My next door neighbor (Cleveland area) underwent the required inspection by the city in order to put his house on the market. One of the items that the city inspector has required before the house can be sold is to replace all of the pull-chain ceiling luminaires with non-pull-chain ones, and to control them with wall switches. Although many rooms have been updated (e.g. kitchen) most of the electrical was last updated probably sometime in the fifties. All of the affected fixtures are in finished areas, not updated since then — a couple closets, and about 10 in the basement — therefore will require tearing open the ceiling and walls. (And yes there ARE already at least one wall-switched light in each basement room.) The house has been well maintained and this is the single most expensive violation. To make sure it gets done, the city is requiring $6000.00 placed in escrow. It seems like overkill to me. Is there a new regulation prohibiting pull-chains now? And can it be retro-actively applied when there is no new remodeling going on in those areas?
Rick
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Replies
RF switches.
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There is a building code, but also what is commonly called a property code.
That is the one that covers borken windows, pealing paint, and cars on blocks in the front yeard.
Inspect on sales by the government are not very common. And when they are they are often poroperty code inspections. And a few thinks that relate to immedate safety concerns. Thinks like smoke detectors and possible conditions of flue pipes and the like.
Current electrical code does require a wall switch that operates one light or receptacle in the room.
"- a couple closets, '
Probably best to just elimating them and install a blank coverplate.
The location and type of fixture probably does not met current codes. And rewiring might require that they met current code. But I wonder if the "code" that this inspector is going by does require wall switches for closet lights.
What city is this?
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Cleveland Heights.
Best I can tell it is part of the housing code.http://www.clevelandheights.com/citydept_housing_inspection.aspAnd they have a checklist here.But the checklist is not that detailed."All lights, switches and receptacles must be
installed in the laundry area and for the
refrigerator."Do they REALLY mean that.ALL lights and receptacles MUST BE installed in the laundry area and for the refrigerator.That say that you CAN NOT have lights and receptacles anyplace else."û Pendant lighting fixtures should be replaced
with an approved fixture."Lots and lots of house have new, expensive pendant fixtures. I wonder if they mean the drop cords with a keyswitch socket.If you look at the rest of the light is fairly basic. No broken windows, not holes in the floors, etc.I would print out the check list and then ask to talk to the department head and have him explain the list..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
It reads like the guy who wrote it did'nt know what he was writing!
Wow, Bill. You found the "code" that they are apparently going by --- i.e. the city's own write-up. Indeed, the electrical part is unintelligible (definitely makes it up to the individual inspector's interpretation). Here's another mysterious sentence: "At least one window in each habitable room must be operable to include sash cords or clips." (Mine are all casement, for example.)
But some of the other ones spooked me a little also. For example, the requirement for 3' around the furnace and water heater. Mine have that clearance only on two sides, not all four. I hope they don't make me move mine --- the furnace is the size of a Volkswagen Beetle.
Rick
If the electrical is up to the standard when it was installed, I would question the citys requirements on this. sounds like over zealous power trip by city worker!
That's what I thought. As recently (when I last checked) as four years ago, pull-chain lamps were NEC approved, if there was already at least one fixture operated by a wall switch near the entry. So the ones in the basement were certainly up to code when they were installed.
If they are truly just over-zealous, i.e. not going by the NEC, I am not sure how to battle them.
Rick
While most of us are building to this code or that, there is a wide range of "interpretations" even on specific codes that seem cut and dried.
Interpretations made based on the intent of a code can be far more reaching than what's in the published book.
Each code enforcement jurisdiction is different and some stick to the book and others are a moving target with new changes each year.
If you lived here any room significantly modified would have to be brought up to todays code, while others untouched would be ok. Having said that there are exceptions and you'd probably need smoke alarms regardless.
You can always talk to the next step up in the building department and ask for an exception, or file a formal request or complaint.
In the future it's probably not a bad idea to have an inspection visit up front to ask specifically what they will require.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
> If you lived here any room significantly modified would have to be brought up to todays code, while others untouched would be ok.
Yup, that's the situation most places. But here it looks like they want to bring the housing stock up to many aspects of current code every time it changes hands.
> You can always talk to the next step up in the building department and ask for an exception, or file a formal request or complaint.
On the site that Bill Hartman found, they do have an option for just such a clarifying inspection:
"ADVISORY INSPECTIONSClarification of language or a particular violation may be obtained by calling the Inspectional Services office at 216-291-5900 and speaking with the inspector who conducted the inspection. If additional information is needed, a site inspection may be scheduled with the inspector."
What really bothers me is that it appears that some past work --- for which appropriate permits were pulled, and inspections done --- is going to have to be redone if, say, I sell 5-10 years from now.
Rick
What really bothers me is that it appears that some past work --- for which appropriate permits were pulled, and inspections done --- is going to have to be redone if, say, I sell 5-10 years from now.
Yep that's a hard one to swallow when it does happen, and it happens all the time. Locally we have the electrical inspectors changing how codes are inforced sometimes based on as little as a single journal article or local incident. They attribute it to a change in interpetation, but they essentially have rewritten some completely, unwritten of course. We have to pick our battles because sometimes it's a $2k interpretation and we hate to wear out all the good will on outlet locations. Sometimes you have to draw a hard line.
If you feel strongly that what they are doing isn't right I suggest addressing it to the head of the electrical inspection department. You might have an over enthusiastic inspector that the head guy keeps getting complaints about and you're home free. Or he may suggest you're wasting space in his office. :-)
As much as I hate doing business this way, often the sqeaky wheel gets the grease when it comes to code enforcement. Many of their decisions could go one way or the other and it makes a change not uncommon with a little prressure. The codes are not black and white to say the least.
Best of luck.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I would ask the inspector "wow thats interesting, where did they put that in the code book?"
and now you wonder why wally world wont hire them.
My two cents
The whole point of these POS inspections is to keep up property values. What I wish that these cities would realize is that they are shooting themselves in their own feet. These exorbitant escrow requirements and repairs for items that should be grandfathered in are making many homes in this predominantly bank owned market unnattainable for an average homeowner, who will not want to spend the time and money to rehab a house that really might not need a complete rehab! The remaining buyer pool is investors, who will pay rock bottom prices for the house, thus driving property values down. In my experience as a list agent for the banks, the lowest values in Cleveland's east side suburbs are found where the POS inspections and assumption process is the most difficult! They are destroying their own tax base, and also not doing any good for the environment when they require new driveways and roofs when the existing ones might have a few years left in them!
Very odd. I know that if he were having renovations done to the home, affecting electric, it would likely be a requirement.
But point of sale inspection?
These cities are getting too much power.
Our own ARB has gotten carried away....not to this pint yet, however.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Inspectors are supposed to be like policeman - not inventing the law, just enforcing it. Your neighbor should ask the inspector for the source of the regulation that requires the upgrade. The inspector should be able to name the source and say where to find the regulation in it. If there is no such regulation, or if the regulation contains vague language that allows inspectors to make arbitrary demands, your neighbor may have grounds for an appeal. The city will have a board for this purpose. Contact the Cleveland Building and Housing Department
http://www.city.cleveland.oh.us/government/departments/bldgandhousing/bhind.html
> The inspector should be able to name the source and say where to find the regulation in it.Good point. And sometimes inspectors get it wrong. One wanted me to increase a stairway headroom 2", but had the wrong figure in mind. Knowing the code saved me a whole lotta grief. It pays to read up on the relevant regulation and know its requirements and workarounds.
If the inspector demands the switched ceiling lights, I would be tempted to use wiremold fastened to the face of the wall, especially in the closets.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I'd second Piffin's suggestion for RF or X10 switches. X10 switches can be added wherever there's already a powered switch; RF (radio frequency) switches typically can be stuck wherever desired. The receiver/relay is installed at the fixture or somewhere inline to control the device.
When I moved into my current house a couple years ago, the downstairs lights were only controlled by a switch at the top of the stairs. Replaced that switch with the switch/receiver/relay unit & sticky-taped the flat wall switch to a convenient spot downstairs - presto! instant 3-way switch. Cost me $8 or $9 since I found the unit at a discount outfit (only one they had, haven't seen them since there) Normal price I believe is $15~25. More expensive units are available which don't even require a battery.
Don
I had to have a home inspection before I could sell my house in Illinois, in an area that had several burglaries. My doors had windows in them (okay, lights), so I had inside deadbolts that required keys. The inspector said that was a deadly fire escape hazard, so I changed the deadbolts in order to sell the house. My next one had the keyed deadbolts, however. Point is, I'm very safe about fire, and I'm not going to give the burglar a head start as a result. Most codes I've seen are written to account for the idiots among us and the most unlikely of circumstances. Once again, gumint is protecting us from ourselves. Consider the paradox recently of requiring car booster seats and then discovering that their emitted chemicals are toxic. Hmmm.