeeked some trex in there after all, looks like the handrail cap and balusters are trex is that correct
Hey guy, I'll agree that just because we aren't talkin', don't mean we aren't lookin'! I think the deck looks great and the pictorial was worth it! Keep up the good work!
Aryn
All: Thanks all for the comments. Yes the railing tops and balusters are Trex. The customer wanted wide rail tops and I don't like using 2x6 for rail tops because they tend to cup and warp so bad when laid on the flat.
Richie: I'm assuming you mean the connection between the "foundation posts" and the floor system beam. Yes - there are some Simpson brackets at that intersection.
Others: Re the floor bracing, there is no code provision in our book for horizontal diagonals under the floor system, so I don't use them. Although they make some sense, when you have 25 or 30 deck boards fastened with 2 or 3 nails, 16" OC, I don't think the floor system is gonna rack. I just do what is in the code plus a little more. Re diagonal deck boards, I consider that more for modern style houses, and most of the homes in my area are more of a traditional style. Matt
On a "normal sized" deck you don't need X bracing if one edge is attached to the house and there is some sort of diagonal brace for the deck surface (either diagonal decking or a diagonal brace attached to the bottom of the joists).
Not sure what you are getting at with your statement re diagonal bracing, but what you say makes good sense. I just build em to our NC code - and our code does not have anything about the floor covering (diagonal floor boards - or whatever), or the size of the deck. This particular deck is not structurally attached to the house, which makes it essentially a free standing deck, which, under our code needs diagonal bracing for the posts in both directions. If a deck is attached to the house, but the walking surface is over 4' above the ground, we need diagonal bracing parallel to the house. That is what our NC code says. You can do diagonal 2x6s like I did, X brace 2x6s (usually for higher decks), or 4x4 knee braces. All require HD Gal 5/8" bolt/nut/washers to tie the diag braces to the posts & girders. Also, you can get around diagonal bracing if you want to imbed the posts in the concrete several feet - which I would never do. A deck that is <4' tall and through bolted to the house needs no bracing.
Matt
Edited 8/6/2004 5:14 am ET by DIRISHINME
Was basically referring to this:
> Per our NC flavor of the IRC code diagonal bracing is required so as
> to provide lateral stability if the deck is more than 4' high or if it
> is not attached to the house
In particular the fact that the bracing is required for decks over 4' even if they ARE attached to the house. This may be code where you are but there's no technical need for it if the deck floor is diagonally braced.
I've seen (and felt) high decks with fairly large (and ugly) knee braces that still wobbled badly since they lacked a diagonal on the floor.
I'm missing something. Diagonal bracing here is a board bolted to the posts and the beam above diagonally between the two. If I am reading you right you nail a piece of lumber (size???) below the fllor joists diagonally across them. Like diagonal bracing in a wall but in this case not let in and on the bottom of the floor framing. Is this correct? What size lumber do you use? 2x4 or 2x6? Do you just nail it and how many joists min imum do you cover? I'd love to eliminate the diagonal post to beam braces.
Thanks.
Richie,
One way you can help to eliminate the post bracing is to fasten a 2x4 to the bottom of the joists, from the ledger to the opposite corner. If your posts are sturdy you can leave the post bracing off.
Jon Blakemore
Yes, a diagonal just nailed across the bottom of the deck. I'd use a 2x4, though probably a 1x4 or 1x6 would work. It should run most of the diagonal width (maybe all but the rim joists) in one continuous piece, or if two pieces are needed for the length then lap them side-by-side for at least two joists. Nail securely to every joist.
Or just install the decking on the diagnonal.
If you do this, and one edge of the deck is securely fastened to the ledger, no knee braces should be needed. (Of course, inspectors may insist on knee braces, but that's a different issue.)
well now you've shamed me into it ...
I've been quietly looking at yer pictures ...
I even stole one to show the wife what I meant by ... putting that same beadboard that's on the walls ... on the ceiling ... what'da ya mean you don't know what I'm talking about?
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
wish i would of done the fake coiffer thing on the porch i just built. It didnt even occur to me. What do you figure the extra expense was ? I used J channel and that is the only part I dont like on the whole $15,000 porch. Are your coiffer boards vinyl or wood. I ask because most of the time I am requested to do a maintenance free job. I am not done with mine ye tbut the ceiling is done. Waitng on widows to come in. the pic is near completionAn inch to short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
Your porch looks nice. Is it insulated/heated/cooled? I had done a bid on one with a kneewall like that and the customer really wanted me to do it, (long story) but we couldn't come together on a price.
Re the ceiling, couldn't really say how much extra the coffered portion was, but I'd say about $600 for material and labor. The materials were a bit high since I used Azek cellular vinyl trim boards for the "beams". And, with that arrangement I ended up installing crown mold too. I too wanted reduced maintenance for the customer, but being my first time using Azek, didn't know that much, and it turned out that the "boards" needed to be painted to cover up the putty on the nail holes. I'm hoping that the paint on the boards will last a long time, as Azek claims it does due to the fact that there is no moisture cycling of the material since it is impervious to moisture.
The whole reason I did a coffered ceiling was that I wanted no end joints showing on the vinyl bead board panels, and the porch was wider than the bead board panels (6"x12'6") came. I used the same material on my front and back porch, but the widths were only 8' and 12' (respectively), so it worked out good. I didn't use J-channel, but rather 1x material wrapped in coil stock - see pic on this post: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=44046.9 The 1x material conceals the end gaps on the vinyl bead boards, therefore, on J-channel is necessary. I had a guy do the metal, and he was a magician with a roll of coil stock.
Matt
no heat or cooling. It is insulated, and as i said STILL waiting on windows they were supposed to be here today. Thank you for hte compliment. The final price on this one was 12,900.00. The floor is concrete Not sure price diff if you do wood. Hope you can come to tems with HO. I will try to take a detailed pic of the interior knee wall I am very proud of how it turned out.An inch to short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
I just saw the photos and wow!!! It looks awesome. Keep up the great work. I guess the posts holding the beam for the roof bear on the new outside beam right? How did you attanch them? Simpson post bases?