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DIY floor tile questions.
I live in a fine home; since I have a great family. The house, though, could never be mistaken as fine. Its a 2-story “production” tract house. Every fourth or fifth house in the subdivision is identical, with some roof and front elevation changes. I need to do something about the upstairs hall bathroom floor. It originally was (and is now) carpeted along with the entire second floor (except for vinyl in the “master” bath). I have three young kids and the hall bath floor held up fine while they were in diapers. When my daughter uses the bathroom, she has no trouble hitting the target. But the 2 boys are all over the map. As a result, the carpet (yes the toilet is actually set on the carpet) is a stinking mess (and you thought cat urine was bad!). My wife insists that we tile this bathroom
‘b SOON.
And we shoud do the master bath vinyl area as well, since it was patched in original installation (something heavy probably punctured it), and the patch seams have opened up. And since we are doing the 2 upstairs bathrooms, we should also do the downstairs 1/2 bath as well. So I will be doing some tile work. I want to do all the floors and the wall behind the toilet in the hall bath (up to the “over the john” vanity countertop extention).
Approximate dimensions:
downstairs 1/2 bath: 4’6 x 7′ with 4’6 vanity
upstairs hall bath: 5′ x 8′ with 5’6 vanity
upstairs MBath vinyl: 5′ x 6′ with 2′ x 2′ cabinet in corner
Current flooring:
downstairs 1/2 bath: vinyl direct on concrete slab
upstairs hall bath: carpet and pad over plywood ? 5/8? subfloor on joists 16″ oc.
> wall behind the toilet: painted 1/2 drywall, knockdown texture
upstairs MBath vinyl: vinyl over plywood ? 5/8? subfloor on joists 16″ oc. (I haven’t looked under the carpet yet, so I’m guessing about what’s below, but the entire second floor is very very soft. I understand that the tile needs to go onto an inflexible base.)
My questions:
* My wife is unable to provide direction on tile sizes. (I got plenty of direction on color). I’d like to use large tiles to minimize grout joints. But these are small spaces. What would the decorators say about appropriate tile size. Is 8″ square a good compromise?
* Downstairs, I will remove vinyl and install directly over slab. I will use thinset. What do I need upstairs? Will 1/4 concrete backerboard over existing (or repaired) plywood provide a good substrate? If I need a thicker substrate, how do I transition to hall carpeting? If I need another substrate (say, another layer of ply), what do I use to set the tiles?
* How do I prepare the wall (behind the toilet) and what do I use to set tiles there?
* Since finished floor heights will be changed, how do I adjust toilet flange heights?
Thanks for all the help.
–jim x 3
Replies
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jim,
8" tile is a good choice for the bathrooms. I like to put it on the diagonal in small bathrooms like that. It just looks nicer.
1/4" concrete board is not enough. You need 1/2" set in thinset with a notched trowel and fastened properly. This will give you the minimum subfloor thickness needed for tile of 1 1/8". I would use a beveled marble threshold for the doorways, set at the proper height.
I would probably scrape the wall behind the toilet until I thought it was smooth enough for the tile. Then install your mastic and tile.
If the toilet flange needs to be raised, you'll probably need to cut the flange off, possibly some pipe also, and install new. Depending if there is unfinished basement or not, difficulty will vary. Sometimes there is enough play in the whole toilet drain apparatus that you can lift it up enough to put the new stuff under the existing flange. If replacing the flange is a real pain in the neck, and you can only get the concrete board under the flange and not the tile, I've had good luck tiling around the flange. It's not the ideal, but it works.
Good luck.
Red dog
*jimsIs your wife dead set on tile? There are some really nice vinyls out there. You'll avoid alot of time and trouble. Show her the best quality Mannington vinyls, since the bathrooms are small you can probably get a high quality vinyl, depending on your budget. If the wife won't budge, there are some great books on tiling, I like Michael Byrnes book. Plus there is alot of information in the archives on this website (use the search button).Here are some links to get you started wetsaws discussion backerboardsBy the way, my boys are 10 and 11 and still can't aim. I wish I still had their velocity, though ;-)good luck, jim
*One day at my house Momma said if you want to stand and pee ,and not hit the target, then you can clean the bathrooms.I only stand to pee at work now also at restaurants,not masculine but it beats cleaning the bath.I'd go with quality vinyl if you can convince the wife.I think it may be a little warmer on the feet in hthe morning and less headache to install.jim
*Jim,etc. YUK! Agree with Jim at great white- teach 'em to clean it up. Second, your wife's right: if you wnat a fine home, skip the vinyl. Please. As a tile installer, here are some thoughts:-use 12 x 12's or larger on all the floors you can, using non-slick tiles.Little toes use grout lines to grip onto for safety, but if you sue bathmats, etc. you should be OKJ.Seal those grout joints and opt for darkish colors!-install over slab but acid wash first if you aren't absolutely sure it hasn't been treated! Don't want tile not adhering.Otherwise, installing over is OK.-Hardibacker, 1/4" is OK over ply but tighten down any squeeks first. 1/4" will help the tile to carpet transition, too.Install an oak threshold there (no, not metal).-Tile up the wall that gets peed on, but silicone caulk the joint first- really well. Also, thinset and fiber tape that critical joint, too.-any good hardwar store, tile store has a toilet ring extension. Just fits over the toilet bolts (have to buy 2 new ones to reach the toilet) and buy new wax ring, too. Your'e going to replace those probably smelly toilets, too, right? Call your water co. We have a free toilet replacement program- exchange for low-flow toilets, bring in the old ones.-Let your wife read this. She's OK.
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If you put in tile, go with half inch backer board nailed down into a bed of thinset. Also, a great touch to a tile floor is an electric heating circuit which goes between the cement board and the tile. It's very easy to install and not too expensive for small spaces. A company in Surey, British Columbia called Nuheat makes stalk and custom sizes available in 110 and 220 volt systems. Very nice to step out of the shower onto a warm tile floor!!!!! It'll make that pee overspray smell even better too!
*Regarding the toilet flange, if height needs to be marginally increased you can allow for this by using two wax seals instead of one. Place the first one with integral plastic sanitary collar onto flange. Second ring, a plain wax one without a collar stacks onto the first. Seat well with pressure exerted on toilet when seating. Use new johnny bolts, installedbefore toilet goes on. Good time to replace the water shutoff also.Sounds like the original ring was leaking . This is a periodic maintenance item. Be prepared to find wood damage when carpet and toilet come up. Patch in using fir plywood of same size used originally. Before placing the patch in, apply 2x wood blocking at all seams of the patch so that they support the new plywood and the adjoining old plywood. Use subfloor adhesive at these joints and coated deck screws at least 2 1/2" long to fasten patch down.Use thinset with notched trowel, then 1/2" concrete board. Use special fiberglass mesh tape for thinset tilework and thinset to close up all joints. Be neat. Regular fiberglass mesh for sheetrock gets eaten up by the portland cement in the thinset.Tile can go down with quality adhesive with notched trowel, or use thinset. Notch sizes determined by tile size. Eight inch tile is being phased out by manufacturers, better to go with six inch. Big tiles should only be used in larger bath due to size. Use spacers to set tile. Grout and consider a grout aealer brush-applied to grout joints especially in pee areas.Mix thinsets to smooth plastic consistency per specs, not too much water. Let slake per directions on bag, then restir. Same with grout. Not too much water/loose mixture in either as it dilutes portland cement. Use grade 4 tile, All Residential/Light Commercial.Rent tilesaw for all cuts. Less breakage and smooth cuts result. If cutting with scratcher type cutter, get tile rubbing block to smooth off cut edge of tile nearest floor surface. No cut feet this way if groutjoint is not full, or grout wears away.Buy tile nippers to help with cuts. Tilesaw makes only light radius cuts by making several kerf cuts, nip waste out with tool gently. Cut square notches for vanity corners etc.,carefully. These cuts often break, don't be agressive.Grout in seam under toilet for clean appearance.Good luck, take your time.
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DIY floor tile questions.
I live in a fine home; since I have a great family. The house, though, could never be mistaken as fine. Its a 2-story "production" tract house. Every fourth or fifth house in the subdivision is identical, with some roof and front elevation changes. I need to do something about the upstairs hall bathroom floor. It originally was (and is now) carpeted along with the entire second floor (except for vinyl in the "master" bath). I have three young kids and the hall bath floor held up fine while they were in diapers. When my daughter uses the bathroom, she has no trouble hitting the target. But the 2 boys are all over the map. As a result, the carpet (yes the toilet is actually set on the carpet) is a stinking mess (and you thought cat urine was bad!). My wife insists that we tile this bathroom
'b SOON.
And we shoud do the master bath vinyl area as well, since it was patched in original installation (something heavy probably punctured it), and the patch seams have opened up. And since we are doing the 2 upstairs bathrooms, we should also do the downstairs 1/2 bath as well. So I will be doing some tile work. I want to do all the floors and the wall behind the toilet in the hall bath (up to the "over the john" vanity countertop extention).
Approximate dimensions:
downstairs 1/2 bath: 4'6 x 7' with 4'6 vanity
upstairs hall bath: 5' x 8' with 5'6 vanity
upstairs MBath vinyl: 5' x 6' with 2' x 2' cabinet in corner
Current flooring:
downstairs 1/2 bath: vinyl direct on concrete slab
upstairs hall bath: carpet and pad over plywood ? 5/8? subfloor on joists 16" oc.
> wall behind the toilet: painted 1/2 drywall, knockdown texture
upstairs MBath vinyl: vinyl over plywood ? 5/8? subfloor on joists 16" oc. (I haven't looked under the carpet yet, so I'm guessing about what's below, but the entire second floor is very very soft. I understand that the tile needs to go onto an inflexible base.)
My questions:
* My wife is unable to provide direction on tile sizes. (I got plenty of direction on color). I'd like to use large tiles to minimize grout joints. But these are small spaces. What would the decorators say about appropriate tile size. Is 8" square a good compromise?
* Downstairs, I will remove vinyl and install directly over slab. I will use thinset. What do I need upstairs? Will 1/4 concrete backerboard over existing (or repaired) plywood provide a good substrate? If I need a thicker substrate, how do I transition to hall carpeting? If I need another substrate (say, another layer of ply), what do I use to set the tiles?
* How do I prepare the wall (behind the toilet) and what do I use to set tiles there?
* Since finished floor heights will be changed, how do I adjust toilet flange heights?
Thanks for all the help.
--jim x 3