DIMMABLE FLUORESCENTS – ceiling fan
toolbear
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
DIMMABLE FLUORESCENTS – ceiling fan
@@@
My boss is bound and determined that his ceiling fan lights will dim. Problem is, they won’t. They are pin-based compact flur. bulbs and his wall sliders don’t work with this type of load.
The fans are 54″ Hampton Bay whatevers from HD. They appear to have burned all the instructions upon installation.
There are dimmable flur. lamps. GE has a line. Did not find any today. Compact and pin-based is going to be a problem.
What is the workaround for this issue?
@@@
He is prepared to put in medium base lampholders for incandescent lamps that will dim.
The ToolBear
“You can’t save the Earth unless you are willing to make other people sacrifice.” Dogbert
Replies
google 'dimmable ballasts' - have seen replacement ballasts for that purpose for <$20 on ebay.
Yeah, but I think the ballast is separate from the lamp. May not be doable for his application.
I deal with this issue at work. It take a special bulb and a special ballast. If the fixture was a standard medium base screw in lamp holder you can buy a bulb only.
Here is the catch. No matter what you hear or they say you can only dim a flourescent bulb about 20-25%. Then it goes out and soon fails. If he truly wants a dimmable solution I believe incandescents are the only way to go. DanT
LED lighting is very dimable, and is just starting to approach practicality. They are still fairly weak, but that will change in the future. They also cost too much now.
I tried screwing dimmable LED lamps in a standard dimming config and they didn't work. Maybe it requires a special dimmer?
Lemme give you a clue (Good grief, what a crummy pun!). My daughter put a bunch of can lights in her LR on LUTRON Maestro dimmers in a 4 way switch situation. She put dimmable CFL's in the cans - no worky! She put ONE regular incandescent bulb in the first socket in the chain & voila! they now dim. Who knows why? Who really cares?DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Yeah, strange. I know enough about electricical to be dangerous. I know a little about the technologies. With the new technologies changing so fast, it is hard for me to keep up with it all.
A conventional dimmer may not work well, due to the low wattage of the bulb, and the fact that leds are current operated devices. Lowering the voltage may have no effect until the led sees a reduction in current. There may be electronics in the led bulb to maintain a constant current so the input voltage to the bulb may have to be very low before dimming occurs. LED devices are easily dimmed. I can tell you that increasing the current beyond specifications will result in less light and more heat until the device fails permanently. That is why I suspect there is control circuity in the LED bulbs, not just simply a transformer, rectifier, and resistor. Some of the low output 120v led bulbs may be made with crude circuits however, and would dim easy.
Yeah, there is some things about the LED technology that I simply don't know many details of. I've seen them used in a dimming condition, but don't understand the science behind it, yet.
If you're interested...
Here's a led bulb. The nice thing about diming a led is they get dimmer, but don't change color. theledlight.com has a number of replacement bulbs, but none that would work in your fans with pin sockets.
http://www.theledlight.com/A19-led-bulb.html
Yeah, to dim them you need dimmable ballasts.
I've been researching dimming CFLs recently. They make dimmable CFL lamps. But as someone else pointed out, I think their dimming range is limited (which can be OK) and their life can be short. You can get good performance from CFLs, but it's a package system where the ballast is separate from the lamp (i.e. whole fixture design).
However ... lighting technolgoy is changing VERY quickly. A solution may be out there or just around the corner.
Edited 11/7/2009 9:35 am ET by Clewless1
There are 3 types of "compact style" fluorescent lamps.
Standard replacement - what most people call CFL's. They use standard edison base and a few candelabra bases. They have internal ballast.
Some are available as "dimable".
The next two are designed for specfic fixtures.
The older one used two or for pin plug in tubes. The ballast is in the fixture. I remember seeing dimmable can lights that used this style of bulb.
http://www.energyfederation.org/consumer/default.php/cPath/25_173
The last is way of quickly converting the manufacturing of standard fixtures to ones that would use fluorescent only and thus meet the CA and similar codes.
They use a G24 bulb. That has 2 "top hat" pins and twist and lock.
http://www.energyfederation.org/consumer/default.php/cPath/25_2161
Those are light the CFL's in that they have the ballast in the bulb base. Thus the only difference in the fixture is that they use a different socket.
EFI does not show any that are dimable, but that does not mean that they aren't any.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Light DimmersThe common $5-10 light dimmer has uses a Triac which is an electronic switch, which once trigger, with stay on until the current level drops below a minimum value.They are triggered each 1/2 cycle by a pulse that is delayed from the start of the 1/2 cycle. The amount of delay determines the dimming. Then at the end of the half cycle voltage and thus current drops to zero and the switch turns off.Those work fine for simple resistive loads.Low voltage lighting, flourscents, and LEDs all present problems.They can use switching power supplies/ballast (electronic transformers) or magnetic transformers/ballast.The switching devices can cause problems as they can draw a surge of current and then very little which could cause the triac to drop out.With magnetic devices the current lags the voltage so that there is not always enough current for the triac to latch when fired.Also the flourscents and LED's are relatively low current draws that can cause the triac to never latch.Lutron does match dimmers specific for magnetic and electronic loads. Don't know the detailss of what they do. But there are some other kind of switching devices that can be used. Also instead of a pulse the triac and be triggered by continuous series of pulse during the desired on time.That said I would on a house that had some 20 year old tract lighting with a number of tracks and each track had a number of 12 lights with a switching power supply in each fixture. Some had failed due to bad bulbs, some from overheated sockets and some from bad switching power supplies.But they all worked fine off of standard dimmers. My guess is that it was because of the large number of fixtures on each dimmer and each one has a switching power supply so that they switched independently. It if was one large switching power supply then it there is a good change it would not have work correctly..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Bill -Would he be ahead to gut the fan of the black boxes and wire it up for simple incandescent (so to be outlawed and smuggled from Mexico) lamps?There are no wiring diagrams or manuals or information. Who knows what they did with the stuff. I was on vacation. Got witnesses.If you only get 25% dim and eat lamps, what is the joy of chasing CFLs.Besides, we need to talk about all the mercury they are dumping into the dumps. In a few years they will be whining about that.The ToolBear
"You can't save the Earth unless you are willing to make other people sacrifice." Dogbert
I assume that this is one without a built in remote control.If not it shouldn't be too much problem to change it.More of a mechanical problem changing the lamp holder.BTW, I installed a new fan/light a couple of months ago and found something interesting. There are some "new" energy regulations on the light in addition whatever weirdness that CA has.Found that most fixtures used dedicated fluorescents or candelabra based bulbs.I wanted a bright light, for a large room. Found one that takes 3 -60 watt candelabras. The interesting thing is that I did not mind fluourescents for this application, but none where that bright.But reading the instructions it mentioned a power limiter and then I did some searching. Seems that new, I think after Jan 2009, fan/lights have to be limited to 190 watts if incandescent and must have a device to limit the power.Now Lowes had some good, instant-on, candelabra based 60 watt CFL's. And in general they worked well.But sometimes, when turned, they would flicker.Instead of a simple fuse they used some kind of electronic limiter with triac.I bypassed it and had no more problems..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I assume that this is one without a built in remote control.If not it shouldn't be too much problem to change it.More of a mechanical problem changing the lamp holder.@@@@Given the Breaktime input over the weekend, M has thrown his paws up, abandoned efforts to dim things (for the time) and had me pull the dimmer switches and put in single pole Decoras. Just wait until a remote goes missing.Installed remote packages in both fans.The ToolBear
"You can't save the Earth unless you are willing to make other people sacrifice." Dogbert
Would he be ahead to gut the fan of the black boxes and wire it up for simple incandescent (so to be outlawed and smuggled from Mexico) lamps?
I can remember exactly what the limit is, I 200 watts on a ceiling fan light kit. All fans manufactured today can't exceed this limit. You will see most fans that used to have four bulbs (4 bulbs X 60 watts=240) have changed to three bulbs (3 X 60 =180). i ought to know I changed way to many lights kits in the displays at Lowe's to know. Also there the light kits must use candelabra base bulbs since you can't get over 60 watts in that size.
I really know about that 'cuz I spent all day listening to the elderly about their distruct of the "new fangled" bulbs.
By the way, incandescents are going to be outlawed soon too.
The GU-24 that bill spoke of is used to be people from converting light fixtures to incandescent. The People's Republic of California requires them.
By the way, I think GE already smuggles those incandescents from Mexico.
View Image
Proud Resident of Obamistan
I really know about that 'cuz I spent all day listening to the elderly about their distruct of the "new fangled" bulbs.By the way, incandescents are going to be outlawed soon too.The GU-24 that bill spoke of is used to be people from converting light fixtures to incandescent. The People's Republic of California requires them.By the way, I think GE already smuggles those incandescents from Mexico.@@@@Look for the man in the raincoat. Samples therein. I figured that pin base was to prevent acts of Politikal Inkorrectness on the part of consumers. The Peoples Republik knows what is best. (Except for their budget.)The ToolBear
"You can't save the Earth unless you are willing to make other people sacrifice." Dogbert
"All fans manufactured today can't exceed this limit. You will see most fans that used to have four bulbs (4 bulbs X 60 watts=240) have changed to three bulbs (3 X 60 =180). i ought to know I changed way to many lights kits in the displays at Lowe's to know. Also there the light kits must use candelabra base bulbs since you can't get over 60 watts in that size."I was just at the Lowes Independence store today. They have 3 different models of separate add on light kits that take 4 60 watt bulbs.One of the display models had edison based bulbs. But the pack of that one, and the others, said 4, 60W candelabra bulbs..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I have two dimmable CFLs, Edison socket, on a 3-way circuit in my hallway. When I remodeled my house, I left these two original sockets and just stuck the dimmable CFLs that I happened to have in them. To meet the Calif. lighting code all the other lamps were changed to fluorescents, GU-24s in the bathrooms and the kitchen central main light and fluorescent tubes for under and over cabinet lighting (I have only one resistance type light in the house - a 50 watt pendant track light over the sink). In Calif. to meet the current lighting code, half of the wattage in the kitchen must be high-efficacy lighting, bathroom must be fluorescent or on motion sensor (guaranteed to go dark in the middle of a long shower...), and hallway lights must be high-efficacy or on dimmers (and of course, everyone will carefully turn them as low as possible to save energy...) Anyway, I have read that the dimmable CFL's should be started at high power and then dimmed, which is pretty impractical when only one of the three way switches controlls the dimming and the object of the lights is allow you to see while you walk to the other 3 way switch to turn the lights off. Consequently, I almost always just leave the CFLs half dimmed and just turn them on and off with both switches. They have only been in place for about a year, so I will see how long they last and then replace them with incandescents when they go - if they are still sold in Calif. by then. I would appreciate a good explanation of the detrimental process than occurs when starting the dimmable CFLs at half brightness, however. Thanks
> I would appreciate a good explanation of the detrimental process than occurs when starting the dimmable CFLs at half brightness, however.I'm guessing the tube needs to warm up to fully vaporize the mercury.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Well to be technical they can't be manufactured anymore...
Before I left, Lowe's was considering changing all the displays on the light kits but decided not to....
If they still have inventory in the warehouse then they can still sell the light kits. Betcha if you looked on the shelf those four lights changes to three.
Besides, they kept me on the Kansas side to keep me out of trouble...
But ain't really my problem anymore.... :o)
View Image
Proud Resident of Obamistan
Edited 11/10/2009 10:53 am by leftisright
Tool Bear, Lutron and Leviton both make dimmers for CFL's; very pricey, of course, something like $30 to $40.
The HO would need to know that unless he always starts them at full brightness until they get started and then dims them, bulb life will be shortened drastically.
Tool Bear, Lutron and Leviton both make dimmers for CFL's; very pricey, of course, something like $30 to $40.@@@Mike has money. This seems to be a Jones item with him. Will they dim stock CFLs? These fans have pin base CFLs. Not sold in any store.The ToolBear
"You can't save the Earth unless you are willing to make other people sacrifice." Dogbert