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b Dispense With Rain Gutters?
I’m about to finish a new two story house in the country.
The owner says he knows a friend, a general contractor in Virginia, who no longer installs rain gutters.
Instead, this contractor digs a trench about 18″ wide directly under the roof edge, completely around the perimeter of the house. The trench is abut 18″ deep too, I think he said. And the trench is filled up with “chat” or small limestone, or small rocks of any kind which don’t dissolve in rainwater.
He says this does away with leaves and pine needles filling up the gutters. Says it eliminates a little fire hazard since there aren’t any gutters to collect leaves, etc. Gutters don’t get blocked up since there ain’t any. Gutters don’t wear out since there aren’t any.
Now of course, my owner wants me to install this system.
I confess I’ve never seen this system in operation.
Does anyone out there have experience with it? I’d appreciate your comments and advice.
What are the drawbacks to such a system?
If I’m gonna do it I want to do it before the power is hooked up to the house; don’t want one of my guys electrocuted digging around the base of the house or screwing up any of the cables coming in.
It does sound kinda nice in that no gutters would improve the appearance of the roofline, in my opinion. But if this were such a proven thing, I would expect to have seen it all around the country and I haven’t. Or maybe it’s out there and I just haven’t noticed it.
Thaks for any guidance
William
Replies
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if you have some overhangs this can work well - if you don't all the water off the roof blows against the walls and is near the foundation - if there is a lot of rain you might want to consider some drainfield pipe to daylight - to take the water out of your trenches before they fill up. other than the overhang deal i'm for it!
*Check the archives, there's been some disc. recently. I have no gutters and can not complain except dodging the water getting in the door. You could deal with that with an entry cover or don't use a hip like me. 2 ft o-hang here.Sound waterproofing and stone all the way down to a drain tile at the base of the footer is a good idea. Water from 2 story has a lot of force so you will have splash back to contend with. You'll have to hold perimeter plantings a ways back which you should do anyway. After 10 yrs. no problem with moisture on hillside house half in the ground at the back. Best of luck.
*I think it's a better idea to move water coming off of the house away from the foundation in a controlled way.a 30' x 40' house will have about 840 gals coming off the roof for each inch of rain, with the same amount in the 6' perimeter on the outside of the house.Also, you're going to get a lot of splash back, even with the stone (which will get covered pretty quickly with all of that stuff which they'd be cleaning from the gutters - and try to stop them from putting mulch on top of the stone.) How long before it penetrates the siding and gets into some area of the framing?Bob
*If the water freezes in your area a lot of saturated soil will push the foundation wall in .
*we ALWAYS design for no gutters... since 1973.. and many parts of the country traditionaly have no gutters..at the same time we do install a lot of gutters.. copper, aluminum, and fir...the secret to NO gutters is generous overhang and good grading away from the foundation... or well drained soil.....the drip area can be stone, or grass, or a planting bed..where the water winds up should be part of your overall strategy for handling water....ground-water.... roof run-off....water drainig onto your property from uphill abutters..you've got to have a plan... concentrating roof runoff into a few downspouts just moves the problem downstream... except now you've probably eliminated the option of allowing the water to seep into the ground... you now have to move the downspout water away..plus maintain your gutters... plus clean them out two or three times a year...gutters are an unneccessary evil in most instances..if the saturated soil is pushing your foundation in , you've got more problems than no gutters....b but hey, whadda i no ?
*Mike. How many damp or wet crawl spaces and foundations result from, among other things, lack of gutters? The other things being, of course, inadequate ground slope, bushes, shrubs, flower beds and what have you next to the foundation. Have you had any experience with the gutter covers that "prevent"the gutters from filling with leaves and pine needles? By the bye. Next time you are buying screening from your dealer, ask him the name of the manufactrer of the bronze screening you use in soffits. GeneL.
*Calvin and Mike have some good advice.Large overhang, the widest possible, 2-3 ft.Hardscape below. Concrete slab or 5" of gravel, either very generously sloped and lined with poly.Personally, I'd install a french drain, you know, a 4" ABS perforated pipe below grade which dumps into daylight at the lots low spot. Lotsa information on the design in archives.
*Gene.... the total number of wet foundations and crawl spaces i have see due to lack of gutters is ZERO......i have seen a lot of wet foundations and crawl spaces.. all due to improper grading, or ignoring the water table level.. or not planning how to take care of the run-off from the downspouts of the gutters..AND.. i have seen more houses that had wet foundations and crawlspaces with gutters than without.. screen systems that are supposed to keep the leaves out all work... for a while.. then most of them fail... the ones that seem to work better than most are the ones like ((gutter helmet)).. very expensive.. ugly as sin..if you do a lot of roofing , you'll get a lot of first hand knowledge about how gutters work and how they don't work....both from a maintenance standpoint and from an improper design / installation standpoint....just for one example.. how many ice dams start as gutter porblems?gutters are one of those items that you have seen that are accepted by the public as being neccessary , when in fact .. in a lot of instances they are not necessary..AND.. i think yur still beating that screen thing.. i measured the spaces.. i know what the results are.. send me yur fax number and i'll fax you a zerox of the screen and you can see for yourself that it is mostly open.. or i'll mail u the sample.......... my stamp
*I've seen this and other methods of catching and directing roof water away from houses. Almost any method of capturing the water and moving it away from the house seems to work. Not having any vegetation next to the house seems to help a lot.I have never seen a wet basement/crawlspace or foundation failure due to this. Most of the one's I've seen are due to subsurface soil conditions or water flow that has not been redirected. For example; a house in a swale where the shallow aquifer flows to the house and may puddle. There a sump pump is mandatory. The only downside to not having gutters is getting in and out of doors unless the door is under the gable end. For that a diverter or gutter seems to be best.
*FWIW, I see very few houses in my neck of the woods without gutters, so I can comment on basement crawl likelihhods. I see a fair number of garages without them, and a lot of rotted siding (although they generally have little overhang and are pretty close to grade.)Bob
*Gutters are not popular here in Tidewater VA, since fascia details often include crown, and the colonial homes never had gutters. Generally speaking, the more expensive the home, the less likely you are to see gutters. Additionally, overhangs are not much to speak of... 12" or so is typical. Also, no rake overhangs.So, "ground gutters", typically of aggregate concrete or brick are used in conjunction with burried drains to carry the runoff to daylight. Local codes are strict regarding slopes away from the residence, too.I've never seen what you have described, William, and would not recommend it. Frankly, it sounds like a french drain with no outlet to daylight, and could only contribute to crawl space moisture and freeze/thaw problelms. In fact, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the design your friend proposes is WORSE than no gutter and a good slope.You might want to look into a proprietary product like "Leaf Guard" if you install guttering. I've used this type of gutter on some room additions, and have never had a call-back.Good luck, Steve
*My viewpoint is from a home ownerr and also as anarborist..I live in Minneapolis and gutters are more common than not here.What does an arborist know about gutters? One of the free services I give my clients when I am up in their trees is to look at their roof and gutters. Over the years I have seen some roof problems that would not be seen from the ground. I can also see which gutters are filled. I let my clients know about filled gutters and I can clean them if they want too.When I bought my house there were no gutters. The soil is very organic. I call it four feet of garden soil. The first summer after I moved in the basement was beginning to smell and I realized that I had mildew going. I bought a dehumidifier and the thing ran a lot the first summer. That fall, I put on a new roof and gutters with longdown spouts.s. Since then, the dehumidifier rarely runs. I do have to get up on a ladder to clean the gutters once a year but that, for me, is routine.Tom
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WE are working on an older home in central Vermont and it has a field stone foundation. My question - would it be disastrous to pour a concrete foundation on the outside from the base of the stacked field stone to ground level and then one on the inside as well. The stones on top (above grade), that can be seen, are massive and are cut granite (really nice). The object is to prevent water from seeping in and strengthen the stacked stone foundation as well. I am worried that digging the necessary deep trench on the outside to pour the new support foundation might cause some instability and the stacked field foundation would either bulge or collapse before the concrete is poured.
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Mike. Current gutter practice: inadequate width and depth, indirect downspouts: downspouts are rarely if ever immediately below a valley, splash plates,if provided, are too close to the house and so on. Given these conditions it's no wonder they cause water problems.
Next time you are at your wholesalers, ask hime for the name of the manufacturer==phone number too--of the screening. Thank you for your offer. Ignore my recent e-mail to you. GemeL.
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Woodrow I don't make my living building/fixing/repairing/demolishing houses. I can only give you my limited experience. I had an old house (ca 1870s) in western Mass with a field stone foundation. I had the house well suppported inside and was starting to dig a test hole outside when a previous owner just happened to drive by; it was his grandfather had the house built. I was told the foundation was about a foot wide at ground level but about six feet wide at the bottom. I quit right then and there. We just learned never to put anything valuable on the cellar floor. Good Luck!
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Gene .. i didn't get the mfr. but here's the skinny from their catalog..
bronze screen 18x14 mesh, 0.011 wire diameter..
90 % copper, 10% zinc
if i find anything more i'll let u no..
mike
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b Dispense With Rain Gutters?
I'm about to finish a new two story house in the country.
The owner says he knows a friend, a general contractor in Virginia, who no longer installs rain gutters.
Instead, this contractor digs a trench about 18" wide directly under the roof edge, completely around the perimeter of the house. The trench is abut 18" deep too, I think he said. And the trench is filled up with "chat" or small limestone, or small rocks of any kind which don't dissolve in rainwater.
He says this does away with leaves and pine needles filling up the gutters. Says it eliminates a little fire hazard since there aren't any gutters to collect leaves, etc. Gutters don't get blocked up since there ain't any. Gutters don't wear out since there aren't any.
Now of course, my owner wants me to install this system.
I confess I've never seen this system in operation.
Does anyone out there have experience with it? I'd appreciate your comments and advice.
What are the drawbacks to such a system?
If I'm gonna do it I want to do it before the power is hooked up to the house; don't want one of my guys electrocuted digging around the base of the house or screwing up any of the cables coming in.
It does sound kinda nice in that no gutters would improve the appearance of the roofline, in my opinion. But if this were such a proven thing, I would expect to have seen it all around the country and I haven't. Or maybe it's out there and I just haven't noticed it.
Thaks for any guidance
William
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There is a company in Bridgeport, Ct. named Savetime, Corp. [1-800-606-2028] that distributes a product called "RAINHANDLER". The product looks like a set of 7 louvres that turn the roof water runoff into a spray. The panels look to be about 3"x60".