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DIY Excavation

csmart01 | Posted in Construction Techniques on July 31, 2002 05:41am

I want to dig out a patio (prep for Unilock in CT) and was wondering how hard is it to use a small backhoe. I have to dig out about 500 sq-ft. By the time I get proficient will I have spent 3 days and $x in rental fees and probably hit the side of my house and should have contracted it out? The problem I’m having contracting it out is nobody wants such a small job. Thanks.

 

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  1. FastEddie1 | Jul 31, 2002 06:02am | #1

    Have you seen the article in the curreent issue about using a bobcat?  You might get some inspiration there.

  2. Piffin | Jul 31, 2002 06:29am | #2

    You don't dig square feet.

    You excavate cubic feet.

    Whether your fears are realized will depend on whther you identify with Tim Allen or with his sidekick Big Al

    Excellence is its own reward!
    1. User avater
      BossHog | Jul 31, 2002 02:44pm | #3

      Tim Taylor is my hero.

      But on a job that small, I'd still probably dig it by hand.

      "Creativity is great, but plagiarism is faster."

      1. brownbagg | Jul 31, 2002 04:17pm | #4

        rent the hoe on the weekend, Find you an operater thhat work for side money, slip him $100 and it will be dug in about two hours. It amazing what people do for cash

      2. BJC | Jul 31, 2002 04:24pm | #5

        How deep were you planning on digging? 

        To answer your question though, something like a Cat mini excavator isn't too hard to get the hang of if you have good hand-eye coordination.  But, you will hit the side of your house and rip up much more grass than you were planning to! 

        Good luck!

        Brian

  3. User avater
    CloudHidden | Jul 31, 2002 04:33pm | #6

    Check for utilities first! And watch the side-to-side swing on the bucket. That's the one that's touchy for most first-timers. On the one side you'll smack your wife and on the other you'll hit the house. Seriously, I like the idea of slipping cash to an experienced operator. If you do choose to do it, make sure there are no utilities there, and don't let anyone stand anywhere near the bucket. It is so easy to have that thing swing to the side and wipe out what was standing there. But they are a blast to use if you have a way to do it safely, so if you do hire an operator under the table, have him or her at least show you the controls and mess with it for a few minutes.

    1. csmart01 | Jul 31, 2002 05:48pm | #7

      Great input, thanks everyone... except "piffin" (do you just roam the forum sharing your LOL humor? I peed my pants over your clever personal information)

      I am totally frightened of slamming my house with the bucket. I plan on going down 24"... too little for New England winters? I also had thoughts of a tiller, a few friends with shovles and beer. Any best guess on excavating 1,000 ft^3 by hand with a few guys?

      I do like the idea of renting a machine and finding a hired gun to work it under the table for cash. My real want is to just hire it out but nobody wants to be bothered. Landscape guys want the whole job and are quoting 12-16 $/ft^2 for unilock.

      Charlie

      http://www.home-addition.com

      1. User avater
        BossHog | Jul 31, 2002 06:28pm | #8

        I'd still go for digging it by hand, but........

        If you end up renting a backhoe and doing it yourself - Try setting the backhoe perpendicular with the house, and reach in towards it with the bucket. That way swinging left and right won't allow you to hit the house.

        Do as much of it as possible that way. Stay away from the house a couple of feet, and finish the last bit by hand.

        You never really learn to swear until you learn to drive.

      2. JohnSprung | Jul 31, 2002 08:35pm | #12

        OK, 500 square feet by 2 ft. deep is about 37 cubic yards.  If it's fairly easy to dig, you can do that much by hand and move it maybe 100 feet in a wheelbarrow in two weekends.  But that's two weekends of very serious exercise.  If the ground is hard, you'll need a big Bosch hammer or some other machine to break it up.  In that case, I'd probably go for one of those mini-bobcat type things and let the machine do it all.

        A friend of mine used to have a backhoe (lost it in a fire).  He was out in the boonies, and had 28 acres to practice on, so he got really good at it.  Do you have room someplace to drive a few stakes in the ground and practice? 

        -- J.S.

      3. Piffin | Aug 01, 2002 03:22am | #15

        Nice house, when can I move in?

        Sorry to cause the need for diapers. I didn't mean it really!

        I tend to hide a lot of revelant information in my wisecracks though. The comment about not digging square feet, only cubic refered to mny thoughts that if it's a little bit, you should dig by hand but if going deep, ...well you've already got some decent advice there. I'd try to find an operator nearby to bring the machine over for cash on saturday. and my miostaken comment about Tim Taylor and AL said that I have no possible way of knowing what skill level you are to recommend that you rent a tool like that. But by focusing on the joke and the statement therein, you can answer it for yourself.

        But then my wife says that I'm too deep to be allowed out around normal people too. She mutters something about me being dangerous...

        ;>)Excellence is its own reward!

        1. bearmon | Aug 01, 2002 05:28am | #16

          A 2' hole for pavers?  Do you plan to use that much base, or do you want the finish grade of the pavers a lot lower than the current existing grade?

          For driveways, I'll dig about 14" down from final finish grade, resulting in about 12" of base.  Patios and walkways get 5-6" of base.

          I'm in a Northern climate with lots of snow and freeze/thaw cycles.

          As for the dig, I have a TLB (tractor/loader/backhoe) that works great, but skid steers are often used for this.  Sometimes I'll do a little tractor work on the weekend while the crew is off.

          Bear

          Edited 7/31/2002 10:33:48 PM ET by BEARMON

          1. JAlden | Aug 01, 2002 06:06am | #17

            As usual "The Boss" is right. Dig it by hand or hire a landspaping crew. You would be amazed how much dirt they can move. Neighbors love free black dirt also.

            J.

          2. csmart01 | Aug 01, 2002 03:38pm | #18

            5-6" down? Sh1t... I'm all over that. I just assumed due to the winter thing we got going on up here the 24" would be a safe bet. Thanks to everyone for the input, I'll send photos when I'm done... and the x-rays of my back (I think I'm going the manual route)

            As an aside... anyine have any photos/input on an outdoor firepit?

          3. JAlden | Aug 02, 2002 05:40am | #20

            wood or gas?

          4. csmart01 | Dec 21, 2002 11:54pm | #23

            As promised (not that anyone was waiting with breath held)

            http://www.home-addition.com/patio.htm

            After all this discussion... I hired the whole thing out. Oh well, I guess we pick and choose our battles.

          5. rez | Dec 22, 2002 12:22am | #24

            Great stuff! Glad you posted....sitting in his nowhereland.

             

             

          6. User avater
            Qtrmeg | Dec 22, 2002 05:33pm | #27

            Of course it looks nice, but, why is your house sitting in the dirt?

            I'm not trying to pick on you, that is just not one of the best plans.

          7. csmart01 | Dec 22, 2002 07:34pm | #28

            Qtrmeg: I don't follow about the house sitting in the dirt. What do you mean?

          8. User avater
            Qtrmeg | Dec 22, 2002 08:41pm | #29

            Looks like you have a raised bed to the left, against the wall of the house. Sill to dirt height is something I worry about, but if I was of a mind I could get rich repairing the damage that is inevitable from less than optimal situations.

            Yours is far from the worst I have seen, I had had to literally dig dirt away from siding, but it is one of the things I go nuts about. Think about it. Wood on grade is not where you want to be.

            I Do like your project, I look forward to seeing it progress.

          9. csmart01 | Dec 23, 2002 12:20am | #30

            Now I understand. THe dirt is a little loose right now since they back filled with top soil for plantings but still is a couple inches away. The way I see it is if it's not touching it's OK and it's only going to settle more since right now it's loose topsoil they dropped in for plantings. THis picture I have attached shows how it looks. To be honest, they are building all these McMansions around my area where the builders seem to think having 6ft of exposed foundation is attractive. Not me. THe other potrions of my house are 30 years old with this same exact exposure and there is not a sign of rot. All the siding is cedar (both old and new) and the way I see it... 1 inch or 6 feet... if it's no actually touching it's fine (and history on the older portions has shown this to be true)

            Thanks for the kind words.

            C

          10. User avater
            Qtrmeg | Dec 23, 2002 12:48am | #31

            Ground grows, you can't help it. I am happy so far you have had no problems, but that one spot has roof drainage to deal with.

            I guess this is another case where it would be helpful to include where you live in your profile, that would never fly where I am.

            I'll attach the only thing I have on this comp showing a foundation. Not 6 feet, but close. I hear you about ugly foundations, I have been toying around with granite foundation caps or skins. Frenchy did something like that, I forget how he did it, I remember it seemed like a lot of trouble.

            I'm glad you didn't go off like I was picking on you, if I didn't care I wouldn't have said a word. Btw, 40 years old is nothing, maybe that is where I went wrong.

          11. csmart01 | Dec 23, 2002 03:19pm | #33

            Located in CT and all my gutter runoff goes into pipes and comes out down at the edge of my property into a storm drain. I also have incredibly sandy (well draining) soil. What you show isn't as bad as what I've seen springing up around me but I still like the look of less concrete. I also have seen some stone facings being used which look great but I'm not sure about the cost.

          12. junkhound | Dec 23, 2002 04:20am | #32

            "I hired the whole thing out"

            Wootz!!<G>

  4. TKanzler | Jul 31, 2002 06:34pm | #9

    For 500 sf (22' x 22') at whatever shallow depth you need for pavers, I'd consider using a rototiller to break up the ground, and excavate by hand.  There just isn't enough material to remove to make it worth renting a hoe.  To be time effective with the machine, you'd have to pile the spoil and remove it by hand anyway, plus repair the lawn, and the siding, and maybe the wall framing and sheetrock if you smack it hard enough.

     

    Be seeing you...

  5. JohnCA07 | Jul 31, 2002 06:34pm | #10

    I just finished digging out a large portion of my basement with a very cool piece of equipment. Its called a Prodigy and comes will all sorts of attachments. The neatest thing about it is its size. My basement is only 6' tall so I needed a loader that could fit into a short overhead as well as pass through a 42" doorway.

    The thing worked great, I cannot tell you how many weeks of shoveling this unit has saved me.  I rented it from Home Depot and I'm not sure if all of the Home Depots carry them. I have two Home Depots approximately 8 miles apart and found that one carries two rental units and the other none. I also found that many of the larger rental yards haven't even heard of the Prodigy.

    I used the loader (30" wide bucket), tiller, trencher and auger on the unit and all performed excellent.
    Note: The Auger needs some additional weight to really get it digging (one human will do)

    Let me know if you would like more details on the unit and I'll try to point you in he right direction.

    -John

    1. User avater
      BillHartmann | Jul 31, 2002 07:35pm | #11

      Here is what John was talking about. It is the 4 wheel, red machine with the guy standing on the back of it.

      http://www.powerhouseequipment.com/

      However, it appears that they only sell it in the south so I am not sure where it is available.

      Toro has a similar one.

      http://www.toro.com/professional/sws/loader/

      I think that those would be much better for you application if you can find one to rent. I don't know how close you can get to your work site, but you can use these to also carry in the agragate and the pavers.

      I think that one of these or a regular steer skid loader (Bobcat) would be better for your application.

      I rented a min-track excevator last fall for puttin in some drain line. All the others where 100% correct. They are basically easy to operate and can be very accurate in their digging. I dug down right behind a stone wall and worked between two in ground sewer pumps.

      *BUT*, the swing is a hard to control.

      But I don't think that the back hoe is really what you want for this job. They are more for tenching.

      I think that a loader would be better.

      And round my area I am see all kinds of people with bobcats that do "small jobs". Just start knocking on doors where you see a bobcat in the drive.

      1. BKCBUILDER | Jul 31, 2002 11:42pm | #13

         All this talk of shovels and hand work is making my back hurt. Shovels are for leaning on when the machine is digging. I have a Bobcat 773, I don't think it is the right machine for this job though. I would rent the Bobcat 322, or 331 excavator, They are easy and fun, and great for getting in tight spots.

  6. User avater
    Mongo | Aug 01, 2002 02:14am | #14

    Charlie,

    Cal the local Rent-All places and see if they have something, or something equivalent to, a "Dig-It." It's a fairly small machine with a front-end bucket and a smallish backhoe bucket on the rear. Easy to get the hang of, and with a limited reach (compared to larger machines) it's unlikely you'll tear your house down.

    24" deep? All you need to do is get rid of the organics and get down to the subsoil. Then set the pitch so the rough base slopes away from the house.

    Use the backhoe to break up the soil, use the bucket to collect and move it somewhere else.

    If you're going to use stonedust for a base layer, get that delivered beforehand. Then, after getting down to subsoil and prepping the rough base, you can use the Dig-It's bucket to place the stonedust. Save you a heckuva lot of wheelbarrowing.

    Should be do-able with a day's rental. I'm in south-central CT and they go for about $125 a day here.

  7. JaySpencer66 | Aug 01, 2002 08:16pm | #19

    One thing that I have not noticed, and that could just be my own personal obviousness, is what are you making the deck out of? I presume stone or concrete, and by the fact that you are thinking of grading down to 24" perhaps on a slope?

    Here are my thoughts:

    If you can, pay the money for the pro's on something like this. In the long run it is worth it, as they have no learning curve, and the damage tends to be minimal. One good crack to the side of you house could cost you 2-3 times what you would save. Don't think of it as spending money, rather paying insurance.

    What are you doing about grading, is this on a slope?

    God is in the details!

    Jay

    1. csmart01 | Aug 02, 2002 09:18pm | #22

      Unilock patio. Wood firepit.

  8. PhillGiles | Aug 02, 2002 08:47am | #21

    Too bad you can't find someone with a Gradall to do this (I assume there's access ?), have it done in 30 minutes. In any case, a tractor-mounted backhoe (like a Case Construction King) maybe, but with one of those mini-diggers, you'll be at it for days. Best advice has already been given a couple of times: rent a skid-loader for an afternoon.

    .

    Phill Giles

    The Unionville Woodwright

    Unionville, Ontario

  9. GClancy | Dec 22, 2002 12:53am | #25

    May be too late for this suggestion, but...    You might try calling around to driveway/blacktop contractors, this time of year it's pretty much dead for them because of the weather, but they have the excavation equipment.   They may be interested in a small job for some quick cash.

    GC



    Edited 12/21/2002 4:56:37 PM ET by GCLANCY

    1. fdampier5 | Dec 22, 2002 06:20am | #26

      I sell construction equipment.  It was one of the companies perks to let salesmen take home equipment and play with it  (also helps us to be able to demo unit to new owner). 

        Anyway I took home a medium sized excavator when I worked for John Deere  (evan asked the boss) and started to do my own excavation.   !/2 way thru it and it was getting dark so I quit for the night. Overnight we had one of those gully washers that filled up the hole I was digging.  (and of course I was on the "wrong" side of it with no way out except thru a 8 foot hole)  Naturally a customer called to buy that exact machine except he needed it NOW!

           I won't tell you the antics I went thru in an attempt to get the excavator out and to the customer.  Basically I refilled the hole in and used a skid steer to drag it thru the resulting mud/quagmire.  Oh yeh, I lost my job over it too!

            I started with a new company but this time I spent the $1600 bucks to have the foundation hole dug for me.......

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