Replies

1. 
   johnharkins | Dec 10, 2003 10:30pm | #1

   Phat  I think you are in for some good feedback to your question

   I've seen or worked w/ most of the woods - synthetics and I'm an ipe fan

   endorsements like the Florida Dept of Interior ( or the like ) opting for ipe after trying just about all the materials  over extended periods of time   and also the New Jersey shore gambling center ( name forgotten ) apparently used ipe 30 or 40 yrs ago on their boardwalk and is in great shape

   both of these endorsements I've gleaned from this site and I hope  I'm 80% plus on in attributing them to proper places and organizations

1. 
   user-6887089 | Dec 11, 2003 10:25pm | #2

   thanks john,

   priced ipe once and it's sky-high. 

   I just don't see how it's cost effective for a large scale project, even if it lasted twice as long as PT.  Really looking more at synthetics right now.  Any thoughts on those ?

1. 
   Piffin | Dec 11, 2003 11:25pm | #3

   If you were looking at Ipe` under one of the designer labels, then try shopping the price out a little more. I don't find it to be too bad.

   In the composite woods, correct deck has got my attention. using it right now on one. It is harder and more consistent in thickness and texture than Trex is. I comes in a few colours too.

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   user-6887089 | Dec 11, 2003 11:44pm | #4

   Excellence is its own reward, but public money never goes far enough.

2. 
   MojoMan | Dec 11, 2003 11:50pm | #5

   Have you priced other composites? I've used Trex and Evergrain. The Evergrain is nice, but significantly more expensive than Trex. I wounder about the durability of some composites in high-traffic areas because the simulated wood grain may erode away. A local lumberyard here put Trex on their enrty steps a few years ago and it has held up quite well under thousands of feet. It's not beautiful, but it's still there.

   Al Mollitor, Sharon MA

3. 
   xMikeSmith | Dec 12, 2003 12:45am | #6

   Phat... Trex... the original and still ticking....

   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   user-6887089 | Dec 12, 2003 01:14am | #7

   Thanks Mike.

   It's been a while.

   Nice pictures, so don't take this wrong, but trex just seems sooooo plastic ish.

   Used any of the others with a more wood-like, higher fiber content ?

   Saw one called "tendura" but color was only on surface.  Think celotex might make one ?

   Would be nice to find a cement based / synthetic fiber / integral color / with grain product.

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Dec 12, 2003 01:22am | #8

   tendura is nice... but i was looking at their T&G  .. looks like fir flooring..

    me... i like the  "plastic look " of Trex...  and i love the low maintenance..

    we've done Ipe'... nice.. but the material cost is  higher..  and the labor cost is doubleMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   user-6887089 | Dec 12, 2003 01:32am | #9

   i'm with you on the ipe.

   i worry about the surface color coming off the tendura.

   this is a large scale public use project

   many many feet, no maintenance, fast easy install but is a historic site and needs to look more wood like.

1. 
   johnharkins | Dec 12, 2003 03:52am | #10

   All  good comments and it ultimately is a very subjective decision - aesthetic preference

   There is no one I have more respect for on this site than Mike Smith but I don't go for his choice in this matter

   I'm wondering what factors you're using to flat out say ipe is very expensive.

   I think they are all expensive but maybe not so different as they appear from the surface  -  now my olde ( before ipe ) favorite clear C or D grade western red cedar 2 X 6 does not justify the obscene cost

   I have no idea where you are but my Seattle supplier sells ipe ( I have never seen a knot ) for 5/4 X 6 w/ groove $2.30 / lineal foot ***  5/4 X 6 no groove $2.20 / lineal ft.   ***  1 X 6  no groove $1.50 / lineal ft.       ---  that is free delivery to me 35 miles to the south and there guy unloads it and stacks it where  I want  ** that can be the most difficult part of the job and one I often don't consider  - thank god on this one we don;t have to consider - it is heavy and I'm usually buying 18s & 20s

   sorry if I'm getting off course   where I find ipe gets real expensive is the use of ebtys- - if you don't use them and screw from the top there is no reason ( other than maybe predrilling ) it can't go down as fast as pressure treated you mentioned

   qualities ipe has that none of composites have   innate strength!   perhaps not for public consumption or if dealing w/ code not appreciating its prowess    but you could span 36" w/ that 5/4 X 6 with no problem and your progeny can walk on it in 50 yrs

   to top it off you could get some Brownies, Scouts, student ASB group or the like to come through after w/ some glue and sawdust and fill the screwholes and sand the surface and you will have more of the "public" utilizing this beautiful addition

   if you're not asleep by now 5/4 material demands few fasteners - alternate sides of X 6 every 24"  will do ( very stable )   the 1 X material  less so but possibility of large span

   feliz navidad to all   thanks John

2. 
   johnharkins | Dec 12, 2003 03:59am | #12

   you probably have me on ignore by now but the materials I use   - I know they have another store in Portland ( Crosscut Hardwoods ) and the wood is shipped from Brazil to the northeastern shores and then to us out west

   maybe a better price in NE

3. 
   xMikeSmith | Dec 12, 2003 05:46am | #15

   john... i like Ipe'.....  would highly recommend it for the customer who wants wood..

    but it wouldn't be 5/4 x6.. it'd be 5/4 x 4.. when it's that pretty, i like the appearnace of 5/4 x 4...... and we use a  trim head SS screw, which has to be predrilled.. very slow.. go to fast  and you snap or strip screws.. or you snap driver bits.. the material costs a lot more than Trex.....

   Merante' is a good choice for wood.. there i might use a 5/4 x 6...

    i personally don't like the alaskan cedar.. some of our customers love it..

   in the no maintenance quest.. i like Trex... the price differential between Trex and PT  SYP is about the cost of one application of deck stain.. which still will not stop PT SYP from checking , splitting & splintering..

   if i think of it.. i'll look up Ipe" cost... which we get from Liberty Cedar.. theirs is now KD.. which alleviates some of the end checking..

   here's an ipe' with an outdoor indoor shower grate...

   and a RC privacy screen.... with some uplights being cut into the declk for dramatic lightingMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   
4. 
   BillW | Dec 12, 2003 06:15am | #16

   I just did my first Ipe deck (rebuilding a porch).  It was a joy to work with, not really that hard (yes, pre-drilling was a pain, yes I snapped a few stainless screws), but all in all it was well worth it.  Paid around $2 a square foot for 1x4 - delivered. (I did a lot of shopping around - ended up at Downes & Reader in Stoughton MA - very happy with them).  Check out photo - can barely see fasteners when standing on it, and I haven't even filled the holes yet.

   I have no idea what Trex and other synthetics cost, but I guess you have to add in for more robust framing.  Certainly not the case for Ipe - this stuff is hard as a rock.

   
5. 
   xMikeSmith | Dec 12, 2003 06:23am | #18

   elegant , Bill... that's the corner detail i wanted to use...but the architect and owner overruledMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   
6. 
   ProDek | Dec 12, 2003 07:41am | #19

   Great job Bill I like the herring bone patern......"Rather be a hammer than a nail"

   Bob

7. 
   johnharkins | Dec 12, 2003 11:09am | #21

   Phat  you can't get a much better review and illustration of decking materials in the wild than you have here    great photos/design by Bill & Mike  herringbone to lattice screens to grates   presto

   and as Pro dek says trimbutcher   your belt sander will take those plugs down faster than you can imagine

   one thing to mention is if you're going composite is to go w/ those w/ more plastic as opposed to those w/ less  huge durability difference

   I'm sorry/bummed to hear ipe is slippery when wet.  I've been walking on it a lot lately when wet and have not met that slip but I know you only have to do it once.

   Mike  I think you mentioned posting prices for trex    I hope you or Pro Dek would do that   -  thought I remembered something app  $1.35 / ft the  X 6 material                           ** the 1 X 6 ipe starts at $1.50 / ft and if purchasing enough gets down to $1.42 or so

   again thanks for those pics   Mike is that a profin type finish on your privacy screens

   you guys talk of public money   our town  cut the street lights on all the old series light systems to save money and figure out how they were going to pay for the new ones  ** there was an enormous outcry from the citizenry demanding streetlights and our dumbfounded council finally relented ( many were not re-elected )

   on the waterfront side of the new glass museum ( blown glass, Chihuly etc. ) there are some unique steel framed ipe benches that you can pivot so you can sit looking at the museum then get up and roll for waterfront viewing   no street lights but ipe for benches?    salud  John

8. 
   BillW | Dec 12, 2003 01:53pm | #22

   Mike & Bob - Thanks for the feedback - coming from you guys it means a lot.  The herring bone was inspired by FineHomeBuilding #106 (Furniture Grade Deck).  I think the thing that made it work was getting a carbide roundover bit to make the ends of the boards exactly match the existing round over on the edges.

   I haven't encountered any slipperiness (yet) - I wonder if it might relate to the choice of finish?  Mine is unfinished right now -  still pondering what to do there.  A good general question for folks out there might be this:  how is your Ipe finished, and is it slippery?  Maybe there's a correlation to a particular brand of finish (I'm considering Penofin or TWP).  I HAVE noticed that if you get Anchor Seal on the surface, it's like grease when wet, but that's easy enough to avoid, and has nothing to do with the Ipe.

   By now we've all seen references to large scale projects such as Atlantic city boardwalk, unfinished and installed for 30-40-50 years.  Phad, I guess I would dig into that a little to make sure it's not just a legend - if confirmed to be true, I would think it's pretty compelling.  (I hope it is - that's what finally swayed me to use Ipe).

   On the subject of filling / plugging the holes - I intend to use the technique recommended by John Hyatt - urethane glue with sawdust on top.   Certainly not going to cut plugs - there's about 1500 screws in my 600 sq ft deck.  Has anyone else tried this technique? (sorry to hijack the thread!)

   Bill.

   
9. 
   BillW | Dec 12, 2003 01:56pm | #23

   Mike - I forgot to ask - how did you secure the columns to the deck?  There's no visible sign of fastners in your photo.   That's the next step in my project, once the weather breaks.  Thanks, Bill.

10. 
    xMikeSmith | Dec 12, 2003 02:42pm | #24

    the ones supporting the  roof have solid blocking . posts under the Ipe'... then the PT plug is screwed to the deck and the column goes over & gets screwed to the plug..

    the ones supporting the Pergola / screen  slip over 4x4 buried 4' and framed to the deck...Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

    
11. 
    BillW | Jan 05, 2004 09:53pm | #25

    Mike - I finally got a break in the weather after xmas and installed my columns - got them from Chadsworth (1-800-COLUMNS) ... they are made of a composite of epoxy/fiberglass/marble dust.  I took your idea (from the photo you attached with the PT plug) and decided to tweak it a little - I figured I would lose my mind trying to cut 18 round plugs (one top & bottom for nine columns) ... so i cut equilateral triangles instead, figuring they would offer about the same lateral resistance. The nice thing was that I cut them just slightly oversized, then just buzzed the tips of the triangles to get a snug fit inside of the columns.  I jacked the beam up, screwed the triangles in top & bottom, positioned the column, and let the weight down - worked perfectly.

    Asked about 10 kids (my teens and their friends) who were taking or had already taken high school geometry how to figure out the size of the triangle - finally gave up and asked a geek engineer friend of my wife, who instantly knew that each side of the triangle should be the radius of the circle times the square root of 3.

    So ... decking is done, columns are up, stairs are built (9 feet wide, cut 7 stringers so the Ipe is 16 inch OC, used Azek for the risers) ... still to go are the railings and some kind of decorative skirt (wife is debating wether she wants diagonal or orthogonal lattice work) .... I'm thinking about resawing the CVG doug fir 1x4s that I ripped out (100 years old) into 1 1/2 x 3/8 lath and making my own lattice, just because I can't bear to throw this stuff into the dumpster.

    Anyhow, thanks for the tip on the pT plug .... Bill.

12. 
    xMikeSmith | Jan 05, 2004 09:57pm | #26

    bill...sounds great...... we need pictures... c'mon.. show & tellMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

13. 
    BillW | Jan 06, 2004 12:57am | #27

    OK - ran out in the rain to take these ... I wish I had taken a shot of the attachment method before I pulled the jacks out ...

    The bases and top trim on the columns are loose right now - on the top, I'll screw it into the beam, but I'm waiting until spring so I can re-paint first - that trim piece will will go up about 4 inches.

    On the bottom, I intend to build a box around the base of the columns, about 27" high, to replicate the original look (the original had a 27" hollow box, with solid columns sitting on top of the box).  My columns are full length (beam to deck), so the box will be just cosmetic - it also gives me an attachment point for the railings.  I haven't worked out either of these yet.  The base trim is loose right now - I intend to slide it up the column, assemble the box under it, then let it down on top.

    I've only run the Azek in the area of the stairs so far - the rest can wait until spring.

    Bill.

    
14. 
    xMikeSmith | Jan 06, 2004 01:15am | #28

    bill,  nice work...  good scale....keep at it... want to see the next seriesMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

15. 
    BillW | Jan 06, 2004 01:21am | #29

    Thanks Mike - I can't take credit for the scale - just trying to reproduce what I tore down ... although i have resisted the temptation to save money by shrinking things like stair width or column size ... thanks for the positive feedback though ... Bill.

16. 
    ProDek | Dec 12, 2003 03:56am | #11

    If this is a large scale public use project I would definitely use Trex. It is proven and affordable.

    If you want the wood look use the saddle tan Trex.

    "Rather be a hammer than a nail"

    Bob

    
17. 
    ProDek | Dec 12, 2003 04:13am | #13

    Phat- Are you bidding on this project? You might want to get your local Trex Rep to come to the party.

    Another thing about Trex is that it is safe to walk on when it is wet.

    Ipe is not.

    I know because my front porch is Ipe. I wish it was Trex but it was already framed @ 16" o.c. for the previous cedar deck.

    I frame all my Trex at 12" o.c.

    "Rather be a hammer than a nail"

    Bob

18. 
    TrimButcher | Dec 12, 2003 05:01am | #14

    I don't mean to hijack the discussion, but...Ipe happened to be on my mind, then I read this thread.

    Bob, thanks, didn't know Ipe was slippery when wet.  You once mentioned that you plugged the screw holes on an Ipe deck.  Did you buy the plugs, or cut them yourself?  I tried to cut a plug with a carbide plug cutter in a low-speed drill press and the wood was smoking before I was half done.  Tough stuff!  And then what did you use to cut the plugs flush?  I can't imagine a typical steel flush-cut saw lasting more than a handful of plugs before the blade is dull...

    TIA,

    Tim Ruttan

19. 
    ProDek | Dec 12, 2003 07:45am | #20

    Tim, we bought the plugs from the lumber yard $.15 cents each. After installing them with Gorrilla glue we sanded them off with a Porter Cable belt sander using 80 grit paper."Rather be a hammer than a nail"

    Bob

4. 
   dIrishInMe | Dec 12, 2003 06:19am | #17

   While visiting Yellowstone, I noticed all their newer walkways were Trex.  They have a lot of walkways around old faithful and such, to keep people "on the path".  I kept thinking that whoever got the contract musta done well.  It kinda wears in a high traffic area like that - not sure how to describe it - maybe looses some of it's texture and becomes a bit more shiny.

   You mentioned it being a historic site; maybe do fascia boards, step risers, trim in wood and some of the railing components in wood too (assuming there are to be railings).

   Matt

   
   

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   Edited 12/11/2003 10:24:50 PM ET by DIRISHINME