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Did we miss something

bstcrpntr | Posted in Construction Techniques on December 30, 2003 06:26am

I was reading  the new FHB and took an interest in the article about french doors.  I am mostly a trim carpenter and always interested in someone else’e techniques on how to do things, and of course always willing to give my two cents worth.  My suggestion is don’t wait till teh doors are hung to find out if they will line up when closed.  The author suggested tapping the wall witha sledge after the doors are hung to bring the doors into proper alignment on the closing edge.   If you take a min before you put your jamb in place and simply put diagonol strings up you can do rough adjustments with no danger to finish product.  Not only that buti often do commercial work where u set teh jamb in a block wall before the wall is up.  There is no adjusting then and u must check first.   I have learned much from reading this fabulous magazine for 15 years or so now.  Maybe I have now finally got to teach something to someone.  If not I chose the wrong time to finally speak up.

BSTCRPNTR

never ASSUME,  when you do you make an

out of you and your boss.

lol

 

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Replies

  1. User avater
    Dinosaur | Dec 30, 2003 06:47am | #1

    On any pre-hung wider than 36" I thought it was SOP to use diagonal cords to make sure the door isn't installed gull-winged. Especially big units like sliders or American-style French doors (i.e., full double doors; French doors outside the USA are usually only 14-18" wide each, with 6-10" wide sidelights making up the difference--much more elegant).

    Dinosaur

    'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

    1. User avater
      bstcrpntr | Dec 30, 2003 06:57am | #2

      I was tought it as a PUP but after moving from big city to small town i notice a lot of backwoods techniques.  Was just asking if it SOP or if I had great teachers.

      p.s.  how does a 30 yr old run the job when the 40's won't listen but don't want to be in charge?

      thoughts please

      1. VinceCarbone | Dec 30, 2003 01:32pm | #3

        bstcrntr,

        Here's what you do with the 40's that think their the boss, but don't want to be.

        You take them aside and tell them  to stop acting like children and that you are the boss and when you want something done your way that's how it's to be done. You can tell them you want their opinion or advice but once you decide that's it.

        I'm 50 something  and I'm the boss and when I'm writing the checks it's my way.but I sub for guy's sometime and if they want double hungs used as sliders I'll give my opinion but sliders they'll be.Vince Carbone

        Riverside Builders Franklin NY ICQ #47917652

      2. User avater
        Dinosaur | Dec 31, 2003 06:12am | #9

        I'm 52 but I'm told I don't look it. I don't think that matters, anyway.

        My best lead carp just turned 70; my regulars range in age from 22 to 45. I get more grief from the youngsters than from the older guys (not that it's that much anyway, but still...): there seems to be something lacking with today's young workers--but I suppose every generation says that.

        I find that if the crew senses you've got things under control and you know where the job is going at all times, you'll have essentially no problem with anyone worth keeping on the jobsite. If they sense you're on the edge of panic half the time and always trying to figure out what to do next, you'll have trouble from everybody.

        Years ago, when I was in the merchant marine, I discovered that 15 minutes of planning the night before a complicated manœuvre--done in the privacy of my cabin--could make me look like Captain Courageous the next morning. But winging it had at least a 50/50 chance of making me look like some smart #### kid with too much 'book larnin'. This was important when I was in my late 20s and early 30s and working with shell-backed 40- and 50-year-old seamen who'd spent a lifetime on tugs and had seen more young captains come and go than you could shake a marlingspike at.

        Plan ahead. Have a firm demeanor when giving orders. K.I.S.S. And try not to schedule more help than you can use for any day's work. Nothing harder to deal with than having guys standing around picking their noses waiting for the kid genius to tell 'em what to do next....

        Dinosaur

        'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

    2. AndyEngel | Dec 30, 2003 05:42pm | #4

      In my three years working in a pre-hung door shop, I learned that stringing the opening can be futile. It's quite common for the doors themselves to be out of plane, so getting the wall in plane isn't necessarily a useful exercise.Andy Engel, The Former Accidental Moderator

      1. User avater
        jagwah | Dec 30, 2003 05:51pm | #5

        Exactly!

        Moving the walls into plane helps me less than half the time, and then only if the wall is extremely out. I find almost all double units are out either due to manufacture issues or poor final handling at the job site.

        I've contracted a long time and while I'm the boss and my way stands when I work for another I merely give my differing opinion but do what I'm asked to do. If it gets to thick I just mosey home.

        1. finishcarp | Dec 30, 2003 08:23pm | #6

          I hang doors, casing and crown for a living.  I read the article too and when I find a door where the two doors do not line up at the bottom in the middle I use the following technique.  I cut 2 fairly sharp spruce wedges (1 1/2" high over 3") and drive ithem  under the base plate at the appropriate spot to slide the walls over so the doors line up.  I have used this trick time and time again.  It is similar to the sledge/ block trick but it does slide the wall over so the doors line up.  I learned this from a guy who has been doing trim for over 30 years.  It compensates for either the wall being out, the doors not parallel etc. and allows the final fit to be perfect.  I have not had any problem with the wall lifting or drywall cracking. 

          The article has the right idea, my method is slightly diffferent but accomplishes the same thing.  SOmewhere along the line something has to give and the doors need to be installed flush with each other or the trim carp is at fault (I hate being this low on the food chain!!) (LOL)

          JoeMy DW says I'm a tool head with a sawdust brain !!

      2. User avater
        Dinosaur | Dec 31, 2003 05:47am | #7

        Sorry, Andy; I must have under-expressed myself. Too easy to think others know what you're thinking when you're not face to face....

        I don't string the opening; I string the jambs. Then I tweak until the whole unit is flat. Then I can see if the door is warped beyond the mfgr's guarantee spec; it it is, it goes back. It not, I adjust a shade here and there until no one including me can see that it's not as flat plumb and square as a sheet of milled titanium, LOL.

        This procedure is more important on sliders, the way I look at it, than on hinged doors, since if a slider is gull winged enough it'll be hard to slide. Dinosaur

        'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

        1. AndyEngel | Dec 31, 2003 06:01am | #8

          I may just as easily have mis-read. After leaving the door shop, I got into production trimwork. The builders I worked for didn't want to hear about sending back a door, so when one was out, well, I learned how to make them work. I'd rather have sent them back though....Andy Engel, The Former Accidental Moderator

          1. User avater
            Dinosaur | Dec 31, 2003 06:17am | #10

            Yeah, I know. It's hard to send a door back when you know you won't see it's replacement for three weeks or so and that's the only thing left on your punch list. Still, if I can't make its faults invisible and functionally inconsequential, it's gotta go....Dinosaur

            'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

          2. AndyEngel | Dec 31, 2003 07:14am | #11

            Any fool can get it right the first time; It takes a real mechanic to fix the screw ups. <G>Andy Engel, The Former Accidental Moderator

          3. finishcarp | Dec 31, 2003 10:20pm | #12

            Quick question- what does <G> mean?My DW says I'm a tool head with a sawdust brain !!

          4. stonefever | Dec 31, 2003 11:04pm | #13

            G =  grin

            His post ended with a smile.

      3. Snort | Jan 01, 2004 02:54am | #14

        'In myÊthree years working in a pre-hung door shop, I learned thatÊstringing the opening can be futile. It's quite common forÊthe doors themselvesÊto be out of plane, so getting the wall in plane isn't necessarily a useful exercise."

        Yeah, I was curious why that was in the article. Moving a wall with a sledge or a shim may work 1% of the time. The other 99%, the walls are trapped in hardwood or tile, on concrete, finshed jambs are twisted, hinges are sprung or mmortised too shallow/deeply, or the doors are just warped...and the tip about handsawing a long jamb after the door is hung, how's that work on hardwood or tile?

        But that section the same author wrote on the curved moulding, that's why I buy FHB. "Excellent" (Montgomery Burns). EliphIno!

        1. finishcarp | Jan 02, 2004 12:03am | #15

          Moving a wall with a sledge or a shim may work 1% of the time. The other 99%, the walls are trapped in hardwood or tile, on concrete, finshed jambs are twisted, hinges are sprung or mmortised too shallow/deeply, or the doors are just warped...

          Perhaps I wasn't too clear- I work in new construction so access to the bottom plate when I trim is virtually guaranteed (i.e. not trapped as you describe )  Moving the bottom plate so the doors line up, even if they are not in plane- PUTS them in plane with each other.( in essence I make the wall fit the doors !!)    I have found this to work 99% of the time- it didn't work 1% of the time (the  door opening was 1 1/2" out of plumb - the other side of the door opening was plumb!!) and generally the adjustment is not too great on a pair of doors by the time you adjust all 4 corners and then adjust the wall if necessary.  

          Hope this helps to clarify.... Happy New Year ......

          JoeMy DW says I'm a tool head with a sawdust brain !!

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