A couple of elements are in dispute, for a little halucination we are having for a spec house.
First, the notch in the mainfloor plan. The little feature shown here means the foundation is built with the 45-90-45 notch, which is repeated in the mainfloor exterior walls. The second deck is not notched; the rim is boosted with a thickness of 1.75 LVL, just over the void. An exterior downlight mounts in the soffit.
Second, the roof brackets, shown in this pic. They are elaborate and project way out in the pic, and can be simplified and made more diminutive, not projecting. There are a total of 11.
In your market, would these details help sell? If so, what cost would you estimate for each? What do you lose or gain, if anything, by eliminating them completely?
Edited 12/30/2006 12:58 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Replies
in this market,ks i don't think the notch in the foundation would be any plus.if it wasn't there nobody would say,wow i wish that had a little 45 notch right there. as far as the roof brackets again people would notice the detail of the brackets,but if they were held to a shorter length who would know? whats the price range of this house?that could make some difference. larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
I'lll come oversee the foundation detail, band detail, build and install the brakets for $50.00 and an all expenses paid trip to Lake Placid July 1 - July 8.
I will need accomondations on the lake with boat dock, ski boat, ski equipment and fishing gear.
Sorry Gene, I could not resist.
We did do some similar foundations and consequent wall details on a home we built. When I questioned the HO and presented the added cost, his response was to follow the plans...he wanted the detail. The customers desire is always our main focus.
I have no experience with the craftsman style brackets, but it seems at first thiought I may be in a $250.00 - $500.00 range per bracket for crafting, installation and finish.
Have you checked vendors for pre-fab brackets?
For bracket-making magic, go and see Mike Smith do it in pics and words at his Quarter Deck thread in the Photo Gallery, right here on Breaktime. A little 4x4 stock, an EZ Smart setup, and the next thing you know, it's bracket city. The simple type he shows are what we would do, if doing these.
The foundation for this little place, done in ICFs, can be done by three guys in three days, start to finish including the pour, once the footings are in. We know this from fact, and probably can beat the time. My guess is that the notch, at worst, would cause us to have to work an extra two hours each, max, on days one and two. The carpentry work above it, wallframes and deck detailing, might add a total of 10 mh.
Inside, the house has a little recurring theme going with these 45s, and I like detail and always want to do more, but really don't know if the cost would result in a quicker and better sale. All the outside elevations of the place have good interest, including the wall with the notch. Removing the notch makes for one wall that is bland.
As you may know we are design / build. Those reoccuring themes can help sell. I noticed that the 45 degree knotch is associated with windows. Eliminating them may cause a domino effect around the plan.
The angled windows are sometimes used as a way to put unprotected openings into a wall that is close to a lot line. It depends on how the distance to the lot line from a skewed wall is interpreted in your region. Some regions measure the shortest distance from the the window to the lot line and others measure a straight line perpendicular from the surface of the window. If your region interprets the code in the latter, it sometimes allows a window (or a larger one) to be installed that otherwise might not be allowed.
It might be possible to keep the foundation straight and frame the notch from there up.
On the projecting brackets, I'd be worried about rot and introducing water back into the eaves. It's a great place for pigeons to roost however.
Just a thought
Gene,
For what its worth coming from me, but my family has been building for about 25-30 years. My dad prefers to build spec.
What we've found the last couple of years is that things like the brackets make a bigger impact than that jog in the foundation. We find that paying closer attention to the exterior trim, interior features, interior trim and a decorating theme that harmonizes are the most important features that set us (at least we hope) apart.
The house we did the groin vault in last spring closed Thursday. The couple that bought it picked it out of 4 houses because of the groin vault. That's what they said. So that is good for me, since I like to frame the detail stuff :-)
Many builders are rather plain interior and exterior, maybe bland is a better word. We sold a house to a family a few years ago and the wife is an artist and has a degree in decorating and some background in landscape design although not much. It is amazing what she can do to a house to make it really stand out.
If I had a picture of the original elevation of my brother's house compared to what she drew I think my point would be made better :-)
Short answer, if we were building that plan, we wouldn't jog the foundation. That was much shorter :-)
From a design element I can see myself inside the two rooms with the angled windows. They allow one to have an additional view you would not have if just squared off. I personally hate dead corners in kitchens. Now, as an architect I would also be interested in what is happening with the exterior elevation as well as how the house sits on the site and what site elements I am taking advantage of with these views.
I believe the brackets would add character and help give the structure "curb appeal" I really do not see anyone except those that knew the original design being able to discern a difference between something shorter and what you have there. I'd keep them but if cutting the size substantially reduced cost I'd go that route.
I can see it being a place that receives little regular maintenance coupled with standing snow and constant rain exposure I would find a way to put a pitched top, maybe in copper. on them to protect them.
The little notch in the foundation I'd loose on a spec. For the additional money in form work, framing, siding, trim, etc. I do not believe you will be able to sell it. If the designer really would like some sort of change in the wall plane find a place that's appropriate and flip it around to bump outward, draw it with a chair in it and call it a "reading nook" it would be much easier to build and no reason to change the foundation.
Just my 2 cents
Gene, the notch doesn't seem to be a big deal. You'd build in a simple pilaster into the foundation and it would be functional and a nice design detail.
The brackets don't look like much money either.
If these details are built into a 100sf vinyly production box, they won't make sense and they won't add any value. There needs to be some context to help you answer your question.
blue
"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I agree that context is needed. These details might work on a $400k house where they distinguish it from the similar neighborhood houses, but might be wasted on a $150k house in which the extra cost would be better spent on other items.Sometimes it only takes one or two unique items to make a house stand out from its peers, especially if a bunch are for sale at once in a buyer's market. But that's only as long as the basics are adequately provided for.
Around here, the real estate market has been sagging. Houses that sell quickly are those with "wow factor".
IMHO, the details you are considering will make your place stand out in buyers' minds. They might not know why, but other houses they view will not measure up.
Don't know if they would help sell the house or not.
I do like the notch, but would place a $1000.00 on it from start to finish over a flat wall cost.The notch adds a real different look and feel from both inside and outside. Materials aren't much but start itemizing all the different labor steps needed and the time involved.
Brackets.. probably $330.00 ea. Not counting the extra time to fit shingles around them , flash them etc. All in all a $500.00 detail fo rea one. At least shorten them up the are rot waiting for a time to happen unless you want to spend another $100.00 or so to get each one copper flashed.
my .02 worth
What side of the house is the notch on? Will it accumulate snow and ice against the house and not melt until the spring thaw, in upstate NY a/k/a Independence day?
It seems a little contrived to me, especially for a spec house.
This little pic shows the front and left side. The notch is around to the right on the opposite side of the one with the dormer.
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Two cheapened-down versions of this have been very quickly sold as specs in the area where we have land.
The pic shows two of the three patio doors on the front elevation having half-circle transom windows. Those were not done in the two already sold. Overhangs were cut back. Stone (cultured) went only on the chimney box, not elsewhere.
The second copy of the house has no notch, and we don't know how the kitchen will be re-detailed. The first copy had the notch.
There is no more issue here with snow than for any other kind of inside corner of a house.
In the current version being built, it was sold before the foundation got dug. The builder used the artists rendition of the house in the real estate info, and the listing said words like "similar." Apparently a few pics, floor plans, and a drive by of the completed one were enough to make the sale. I'll never know, but I wonder what the buyer said about the floor plan discrepancies.
IMHO, the notch creates window viewscapes and is an important element of the angled theme that is very evident in the inside spaces. My partner is like you, and says it should be forgotten.
Unlike the one underway now, and presold, our version (if we do it) won't go up for sale until we've completed it. Preselling and then dealing with a client is not something we'll do.
Since what we intend to sell is the finished and detailed product, not an idea from a picture, I think sizzle will enable a quicker sale, but I also think I will lose the argument.
I like the notch. Come down early to make coffee and watch my hostess get dressed.SamT
So much of the success of a company is not determined by degrees but temperature. gb93433 83537.46
Gene,
I am wondering what price you put on each of those details. Not what $ they might add to the house, but costs to build.
I wonder would you have to notch the foundation? and could the notch start... say... 8-12" below the window sill? might make for interesting storage space or.. might end up dead space BUT... it might cost less and keep the views...
the brackets.... I think if scaled back could just be "applied" and would keep the look and save on the cost ...
women seem to love arched windows... so thats a pretty nice detail... but i think a transom above the window could also work....
The stone covered fireplace I think is enough, makes it more "period" as that in most cases would be the only stonework in an early home in the woods
either way... it looks like a design that would sell... I'm guessing these are second homes? it always seems people expect to share their time at such places with friends so loft sleeping areas, large open gathering rooms, nice master & master bath, along with another full and 1/2 bath if all that would fit...
p
Edited 1/16/2007 10:45 pm ET by ponytl
well, i can see how the notch creates more window space and an alternative view for the sink and i'd be for it; however the braces look wrong. they don't make sense extending out beyond the roof like that. i'd lose those.
gene didn't i see a post on this house about what it would cost to build this place. i like the looks of it and am looking at putting a place on the lake in arkansas.thanks larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
I wasn't going to comment on anything since the knotch or bracket isn't real exciting, but both do grow on a person. The notch could add interest to an otherwise plain area since it's a little uncommon. The brackets would seem to be a better proportion if smaller or the roof overhang was larger.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
FWIW, here's a pic of a version of the plan, done with the notch, resulting in the angled corner in kitchen and bedroom.
Not my job. Too much kitsch for me.
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