Digging up stuff in a client’s backyard
Hudson Valley Carpenter
| Posted in General Discussion on
I used to install in-ground swimming pools for part of each year. Before beginning the excavation I’d ask the client if he had a site map of the property, showing any buried pipes, etc. If the reply was “no” I’d ask if he/she knew where the septic system and well were located, also if there was anything else we might hit.
In almost all cases the homeowner had one or the other, a map or accurate knowledge about stuff in the ground.
So the question is…after asking all those questions and being given permission to dig in the area clearly lined out, who’s responsible for replacing and repairing anything that gets dug up?
Of course I had a simple operating philosophy about such stuff but I’d like to hear what you think.
Edited 7/28/2007 1:44 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Replies
Depends a bit on your relationship with the client, and especially whether the client's the HO or not.
Last one I did was cut phone lines to 3 houses on the other side of the mountain from where I was digging, easily a mile away. I'd asked, was assured there was nothing there, then found some wire. HO assured me it was just scraps from the installation 20 yrs ago and that they'd followed the above ground elec easement nearby. Wrong. He was out $600.
The service here that locates, sometimes correctly, elec and phone is called Miss Utility. That client insisted there was no reason to call. He paid. When the service mis-marked my obstetrician neighbor's phone line I think they paid the phone co bill. At least nobody tried to stick me with it.
Another time, I was backhoe trenching along, everything marked by a private company, hired by the owner. Cut the wire powering the well pump for an extremely large barn full of race horses (on a hot day). Unfortunately, I didn't notice it and had no idea where it'd happened. Eventually found it, but the guy in charge of the horses wasn't amused. I told him to talk to his boss, the owner, who'd hired the marking. I was working for a landscaper, no problem.
Which is the key. You don't want to own responsibility for locating anything. Nice to be nice, but I'm not generally getting paid to accomodate that risk. When I've dug up hidden (non-utility) things for clients we're very clear about whose responsibility any repair will be. I'm pretty good at feeling sch 40 pvc before I destroy it, but not 100%.
Once had a HO with a map that wasn't anywhere close. No septic tank that I could find. Finally started trenching. Found a 4" pvc line (without damaging it). OK Go uphill or downhill? HO chose downhill. Finally reached the distribution box. Turned out I'd started 4' from the septic tank, buried under 6' of fill. I dig, leave the decisions to someone else.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Where I live, we call a number, called "Miss Dig" and they will come out and mark all the utilities. Well worth the call! I think most places have a similar service. I sure wouldn't rely on the customer!
I just read there is now a federally mandated numer, 811, that you call to do that. In Massachusetts this gets routed to Dig Safe, a service which in turn gets it to the local utility companies. But this won't cover something like a septic tank.
In gneral they don't cover anything but the lines from PARTICIPATING UTILITY COMPANIES.No, yard lightes, sprinkelrs, wells, drainage, etc.Also, the last time that I used it, my little city did not participate and they did not have the equipment trace their lines. Here, for a residential location they just use a locator company that just traces the lines. The utility companies don't come out..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I love that little jingle for the MO serviceCALL 1-800-DIG-RITEThen they show the guy with a hardhat on, sitting in a backhoe with water spraying out of the ground.
I have not heard that one..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
In Ohio, the place you call is OUPS (Ohio Utility Protection Service). They recently joined the 811 service. Not all Ohio utilities are members of OUPS, and not all states are members of 811 yet.
When I call to locate, I always ask who they do and do not locate. They will usually give me the name and phone number of utilities they do not notify (typically city water and sewer companies - such as Columbus). I call all of these. I also review the list of utilities they will notify to be sure nothing obvious is missing - phone, gas, water, sewer, cable, electric. It offers a little more assurance, and if I see another gas company's name on a meter I know to call OUPS and find out what happened.
I hit a 9 inch water main once with a drilling rig. Small town in southern Ohio. Water company fixed it on their tab since they were notified by OUPS and failed to locate.
Knew some others who hit a larger main in Columbus. Columbus water is not a member of OUPS and hadn't been notified separately, so it was the contractor's bill even though they had called OUPS.
Was excavating on one site and had a Marathon oil guy show up in a huff. They heard someone was digging and had a 24 inch diesel pipeline nearby (about 150 yards from where I was digging. The line ran through an easement on other end of the same property). Don't know how didn't get the message, but it didn't make me feel good. Did more work there seven years later - Marathon guy called me day after I called in a locate, gave me his mobile number and arranged to meet me on site. That was better.
OUPS will send out free wallet cards with a key to all the colors used to mark utilities, as well as their tolerance zones for both small and large cables, and how long the locate is valid. Always take a picture before you dig so you can document where they marked. Otherwise you have no proof you weren't within tolerance zone. I believe the tolerance zone here ranges from 18-30 inches on either side of the mark. If the locator can't get precise, he does multiple lines.
Private utilities are never marked by OUPS, and there is often a limit as to how far from property boundaries public utilities will locate. I don't often order a private locate, but I always talk to the property owner and walk around to see what could be present. I can rent a meter for about $40/day and have done this on occasion, particularly at gas stations.
Personally, I won't dig or drill without a utility locate, and we are clear with them that we will order a locate and they will provide access. I don't trust my customers to do the locate on time, remember to record the confirmation number, and remember to ask who is not notified. They are free to call in their own locate so it will be marked twice, but I always call myself.
About 6 months to a year I get a flyer from the pipeline company warning me that I am near one of their pipelines and to contact them before digging and listing all kind of emergency response numbers.And I could never figure out why.The closes that I know of is a gas line a couple of miles a way.And the way this area is there is no way that there would be any line with a couple of blocks.Well the last one had a map showing their lines. The closes one is two counties away.And this one had some contact inforamtion. But no one knew anything..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
we had a project where a light diseal productiom line blew under a house. It ruin the neigborhhod.
Be a real bummer to break a 24" diesel pipeline! When I worked at a refinery, we'd get crude from Canada through a 24" line--I forgot the absurd amount of oil that flowed through that in a minute, but it was on the order of filling a swimming pool every minute. I told this before, but I misread the tank when they were pumping and told them it had 1 foot when it had 11. (seems like I had to gage the tank every half hour while they were pumping) They called in a panic wondering where the 60,000 gallons of crude had gone! (Not sure about the amount, but that'd be fairly close for a tank about 100 feet in diameter--actually would have probably been closer to 150,000 gallons!)
Funny...this just happened to me on a job..
Had to dig a 24" trench to bury an elec. conduit and pull wire 250' down to a barn.. Asked client about ANY buried lines, etc., and was assured there was nothing except "one poly water line" feeding a spigot--but no clue as to where (I hit it, of course--buried 2" under the sod).
Client refused to get a locate, against my advice..My contract read, "Client shall take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for ALL un-located drain and water lines and buried cable. If feasible, Contractor will repair any damage caused and Client SHALL BE BILLED FOR ALL REPAIRS for all time and material costs, and any costs resulting from subsequent delays to the project."...something like that.
I actually hit 7 water lines (5 defunct poly irrigation lines from a former tree nursery, and two live 1" poly supplies) and 2 different cables (one in a conduit, one direct bury). Both cables appeared to be LV irrigation wire. Client was shown all damage and asked me to repair only the two in-use water lines and bury the now defunct irrigation wire.
..Completed the job, billed and got paid for it, plus the extra for the water line repair, deposited the check and went home.
..Next day got a call from Client..'one of the wires went to our irrigation lines in the front of the house...we want you to come fix it.' No prob, I say, I'll be there in a week.. While I be waiting for the original check to clear (5-7 days).
'Cause I know I'm going to have a battle when I come back to re-excavate my trench, find the damn wire, repair it, re-bury it, and BILL for the work..as agreed to.
Next time, the caveat on my contract will be much more menacing.. I thought..'what if one of those lines had been a live cable--like a 240 service for an outbuilding--and I'd have fried the $8K trencher I'd rented, and/or MYSELF...' Who'd of paid then?
Something like,.. 'Client shall assume full liability for all property damage, personal injury, and legal fees, should any un-located cable be struck while contractor is excavating on Client's property'.. may be in order.
Not sure this one qualifies but how about digging the Rite-Way front unloading, 6 wheel drive, 10 yd. concrete truck , fully loaded by the way, out of the clients septic tank.
"Damn, But I know that tank is on the other side of the house!"
UH HUH, the concrete gremlins must have been here last night while you slept and moved it.
That was one expensive locate paid for by the owner.
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
you dont want to dig in my yard, I got everything underground. power to house, cable to house, satelitte to house. water to house. water to sprinler system, power to shop, cable to shop. air from shop, power from shop.and only I know where it is. also septic tanks and lines. Did I tell you I doubled my system when I installed it
brownie, When I was building custom houses I always did an accurate "as built" site map showing all the utilities etc and then made copies. One copy for the owner one for me. Takes just a little time to do it and saves a lot of headaches."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
I did, I got map and pictures of everything, but if you dig in my yard you will hit something.
I thought this was going to be about treasure chests or family pets...
Yea, me too. All we found out was that Brownbagg probably has his money burried out in his back yard and we'll likely hit an electric line before finding the mayo jar full 'O' cash!
Doug
Edited 7/28/2007 8:37 pm ET by DougU
Actually the yard is completely clear. He just doesn't want anyone digging for the mayo jar...;o)
Yeh... That'll work.
probably has his money burried out in his back yard no, its in a bucket on the back porch, too heavy to move.
I thought this was going to be about treasure chests or family pets...
Ha! Don't I wish. The only interesting stuff I recall digging up were a few old bottles, just a little colorful history for the homeowner to stick in the kitchen window. This only happened behind old homes.
Went to start a fence called for locates, they paint gas, water, power different colors, Started and found pipes right away, called the locate and said hey i found pipes but there 12inches off the marks, They said its within 16 inches???? called the homeowner he said dig its your problem, Then the neighbor came and drove over my holes in a rage i guess they were fighting, Called back the homeowner he said he talked to his lawyer its my problem where to dig, I figured if this is how im starting this job thats enough for me im outta here, I had always thought the marks were above the pipes but found out thats not true
Had a similar thing with some old power lines once. Orange and Rockland Utilities sent out their guy with his detector. He painted lines all over the yard, while saying that he was getting readings that didn't make any sense. I asked him if he could detect a difference between the hot line and others and he said, "no".
Well we had a rubber tire backhoe so we went ahead and dug the pool. Found very old power lines all over the yard. My guess is that they just buried a bunch of old crap wire there along with other trash from the work site, some time in the past.
The "rules" for digging are pretty simple:
1) "Call before you dig" for all utilities; and,
2) You break it, you fix it.
That's really all there is to it. Now, it's nice to have a plan, or a knowledgeable customer ... but it's still your liability. Likewise, with experience you can get a pretty good instinct for just how deep things are, and what they are. This is all nice and helpful - but there's still your need to be careful.
Nor is this responsibility the sort of thing that can be eliminated by any contract or disclaimer.
Nor is this responsibility the sort of thing that can be eliminated by any contract or disclaimer.
Good thing I never dug up anything too serious then. :-)
But I have to say, that sure goes against all logic though.
IMO, the responsible person should be the one with superior, prior knowledge...the homeowner. The HO desires to build something new on his property so he should make efforts to discover what might impede that and/or possibly endanger those he hires to do that work. I say that all liability is his, should anything get damaged as a result of an action he deemed appropriate on his property.
I'm glad that, on the few occasions when we dug something up that needed to be repaired, the homeowner believed my version of legal logic.
My remedy was that I'd fix it free as long as the homeowner would pay for, and if possible, go get the materials required.
I still don't get why it's the contractor's responsibility to know what's under ground in the property owner's back yard. Following that logic, anything I find while I'm digging should become my property.
Nor is this responsibility the sort of thing that can be eliminated by any contract or disclaimer.I think that would depend on local Authority.SamT
Well, it's not really a matter of debate .... Naturally, the law' will vary from place to place, and your contractors' board is likely in a better position to give you an 'official' opinion. In a very real manner, that's what 'common law' is all about. There's not a topic that can't be twisted in a thousand different ways; over time, certain principles have become accepted as 'starting points.' Fixing what you break is but one such basic principle. This is also why we license contractors, require bonds, and have 'hold back' payments. A bit off topic, but it illustrates the point: I once worked alongside a tile contractor who had no license, and insisted all his work was 'as is,' with no warranty. Wrong! In this area, contractors -licensed or not - are required to give a one year warranty. Period. The courts will enforce it.
On the flip side ... suppose the unlicensed contractor had a claim against the customer. Well, the lack of license means that he can NOT sue to collect. It's one way to enforce licensing rules.
Or, suppose the contractor has failed to pay his workmans' comp premiums, as required by law. If a man is hurt, guess who gets stuck with the bill? The customer, that's who. Again, a way to discourage the hiring of illegal contractors. Now, more specifically:
Calling the "before you dig" number is one way to limit your liability. Damaging a utility can become very expensive, very quickly. Think of it as 'free insurance.' Doubt me? Just wait till you get the bill from the fire department, for their responding to a 'gas leak' call! One of the 'problems' with trade apprenticeships is that nobody ever gets an 'apprenticeship' in how to run a business. Far too many start their own business, thinking they know what they're doing. Far too often, a dream is shattered .... needlessly. Conventional employment is also something of the culprit here, as well. A guy gets paid $20, sees the boss collect $80, and thinks it's free money. The guy doing the work is sheltered from all the other things that are part of the job - finding it, managing it, getting paid for it, the follow up, the loose ends. Just as a man will go to class at night, as part of his trade apprenticeship, he needs to continue his education. He needs to get some accounting, some business, some law courses under his belt. Think of it this way: The dirt, and everything in it, belongs to someone else. You break it, you bought it. The customer is just asking you to move it around some ....
Well it is not alwasy that simple.I wonder about this case.A church bought some undeveloped land from a semirelated sister organization that had a several homes on the developed section.The sewer from those homes ran through the undeveloped section to the city mains.At the when the property was sold there was a separate Sewer Maintance agreement signed and filed, which defined the location of the sewer.When the church was built the sewer line was relocated, but no documentation was filed. Then the churhc was built right over the old location of the line.And 15 years later the church was sold. And no one around knew anything about this until the SMG was found.So who would have been responsable if some dig up the sewer?.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
A few years ago i had a septic put in , I told the owner where everything was and he needed to call too, He did not, First day a backhoe operator shows up i tell him where everything is his boss never said a thing to him, few days later another guy shows up digs up the gas line first thing , I was not there, the boss and the other guy never said a word to him, Gas company comes boy are they mad they said that guy never calls and does this all the time, They redid not only the part that was broken and replaced all the way to my meter on his dime, Since then i never assume anything from anybody yet if i start telling people stuff like this they look at me like im a nut.