This one’s for you design/build guys out there. I had a guy ask me recently what the cost range was on the “design” phase of a typical (as if) Kitchen Remodel — gut rehab with minor structural work. I realized I hadn’t the foggiest idea. I know some of you guys treat design as a “loss leader” and others try to make it a profit center, and I realize that will probably make quite a bit of difference. Still, I’d be curious what you experienced folks would see as a realistic range for something like that. Any takers?
Please know that I realize the variables involved (specific job, geography etc), and have seen these questions get skewered on the boards when asked by price shoppers. I’m in the game, I know the drill… just interested in some thoughts from guys who are doing it.
Thanks, as always, for your thoughts.
Brian
_____________________________
HomeBase
________ Kitchen & Bath Builders, LLC
Brian Roberts, Manager
Edited 4/2/2003 11:39:08 AM ET by homebaseboston
Replies
This probably seems simplistic, but it's my style and I've stuck with it for a few years now. Figure out (SWAG) how much time I'm going to spend ahead of time sketching, talking, price checking, etc to come to the point where HO and myself are both on the same wavelength and in agreement. X hours * whatever your time is worth. Give your own rough sketches to the archy and find out what the finished deal is going to run you for this project, and I'm assuming an architect is needed since your design phase is big enough to need to be a separate entity. A+B+10%= design price. I'm not particularly concerned with making design work a profit center. I spend enough time doing smaller bids that on something significant, I'm fairly content with covering the time it takes.
" Blessed are the forgetful: for they get the better even of their blunders" - Nietzsche
Brian,
Bid it like anything else, figure your time times your rate.
Here is the important thing - Be clear in your contract about what their money buys them. Put a limit on how many times they can go through the revision mill.
In my preliminary phase I...
- Draw the plan based on the the clients wants and needs as discussed in a meeting.
- Present the plan to the client for their review.
- Revise plans based on clients comments.
- That ends the preliminary phase. If further changes are requested by the client it is at an hourly rate.
I then proceed into construction documents.
- Any changes in this phase are billed at my pre-specified hourly rate.
My newest requirement is that I receive my preliminary payment in full up front.
Then I receive my construction document payment in full up front prior to starting that phase.
I changed my practice because I will be filing a lawsuit on Monday for nonpayment.
WAHD
I don't think a kitchen remodel is necessarily that much simpler than building an addition, for instance, so I don't charge any less. I generally figure my design costs to be between 2-4% of the gross cost of the project, or what I estimate (SWAG) the gross cost of the project to be. If I thought it was a really simple project, I might charge 2%, but most of the time it is 3-4%. I think that $1800-2400 is a pretty fair price for designing a nice kitchen that costs $60k. And its a lot less than what an architect would charge. People who are looking for free design probably should shop elsewhere, and they are definitely going to get their money's worth.
Edited 4/2/2003 7:15:53 PM ET by Nick Pitz
I've had a lot of archys come up with executable plans for 6-7%. They want fifteen and up for full involvement and supervision. That's where the cost savings comes in for design-buiild firms - in the execution.
I charge a 500fee plus the hourly rate and retrospectively I can say that I average close to that same six percent of the job budget for design. Average of three revisions.
Kitchens take a higher percent of the design time for a whole house job with good reason. A kitchen remodel only can easily cost more but then on high end kitchens the job cost will be high too so the percentage may still be the same. I've only been doing this way for maybe three years..
Excellence is its own reward!
we don't use design as a profit center, more as a selling tool..
on a typical addition, our fee is $3000.. non -refundable.. in 3 payments..with a seperate contract for the design.. and then another for the construction..
the design fee just reduces our overhead, it doesn't really cover all of our costs.... while we're in the design phase we get to know our clients and develop a strong relationship .. almost all of our design contracts become build contracts...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
$600 to $60K.
How many changes are ya planning on making?
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Guys, your insights are very much appreciated. I know that Mike and Piffin are both in my neck of the woods, so very interesting to hear how you both come at it. Couple of you guys mentioned kitchens being more of a PITA to spec, and that's been my experience too... just a lot of variables, even if the floor plan isn't changing much. I've been planning, going forward, to start charging for the design/spec phase if I get involved at that point, and it sounds like most of you guys are charging at least a couple/few grand up front. I just PM'd a high-end kitchen recently and had easily 40 unpaid hours in at the front end.
For anyone who wouldn't mind taking this a bit deeper: If/when you guys are billing yourselves hourly, what are you billing at? I was thinking around $45 - $50 an hour would be a low entry point in this market... my understanding is that most kitchen designers around here (Boston Area) charge $60 - 250/ depending on experience.
Anyhow, thanks again all.
Brian_____________________________HomeBase________ Kitchen & Bath Builders, LLC
Brian Roberts, Manager
I'm probably the smallest operation here...
but here's what I do.
I don't "charge" for kitchen design......I just work it into the price. I can kinda guess how long it's going to take for the basic design. It's the changes that add to the time..both up front and change orders along the way.
The change orders along the way are easy.....
I just play the game on the upfront changes. Sometimes win..sometimes lose. But to me..the over all cost/time isn't that much of a gamble.
I meet with the customer a time or two......show them what I've come up with.....pretty much get the desing nailed down as much as possible.....I use my own price books to spec it all out myself and price it up with my discounts....
I fully encourage changes up to this point......better to find out now than after we start...
Then...I take the customers and the plan with measurements to my cab distributor.....and have them draw it up and WOW the customer with the fancy CAD drawlings and walk thru.
All mine work is done as a floor plan drawn by hand on a big graph paper pad....and I can do the basic layout in just a few short hours.
If I was doing the whole design on the computer and spending more time...I'd come up with a new plan of action.
THis way...I get to design what I think works best......then the "professional kitchen designer" get's a quick review to catch anything I've missed..and the customer has one last chance to make easy changes...or switch things around.....
I don't mind a second set of eyes or another opinion. Most of the stuff get's built almost directly from my sketch pad...but I do general remodeling..and have a coupla big "kitchen only" places.....maybe like your's!....that end up being the usual competition..and their radio and TV ad's all say they offer "Free Computer Design".....and this way..I offer the same...only I didn't have to buy or learn the CAD.
Not yet at least...that's the next schooling..gotta wait till my wife finishes her degree...then back to night school for me.
I bill myself at my regular rates.....hourly at $45. High for a sole prop carp....midrange for a company charge rate...probably low for a designer.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
at the CGR design-build sessions last month, the class was about evenly split between those who charge separately for design and those who roll the cost into the total for the job completion. One or two charged for the design but credited that back when a build contract was signed or completed.
I think the least I have done on a design is about twelve hundred dollars.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Typical......$2,500.00 min.
And this is always over and above the job cost. Non-refundable. Never had a client blink............yet.......
hey mark... nice to see your smiling face
i saw one blink.. when i got to $5K... but they wanted a really complicated plan..
and another never gave a 2d interview when i wanted $2k to price their house from their plans...
but in neither case, did i invest 100 hours with nothing to show for it.. as i used to do in the past before i finally decided my time was worth money...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hey pal.......I wore your hat all over Florida last week. Had a great time...........
Yeah, Last summer I asked and received a design fee of $8,700.00 for a $220,000.00 addition. Best to get them to blink rather than to go without funds.
Or as a manager I worked for while selling cars would say...
when a new guy would ask what to tell the customers the first time they asked....
"How much?''.....
Tell'em sticker! Slap them back to reality first...then negotiate from there.
If someone wants a bid before making any selections...I give the allowances from the top end of the scale.....get's their attention....give a quick reality check that this stuff costs real money.
If they are tire kickers....they run away. If they are serious..we start taking away the fluff and fitting things into their budget.
This trick also gets to the root of the budget if they haven't been forthcoming with a real figure.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
If they blink on the design fee, they'll stink on the final payment. Design-build is a great way to qualify them..
Excellence is its own reward!