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Desoldering From a Water Shutoff Valve

| Posted in General Discussion on July 12, 2005 03:46am

I have developed a leak in the joint between the house copper water supply pipe and the shutoff valve. The shutoff valve is about 6 inches beyond the foundation wall through which it passes. The valve is brass, all pipe, including external supply is copper. I am assuming that the solder joint has given way and just needs to be resoldered, i.e. I won’t have to replace the valve.

Here is my question: I have been unable to find the street shutoff valve to isolate the house from the town’s water main. This means I going to try and desolder copper pipe from a valve that has water on the other side. Can this be done?

I wanted to ask before I put a torch to this mess and got myself in a place where I couldn’t go forward or backward.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

Chris M

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Replies

  1. BillW | Jul 12, 2005 03:54pm | #1

    I don't know much about plumbing but I learned the hard way that you MUST be able to shut off your water at the curb.  Find it now or you'll have to find it under the worst possible circumstances (dead of winter, frozen ground, water pouring in, etc.)  I'm sure this varies regionally but in our town the town water dept. is responsible to maintain (and locate) the curb stop - you should ask them.  It will probably be free, but even if it isn't, I would do whatever is necessary to know where it is and know that is operable.

    1. DanH | Jul 12, 2005 09:43pm | #17

      Actually, it's not true that you "must" be able to shut off water at the curb. Around here the pipes are 4-5 feet down, and to reach the stop at the water main you'd have to dig down under the street.The next stop is inside the house, where the pipe enters through the basement floor.

      1. BillW | Jul 13, 2005 01:13am | #23

        Dan - If, in the dead of winter,  you ever find yourself staring at a basement with water 5 feet deep, wondering whether you should call a scuba diver to find the shut-off inside the basement, or someone with a jackhammer to go look for the exterior shut-off, you will appreciate why I say everyone MUST know how to shut off their water from the outside.  Know where the valve is, know how to find it under snow at night, because it may someday be your only option.  And if it's truly under a paved road (this is hard to believe), then you should still know where it is and who's responsible for shutting it off in an emergency.  It's pretty easy to do all that this time of year.

        By the way, mine was on the edge of the road, the town took responsibility, had an accurate map combined with sensitive equipment, located it and excavated it relatively quickly, and shut my water off ....

         

        1. DanH | Jul 13, 2005 02:10am | #24

          And I can assure you that what I said is true -- THERE IS NO ACCESSIBLE OUTSIDE SHUTOFF.The main shutoff is near the floor where the pipe enters. Since there's a water softener in front of this, I added an additional shutoff next to the water meter. (The city crew was quite grateful for this when they came to exchange the water meter last year.)I'm sure there are scenarios where the pipe between those two valves (or ahead of the main shutoff) could fails somehow, but they aren't terribly likely and I don't lose much sleep over the possibility.

          1. BillW | Jul 13, 2005 04:01am | #27

            I once lived in a community with a private water system.  I asked the operator where the shut-off was - he said there wasn't one.  I said great - I'm not ever paying the bill again, since you can't disconnect me.  The next day, he found it.

  2. User avater
    bobl | Jul 12, 2005 03:56pm | #2

    call the town about the shut off

    i'm no plumber, but I don't think you will have any luck trying to solder a pipe with water in it. the water will carry the heat off.

     

    bobl          Volo, non valeo

    Baloney detecter

    1. Wooster74 | Jul 12, 2005 04:06pm | #5

      This could get ugly.We tried to find the street shutoff valve a couple of years ago, but had no luck. Through landscaping projects, new gardens,..etc the supply line has been buried deeper than the consumer metal detector we used could see.I get the feeling I'm going to have to call in the professional utility finding guys.Why isn't this ever easy?

  3. mitch | Jul 12, 2005 04:03pm | #3

    i'm not a plumber but i've done a fair amount over the years, and imho, you're gonna play he!! de/resoldering that joint with only 6" of pipe between there and the wall.  check with a local pro- MAYBE a freezer unit* would work with only that much room, i don't know.

    for what it's worth- resoldering an old joint is a hit or miss proposition.  i'd be strongly inclined to replace it while you're at it.

    *in case you're not familiar with these, they're a collar of sorts that use liquid nitrogen, dry ice or some other sort of heavy duty refrigerant to literally freeze a short plug in the pipe.  only seen them in catalogs, never in action, so i wouldn't know if they'll work that close to the heat. (or under the pressure of the main supply)

    i kinda doubt the bread ball trick will work under these circumstances...  ;-)

    good luck,

    m

  4. Dave45 | Jul 12, 2005 04:05pm | #4

    Where is your water meter?  Around here (San Jose, CA), the water meter is in a box near the sidewalk - and there is a shutoff valve in the box.

    1. Wooster74 | Jul 12, 2005 04:07pm | #6

      There is no water meter.

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Jul 12, 2005 04:24pm | #7

        Several options to get you started.1) dig of the pipe just outside the foundation so that you (a plumber) can get a freeze clamp on it).2 Contact Dig Rite (the name varies -digrite, one call, first call, dig safe) but each state has a single number to call for a locator service to mark underground lines. Now when I have used them they put a signal on the line or pipe and trace that. It is free. However, the utility (city) has to belong. My little city does not. But all of major utilities do.3) Call the city. In most cases they are responsible for the cutoff. And it might well have been paved over. Better that they pay for digging it up and patching the street.

        1. BryanSayer | Jul 12, 2005 06:20pm | #10

          In Columbus, the "Call before you dig" people only mark utilities OUTSIDE of personal property, ie up to the meter. Useless.

          1. User avater
            bobl | Jul 12, 2005 06:30pm | #11

            but if u know where the water line comes onto the property, u have a better idea where to start.
            BTW last time I used digsafe (few years ago) thye didn't mark the water line.
            call the town city should get some info 

            bobl          Volo, non valeo

            Baloney detecter

          2. Dave45 | Jul 12, 2005 09:21pm | #15

            Are you sure of that, Bryan?  Around here, utility companies have easements along all property lines and they ARE responsible for marking their locations within the easement.  You seldom see markings on private property but that's because very few people ever ask to have things marked.

            Also, the "Call Before You Dig" people don't actually do the marking.  They're just a notification operation.  When you call them, they pass the word to the utility companies (the ones who have signed up, anyway) and the companies send locators out to mark things. 

            I could write a book about some of the weird things I've seen locators doing.  Once, I saw a water company pickup cruising slowly down the street with some clown on the passengers side holding the door open and spraying his blue paint on the street.  For some reason I didn't have much faith in those marks - lol.  Another time, I saw some contract locators marking fiber cable for one of my customers.  They were carefully studying their drawings, measuring and marking the location on the sidewalk.  Since I had engineered that job the previous year, I asked to see their prints.  They were really ticked off when I told them that they were working with the preliminary drawings and that we had actually built the conduit structure out in the street.  The splice boxes were in the sidewalk but the duct runs were about 6' off the curb.  My customer had lost the as-built drawings and some genius decided that the preliminary drawings were good enough.

          3. User avater
            BillHartmann | Jul 12, 2005 09:34pm | #16

            "Also, the "Call Before You Dig" people don't actually do the marking."I think that varies, but my the way that the area handles it and how difficualt it is.When I had them out one person from the Locator service, marked for gas, electric, and phone. The gas and phone they put a sign on the wire (plastic gas line with tracer wire) and followed the signal. I don't remember how they did the electric.He had no maps or any background information other than what I told him. And it was a good thing that I was there. I phoned in that it was NE corner of the house to the street. But he kept going to the wrong corner. And any maps here would be worthless.

          4. BryanSayer | Jul 13, 2005 12:45am | #22

            Well, if I still have the card they left me, I'll try to scan it in and upload it. Of course, I was digging in the back yard to replace a private water pipe, so the gas people marked a spot in the alley (or was it sewer? Which is yellow?). This left at least one water pipe (the broken one), one gas pipe (I had exit and entry for it, so I assumed a straight line) one electrical feed (again I had exit and entry), one sewer, and at least one storm drain.They didn't mark a lick of it. And told me (on the card) they wouldn't.

          5. Dave45 | Jul 13, 2005 03:08am | #26

            Yellow = Gas

            Orange = Phone/Fiber

            Red = Electric

            Blue = Water (Purple = Reclaimed Water)

            Green = Sewer or Storm Drains

            White = Used to identify an area requiring location owrk.

      2. User avater
        CapnMac | Jul 12, 2005 04:53pm | #8

        There is no water meter.

        Huh?  The water is free?  Fill in your profile (click on your own name in blue)--I'm keen to know where the city water is unmetered.

        Metal detector may not help if the pipe is not metalic--so your thought about using digsafe (or whatever it's called in your locale) might help--they just don't go much further than the actual mains, typically.  You could ask them to do a meter mark, tell them that you are planning a lawn sprinkler install.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

        1. User avater
          BillHartmann | Jul 12, 2005 05:47pm | #9

          Unmetered water is not that unusal. In NYC the water is unmetered or it was.And in many places meters are inside in older homes, so that does not help either.

        2. Wooster74 | Jul 12, 2005 09:55pm | #19

          I live in a housing development in Connecticut that has a water association. The association is composed of all the homeowners in the development and is run by a volunteer staff. We have three deep wells and pay a flat fee every month regardless of the amount of water we use. most folks are good about not using more than their fair share.

  5. csnow | Jul 12, 2005 07:07pm | #12

    No one answered your basic question.

    It is unlikely you would be able to get the joint hot enough with water on the other side of the valve.

    I would try epoxy.  If it fails, you are no worse off.

    Close the valve, drain the pipe (cut it perhaps 6 inchs back if you have to), heat it up to dry it thoroughly.  Rough the area up (at least an inch from joint line in each direction) with a wire wheel and/or sandpaper.  Needs to be super shiney clean for a good bond.  Apply epoxy clay (made for this very purpose) over the whole area.

    I know it sounds like a hack, but I have seen this stuff last for decades.

  6. mike4244 | Jul 12, 2005 07:16pm | #13

    Don't attempt to put a torch on it until the water is shut off or the pipe behind the valve is frozen.The supply is under pressure, you'll have a disaster in the making.

    I am not a plumber, you need one.I have successfully frozen a pipe with dry ice. I would call a plumber ,he's done this before a couple a times.When I froze the pipe, I had no choice, on a sunday, in a rural area with no plumbing outfits for 60 miles.

    mike

  7. User avater
    Soultrain | Jul 12, 2005 07:33pm | #14

    What state are you in?

    You should be able to call for a markout.

    I got the number for New Jersey by doing a Google search (800-272-1000)

    Search on "Call before you dig" and "<your state here>" together.

    Failing that, your contstruction office and your utility companies would have the number.

     

  8. DanH | Jul 12, 2005 09:46pm | #18

    Sometimes it's just best to call a plumber.

    1. Wooster74 | Jul 12, 2005 10:05pm | #20

      I just knew this was going to get ugly.And all because I decided a couple of years ago to tie the electric panel neutral to the water pipe. I jumpered around one brass valve and forgot about this one....I know, I know...I should have used a proper ground rod, but it was the middle of winter and then I forgot about it. yadda yadda yaddaAnd yes, I know I have to take care of the panel ground as well.

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Jul 12, 2005 11:32pm | #21

        "And all because I decided a couple of years ago to tie the electric panel neutral to the water pipe. I jumpered around one brass valve and forgot about this one....I know, I know...I should have used a proper ground rod, but it was the middle of winter and then I forgot about it. yadda yadda yadda"To clarify somethings.Actually you need to connect the panel ground bus to the ground electrode system, not the neutral. Now at the service entrance the neutral is bonded (connected) to the ground bus. The "main panel" is often the service entrance so the neutral is grounded, but in some installations there is a separate disconnect there the neutral is bonded and the at the panel the neutral is isolated from the ground.If you have a metalic water pipe that is extends 10 under ground then it is a ground electrode and you need to use it as part of the ground electrode system by connecting withing 5 ft of where it enters the house.However, you are not allowed to use a water pipe ground electrode as the only electrode. So a ground rod is commonly used as the second electrode. But a ground rod can not be used as the only ground electrode unless it is tested and found to be less than 25 ohms. In your case the water pipe is not a ground electrode and since you are using a ground rod you need a second one 6 ft or more away.HOWEVER, since you have metalic water pipes in the inside they still need to be "bonded" to the ground bus.

        1. Wooster74 | Jul 13, 2005 04:24am | #28

          Sounds like I was actually required to use the pipe, but failed to use the rod.I'm pretty convinced that by not using a ground rod and thus forcing the neutral current through the copper pipe and then the brass valve caused galvanic corrosion. Consequently, either the valve or the pipe became a sacrificial anode.Not the smartest thing for me to have done.

        2. Wooster74 | Jul 13, 2005 04:28am | #29

          I tend to use the terms "panel neutral" and "ground bus" interchangably. My service entrance is my main panel. Consequently, the neutral is bonded to the ground bus. So, electrically they are common.

  9. buildingbill | Jul 13, 2005 03:00am | #25

     Every building has to have a "gate" where the town water enters the property.[Unless you have well water] Your town usually will shut off your water for free during normal business hours. What you may want to use is a brass style coupling which utilizes compression fittings. These are usually found at plumbing supply houses not the box stores. Your line coming in from the outside has roughly 80 psi and resoldering would not be reccomended. Spend a little now and you will be better off.

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