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Fred,
You mentioned a heat source 20k btu/hr from a Monitor kerosene heater. That isn’t one of those moisture dumping heat cannons is it?
Just curious,
Phil
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Dear Fred,
I figured you wouldn't use a device that dumps unwanted moisture into a structure.
For anyone else that wants to know, I found a website for Monitor.
http://www.monitorproducts.com/
I'm looking for something to heat my garage (on demand) when I'm out there working. I definately want something that won't take away MY oxygen nor dump CO.
Liking Oxygenated Air,
Phil
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Hi Fred,
Bill is right, 4000K -4500K is more like outdoors, but wood looks sooooo good at 3000K. Looks like near sunset. There are several "consumer" flourescents with cri's in the 70s thru 90s, GE kitchen and bath and Phillips Home Light are two. The phillips are available in both a warm and a cool with about 85cri. I would only go with the cool (4000K) if there was a lot of window light mixing with it. 3200K would look nice too, if you can find them and they would match halogens well. Also the screw-in compact flourescents are around 3000K usually. p.s. How high is the ceiling?
*Fred - The thing that seems least "eloquent" is the wall system - toe nailing 2X6s on the girts and then a double layer of sheathing. I'm trying to envision a way to get thicker, compartmentalized walls (small enough to dense pack - which I have gathered is about a 12 X 24 space) and use less materials or at least do it quicker. So here's my goofy idea of the day: * Use housewrap or something as light and cheap and strong and create "tubes" by stapling or battening to existing girts; * Pump cells into the "tubes"; * Build an inner wall - perhaps 2X3 or 4 - flat if possible - at least 24 if not 32 on center (should be plenty strong enough with solid sheathing) say 10" from girts. (Could also be horizontal inner girts - since I don't yet see the footing for this wall in place.) May need some of the framing and or sheathing up before pumping tubes - but they should press against the back of this - lightly (ha!); * Now, with inner wall in place and braced top and bottom, dense pack the cavities between the tubes and the back of the inner wall. Being able to cover the osb with drywall should make this very easy - just core and blow and go to next horizontal cavity, then rock.Maybe this is too goofy but still think the walls and existing horizontal farming are not well resolved.Now - if you can do a floor that doesn't need the continous spread footings, etc., maybe with a shallow frost protected system - buried foam 2' down and out - you could save a chunk of time. How about screeding sand under floor, lay down sheets of XPS (sealing joints?), and glue ply over - or double layer of osb offset and screwed perimeter, stapled field? As I recall even the plain xpx is 5 or 10 psi - way good for 100-150 psf. Ever denser, Bill
*Oh - I left out the poly. I have doubts about the need for this in houses but it seems that in this building - with no plants or baths or kitchens - it would be particularily unneeded. True?
*Fred,My first thought is "GASP"!!! I do not believe that pole barns were ever meant to be transformed into finished and well insulated structures. Especially not when you are talking cheap.Some suggestions (other than stacking bales of hay around the entire building and going home)are as follows:for the ceiling, fur over with 2x4 layed flat and perpendicular to rafters. Space at 16 oc. sheath with plywood then glue and screw 5/8 drywall over. insulate it how you wish although I wonder how pricey that spray-on expanding foam product is. saw it on This Old House once.For the walls, you could run sole and top plates between your upright posts and frame in between and flush with interior face of poles. Then sheath with OSB and screw & glue on 5/8 drywall.How do you plan to seal your wall base against the dirt floor? will you need to use p.t. material at the wall bases?To beef up glazing in windows you may want to replace with insulated panes and/or fixed storm units over them.Also consider using iso board as solid backing behind OSB for added r-value. Don't forget to be sure you have adequate wind bracing throughout structure to keep sway down to avoid stress damage to interior finished surfaces. also glue all sheathing to framework to aid here.Lastly and most importantly.... say a few prayers before you start this one up because I think it'll be a bear. The bulk of savings on this project will probably be directly related to what you care to sacrifice out of your pocket on the labor end.Glad I'm not there,Pete Draganic
*Fred, Pete's ceiling suggestion of 2x4's laid flat, perpendicular to the truss bottom chords will also help stabilze the trusses, assuring they remain in a vertical plane as designed. Here's a variation, which may help: Try 2x3's or 2x4's as Pete descirbed, and then nail up 2x4's perpendicular to thier edge, forming a "strongback" sturcture which will help strengthen that 36" span, and still give you the 16"OC nailers you'll need. If you can then use 1/2" dw or 7/8" dw and skip the plywood, you might come out ahead on time and materials.Will we all be invited to the museum opening?Regards, Steve
*Dear Steve,The strong back concept is very appealing. I've been loosing sleep about these purlins sagging. The 2x4 T design would be very strong and go for 24" oc don't you thing?. We would need 20 per run times 16 runs to total 320 pieces. Gulp. I guess it would be worth a few minutes to set up a jig on the power miter for that. That would take $560 worth of fresh 2x4's and $100 of cutting time. Running 2x6's on 16" centers would cost $600. I noticed a pallet of 2x4 shipping dunage at Home Depot the other day and that waste would be perfect for the strong backs. So we might come out ahead with 2x4's if the 2 foot centers would carry the 5/8" dw. I'm going to use FireCode dw in any case where there is no plywood backing.And for sure you're invited to the opening on May 1st. This is quite the place if you like maritime history. And if you can't make that, maybe we'll have a Fine Homebuilding day, If we get this done, I'll be bringing a key of Molson for the party. (((maybe we could get them to take us out in the bateau, a Rev War reproduction battle ship)))Heading into the end game, Fred
*Fred, in my previous post, I meant to say "1/2" or __5/8" drywall" ... I don't know how my fingers punched up 7/8". I'll bet you knew that. The strongback could be in a "T" or an "L", and 24" OC could just work. Any chance you could test a mock-up between a couple of horses at ground level? Please keep us posted so we know what construction you finally select. Best wishes, Steve
*Fred, I'd envisioned using 12' lengths for the 2x purlin mateiral, overlapping the butts of adjacent legs by 36" to aviod "hinges" at joist crossings. As for fastening techniques, a framing nail gun will speed assembly, but maybe screws should be used to fasten the assembly to the underside of the joists. In some instances, I've used a nail gun to tack things into place before installing final fasteners. Others on this forum may be better qualified than I to address the assembly technique.Regards, Steve
*I like the wall detail better than toeing 2X6's but how do you dense pack those big uncompartmented cavities?
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Fred, WOW! This is so great to see I wouldn't care if it was a little slow, but its just fine from this end. The photos are ok in size, but a little dark. I can still figure it out so don't let it stop you from adding more.
Waiting with baited breath...
Lisa
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Fred: Tried to e-mail you. Can I have your FAX number, please?
Thanks for the progress pictures!
Steve
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Dear Friends,
I'm designing the retrofit of a boat museum building and need your help. The existing structure is a 30 X 60 foot pole barn. In order to provide a very stable indoor environment for large wooden objects (old boats), and keep the ownership costs of the building very low, we intend to develop a world class thermal envelope. That's easy enough. But we have to do this fine work for very little money. This is the sole, exclusive, and only point here: GREAT & CHEAP.
Goal: a constant 60F indoor temperature at -20F outside using only 20k btu/hr from a Monitor kerosene heater.
Existing conditions: The barn is of recent construction, has PT posts on 12 foot centers, a gravel floor with plenty of frozen soil, scissor trusses with a 4/12 inside pitch mounted on 36 inch centers, 10 foot walls framed with horizontal 2x6 nailers 24 inch oc, board and batten siding, twelve 2 x 2 foot single pane, 2 over 2 windows in groups of four across, seven 8 foot sliding barn doors, a cupola in a steel roof, and no bracing across the bottom chords.
Finished conditions: Fire rated dw interior, zero trim, continuous OSB under dw on walls for hanging displays anywhere, wood floor to be carpeted, all existing windows stay, all existing doors go, 2 emergency exits, 1 glass entry door with side lights, and lots of track lighting.
Schedule: Frightening
Budget: Ridiculous
For the walls, I planned to toe nail 2 x6’s inside the existing horizontal nailers. Then filling the crossed framing with dp cels. How would you get to R40 walls?
The ceiling is going to be heavy. With 5/8” dw and 3 pounds per square foot of cels on top, I’m worried about the dw sagging between those 36” rafter centers. How would you strap the 2 x 6 bottom chords quick, cheap, flat?
Obviously, the windows will need to be given some more glazing. How?
Then there’s the floor with no crawl space. We will definitely level and seal down the earth with a continuous sheet of Tu-Tuf. How would you frame and deck this floor to be flat and strong?
To commemorate your efforts, I will print each post and feed them into the insulation blower, so that your generous spirits will reside in the envelope far into the distant future.
Appreciatively, Fred
*FredL:Are the owners assuming they will never change the displays? Removing all the doors except emergency exits will make it very difficult to move the boats in the future. Good luck in meeting your objectives!
*Build engineered steel posts and beam supports and place every-so-often (as determined by PE) along the length of the building. Wrap the entire interior with poly--2 layers, one diag; one straight--install dw over poly, trim-out for windows and doors, install climate control to avoid excessive humidity. I think cyclic change in humidity is more damaging to OWB than change in temp. Double entrance doors to avoid heat loss to outside.Dual glaze the windows? Or, ixnay the windows--some of them-- replace with indoor spot lighting.For the floor: 2x sleeper grid over sprayed-on rubber layer over Tu Tuf sheeting. 2x12 layed diag. with layer of plywood layed square.Just an inexpensive guess.
*Fred: On a contractor's recommendation, our house in Alaska is being built with 2-3" of sprayed foam on the wall sheathing and on the roof air vent spacers followed by as much high-density fiberglass batting as fits in a 2x6 or 2x12 bay. So the more expensive foam serves as an additional vapor/air barrier and adds more R/inch but most of the volume is filled up with the cheap stuff (FG). This seemed like a good trade off between cost and performance.Since the structural strength of your building is already in place, how about this: Rather than use 2x6's, rip plywood or OSB into 8 foot lengths and use it as studs. Make really deep bays and fill them with FG batting. Your wood costs will be less, thermal bridging through the thinner FG will a bit less, and, with a deep bay, you can use cheap insulation instead of high R/inch stuff. The OSB interior pre-sheathing will be quite secure screwed onto the ply/OSB "studs". Where sheets meet will be tricky, but one or two 1x2's as a nailing surface will solve the problem of having a small target. Good luck on the project. -David
*Build a 2X4 or 2X3 wall 10" or 12"inside the structure 24" o.c. cover with poly with the seams caulked with Tremco sealant and fill with DP cels. This will give an easy R30-R45 wall with almost no thermal bridging. Also insulate around the foundation at least 2 feet with 2" or thicker extruded foam. Use flourescent lighting with a cri of at least 70 and a color temp of about 3000K. ( I used to work in a museum myself, I know the budget very well.)
*Fred,You mentioned a heat source 20k btu/hr from a Monitor kerosene heater. That isn't one of those moisture dumping heat cannons is it? Just curious,Phil
*For boats I'd rather see a 4000 or 4500 kelvin - more like out-of-doors. There are some lamps that get near an 85 cri - really nice. I stuck some samples in my house - first time I ever really liked flourescent. Don't use cheap track and retrofit spots with "energy saving" pl lamps - really poor look. The good flourescent and maybe a few mr16's could be a nice look.