A few months back, a few guys suggested a technique of adding a little dish soap (Joy, etc.) to mud to aid in application and eliminate some the the “peeling” that inevitable occurs. I wanted to give this a shot, and started wondering…how much?? Anyone have a suggestion at how much to add say per gallon of mud?
Thanks!
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Replies
I've seen it done down here and heard of it from others ...was talking to a guy that did it and he said just a squirt or so for a 5 gallon tub of the stuff, so i guess I'd equate that to about a tablespoon per gallon??
Never tried it myself, Ive just always dumped a box of compound into a 5 gallon pail, added a touch of water and then mixed it with a drill, always went on smooth with few bubbles if any and didn't seem to curl. One of these days I'm gonna try the soap deal......
If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
pop the top on a 5 gal bucket ...
add about 1/4 inch deep.
mix ...
sometimes need another healthy squirt past the half way empty mark.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Edited 7/26/2005 2:44 pm ET by JEFF J. BUCK
Really?? They use that much per pail?? Is that just to smooth out the mud or is there another reason??? I've been curious about it ever since I heard it the 1st time.....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
that's not alot ...
not compared to the dish soap/ joint compound ratio.
I use it so it's "creamier" .... just works better. Doesn't make it dry faster as when U thin with water.
years back in trade school was when I first heard of it ... they had a USG rep come in and give a talk. He said they're already "soap" in there .... so adding a little more for a custom blend wasn't a big deal.
I've added more and less over the years ... never had a problem.
coupla years ago someone told me they "knew of" a guy that had to file bankrupt as adding some dish soap led to a big lawsuit.
what ever ...
No lawsuits here.
just wet the top of a new bucket ... mix .. take it from there.
U can always add more later.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
please clarify- what is the soap supposed to prevent? peeling and curling- not sure i know what you're talking about. granted, i don't normally do lots of JC work, but i'm getting ready to, so i'd appreciate more info- thanks
prevents nothing.
just makes it smoother and easier to work with.
plus ... smells good.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
mmmmMMMMmmmm... jointy!
I put a couple ounces to a 5 gal pail. Makes it nice and smoothe like frosting a cake
Try Mud Max, by Trimtex. Same end result - smoother, easier to work with, but with the bonus, it's all acrylic and adds to the bonding properties. Supposedly sticks better to things like bead. I'll vouch it sticks better to glass. And I like the way it sands better as well - doesn't sand quite as easily, but the little difference I think does make it easier to make the surface smooth, i.e. less scratches. Probably matters more for those using a power sander rather than sweat equity.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Many of the tapers around here put a healthy squirt into a 5 gal. bucket. I've never seen anyone use as much a Jeff suggests. I stopped using it and prefer my mud straight from the pail. The looser it gets, the harder it is to keep on your knife and off you, especially on ceilings. What do you mean by peeling and being inevitable? I'm not sure I've ever seen that.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Kid, if DW mud will inevitably peel then all those of us that do DW should run to the hills due to all the HOs that will come after our throats. I"m not sure what you're trying to prevent here, what "peeling" are you referring to? Never seen it and I work with mud all the time. Never had to use dish soap either, can't for the life of me figure out why it's necessary for others. If I get any airbubbles, so what, the skim coat fills 'em in on the finish coat.
If you're bent on trying something, maybe WD40 would work better. God knows a few squits of that will do ya, and anything else :)
I've never felt the need to use any additives in the compound. (I prefer standard rather than 'light', too, which makes me odd around here.) First time I ever heard about this dish-soap stuff was here on BT. If you're doing okay with the method you use now, don't worry about it. Lots of tapers just dig it outta the bucket and go to town.
As for 'inevitable peeling', I don't know what you mean. I've never had joint compound peel off on me, even using metal corner bead. Where have you had a problem with this, and under what conditions?
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
What I am trying to avoid is when you get little "peel-offs" as you mud. Best thing I can compare this too is when you are rolling dough with a rolling pin and you get some that sticks to the pin and "peels off" the baking sheet. It may be I simply have a tendancy to pull too tight with the kinfe or lay my mud on too thin?
If you're having the compound stick to the knife instead of the wall, go wash your knife in clean water, shake it mostly dry, and go back at it.
I don't mix in the bucket, either. I'll pull a shovel full out and dump it on my hawk, work it back and forth once, then slide a bead onto the knife and go for it. I find that the more I work the mud, the harder it is to get a smooth pull. The stuff loses its body when it gets mushed around too much....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
kidbuilder and dave- duh, YEAH! mud over a dusty wall and it's not gonna adhere. . . paint on a dusty wall and it's not gonna adhere- in the amount of time you whip up your concoction of soap and mud, you couldda done the right thing and whacked the dust off the wall with a tshirt or swept the walls fast with a broom. re. the dough comparison, excellent analogy, but you missed the lesson from it: the reason you dust your board with flour before you knead dough is precisely so it won't stick.re leftover mud added back into the bucket- before i seal up the bucket for the night, i scrape the insides clean and put the soft excess back into the bottom and knock down the peaks. it stays moist and there's no waste. it's all the peaks and irregular mess climbing up the inside walls that dries out, cumbles down contaminating the good stuff, and leaves skid marks on the wall.
Edited 7/27/2005 12:23 am ET by MSM
Never tried the soap thing either, but I thought the soap additive was to stop those annoying little air bubbles from forming. I've never had peeling problems either unless I skim onto glossy paint.
I don't worry about the bubbles on the first coat; they'll all get filled in on the second one. I use a 16" float for that, and push a lot harder and go more slowly. Any new bubbles get popped underneath the float . On a good day, on board that's well hung with no butts, coat number two is the final coat (wish all days were like that, LOL).
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
The only time I've ever had drywall compound "peel" was when I tried to mud over an area that had a lot of dust on it. It sorta curled up as my knife went over the dusty area.
I've never used the soap trick and find that a few quick stirs in my mud tray will make the mud as smooth as silk. I've also figured out (finally) that it isn't a good plan to put unused mud back in the bucket.
I don't do much mudding, but I've tried the soap.
I've also tried openning the five gallon bucket and mixing it up without adding anything.
I can't tell the difference between soap and no soap, but I do like the result of the mixing, so now I always mix the contents up before using.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
I use No Pock Pro made by Warner Tool.
The label states that it reduces pock marks, less shrinkage, faster and fewer applications and saves time.
It comes in a 64 oz. bottle and claims to treat 16 5 gallon pails so it comes out being 4 ounces per bucket.
The mixing instructions are for taping and topping compounds plus one for setting compounds, both suggest adding water for desired consistency.
My thoughts are that the pock marks come from mixing at high rpm's. I feel it is the same as portland products that warn against air entrainment from high speed drills. I use a 1/2" Makita with gear reduction and only spin it a half speed.
Around here I've heard Palmolive being the brand of choice as far as dish soaps go, I doubt it really makes any difference though.
All that being said I only hope that it reduces the air bubbles which in turn leave the pock marks. As for shrinking less, I don't think thats a problem on the finish coat. As for being faster, maybe so if it goes on smoother, less application I don't see happening, it's a three coat process on most occasions.
I do use the green top for taping as it gives a stronger bond, then use the light weight easy sand for the 2nd and 3rd coats.
RU
Detergent reduces the surface tension of water molecules, enabling them to wet other substances better. That's why soap or detergent helps to clean your hands, or your dishes - It helps the water penetrate the grunge. My guess is that adding it to drywall compound has a similar effect, helping the water in the compound penetrate the paper and creating a better bond.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
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None of this matters in geological time.
We have spoken about this before and I mentioned for ya all to use La Farge Classic Joint Compound because it does not have pinholes..has anyone tried it?
Adding any foreign susbstance to a formula will only deteriate that formula..it's like putting STP into Mobil 1. These engineers spend years developing a formula, testing and then someone adds a foreign chemical destroying the formula.
These pinholes are only found on the light muds..basically on corner beads and angles where the mud is put on thick. Has anyone ever seen a mud pinhole on a screw or nail head? None on seams either because of the pressure on the final wipes them out.
I hear that beer also works..but that's asking too much.
That's used beer."When a right front tire goes at 180 mph, the first thing you do is shut your eyes real tight so's your eyeballs don't pop out when you hit the wall." - Kenny Wallace
That's used beer.
LOL!
those engineers come up with a nice "average" formula that obtains "average" results in "average" conditions.
when joint compound is "region specific" ... your theory will make more sense.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
And remember how much a bucket of joint compound costs. Maybe $10?How much does 24 oz. of dish soap cost? $3?I wouldn't be surprised if I found out the the mud companies could make their product a lot better for 50% more but no one would want to pay it.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
when joint compound is "region specific
Joint compound is made to work in temps from 55 to 150 with humidity from zero to 100.
Nothing to regionalize..the temps and the humidity are within those parameters throughout the continental USA..unless of course your in Nome..then ya turn up the heat and keep it on.
took me a while to realize most of you were talking about adding soap to powdered mud for mixing, not ready-made jc. i see now that like andy said, it's an emulsifier that does help it mix smoother. but-does this create problems later for paint going over it? it seems like the soap, if there's enough present, could really mess with paint adhesion. if so, this "trick" is a trend that needs to be nipped in the bud-
Actually, I'm pretty sure most of the above posts are talking about adding it to the ready to use compound. Maybe many add it to the "powdered mud for mixing", but I'm betting they wait until after it has been mixed with the water."it seems like the soap, if there's enough present, could really mess with paint adhesion."That may be true, but I don't think that anyone is adding near that much soap."if so, this "trick" is a trend that needs to be nipped in the bud-"That bus has left the depot.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
"Actually, I'm pretty sure most of the above posts are talking about adding it to the ready to use compound."
but i've never had any bubbles or pock marks in the premixed stuff- seems like that would be more of a problem resulting from mixing from scratch and using right away while air is still trapped, also a problem created by adding the soap and mixing even into ready-made.
there's a concurrent discussion about dusty walls causing paint to peel at another forum for decorative painters. one guy came into a brand new home after the 'straight' paint crew (insert joke here) had already done their work, and he's noticing bad peeling of the first coat of paint. couple of answer posts suggesting the walls were too dusty from the construction for the paint to bond well.
makes sense to me-
Edited 7/29/2005 10:58 am ET by MSM
I think most were talking about readymix buckets of mud.
The pitch of your knife will also reduce air bubbles. I along with many others that I have observed place mud at about 30 degrees. If you lift your blade up to 45 degrees or even 60 degrees on the finish coat you will notice that the air bubbles have disappeared, why, I have no idea but it works.
RU