How would you handle this person?
Doing a small remodel – putting in new windows (replacing former sliders with windows and one opening with a new slider), pulled off all sheathing (that was old homosote) and replaced with OSB, siding house with vinyl, painted all wood trim new.
Customer (husband and wife) signs contract, husband refuses to let me review contract and plans with him (bad sign, but I oblige) wants to “make decision on his own” and within a week of ‘reviewing’ contract, calls to say he’s ready to sign.
We have discussed the project a few times prior and he says he doesn’t want us to do finish after roughing in new framing in old slider openings and installing windows. Fine, don’t include that.
Also, insists on having double hung mullions in bedrooms, we tell him that code requirements for easement will require a large window, making a mullion almost as big as the former slider openings. We explain this two or three times, along with discussion about his decision to not have us do inside finish.
Of course you know where I’m going with this don’t’ you?
First: The windows arrive. The guy acts like he’s never been told how big they are, has a major screaming fit/hissy performance. I stand my ground and explain to him how its clear in the contract and that repeatedly we showed him prior to him signing the contract, with a tape, explained it on paper, explained repeatedly — to get him to understand the size and how we recommended a large single casement, but he wouldn’t budge. So he wants different windows. I explain the others cannot be returned. He wants me to eat it. No, I say. He drops the subject, but still bristles when making out the check for the new casement windows that he begrudgingly concedes are a better option.
But, he still seems to not understand why we should not take the hit on these huge, oddball windows.
Second: Then this week, once the windows are installed up and down, he asks me when they are going to ‘be finished inside’. I remind him that the contract doesn’t include that and he stated specifically on numerous occasions during planning this that he would ‘handle that down the road’. He has another major hissy and begins yelling at me about, “You mean a window installation doesn’t include finishing the inside?!”
I calmly tell him to read the contract and stop yelling at me. He grumbles and retreats to his room with a tv (where he stays on his time off — this was today, Saturday) and continues to state very loudly that he’s paying too much (which he isn’t, I assure you) like a child. Mind you, I’m alone with him sealing up the inside gaps around the windows, my partner is outside during this exchange. Same with the egress window tantrum; my partner was elsewhere.
This guy has been rude and hostile and then at times he’s fine. Small changes (a light block here, or a “Do you want to remove this?”) kind of question take him days to ‘decide’ on with usually me pushing for results, same with him doing things like moving junk away from the house for us to access outside walls, etc.
In short, the guy is an obnoxious
with some serious communication issues. Compounding that is that I think he hates women ( I was told by someone who knows the family well that he used to batter his wife pretty badly) and since I run the show and I am the one who handles the money and makes the final decisions, I have to deal with his hostility. He is somewhat calmer when my partner, an older male, is around, but not much and I can’t expect my partner to stand up for me as his communication skills aren’t much better and his hearing sucks, so he doesn’t pick up half of what is said, until the
starts screaming and his typical response is to scream back at hostility. I’m not sure if that’s a good way to handle someone like this (or anyone for that matter).
So. I am nearly finished as I said and wondering if he’s going to try to refuse to pay for the windows he didn’t want and ensue a long winded tantrum in order to get me to back down. I suggested selling them on craigslist, which I mentioned to him and in fact advertised one and had some interest, but then he said he ‘didn’t know’ what he wanted to do. Then he was going to use one in his garage loft and now he’s ‘not sure’.
Should I push this guy now to finalize a decision about the windows on paper before I lose all my bargaining chips and am left begging to get paid with a finished house he’ll enjoy? And, how do YOU deal with someone who’s hostile and prone to threatening verbal attacks as a form of avoiding responsibility or trying to get more than what they deserve? I assume guys who are on the giant side don’t see much of this. I remember my ex, who was a big guy was NEVER threatened by anyone, no matter what the issue, so I know its a matter of this guy thinking he can get me this way as I pose no physical threat to him.
Suggestions please as I’d like to rap this ugly prick upside the head and frankly, he causes me to get so angry that I can’t think straight and obviously, I need a strategy to keep my cool.
Replies
Did you have a change order written up when he agreed to the new windows? It doesn't sound like it.
I would have had a written change order and a check for the new windows in hand prior to ordering the new windows.
I'm 6'4, the biggest BS artist I ever dealt with was a 5'1" woman. She was a real pain, parsing contract language whenever she found the need.
One day she left the door wide open in the midst of one of her rants, and she walked away quite humbled, as she was one who tried to dictate her way based upon her own standard of flawed assumptions.
She was actually a treat to work with after that.
A good strong contract is the best thing for a good working relationship with people like these folk.
Mongo
Yes, Mongo, I gave him a written change order, I also have a change order policy in my contract and everything is in writing, very clear. Seems the guy just doesn't want to read anything or has a hard time comprehending. Remember when I said he wanted me to 'drop off' the contract for him to read himself? When came time to sign, he had it all ready and was at work. He avoids us quite a lot as well, he works late and when discussion time comes, he avoids and avoids. With the windows I had to push him for days, even after giving him (his wife actually) the change order -- most often paper makes people move, but it doesn't seem to move this guy.Just hoping that I won't have to deal with him blowing up in the end and trying to push the window issue again. I already had to take a nutbag to court for no-pay last year (sort of like the woman you describe only worse), so I don't want to go that route again if I can avoid it. Just want to get paid and move on.
I think this is where your gut instincts as to something weird about not wanting to review a contract together should kick in or will kick in next time. I think your at a point where you just need to get it done and get out and work hard to get your money. Have that nasty letter from your lawyer ready and get the lein paperwork in order.
It sucks-no doubt about it, and some clients will never be happy-just need to figure a way to avoid them.
Bruce
without more info-------------ummmmm, I would at least be open to the possibility that the guy actually can not read---or reads at a very limmited level.
you took the time to explain things verbally----but he may not have been listening---rather at those moments he was busy "acting" to cover up his in-ability to read?
AND--- he certainley doesn't want a woman to discover he can't read!
but hey,-- I am probably way off base with this,
Best wishes-Stephen
You are probably way off base. Because I was thinking the same thing, and I usually can't find the base.
Be afraid, - ;)
Somethings festering inside this guy - builds and builds, then lashes out, sure sounds like it's something inside. With some of the other anecdotal stuff she posted, I thought reading also.
Dammit! where'd that base go?
HOOOOOOOONEY, Have you seen the base?
Oh well.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I think Steve hit the nail on the head. A bully who doesn't like women and can't read. That was exactly what I thought as I read through it.
I think you are right about going through each area a couple times. Stand your ground, get your money, DON'T GO BACK! Life is too short to work for people like that. I think you have done a great job handling it so far! DanT
Yeah, I was only halfway thru her first OP when I was getting the idea that he can't read, which frustrates him and a woman who is literate and smart stirs up something deep inside of him that lashes out. She needs to avoid touching on that part of him to get through this.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I think you're right, you and the others about his probable inability to read. And I also think that he said, "yeah, yeah, I'm gonna do that" to puff himself up at the times when we discussed the work. If he wasn't so seemingly on the edge of violence most of the time, I'd feel bad for him.I appreciate everyone's response, which pretty much confirms my gut feelings. I discussed this all with my partner and told him he needs to be present with any discussions with this guy over the contract from now on and really pay attention to and participate in backing me up, or even taking front row in the discussion. He said no problem as he's getting better at dealing with people (he's kind of gruff), so we'll see how that goes.
complete the contract,get your money,get out.
his problems are not your problems
BUT-- I think it's ok to to feel a bit sorry for him on some level. Almost certainley he has some form of a learning disability--probably un-diagnosed--and it really isn't entirely his fault-----almost as certainley he went through school with a long string of teachers( women) telling him every day in a dozen verbal and non-verbal ways that he is "stupid" or " lazy" or--if he would just "apply himself" or "be better organized"--------------- but the long and the short of it is that almost certainley women in authority have told him he is stupid his whole life
equally as certain--therewas probably an area in his life he had the potential to be pretty good at---but it probably had zero value in a conventional school format--and so was overlooked or never developed.
thus ends stephen's dime store psychology observations--------------
good luck,
stephen
I think you've got it dead on Stephen. Maybe in your "retirement" you could be a shrink?!
Dyslexia needs a long time to read if they can at all
ADD needs distraction like TV to help focus and don't remember conversations well at all (like "I'll finish off the inside.")
And the anger toward women, including possibly his mom and/or sisters.
I wonder what he does for work. Surprised, if that's what's going on with him, he's not in the trades.
Geez, we should take the Breaktime Personality Test on the road! "5 cents and we'll guess your personality!"
Mike-- my wife is a teacher--she went into teaching in her mid 30's
when she started-- i told her that what i have noticed about teachers--is that they are people who did well within the framework of conventional schoolwork--so much so that most teachers have never really left school--it skews their view of what " hardworking'"is--or" intelligence" or "creative"--it causes them to reward rote learning and rule following-and ignore logic,and problem solving and thinking outside the box--and to totally denigrate mechanical or athletic attributes.
I started coaching at about that time in the same school----and she would come to some of the games( basketball and baseball)-and very quickly saw kids performing outstandingly as point gaurds or pitchers( pressure situations!!!!) that were labled as hopelessly lazy or outright dumb by their teachers
and she noticed that our own son------when he strapped on his catchers gear and put on his catchers mask--became an entirely different person-entirely in charge and in command of any situation
and that his love of baseball--overcame his reading difficulties-- he learned to read-because of baseball---------( he had to go to bed before the end of Indians night games-- so he would get up before anybody else and read the newspaper accounts of the game to find out what happened )
Later he became interested in music- guitar jazz and blues--and THAT led to researching long dead jazz and blues musicians, history,social justice etc.
so-- currently as a teacher-- she puts a lot of effort into finding out what troubled students are interested in or "good" at outside of school--and using that to trick them into reading,or math,or organizational skills---showing them that they ARE good at things--------------
anyhow---sorry for the highjack
stephen
Yup--some kids are good at school, some are good at other things.
I wasn't particularly good at school, but I am really good at taking tests. I crammed a whole semester of calculus over a couple of days, passed the final, and promptly forgot everything. Did that many times.
Good for your wife that she looks for that spark in each kid. Wish there were more like her.
I am the same. I graduated 85th out of 90. Yet tests have always been a breeze. When I taught school I had to take qualifer tests for my trade. Accidently they gave me a test for Architecture and one on Art. Each of which I know little about. (I was teaching Electric and Plumbing at the time) They called a few weeks later to apologize and say they gave me the wrong test and I would have to take the right one. But that I got high B's on both!
I took the HVAC test 12 years ago on one days notice and passed it for my certificate. And I doubt you will find many who no less about the air condtioning side than me. DanT
It's kind of a cursed blessing. Like you, I probably, no, definitely would have been better off in the long run if I had to really learn the material in order to get good grades. Getting good grades without actually learning the stuff is pretty pointless.
But that's how school is set up.
I've learned 100 times more out in the real world, where I'm not as comfortable.
When reading your account I was thinking the same thing Hazlett mentioned.
How would I handle this person?
With some clients there comes a point where you know, know matter what you do, the client isn't going to be happy. So why throw more time and effort into trying to make that happen? Concentrate that time and effort on clients you know you can please. Finish the job per the contract of course but forget any extra effort.
Runnerguy
Edited 11/18/2007 6:51 am ET by runnerguy
The term "Grinder" comes to mind, a client who grinds the contractor into submission or insanity. Have had more than my share of them, sometimes near impossible to deal with w/out bringing in a lawyer or a "Cousin from the Old Neighborhood"...
Although he may be illiterate (did I spell that right?) I'm thinking that it's more likely that he's A.D.D. or dyslexic and needs time alone to fully understand what a contract says before signing.
Shoot, I have none of those problems and I'd still like some time to read carefully through a contract which has been written by the other party, to make sure it doesn't give them all the leverage.
In any case, we're all agreed that it's in your best interests to continue to stand your ground, as much as the contract allows, and move on to greener pastures ASAP.
One point worth mentioning for others who may read this; when a client tells you that he/she wants to finish certain aspects of the job her/him self, it's NOT OK to just leave that part of the job off the contract. In order to protect yourself, you should write in "interior trim and finishing to be done by others" or words to that effect.
It's not that the HO might try to leverage you on that point, though that's always possible, it's more likely that he will simply forget saying that he would do that part himself.
I remember one job, all the interior work on a large new home, where the HO said that his father would pick up some of the smaller things, like installing locksets. He told me that during the meeting where we supposed to sign the contract as negotiated so, after we agreed on an adjustment to the contract price, I just wrote that part down in my notes.
So the last day of the job, we were about ready to wrap up when the HO showed up, as scheduled, for our final walk through. Of course he wanted to know where the locksets were. I reminded him of what he'd said but it didn't register. As it was our final day I'd brought the entire job file with me so I was able to refer him to my notes.
Had he not been a straight up guy, he might've held us up on our final payment.
Edit: I'm retired from many years of contracting but I still have uncomfortable memories of difficult clients and stressful times, coming up occasionally. Some of those were simply unavoidable life experiences, others I might've handled better.
By "better" I mean; in a way which eased my own tension while keeping my self respect clearly in view.
Having the inner strength and maturity to see the situation through an impartial objective lens, my own attitude included, is a priceless tool, one worth great self effort to obtain and to recall in the moment.
Edited 11/18/2007 9:47 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I would be willing to bet that when you've settled this affair, he phones you asking you to do more work as if nothing has happened. Some people are just not happy unless there is contraversy. There is a perfect way to deal with this situation, your job is discovering what that way is. Then you'll know for next time. Good luck!
Obviously, you are dealing with some form of emotional distress with this guy. He sounds like and emotional runner. Some of his actions indicate Bi-polar 2 and as other suggested, ADD or illiteracy.
You need to be firm, fair and calm. You also need to get things solved early and often in every negotiation. I might even consider making a tape recording of every conversation, if it's legal in your state.
I don't envy you. Situations like these are what makes remodeling not fun.
FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
You say that the windows cant be returned. Can you return them to your yard but at a loss. I know one of the yards here will somtimes take windows back put at something like a 20% restocking fee. Or will the yard hold them and see if anyone else will take them?
Good luck on this. I think it is a very wise decision to have both you and your partner present when dealing with this guy. Just be aware that having the two of you there may be seen as even more threatening to this guy. He may be prone to lash out even more. You should try and be even more calm and non-threatening in your interactions with him. Dont back down, just present the facts. Sounds like your doing the best that can be done with this situation.
Once again, good luck.
To add to some of the above comments, always follow your gut instincts.
It will always be the right thing to do.
Expert since 10 am.
That sounds like a very "challenging" guy. lol.
I think you have handled it exactly the way you should have so far, not backing down, writing out everything, following contract specs exactly, etc. It is easy for a customer like this to get inside your head and make you wonder if you really did promise this or that when it isn't all spelled out in a contract and change orders.
As far as the rest of the job, I would echo what the others have already told you- finish the work, get paid, and get gone.
You say your partner is an older guy? I would definitely have him around during all interaction with this kook. He doesn't even have to say anything or interact with the client in any way, just the presence of another person is a powerful piece of leverage to have on your side. Especially if he is a bully and, heaven forbid, he should try and settle up with his fists. Someone else has suggested recording everthing, that is a good idea IMHO. Lots of cell phones have memo recorders that can hold a fair amount of time.
Hope it all works out for ya.
Naive but refreshing !
im no shrink but i have noticed one strange behavior, Im married to a very beeutuifull woman also very very smart, meeting people through the years i have noticed some men hate her with a passion, keep in mind shes as sweet as could be, The men can be very rude to her and this shocks her, I might venture to say your pretty and i know your smart , I think this triggers a behavior in some men that have issues of some twisted sort, when i get a bad job i finish as fast as i can and get out, I think you just threaten his manhood, Your smart can fix things , Can take charge, Hey wait a second i feel threated by you now;)
Edited 11/18/2007 1:08 pm ET by bobbys
There's a few things that come to mind, from your tale. The first is, you have a CUSStomer.
Such folk will never, ever be happy. They bring lots of baggage with them ... they're convinced all trade types are ignorant buffoons, and all contractors are crooks. Working boring 9-5 jobs, they simply cannot understand a world where time matters, or that mistakes cost money. The worst part is that they believe that they are superior to, somehow outrank, the contractors - and become little Napoleons.
The best solution is to simply avoid such folks. Failing that, charge them more - an extra $20 covers an amazing amount of grief. Finally, there's the 'nuclear option:' walk away.
For example, I arrived at one job to find the floor excavated ... hard to set a ladder up on that! Call me back when you're REALLY ready. Another guy wanted me to put outlets in a wall that wasn't built yet. A third had the building approaches a muddy mire, as the gardener did his thing .... same story - call me when I can access the site.
As I see it, a customer has only two things he can do to influence me: repeat business, and prompt payment. If either is an unknown factor, they get full price. If either is in doubt, they pay extra. Shop around? Sure- take your problems to my competitor!
Likewise, I sometimes get asked to pick up where another contractor left off. Major warning sign there! You bet I'm having a chat with the other guy first!
My advice: Stick to your guns. Do your job. Lien at the drop of a hat. This guy wants to play lawyer, make it cost ... and cost ... and cost him!
Thanks everyone for your wise feedback! Today we worked a few hours on the job, he came out and was in a decent mood and was talking to my partner. He loves the way the house looks (dramatic improvement), but of course, doesn't say that, but stands and looks up at the half-finished gable wall and says, "Wow! My house looks so different!" That I think is about as much praise as I'll get and that's fine. Apparently he wants to keep the windows because he wants to do more work, wants to raise the roof, wants me to hook him up with an engineer I know to see if that's feasible. Fine with me, I'll oblige his fantasy in order to keep from having to fight about the windows. I think he does resent me and my abilities, a lot of people do it seems. Its too bad, I've worked hard to learn what I've learned and yes, I know what one person said about attractiveness, although I'm not good looking like I used to be, there was a time when I think that was an impediment with a lot of people, glad to hear it wasn't all in my head.He's a truck driver and I think works like a slave, long hours and most probably is very boring. There's no doubt in my mind that he was a victim of abuse as a child and a had probably had/has at least one disability that has exasperated that situation. It wasn't too long ago that such issues with children, such as abuse in the home and learning disabilities were pretty much ignored. I think there's also a tinge of class fear going on, even though I'm poor as a stone, I came from an upper middle class upbringing and well, don't talk like the class of people that I frankly am now, so often times I see people get put off by the fact that I am, well, verbose. Its the way I was brought up. When I was brought up, my lawyer father had no patience for poor English or poor thinking, if we weren't on the ball, we got teased or worse. Frankly, I have always had a bit of a learning disability with math and was constantly put down because of it. Only when I went to college did I put my mind to dealing with it and raising my ability above 6th grade level (one of the reasons also why I dropped out of high school), it was hard and I'm not where I'd like to be, but my point is that I can understand the embarrassment of not understanding certain things and if he were honest with me, I'd be more than happy to help him with reading through the contract without being condescending.I also think you are right Husdon, I should have put in the contract specifically, "interior finish not included in this project", which I've done before but didn't include on this one, why I don't know.
I think its time to setup a different system of making up proposals and contracts as well.Should have this thing done this week, so I'll let y'all know how it went.
just so U know yer not alone ...
2 summers ago I worked a long project for a woman ...
3/4 thru the job ... one day ... she comes out for the usual discussion.
she goes back into the house ...
I smile big and tell my helper "wow ... we really musta done good this time!"
he says ... "why ... did she finally compliment something?"
I said ... "nope ... but she didn't find one thing to complain about!"
sometimes ya just have to shut up and finish up and be ready to file suit if need be.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I have a formula to use with difficult people. When he makes an accusation or some unfounded criticism, say, "If I thought that (unfounded criticism), I would feel exactly the way that you are feeling. I don't blame you a bit. But there is an important difference that you do not seem to understand. Let me explain what is going on ...." Sometimes it takes the wind out of their sails if you find something in what they said to agree with.
The other thing you might try is to predict the problem of non-payment with him in a non-threatening way. For example, "there was another guy who decided that he did not like the decision he made (give example). I did everything that I was supposed to do and I did it well, but I had to take him to court to get paid. Don't you think that's wrong?" If he agrees with you that it is wrong, he has committed himself to paying. If he disagrees with you, you know you are headed for trouble.
Good luck.