Short story: water is coming down through the woods onto the driveway and freezing. Obvious problems with a sloped driveway and freezing water.
View ImageComplication: not all my property! The source of the water is on my evil neighbor’s property. He’s not provided for drainage for water coming down the mountain. His only solution has been to throw salt/cinders down, which then get on my car, clog up the drain lower on the driveway, etc. And we don’t speak, so there’s no possibility of a cooperative solution. The area above the yellow arrows is his; the area below is mine. When I say “mine” I mean we both drive on it, but I had it poured, so I’ll maintain it as necessary. My goal is to keep the water from running onto the portion of the driveway that I use, which is the lower portion only. I can think of two possibilities. First, I could grind a channel at the joint where the yellow arrows are. That could be enough to run the water to the far side of the drive (left) where it can filter down to an existing drain. Second, I can grind a series of grooves about where the other yellow lines are. If grooves, how deep into a 4″-5″ slab is safe? How deep is useful? How wide? Any better ideas? Thanks!
Edited 12/30/2004 1:53 pm ET by Cloud Hidden
Replies
Cut out a small portion of the drive, install a catch basin on the high side with a drain running under the drive, patch it up.
I know it ain't that simple.
Sue him.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
wow ...
I'm starting to wonder what you'd do if you lived in a city ...
with lotsa neighbors and lots cops and firemen with bigger problems than a coupla flowers or a little bit of ice on the road.
Every day I drive steep windy city streets ... city maintained ... since I take the back streets ... I drive streets that don't get maintained ... like my very own front street.
I have an ice patch that I slide sideways on daily ... twice as steep and truned twice as sharp as that in the pic ...
ya know what I do ....
I slow down ... then slide slowly ... slide a little more in the van ...
a little less in the Jeep ....
but I slide ....
every day.
Not once has it occured to me who's property the water comes from ...
btw ... once they swale it ... it's yours! Hard to prove all the rain that day fell on their side or only their snow melted ....
U live on a mountain in a place where it snows ... I'd say get better tires and learn how to drive?
Me ... somedays when I need a little extra "wake me up" I nail the gas and throw the a$$ end around .... the kid loves it!
so do I ....
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
You're just can't stop yourself from being so freakin' helpful, huh? Ever think this isn't about me? I grew up learning to drive on snow and ice. I'll do the slip and slide all day and not give it a second thought. But I gotta think about a wife, and the UPS guy who doesn't wanna hit a patch of ice at the top of the drive, and in laws from FL, and visitors who aren't as freakin' talented as you. If I get rid of the water, I manage to avoid problems for a lot of people, I get the salt and cinders out of my drain, and I get to piss off the evil neighbor. So either be useful or bite me.
I suspect that groves or channels will just freeze up and then it will over flow.A catch basin at the "head" or a channel drain across the drive is what is probably needed.
Agreed that a catch basin is needed and would completely solve problem. Alas, that's beyond my control.Maybe grooves aren't the answer. Dunno. We're almost never below freezing during the day, and it's a south exposure with all day sun, so I'm wondering if maybe the water won't flow along a channel during the day and thus not be present at night to freeze. And if it'd freeze there, it'd also freeze up on their portion of the drive, or in the woods, which is not my concern. If it's running, I want it to run other than right over where we stop and back into our garage.
Well if it is warm enough often enough maybe the groves will work for you.
Cloud:
Any chance of doing the project when your neighbor's out of town?
He might get pissed off, but what is he going to do after you've done the work? If he threatens to sue you, threaten back. That should probably be the end of it, wouldn't you think?
------------------------
Well, after thinking about it, that's probably not a good idea! But I'm having a hard time figuring out why your neighbor would oppose some solution to keep the water and ice off the road. If you pay for it and do the work, he'll benefit, so why would he complain?
Legally, if you have an easement, don't you have a right to have the road "maintained" provided that you are paying for such maintenance? (I'm not a lawyer, and I'm trying to apply common sense, so I'm sure I'm leading us down a blind alley). Maybe it would help to ask such legal questions. Then you can figure out what your options are.
If you absolutely have to keep any modifications to your property, what about cutting a trench drain into the road?
Edited 12/30/2004 5:12 pm ET by ragnar
You seem to be a pretty good guy, here is your moment to be naughty. On your side of the yellow arrows, have a big humping speed bump put in. It will slow down traffic, and divert the water above your drive.
Also, it will probably legally do a good job of pissing off the neighbor.
How did your kitchen dancing pole come out?
-zen
oooh.. oooh... jim...
i REALLY like zendo's idea
thank-you-mamns........
seriously..
on gravel drives that's how you get the water off.. with diagonally pitched thank-you -mamns sculpted out of gravel.. repeated often enoug to divert the water before it can gain volume & velocityMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Install a culvert? Are those expansion seams in the roadway, or are there some cracks (the diagonal one) due to settling? Maybe the groundwater seepage is undermining the access road... Perhaps a culvert would benefit both parties.
BTW, why is it that you and the neighbour are not on speaking terms?
There already is a culvert on the downhill side. Really should be one on the uphill side, but that's not my property. If I mention it, neighbor won't do it. As to why...too long a story, plus he's not here to tell his side, as inaccurate and dishonest as it would undoubtedly be. <G>
Option # 1 = Move
If grooves, how deep into a 4"-5" slab is safe? How deep is useful? How wide?
For HC ramps, we spec 1/4" by 1/4" at 4" O.C. Since you are closer to ice & snow, your best bet would likely be a dual 45º saw cut, to leave not square edge to snap under a tire, or by ice. I'd make a "Y" cut, the first cut would be vertical, no more than 3/4" deep. Then make two, oh, call it 3/8" deep 45º cuts on either side. Space them, oh, 9" or 12" apart. The tires will "sing"/"chatter" over the grooves in almost any dimension--6" might be a tad narrow; 12" is startig to be too wide. Six or a ha'dozen . . .
Now, that's belt and suspenders. By groving the pavement, it could be said that you are "weakening" the jointly-owned concrete. The vertical relief cut controls the effect of any weakness, while also permitting a bit more water volume to cross.
What Firebird said. I think that any grooves you put into the driveway will just fill up and freeze before the water runs off. Your best bet is to handle it above the driveway and divert. Anyway, if any water freezes in the grooves, it will probably just break up the concrete.
I had a neighbor I didn't talk to years ago in Florida. The day I moved in, they had their car parked on my lawn. I asked them to move it. In addition, the realtor had told them their fence was 18" over the property line, so they had moved it just before closing. I was unaware of all this it went downhill from there. We never spoke to each other once after that in 5 1/2 years. I built a block wall to separate us (on my side of the property line) and they found about four pieces of mortar on their side of the wall for a total of about three ounces which they placed on top of the wall that night so I would find them. God I was glad to get out of that place!
pay a homeless guy to blow a hair dryer over it on cold nights?
This may seem crazy .... but we buy salt and salt the alley so my wife can park her car on the slope that always freezes ... even though it's in the city and it's their job to salt it ...
so .... build a salt box and keep a shovel in it?
what would our forefathers do .....
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
big freakin speed bump on your side of property line!slow the neighbor down ,plus gives you time to wave at each other! no middle finger waving allowed. reall y, what about a 3" high speed bump if it works great if not you could go out and bust it off, plus if the neighbor don't like it he may come knocking at your door wanting to solve the problem. grooves would work fine as long as it frezes then thaws, if not they would fill up after a few days and be smooth.any chance you could dig a pretty good size hole on your side and fill with big rock and catch some of it that way?another idea move here to kansas,we don't have that much elavation in 100 miles :) larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Edited 12/30/2004 6:53 pm ET by always overbudget
When I first read the post, my immediate thought was a speed bump/water bar to divert water off. But the best place for it appears to be on the neighbour's property, so it's tricky. And the same would go for cutting grooves.
Best way to make effective bump would be to cut and remove a strip across the drive, then new concrete trowelled into the desired shape. Not easy in this weather, and pretty disruptive, not to mention confrontational. Ditto for rock drains, culverts etc, plus add expense.
So... we come back to cutting a series of grooves. I've cut 'control joints' to drain out small low spots in patio slabs before, and it works like a charm. Cut the full length of the groove about 1/2" deep, then re-cut out toward the runoff side, getting progressively deeper so as to slope the bottom of the cut. Looks like this won't be needed if that drive has as much slope as it appears to have in the photo. Given how much water I've seen flow away through my patio 'control joints', I'd say 8-10 cuts about 1" deep and spaced 4-6" apart would do quite nicely. A walk-behind concrete saw is inexpensive to rent and you could easily pull off the entire job in around 3 hours.
Now of course we are back to the problem of carrying out work on your neighbour's property. He may object, claiming his efforts at dealing with the ice are sufficient. You could then politely point out that you'd do the work, it would be non-intrusive, and would provide a better solution for his family as well as yours. If further objections are raised, it could be pointed out to neighbour that he can be held legally responsible for controlling water leaving his property and any consequences thereof.
Have fun,
Wally
If further objections are raised, it could be pointed out to neighbour that he can be held legally responsible for controlling water leaving his property and any consequences thereof.
That's what I'm talking about! I wouldn't start off with the legal crap, but find out what you can hold over his head and know it well before you start down the path.
asphalt one would be quick and dirty. Heck with trowel work, call in a favor or pay for the fun. Have them come at night or during time the guy works. How cool would that be.
Paint it yellow. lol
What a conundrum!
You say you had it poured? It l;ooks oto be poured all the way up on his property too. Taht makes me wonder, if you poured crete on his property, why can't you install a drainage on his property?
from what I see, and knowing you have a freezing climate, I don't think the groves are a good idea. You need to handle the water before it gets on the surface in the start. That means a ditch on the uphill side, filled with garvel and a perforated culvert to catch and direct the water. if you can do this while he is out of town...
The only other thing that might help is speed bump diverters on the surface and I like the idea that they give you bargaining power for the right solution. They might not last long if he has to plow anyways.
BTW, I thought there was a sale3s contract on that place. Fall through?
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
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These are the new owners, Paul. The prior owner poured the upper part and didn't install a culvert. I wasn't paying attention to what he did or didn't do on his property. Also, it was a drought and water wasn't a problem. Now it is and it needs to be dealt with.
Since you have a new neighbor, it's a great time for a new relationship based on co-operation
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
paul... jim's neighbor has a deed restriction that runs with the property..
the property cannot be sold unless the current owner can certify that the prospective buyer is twice the jerk the current one is..
so far.... they're keeping their end of the bargain...
or.. to put it another way.. the devil you know is better than the one who'll replace him..
no joy in mudvilleMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
LOL Sorry Cloud
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
New relationship went out the window when he dug up the plants that he knew Meili and I had planted. And when he claimed the stone mailbox that I paid to build as all his own.Prev guy was a dream by comparison, be/c he was absentee.Better the devil you know...
Sounds like a good time for a property line survey.
Sounds like time for speed bumps!
Fill me in on the part where you BOTH use the driveway.
Seems to me that a speed bump of only 1/2 inch would do the trick as far as restricting the area that the water covers on your side but won't do much for the other part.
Grooves would just fill in or freeze up.
You could run a scarifier along the upper edge of the driveway and then one run across the driveway at the lowest point possible.
Gabe
Connect the two yellow arrows. That's the boundary. We both drive below that (left on the picture). Only they drive above.
What do you think of scarifying off about 1/2 inch deep by 16" wide along the high side and then run the scarifier across to the drain side?
Gabe
I have seen traffic rated drive-over troughs use in similar situations. It looks to me like your not dealing with a whole lot of water there. This could mean that the thinnest and shallowest of these troughs might do the job.
See:
http://www.riverside-steel.com/TrenchDrainsGrates.HTM
They show 6" as being the thinnest available but I think I have seen thinner. You might be able to cut down the plastic trench box to make the unit shallower and less likely to compromise the slab. Maybe.
Cloud,
In your shoes, I would start with 6 grooves, 1/4" deep, cut with a thick blade, about 4" apart.
Align the first groove on the property line.
If, after a time, I decided 6 weren't enough, I cut a few more.
Cheap easy, effective, and can be extended as needed. 1/2 day rental on a walk behind. A couple a three blades with your worm drive, plus a good bit ofwear and tear. A couple o' hunert dollars fer sommun else to do it wit dere toys.
Any ice spalling (doubtful) will not hurt the effectiveness of the fix and will be so minor that the overall esthetics wont be effected.
SamT
If your neighbor is putting salt on the concrete than you have another problem, salt destroys concrete better than anything. The white pellet nitrogen type lawn fertilizer works good without damage.
You seem like a nice person, but, and pardon me for saying this, a lot of your problems are the result of your relationship with your neighbor. There is a lesson for all of us here.
I do worry about salt on concrete. Also on the cars. Gotta figure out what he's using...I think I'd be a fine neighbor. You wouldn't hear us, and you'd only see us a few times a year coming and going. Don't throw parties or store junk outside. Why someone would move in from FL and dig out plants they knew I had planted, and proclaim ownership of a retaining wall/mailbox they knew I built with prior owner, I can't fathom. So now I'm left with determining a response, be/c talking didn't stop them from killing my stuff. I think that tomorrow I'll speak with the lawyer who wrote the language in the deed to see his intent, and what I can legally do re speed bumps, scarifying, etc.
Well, at least one problem might be solving itself while another is escalating. The evil one's landscaper is out on the drive right now with a concrete saw. Don't yet know whether he's doing grooves or a channel or whatever, but he's doing it up on his own concrete, so I don't care as long as it's effective. Guess he realized that he'd always have an icing problem if he didn't do something.Later I'll check out what's being done and report on it's effectiveness.The problem that's escalating is that they're starting to mortar the rocks they've placed down by the common entrance. And they're mortaring it to the driveway, which is effectively narrowing the driveway that even they acknowledge I share. My lawyer was furious. What he'll do to get it to revert back, I don't yet know. We'll see how that soap opera evolves in the coming days.
Hey Cloud, What did the neighbor do with the concrete saw? Let us know.
You know, you're just too nice of a guy. I'd think I would like you as a neighbor, for a couple reasons.
Anyways, go cut about a two foot section out of your drive right up at the property line. Install one of those continuous drains, then pour a nice curb and blend it back to your elevation.
Problem solved. You'll never have to drive over it.
Get permits, send him a notice the drive will be inaccesible for a few days and go at it.
On a side note, we were in NC a couple months ago. Not Asheville though or I would have looked you up.
J.
Speaking of too nice, the pricks called the cops on me today! And yesterday, it turns out. And last week. And last month!!!!! Today's the day the cop reached me at the house. Said they had repeated complaints about destruction of property, vandalism, and theft of property! Guess what they said was stolen? Rocks! No, I'm not kidding. They said I was stealing and vandalizing rocks they put down at the driveway entrance. Now it just so happens that my atty had me take pictures of the entrance, and as far as I can tell, the same rocks are still there.Cop said he figured there was a second side of the story, and realized this was civil rather than criminal...you can't vandalize your own property, ya know. And he was getting bothered by their repeated calls about vandalizing rocks (ROCKS!!!) with not only no proof, but not even any evidence of damage. Even the past neighbor never called the cops on me. ROCKS!?!?! Isn't that the most ludicrous?!?!So the cop and I chat for a half hour or so and realize we have some common acquaintances. For example, a sheriff's deputy is a good friend. Another friend is a Sgt with the state police and the bodyguard of the Gov's wife at times, and it just so happens that yesterday this local cop was the training officer for my friend's son. So we hit it off just fine. He said I can do whatever I want as long as I don't kill the evil one. <G>Hard to see any way this won't become a lawsuit.As to what they did on the upper part of the drive, I think they cut all the way through the slab about 4" apart and set a full-length drain in concrete. The water drains into a culvert on the low side. It's the proper thing to have done and should solve the problem. The problem existed all on their property and so did the solution...as it should have been.
Does their property not have street access? Is that why they use your driveway to get to theirs?
He's a weenie. I'd still put in a speed bump. Just for fun. It will give him something to think about. Every day. Maybe twice a day.
Gymnastics going well?
J.
Our driveway is a shared one that cuts across his property. The developer--the prior owner--couldn't get a driveway to reach the home site on our property (this was before we bought the lot) and so wrote the deed to cover the shared drive.Things at the gym are great. Meets start next weekend and run till end of April. I won't go into all the skills she's acquired be/c it's too much like bragging, but she astonishes me more each day. Some of the things seem to defy gravity. We'll see how the season goes.How's all with you and yours?
Brag away. Meile is on an optional track of some sort if I remember correctly?
Mine are doing well, levels 5 and 6 now. In about the middle of our competition season. Both have qualified for state so some pressure is off of them.
J.
Cloud ...
post a reply here ...
doing a test.
Thanx.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Just tell the officer that you are happy to return the rocks. First you build a catapult...
Seriously, this guy is terrible and trouble. At least he himself has notified the cops that he is off the wall (stealing rocks in NC???) I once lived next to guy who knocked down our fence, shot my girlfriend's cat, threatened to shoot us, but the cops laughed at my complaints because they were friends with him. After I moved I heard they hauled him away for beating his wife. When I was fixing the downed fence he snuck up behind the fence and grabbed my arm and tried to pull me into his yard so he could beat me up and claim I was trespassing. I had an Estwing in my free hand and I pulled back to take a swing at his head but instead decided to clobber his hand. If I had hit his head in that split second I might have ended up in jail for homicide. I feel for you, man. Let you lawyer handle it but be careful around your neighbor.
Billy
Your story is a good lesson. Wow, close call.This guy's a 60-something retired executive type. I'm guessing he's used to running everything and expected to move in and run things here. There's a bunch of retired execs here with the same approach to retirement.It's getting a little creepy. The cop told me that they told him they were trying to get pictures of me supposedly doing stuff. They'd watch when I went down the driveway and rush for the camera. Of course, they have no pictures be/c all I do is get the mail, retrieve the trash can, and go for my daughter. I noticed a sensor along the driveway about a week ago. They're likely using it as an alarm for our comings and goings, which is creepy. When we go to court, I'm gonna ask the mediator to make them move it up to their exclusive property, be/c tracking me and my guests is, again, creepy.Till then, I'm not above a little mischief. If I find out the type of sensor, I'd bet someone here could tell me how to create a device that would trigger it at all hours of the day and night. Whatcha think? That would be FUN! :)I agree that it's good that the police are learning he's a nut.
If I find out the type of sensor, I'd bet someone here could tell me how to create a device that would trigger it at all hours of the day and night. Whatcha think? That would be FUN! :)
Just gently set one of "his rocks" on it ... no property damage ... no stealing ...
just moved a rock is all ...
then ... laugh each time ya drive by it.
it's the little things in life ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
That's more than creepy, I'd say that's an invasion of your privacy.
I'd tear it out in a second. I can't stand people like that. He is so baiting you to do something wrong though.
Jerk!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
>He is so baiting you to do something wrong though.Absolutely, Eric! So far, I'm playing the innocent, aggrieved one effectively, I think. And he's playing the nut. Should be fun in front of a judge/mediator. Whatcha think the odds are I could bait him into losing his temper? Get his big head all red?If I did something in anger and got caught, I'd lose that cache and credibility. Today it served me well.DW and I are having fun with it. Her idea is to paint smiley faces on the undersides of some rocks and see how long it takes them to find 'em. Of course, now if mitch (being local) comes over and does that when I'm not looking, he could get me in a little trouble, huh?
Paint your portion of the driveway red. Put some tacky lights in the area. Set out an old appliance. Make the entrance something he can be proud of.Les Barrett Quality Construction
And he's playing the nut. Should be fun in front of a judge/mediator. Whatcha think the odds are I could bait him into losing his temper? Get his big head all red?
If I did something in anger and got caught, I'd lose that cache and credibility. Today it served me well.
Been there.........it's usually not hard to create an explosion at that point, and all the detris will fall on his sorry azz.
If I did something in anger and got caught, I'd lose that cache and credibility. Today it served me well.
You right, and that's something I've at least learned to remind myself. Work through the proper channels, always.
Good luck,
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Be cool, clench your teeth, be good for now. You want to look like the good guy for now. If he's a retired exec he's less likely to do something violent, but he knows what he's doing to some extent (but his rock arguments indicate that he doesn't totally know what he's doing). He is trying to run you off or irritate you to the point where you'll do something stupid. Your lawyer should be able to come up with some good ideas. If not, get another lawyer. Court order, injunction, etc. Document everything and take notes. (He is trying to document your comings & goings & activities -- ask your lawyer why? What is his strategy?) Your lawyer may want to send him a letter or series of letters (or write ones for you to send) in which you document his unreasonable behavior and kindly offer to meet and discuss things so that if thing gets real messy then you will have a paper trail to hand to a judge rather than a he said/she said situation. The letters will also make you look reasonable. Be careful what you say to others who you don't know well. If he is impatient then he may make the big mistake that puts you in the driver's seat.
I know it's easier said than done. Don't let him see you building the catapult...
Billy
Sounds like something a few good iraqi insurgents could handle.Armor all his driveway and get ready with a camera for when he starts down it.
If u do speed bumbs put them at an angle so only one wheel hits them at a time.I have a 3/4 mile drive and use only speed bumps because culverts are so prone to clog with just one stupid stick catching in them crosswise.They calll them "thank u mams" here in WV cuz when u go over them u tend to nod ur head.
tree... i think they call them thank -you-mams because the long name is ..
slam - bamm, thank-you -mam..
an it ain't got nothin to do with nodding your headMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Nah...In NC they are "braless boob bouncers" followed by thank you maam. LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I'll just do it>
The sensor -
rig a pendulum as a windchime or other sort of decoration so it will go off regularly.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Driveway sensor...
Taking photos of you and your family coming and going...
What is the definition of 'stalking' in your state?Formerly just 'Don' but not the 'Glassmaster Don' or the lower-case 'don'.
next time go to the district attorney, or the states attorney general.
That they ignored you is bull. Go right over them.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Sounds like it was a good thing you didn't SUGGEST doing that in the first place to them, or they probably would have rebelled and done nothing or made it worse.I don't suppose there is any way they might be acting out of ignorance, based on things they might have been told by the previous owner????False thigs about you and the property?????
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Doubt it. Trashing the neighbors is not the best way to a sale. Besides, the old guy had moved on to hassling other people...women this time. I was old news. Beyond that, no need to say false things to make him dislike me...the truth woulda sufficed! r r r
You make a good point. Maybe Cloud could get his lawyer to contact the other person's lawyer and arrange a meeting to find out what the problem is. Perhaps the previous owner planted some seeds with the new guy to get even with Cloud. Les Barrett Quality Construction
Has the water running on to you been diverted on to you in anyway? Riparian Rights are some of the oldest and most definded laws on the books. If the neighbor in anyway diverted water onto you, it will be a relatively easy matter to force him to give you relief.
Alternate solution. If you can wait, when we come for our annual ride there next year, we'll "speak" to the neighbor. Just kidding, maybe.