Dewalt or Mag 77 – That is the question.
Bought the Panasonic Multi-drill and Driver a couple of days ago but just got around to telling the wife about it today. She took it so well that I’m planning to either pick up a Mag 77 or a worm drive Dewalt this weekend… maybe.
I can’t make up my mind. The Dewalt is 2 amps stouter and seems the favorite in most of the comparisons. It is also lighter and cheaper but I just can’t get past all you die hard Mag 77 fans singing its praises.
Any last minute convincing arguments that might sway me? I may be able to limp through the weekend on what’s left of my current Crapsman but I am going to have to commit to a real saw soon.
This saw will not see the years of abuse most professionals put one through but I believe in buying tools that my son will appreciate when I’m gone. One more reason I like the more “Classic” Mag 77.
I am going to be using this saw for everything involved in building a home from framing to finish plywood ripping with a saw guide. ( I have never used a worm drive with a saw guide – any problem with that?) I am right handed but have always preferred the blade on the left where I can keep a little closer eye on it. I am comfortable with a standard saw with the blade on either side but I tend to cut much cleaner lines with a worm drive. That may be irrelevant with a quality saw guide. Any other saws I should consider?
Kevin Halliburton
“I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity.” – I.M. Pei –
Replies
Even though I am a sidewinder user, I would not even consider a Default compared to the Mag 77 with it's proven history of indestrucability(is that a word?).
I got a milwaukee tilt lock for X-mas, that makes three milwaukees.
If I were a fulltime framer I would definately get a mag77, or if needed a saw for a "crew" saw that would see lots of use /abuse.
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
I have a skil 77. It's pretty manly.
I have the edge guide, but don't use it much. I find it easy to cut a straight line with this saw. If you haven't used one you'll think it's no good till you get used to it. Then you see why it's still loved after all these years. There are tricks to cutting with it, one is getting the guard to open when you want it to. The other is cutting downhill or level. Cutting up is a drag.
I like the saw, and don't see it wearing out in my lifetime. It will cut anything and barely bog. The weight of it keeps it from jerking if it binds. I had a lightweight sidewinder fly out of my hand once when it hit a nail. The weight isn't always welcome. It caused me a bit of grief when I was nursing tendonitis, but even lifting a coffee hurt then. I said this before, but don't try to hold this saw over your head to cut soffits unless you have gorilla arms. The mag is a couple pounds lighter, but has a weak sole plate. The bosch may offer an advantage or two, and is pretty much the same saw otherwise.
Overall I like the saw, but I can't compare it to the dewalt since I haven't used one. But my general impression of Dewalt is they are cheap made tools, course some of their stuff is good, especially the older models that were formerly B&D industrial tools.
I have the DeWalt. My partner has the Skil. So I work with them side by side almost every day.
What I like about the DeWalt:
- The blade guard is much smarter! It will function properly when cutting even sliver-acute angles or when shaving an 1/8th off plywood. The Skil will not always.. in fact he has it rigged with a pin that can hold the blade guard retracted for this reason (common "fix", seen on many saws) and it's almost always in use... SCARY!
- Weight. It's heavy enough to be controllable, but gobs lighter than the Skil.
- Quieter.
- No oil to mess with or leak. Especially here in Alaska, the Skil takes 5-10 seconds to come up to speed after the gear oil has cooled to peanut butter consistency.
- Also, bevels past 45, foot dimensions (blade 1 1/2 from foot edge, sometimes very handy), and factory rafter hook(thanks DeWalt!).
I can't tell any difference power-wise.. tough to bog either down.
Is the Skil tougher? Maybe. But you'd have to set out hell bent on destruction to find the point where it exceeded the DeWalt.
My ONLY complaint with the DeWalt is that the grooved foot will sometimes try to follow some raised feature (nail head) and want to force me off my line... not much of an issue though, seldom presents itself.
I respect the Skil. It's a great saw and it's proven itself in the test of time. But the DeWalt is simply easier to use.
Bought the porter cable sidewinder a few years ago and totally fell in love with the saw. Just really a nice piece of equipment.
Started working with a remodeler not too long ago who only had skil 77's.... and several of them at that all ranging in age from 1 year old to 100 years old or however old the first one ever made is....
Anyway, first time on the skil I couldn't believe that anyone could ever possibly use that saw. It is so darn heavy! And I'm a small guy (130 lbs soaking wet). Quite literally just a monster to use.
Gave away my porter cable and picked up a skil. Can't even imagine how anyone makes a straight cut with a sidewinder now. And the skil feels literally like it has become an extension of my hand. You have to learn a whole new technique of sawing with it though. Watch someone who is experienced with a skil to get an idea. It is a totally different way of working a circular saw.
Heavy? Yea, and I love it. For the way I use the saw, the weight is an absolute advantage (except of course for overhead work like the other poster said.... but then again, who the hell is crazy enough to put a circular saw over their head on a ladder?).
Rob Kress
I have several 77's of various ages. The one problem that comes up from time to time with 77's(and seems to be saw-specific) is the radius slot for the depth adjustment can be a bitch to move freely.
I've heard a lot on this forum and read in various publications a lot of raving about the Bosch 77 makeover. So I recently checked one out in a tool store and loved it!
Price is about the same as the Skil Mag 77, but they've made some improvements, including a rafter hook that is a real asset when working aloft or around sawhorses.
I plan to get one soon and would encourage you to check it out.
If you do settle for the old standard 77, have them unbox them and check that the action is free on all the adjustments.
We have three of the DeWalts and we all love them. Plenty of power, lightweight, the rafter hook and it is very comfortable to use.
Don't buy a Mag. They aren't very durable. Yes the motor is, but the baseplate is not.
We got a great deal on the new Bosch wormdrive. Now that is a well made saw! As our DeWalts die, I think we'll probably replace them with the Bosch.
You will be happy with both saws, but I think that the Bosch may last longer. I wouldn't even consider the Mag anymore. Bosch has fixed all the problems with the Mag.
Let us know what you decide.
I couldn`t possibley both agree and disagree with Tim more on this one.
I own both the Bosch and the Mag.......you can`t go wrong with either saw.
I`ve used a Mag for twenty some odd years.....still one of the best. The Bosch, so far, is just as good.
Im not a fan of Dewalt tools to begin with, but I`ve never used their worm, so I cant speak on the tool itself. If I were to choose between two worms, Id be comparing the Skil with the Bosch.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Jaybird,
I can't believe someone would disagree with me!! This has never happened before and my mom and dad didn't give me the skills to deal with it ;-)
We bought quite a few (4 or5) Mags when they first came out. I had one sitting on top of a sawhorse (35" high) and I knocked it off accidentally. The baseplate bent. I was so mad. That was the first day out of the box for that saw.
Same thing started happening to all the Mags we own. We turned them into saws for cutting fibercement. We bought a DeWalt because the roof we were cutting was a bastard (and irregular) and we had to cut jacks at 50°. We all fell in love with the saw because it was light weight (1 lb lighter than the mag), it had a much more durable baseplate, would bevel to 50, had the built in rafter hook and was very comfortable to use. We bought 2 more after that.
I was in Las Vegas for JLC LIVE! in October 2002 and Bosch was selling one of the new wormdrives for $169 and there was no tax and no shipping charge. I bought one and we only use it if a saw is down or for cutting porches or anything exposed. We are trying to keep that saw nice. The other day we were talking about that Bosch and how much we like it. It has a 15 amp motor (not 13 like the Mag and believe me if you are cutting a 12-12 plumb cut with a 50° bevel through Dougfir 2x12s you will appreciate the extra power) a guard that doesn't snag, the rafter hook and a redesigned baseplate that is like the DeWalts. There is no comparison between the Mag and the Bosch. Bosch owns Skil and upgraded the Mag to the new saw that carries their name. I really believe it is the best saw made. Bad thing is that it's about $189 compared to the DeWalt at about $139.
Alright Jaybird, I'm going to try and figure out how to cope when someone disagrees with me. I sure hope it doesn't happen again. I'm quite fragile you know, after all I am a framer ;-)
I think it's funny that you like the Bosch worm drives and not the Skill mag 77when they are exactly the same except for the joist hook. The Bosch is evenmade by Skill since they bought Skill
They aren't the same. Pretty close though. I liked the Mag too, but we had too many problems with a lack of durability.
The Bosch has redesigned the shoe. It isn't just a smooth piece of magnesium that is easy to bend, but has been reinforced so it won't bend. The guard is different now, it doesn't snag. The handles are more comfortable and the motor is 15 amp.
The Bosch is a luxury Mag. I think of it as the Lexus and the Mag is Toyota (pardon the bad example and the fact that both vehicles aren't American).
Tim,
What's up Charlie?
Do they make a wormdrive with the blade on the right side, motor on the left?
Joe Carola
Hey Joe,
I'm doing well. We've had sunny weather for the last few weeks. Feels good.
I'm not sure if they make a wormdrive with blade right. I can't get used to that. I'm a diehard blade lefty guy.
How's your DeWalt gun holding up for you? I wear earplugs on the job so I don't hear it, but my seals are leaking air inside my gun. I had it plugged in and didn't have my earplugs in and I could hear it leaking pretty good. I oil it everyday and a couple of times a day if I shoot a lot of nails.
The max is still doing great though. I like that gun!
Post some pics of your job at Joe's forum. I'm dying to see some more of your framing :-) One of these days I'm going to make it out there and see you and Joe Fusco. Someday :-) Hope you are doing well.
Tim and Joe,
Hey, I'd like to see some framing pics from both of ya, so can you give me a link to Joe Fusco's site/forum? I'd certainly appreciate it!
-JasonQuality before Quantity
Jason,
How are you?
Any rainy days yet ?
Here's Joe's site.
Joe Carola
http://www.josephfusco.org/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=1
Yeah Joe, we've had rain since Friday--and I had to work through it; talk about miserable. Finally got a nice day today--felted a roof in an hour this AM then went and registered for our wedding registry. Went on a house tour this afternoon; I think we're gonna make an offer (pending inspection) tomorrow. An older house with a so-so exterior, but the inside's like new. The price is right and it's got wood cornice (I HATE vinyl!), but the roof is dated and the "screened-in porch" is a hack job.Quality before Quantity
Kevin, seems to me , this could be in line with the "Bernoulli trials", I would weight it, ever so slightly towards the Mag, beings from AZ, could the Butterfly effect come into play?? Jim J
Skil is Bosch, Bosch is Skil.
Bosch owns Skil, Skil is owned by Bosch.
Any questions? Class dismissed.
One more Dewalt user. I've got two of them, and they have been pushed to the limit more times than a tool should be. (I sawcutted a concrete slab with one the other day), sshh. Same saw does all rough framing and finish work too. Only complaint is it has the occasional Dewalt switch funk, gotta shake the cord to make it start sometimes. But it is perfectly balanced, feels a lot lighter than it is, and rock solid doing everything. I have used the skils, and they are tough hombres but I've never gotten used to how heavy they feel. I bought one of the DW's from Amazon as a reconditioned unit-absolutely nothing wrong with it but ####lot less than typical "new" saw.
Haven't seen the Bosch yet. I think it came out pretty expensive, but maybe has come down to a reality level?
Well, at least no one has jumped in with a comment about sidewinders yet. Heads are too far up their arses to have caught wind of this thread yet.
If you want an heirloom quality saw that you can pass down, find an old Skil 77. They just started making the Mag 77 recently (late 80's, early 90's maybe) and although I now have 2 of them, I agree with others that the magnesium table and ajustment slides, while lighter in weight, do not take the abuse the old steel parts did.
If it's the hook that has folks gaga over the DeWalt and Bosch, for around 10 skins all the lumber yards around here sell "The Saw Saver", which is a foldable hook that screws onto the side of your saw in about 4 minutes (work great on guns, too).
Just don't forget, it's not the tool that makes the craftsman.
Hey Mad Dog, is that really you?
Well first you have to measure your forearm
Should measure at least 13" before you buy a wormdrive. :-)
Arms should be very close to touching the ground while standing straight up.:-)
You should be able to lift the saw up from the display shelf without asking the tool sales person for assistance. :-)
If you really want to see all the specifics of your saw blade as it turns you'll be bummed because you have to turn the blade with all the writing toward the motor on a worm drive, otherwise you'll be cutting backwards.:-)
Now, with all that said, my Mag has been my friend for a long time and my old Pre-Mag-Boat anchor is still running strong and my 60 degree Skill makes me grunt every time I pick it up and my Bigfoot Skill gives me a hernia every time I pick it up......But.........Man can they cut wood.
Only used Nathans Dewalt when we built those sheds for Luka, and I liked it.
I like my Porter Cable sidwinder with the blade on the left as well.
Heck, I just like makin sawdust...................
Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Here I thought you just liked banging things...
Isn't it illegal in your side of the country to say you like sidewinders?If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
LOL- Sidewinders are snakes that bite aren't they?Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Pro-Dek,
We have the Bigfoot with the swingtable and that saw is a beast! Yesterday I used it to cut a double 2x12 valley tail in the air. That saw was a bit heavy to be hanging over the plates on the second floor, but at 45° it made that valley tail look nice.
Do you have the swingtable or the table that came with it?
I thought the swing table was standard on the Bigfoot? Mine has one but I don't use it for cutting many angles. I usually just cut 4X beams and 6X arbor posts with the table flat. The only thing I don't like about it is you can't store it without the blade exposed so I made a guard for it. here is a picture of it.
I ran the blade through a piece of 5/4 X 8 Fascia then cut a radius a little larger than the cut with a jigsaw.Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Pro-Dek,
That table on your saw isn't the swingtable. The swingtable will let you bevel to 75°. It is a bit unweildy, but has it's place. It's a great saw though.
Wow! I had no idea they had one of those, and gold no less. Mine is a swing table but it only swings to 45 degrees.
Another toy for my wish list.
http://www.bigfootsaws.com/swing.htmBob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Well, now that I've poked a stick in the opinionated hornets nest I just thought I would weigh in and tell everyone... ah, never mind.
I saw shopped about three hours this weekend (plus a couple of hours of internet time) and after weighing all the applications I will be using this saw for, and all the saw specs and comparisons I could put my hands on, I decided to get a more conventional, though still left handed saw - the one Pro-Deck owns.
Besides, I don't have a big enough truck to haul a worm drive. I think you have to have at least a three Qtrmeg ton or someone might insinuate that you're a poser?
;-)>
Anyway, thank you all for your input. I will print this debate for future reference in case I decide to start my own design build firm some day and have an excuse to buy a big enough truck to haul a worm drive. Who knows, by then I may have inherited my grandfather's Skill 77 that I used to use when I was framing with him too many years ago to mention. I'm pretty sure it's still in excellent condition.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Cool Kevin- I love that left sided Porter Cable sidewinder for cutting plywood , mostly because it is lightweight and easy to handle.
There's a saw for everything you do and like you say if you have them all you have to buy a bigger truck.
Here's a shot of your new saw in action.Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bottom line, I couldn't find the saw I really wanted so I bought the one that seemed like the best compromise on all the features I had on my list. It's certainly not going to rival a worm drive for durability but I hope the Porter Cable will stand the test of time. Really, probably any saw that can't handle what I'll be putting this one through would be pretty lame- like my old Crapsman for example.
One feature I really wanted that I couldn't find on any left hand saw was the ability to adjust the shoe plate parallel to the blade- Dewalt was the only brand that had this feature on a couple of their standard right hand models. Really nice for fine tuning the saw for a ripping setup with a saw guide. I'm working with a limited budget so I am trying to buy tools that will serve more than one use where I can.
One of the things I liked about the Porter Cable was the slot on top of the base plate to attach the rip guide. The Porter Cable rip guide looked pretty Mickey Mouse to me but I plan to drop by a friend's machine shop and come up with something a little more substantial that will lock onto a long metal straight edge. Ah, whata I need a table saw for anyway?
One of the main reasons, aside from the left hand blade, that I was initially leaning toward the worm drives is that I am doing stained concrete floors and needed a saw that could handle cutting shallow "grout" joints with a masonry blade into the slab. I found some tongue and groove oak this weekend for $1.60/S.F. that has me leaning in a different direction. This saw ought to handle that stuff just fine.
I made several piles of sawdust with it yesterday evening. Sure leaves you with a mouthful of the stuff when you're wearing a big old grin while you're sawing. The best part was that I had enough left in the budget to pick up the palm nailer they were closing out at nearly half price.
It was a good tool day.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I'd rent a saw to cut concrete. That dust will kill your new saw. Besides you don't want to breathe that stuff too much , those concrete boogers are hard to pry out of the old beak when they harden up.
Stick with cutting wood if you can...................
Enjoy your new toy! Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Here's a shot of why I like the 60 degree Skill - cutting 6 X 6'sBob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
ya know dude, ya really let me down. I`ve always respected your views and insights in the political threads....but a sidewinder? I hope you don`t let your grandfather catch wind of this!J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Did the magnetic poles switch or something? A guy out west buys a sidewinder, and a guy in the east is criticizing it? :)If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
I was thinking the same thing...LOL....forget his grandfather, his buddies better not find out!J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
For the record, my Grandfather owns several sidewinders in addition to his Skil 77.
On a side note he is also ampedextrious so he can saw or hammer equally well with either hand depending on what is most comfortable for the position he finds himself in at any given moment. I never could pick up that little trick.
My Grandfather prefers to run the sidewinders with his left hand and the Skil 77 with his right because its easier to see the blade and cut line. So you see, I may be a little "different" but I come by my hangups honestly.
There are days I sure miss working for my Grandfather. He's still the greatest carpenter I've ever known - with either hand.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
JB >>> "Well, at least no one has jumped in with a comment about sidewinders yet. Heads are too far up their arses to have caught wind of this thread yet."
I think every engineer and architect should have a wormdrive. They should also buy a Dodge to truck em around. ;-)
Yeah. It is me Jim. Shoot me an email, I've gotten a new puter since we last talked and your address is stuck in the old one along with Jon's and Sam's but would like to talk to you guys.
I've got a Makita sidewinder that's been junk since the day I bought it. All I use it for is cutting soffit. Got the blade on nice and backwards so that no one is tempted to use it for real work! Only saw I've got that has a case.
I have Skill 71/4 and an 81/4.. great machines both... use the 8 with a diamond blade to tooth out brick-work when replacing windows or doors in remodel work. Also have a Dewalt (blade on left, forgot model ) saw .. OK not as heavy as worm saw and would do on most work...but love that worm saw sound..it's the Harley-Davidson of saws...
Those skils do sound sweet. They sound a lot nicer than the gear whine of a sidewinder.
hey I have used the mag 77 for quite some timw but i gues a year ago splurged and bought myself the new Bosch worm drive. Rear handle model, not the worm drive with the handle on the top. Get it and love it. All the guys love it better than the mag 77 we have, The table is better and it also has a built in rafter hanger/clip. It is still as heavy as the mag 77 though.....Just better.....and I never thought you could improve the mag 77. I just got done doing a 7000 sq ft house with 11 gables, 1 dutch hip, and 6, 13 ft curved outside hips on the porch that wraps the entire house. The saw never faltered. Just a bit more expensive but you'll like the handle more too........
oh yeah i agree with TIMUHLER I almost forgot..the blade gaurd rocks too.....I belive also that it is the best saw made. What you sacrifice in weight with even the lightest worm drive is made up in the stability of the worm drive saw.......Go for the bosch and don't look back
How could anyone consider The 77 and a DeWilted as a true comparison? Its no contest.Stay with the tried and true. I just replaced my first 77 because it wasnt worth repairing anymore. It was given to me for my birthday, in 1978.
The problem that I have heard and seen with the DeWalt saw is that it has sealed bearings fo the worm drive mechanism. W had a bunch of the saws die because the bearings would fry after about a year and a half of heavy use and you couldn't fix the problem because there is no way to add lube.
The skill's and bosch's on the other hand are bullet proof and I've had mine ever since I came around from the sidewinder camp (about 15 years now)
No one has made this point but there is a distinct difference between the DeWalt and the Bosch/Skil machines - the DeWalt is not, repeat is not a worm drive saw. Lots of tool reviews call it a worm drive but you will not find any manufacturer literature stating worm drive - just that it is a high torque saw. What that means is more laminations for the motor which has to work harder. The worm drive saws are "geared down" so that he motor doesn't have to work as hard - in the long haul, the worm drive will keep running.
Bosch/Skil and Milwaukee are there for the long haul - Black & Decker has radically changed models about every 8 years with no parts support if you go back too far (while Bosch/Skil and Milwaukee have parts for quite old machines). Plus Milwaukee is the only major portable tool manufacturer that still gives a lifetime warranty! If you are framing homes in todays environment, the wood is so soft you can cut it with a 40 year old Wen with a worn blade - the extra money you are plowing into a DeWalt is just going to the executive group (the CEO retires in a few years!). On the other hand, if you are timber framing , building concrete forms or doing heavy bulkhead/pier work, the wormdrive is the only way to go.
Gotta have both. I've been using the Mag 77 for three years - I don't know how I got along without it. For big-####-ripping - I can rip 2x quicker with the worm than with a table saw. But my Makita sidewinder (blade right) is indispensable for the trim work I so detest.
regards