I,m looking for info/examples of strategies for dealing with snow in residential building, plowing it, the pros & cons of holding it on or shedding it from roofs, entryway design and details, etc. My searches on the web and on this site have yielded little to nothing. Search yourself, you’ll be surprised. There must be some published material on this! Specifically, I’ll be designing a house for a friend outside Burlington Vermont. Snow is one more item on the preliminary design list. Respectfully Luke Robinson, Architect.
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I don't know of any books. Your best bet is common sense and actually thinking about it. I have seen some pretty stupid things in this arena. Gable roof with the eave edge over the driveway? If the melting snow pouring water down on the driveway to freeze of run into the garage is not good enough for you, put a tin roof on it so all the snow slides down to block the drive and requires a second pass of snow removal one,two, or a week after the storm.
Try landscaping right up to the edge of the driveway. Great for snow removal. Or better yet build a beautiful stone wall along one or more sides of the driveway/parking area.
Common sense is your best guide.
Se4ems to me that there was an article or a letter about this in some issue of FHB in the last few years...sorry I can't be more specific, but the Lyme disease brain fog is thick tonight...
There were two - one on roofs, and one on driveway design - both mentioned snow country...
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
I remember the article in FHB about driveway design. The driveway ideas were good but the house that it served was a joke. Most of the snow from the house shed on the driveway. There was no mention about it in the article. That article was thus a joke because it did not take into consideration the design of the house and how it affected the driveway. Think about where the plow will push the snow. If it pushes it towards your garage door then it could damage the door. The plow should be able to travel perpendicular to the front of the garage door. Driveways should be less than 10% grade. The area of your driveway will profoundly effect the price of your snow removal contract.
A shingle or comp roof will hold the snow and it will not shed making more work for everyone. New homes are engineered to hold the weight of snow. The days of metal on weak 2x4 rafters on 2' centers are over. Weak roof framing used to depend on the snow shedding to save the house. There are many summer cabins that survived for years because of their tin roofs. A metal roof could unload and hurt someone. The impact from the unloading could shear off your deck. Heavy snow on a metal roof will crush seams ands ribs in valleys. Paint on metal will scour off and rust through eventually. Ribbed metal with screws will move in the summer and the screws will back out. You seldom see new homes with a metal roof in the Tahoe area anymore.
Ice dams are avoided with ice membrane. Your roofer should know how and where to apply it. The rule here is five feet in from the building line. So if you have a 2 foot overhang and a 12/12 roof then the membrane should be almost ten feet up the slope.
Think about where all the snow will shed. All entries should be on a gable end or under a shed roof. Shed roofs do not work unless they cover the entry and shed to the side. If they shed on the path or the steps then you will have problems.
Dormers should not be built too close together. Snow will build up between them and could rack them if it is a heavy snow year.
Chimneys and all vents should be near the ridge or else they could shear off from snow building up behind them.
There are many exceptions. Engineers can design chimneys that are down on the eave but they will have to be built with lots of straps and timbers and a giant doghouse splitter behind them. Dormers can be made close together if you build them solid with triple LVL girder rafters and heavy straps at numerous connections.
Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
You seldom see new homes with a metal roof in the Tahoe area anymore.
That's an interesting observation. That's not the case with most of big vacation homes I'm familar with in WY and CO, and you have me wondering if metal is on the way out for the reasons you listed, or if it's a regional preferance issue.
Perhaps it's the type of snow? Our snow is often powder and just slides off modern steel roofs like...well, like snow off a metal roof.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I saw a lot of copper roofs in Russia and Scandinavia. They don't have exposed screws, they're done with cleats nailed to the wood, and then the seams are crimped with the cleats in them. They're slotted on large sections to allow for expansion and contraction. If they use gutters, they're installed so that the outer edge is just a little below where a straightedge placed on the plane of the roof would extend to. That way liquid water will drip down into the gutter, but a sheet of snow that slides will mostly pass over it. Multi-story buildings often have extremely steep roofs, so the snow doesn't build up and fall off all at once.
Doors, of course, are on gable ends only. Windows are double or tripple glazed. Often they'll have large fixed lites with smaller casements alongside. Old buildings have casements with two sets of sash, inswing and outswing. Sort of permanent storm windows. Poor folks use the space between them as a refrigerator in the winter.
-- J.S.
The driveway design one was in FHB #118, Sept. '98.
nothing you probably don't already know . . . high slopes, snow clips, careful detailing the gutters so they don't rip out when everything warms and comes sliding over the edge, blah blah blah
DAAP '91 here :)
http://www.google.com/search?q=snow+%2B+roof+design&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official
Personalized Results 1 - 10 of about 1,310,000 English pages for snow + roof design. (0.30 seconds)
Here's a starter page
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http://www.ima-arch.com/services/article_roof/roofdesign_p1.html
second page
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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Try to keep the driveway as flat as you can.
Have the garage at 90 deg to the driveway. That way, Mr Plow can have a straight run to the end of the driveway, and the homeowners can learn to back in to the garage...having a straight driveway to a garage is a pain for plowing, the plow guy has to be good at backdragging, and with heavy snow it never works well.
Make sure you have an entryway or vestibule in the house - you can't believe the number of designs I see where the front door opens into the living space...where do your guests take off their boots, wet jackets, etc? And that influences the flooring, too. And it's nice to have some way of blocking the wind...nothing like sitting down and having a -20 wind blasting at you while people come and go...
HammerHarry has the best general advice, For specifics, watch the weather and when there is heavy snow in a resort area fly up and personally inspect houses in several locations, you will see what works and what does not. What looks good in the summer can be a disaster in the winter. WW
I just built a house in Michigan and spent 5 years designing it myself. During that time I lived in a house that was very poorly designed for winter and learned a lot from it! The new house, though larger and on a longer, sloped driveway, takes much less time to maintain due to the following features.All rooflines run the same direction (no valleys), 12/12 pitch. Garage entrance on gable end is a must. Snow falls from 12/12 2-story roof onto a 4/12 porch roof along both entrance sides of the house to avoid dangerous "avalanches" from steep roof. No steps up to porch saves a lot of shoveling time. Tight icynene foam insulation prevents icicles and the need to rake the roof (that alone makes it worth the money). No gutters, period; just 24" eaves and a stone border to absorb rainfall. Large mudroom also serves as a buffer to cold air upon entry. Tiled utility sink area for drying wet clothes and dirty boots. Plenty of closet space in mudroom for bulky coats. Big bedroom closets so no need to "switch closets" when the season changes.The only thing that would make it better is heated coils under the walks and driveway! Maybe someday.
You say no valleys. Did teh house with valleys have a metal roof? I ask, becasue with tin roofs you expect teh snow to slide off, bu twith valleys you can be disappointed.
For specifics, watch the weather and when there is heavy snow in a resort area fly up and personally inspect houses in several locations, you will see what works and what does not. What looks good in the summer can be a disaster in the winter. WW
Very good advice. Nothing is better to round out a good design than a little observation to go along with the other stuff.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Ski hill resorts are a great place to see what works and what does not. Lots of laughs too. Local carps forced to build trophy homes designed by Florida archys. Cars get crushed when roofs unload.
Thing about the stops that anchor snow on the roof (mentioned by someone else), is they're only good till they get covered over by the second or third storm. All you need is a glazed layer or a hoar frost layer on top of the buried stops, and the next storm layer will slab up then avalanche a few days later onto the driveway, and what/whoever happens to be there.
Funny story about not thinking ahead . About 20 years ago Westin builds a new hotle in Vail, CO. I'm going to say it is about six stories. Some moron spec'ed a standing seam metal roof with a pretty steep pitch. Well, every time it snows it lets go directly onto the valet parking area and front enterance. To this day they cordon of the entire front of the hotel all winter long.
Wake up call, Luke. Time to start reading and responding before your thread runs away from you...;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Looks like you've gotten a lot covered already. This thread is gonna be a keeper.A driveway on the north side of a house will take forever to melt off. South facing is best, if there are any options at all.Consider drift loading. Someone mentioned having all the snow off the main roof dump on a lower roof. That can mean one hell of a drift load on that lower roof.Someone else suggested over-designing the roof. That's fine, as long as you don't get TOO caried away and add a lot of unnecessary expense. If you use roof trusses, don't make the mistake of calling out larger chord sizes and assuming that would make the trusses stronger. The only way to FOR SURE make 'em stronger is to design them for more loading. I'd suggest letting the truss designer figure out what chord size is needed.Another thing I get with roof trusses is that people will occasionally want them 16" O.C. to make the roof stronger. But that also does almost nothing. Roof trusses that are designed for 16" O.C. spacing are designed for less loading overall. So it mostly just wastes money..If you design the landscaping, consider possible drifting scenarios. A 4' tall hedge row alongside the west side of a driveway will result in drifts 4' deep across the driveway if the wind is right.Setting something 20' back from the driveway will likely catch a lot of the drifting snow and keep it off the drive.Avoiding steep driveways has been mentioned, but it's worth repeating. A steep drive that's iced up can be impossible to ascend. It can also be impossible to stop yourself from sliding down it into traffic when you're leaving.
Recommend virtue to your children; it alone, not money, can make them happy. I speak from experience. [Beethoven]
Ski hill resorts are a great place to see what works and what does not. Lots of laughs too. Local carps forced to build trophy homes designed by Florida archys. Cars get crushed when roofs unload.
*chuckle*
That's for sure. While on vacation last summer we drove through Jackson Hole, WY and were amused at the contemporary houses that are starting to creep into the area. Some are good, some just collect snow.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Lots of technical reports available from the National Research Council of Canada, Institute for Research in Construction.
Go to:
http://index.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/cgi-bin/search-recherche.cgi?collection=nrc_exnet&form=irc_e&simple=&s_irc=&query=snow&scope=irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca
Edited 2/21/2007 12:57 am ET by Pierre1
What style of house will this be? There are many snow-country designs that work great, but don't translate well in some cases.
Steep pitches and slick roofs keep snow from building up.
Manage the path of snow falling from the roof with the use of dormers and changing roof lines.
Keep the snow that sheds off roofs away from traffic areas.
Avoid skylights, especially on the north facing side.
Watch the freeze/thaw prone traffic areas. If the entry is shaded it may stay icy for a long period of time and the transition between shaded and sunny areas is always the slickest since it freezes and thaws more often than the other areas.
If wind is an issue in that part of the world, although my guess is it probably isn't, there are another set of different, but connected issues.
It's better to have radiant heat in the sidewalk, entryway, or icy area of driveway and not use it, than to want to use it and not have the option. Insulate under the radiant heat or it will cost twice as much to operate. At the very least, radiant at the main entryway and steps seems like a no-brainer since that's where it would do the most good and it's a relatively small area.
Watching the snow fall while sitting inside sipping hot chocholate is always more enjoyable if there's radiant heat underfoot. Likewise, radiant will dry the interior of the entryway much faster than anything else. A place to take off shoes should have a few extra coils to dry and keep shoes warm. Run the radiant in the closests that may get wet clothes or shoes.
Regular concrete finishes are much easier to shovel than are stamped designs. Avoid bumps, changes in elevation and other such impedements to shoveling/plowing on all exterior flatwork.
Keep exterior electrical outlets near the parking area for plugging in car engine heaters, if cars in that part of the world use such things.
If you can swing it, an insulated garage with just enough radiant heat to keep the chill off will also melt any snow and evaporate water much faster than an unheated counterpart. Also, cars are much more comfortable to drive if they are closer to 50 degrees coming out of the (heated) garage, vs. 40 degrees.
Gutters, if used, should be well supported way beyond what most gutter outfits do as standard.
Manage water runoff since many days it will melt during the day and freeze at night.
If you build a roof so it holds snow rather than shedding it, make sure to build for a 100 year snow pack, rather than some yearly average. A few years back we had a freak spring storm drop enough heavy snow to break rafters that were fine for over a centry, and had some new buildings colapse under the weight.
One of the worst things you can do to a good roof is build it wimpy so the owners have to hire a highschool kid to climb up there with a sharp shovel and clear it off. Overbuild so the owners can sleep well at night without shoveling.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
If it works from a design standpoint, having the primary entrance from the driveway/garage on the south side of the house means that the sun will help melt the inevitable snow and ice buildup. My recent addition could only go on the north side and this time of year the ice never melts on the steps from the driveway to the house.
Having a mudroom/entry is not only a place to dump boots and wet clothes, but if it has a door to the rest of the house you can keep the arctic blasts from blowing into the rest of the living space. Radiant heat is nice in the muroom. It's nice to have warm boots. Make it big enough to store snowshoes, etc.
A couple of things I have not heard mentioned yet:
1. Consider the prevailing wind direction in the winter (in Vermont it blows from the northwest). If you have a lower roof next to a higher roof - say a one story garage attached to a two story house - you can get a tremendous snow buildup if the lower roof is on the lee side.
2. Be careful where you locate your vents (plumbing vents, heating exhaust vents and bathroom fan vents). It's easy for these to get covered by drifting snow if they are in the wrong place or are not high enough.
We just got 3 feet of snow here in Vermont and the above 2 items seemed to be the biggest problem.
Rich
A few more things to consider.
It's not uncommon to loose power here in Vermont.
Be sure house will accommodate this problem.
And the cold air will find any entrance.
When temperatures drop, piping on outside walls freeze also.
A friend built a house with radient heat in the concrete. Concrete froze and broke the pipes. No more radient heat, too many leaks to fix.
Metal roofs are ok, till you need to climb up there.
Mudrooms should be huge, in cold and wet climates, it's amazing what accumulates in there. And as waterproof as possible.
Garages turn into swimming pools, with the mess from cars on the floor. Also, extra space around the cars (or trucks) as getting in and out of a tight spot with winter clothes on is no fun.
Cold windows eat heat, triple glazing can help, storm windows also.
Crank out windows are nice till it rains and the water blows in.
Forced hot air heats the rooms quicker then baseboard or radiant.
Fireplace heat eventually dries out the floor area in front of it. Ruins wood floors and can cause the wood to catch fire eventually (don't ask me how I know this.)
Jeff
Easy, easy. The house is near Burlington, Vermont. Lots of ex-hippies and about as much snow as New York City.
Lots of ex-hippies and about as much snow as New York City.
True about the ex-hippies, but Burlington gets wayyyyyy more snow than NYC.
I grew up in Montreal, so I spent a lot of time in Burlington. Its a great place. In fact in the Fall, its hard to think of anywhere nicer than Vermont. You are right about NYC. I should have said Ottawa, but I didn't think anyone would know where it was. None of the houses there make any adjustments for snow. The subdivisions look like pretty well anywhere else in North America
Wow, This is only my second post. The first yielded little but not this time, bingo! Thank you for your responses. I'm a 20+ year subscriber. Luke.