DIY impression-contractor costs/quality
First to admit I’d never be able to build a set of stairs like Stan Foster or a deck like Prodek or cabinets like Blodgett. Pretty sure 90% of the pros here likely do a better and faster job than any of my DIY, but also think that the pros here are in the top 5% of contractors/tradesmen in general. Positive that 100% do better drywall <G>.
There have been a couple of posts recently alluding to these comparisons in the opposite direction .
My own impression is that the skill and proficiency level of the pros on BT are so far above the norm that it is hard to make comparisons with what the normal person encounters.
Anyway, this post primarily to start a discussion on the topic of DIY vs hiring, as I personally have zero experience in hiring anybody but DDS or MDs. (I dont consider building inspectors or vehicle smog inspectors as being hired, I’m forced to pay by gov reg. to ‘avail myself of the ‘servce’).
Only experience with anybody being hired is 3 episodes with Mom’s house in central IL. If others have had similar experiences to these, the building trades(apart from those on this board) are typically a real sleazy bunch. Have never even called anyone myself for any type work other than medical.
1. Just before he died, Pop hired a group to EPDM about 1-1/2 square of low slope roof, cost $3k. Spent another 1/2 day (during #3) repairing their screwups (mostly on poor corner treatment) on a trip back.
2. Just after pop died, brother traded a contractor who owed him $4k to paint Mom’s house for the balance – guy sent out 2 illegals with a pressure washer and spray gun – godawfulest paint job I’d ever seen – washer gouges in the siding, lots off loose chips left, etc. Would have been better if they had never touched the house. Probably gonna need to scrape and re-paint myslef next year although 2000 mi away.
3. Mom’s house also needed new roof. Brother (in same town) first called 8 roofing outfits for bids, only one guy came by and he did not bid. Roof needed built in gutters torn off and eaves extended, quite a bit more work than a simple re-roof. Younger son and self went back (from 2000 mi away) and to do the re-roof/framing, out of pocket cost was well under $2K including airfares for selves and DWs. Son is retired, but say 120 hours total at $60 hr is <$10K total. Admit I did a relative ‘hack’ job (e.g. tar vs. flashing) on the roof as the house is probably worth < $50K and Mom is in late 80’s.
Also, any experience with co-workers and auto repair show great disparities. – e.g co-worker got a bid to replace a timng chain and WP of $550 on a 350. Told him to come over with a six pak. 45 min and $30 worth of parts later we were drinking a beer, his car ready to roll…… nealy all own car repairs take less time than it would take driving down to get a bid.
Maybe will get some interesting comments??
Replies
I think a real problem for people is that they don't even know what they need to look out for. Even from past conversations here, it seems that homeowners need to be their own GC, just to make sure their GC is doing their job.
Last year we were replacing our furnace. After some pestering on HVACtalk I felt I had enough information to know what to look for in a quality install. When I got the bids for the job, I told them that my signing with them was contingent on my seeing an example of their work on a previous client - they got to choose the client.
The low bidder sent me to his sisters house. She was very happy with the job the workers did. Then I went into the attic. Besides just being a mediocer install, there was one line that had popped off the plenum. Niiiicee. I thanked her for her time and suggested she call he brother to get that fixed. I left her a $20 bottle of wine for her trouble.
The next bid, at $1800 more, had a great installation. All the details I was looking for were there, and there seemed to be great care taken in their work. Sold!
The thing was, each example customer was equally happy with the company who serviced them, but only one had the quality installation that went with the customer recommendation. How are people told to evaluate contractors?: Get recommendations from people you know. But how does a dentists recomendation of an electrician qualify as being worthwhile?
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
"t homeowners need to be their own GC,"That would be from my POV, laughable, if it were not so sad.There are some HOs who are capable of serving as their own GC, but 95% are not. Example:
I had a customer who cconstantly got in the way, changed things, made bad decisions and tried to 'help'. He ended up ading at least fifteen thousand to the cost of the job while making it a a lower quality overall, yet he is ignorantly under the impression that he saved himself some money by getting in the way.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
dave had a good point:
<<<
Good subs can go bad in a second. They hire a new guy who sucks, they get into marital trouble, they get into money trouble, they burn out. Same with employees. Hell, if I don't watch out, the same could happen to me. >>>
the best advice i can give is ask for references and check them outMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
>>I had a customer who cconstantly got in the way, changed things<<
I had one of those before, I was framing his house and on the back corner it had a half octagon that tied into the roof. I had to hang alot of trusses off a double LVL header in the ceiling. Then over frame the octagon.
Well it was a bad design, but the top of the beam had to be cut a little to not stick out of the roof. I had cut it off even with the top of the sheathing.
I come back the next day and he had taken a chainsaw to it and sut it too shreds. The beam had 1/2" of bearing now and tapered back 20". Making it worthless. He wanted me to scab in a new piece of sheathing over the old hole for the beam.
I accidentally called the inspector, anonimously. He showed up and red flagged it. $5k later his roof got reframed the same way and passed.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
Some ccustomers learn from something like that.This guy would go right from one stupid mistake to another.....I ended up yelling at him at first, then finally let it become a daily amusement. For my own sanity.Then I quit
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
This guy was along those lines, took all I had not to quit. After a while we were placing bets on what he would change while we were gone at night.
Then finally after I had enough of fixing what he thought was right, I said "One more time I have to fix something of yours I am done with you. You want to act like an employee, then I'll treat you like one.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
I think you got caught up in the first part of what I said, but missed the second part:
Anybody who is a GC better dang well be qualified for the job - obviously the guy on your project was not! A GC not only has to understand the work involved, but has to know schedualing, budgeting, personel management, blah blah blah. You of course know many more things to tack onto that list. The point I was lamenting is that ordinary people are truely screwed if the GC isn't good at his/her job, and most ordinary people cannot tell if their GC is doing their job until it is too late.
Unless you know enough to do their job, you'll never know if they are doing their job.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
I'm a contractor. I hire people to work on my projects for a living. Its what I do. Of course, I also provide a lot of work myself, and by means of my employees.
My point, 'tho, is that the interviewing, hiring, and supervising of professionals to work on a construction or remodeling project is a skill that is learned. No way someone who doesn't do it for a living could do it as well as a seasoned pro with a proven track record, unless by blind dumb luck, or a huge investment of time and resources. DIY is probably less fraught with danger, if you are reasonably patient, skilled with tools, and able to trouble-shoot.
To me, many of the posts I read about problems resulting from a homeowner hiring their own subcontractors reveal as much about the deficiencies of the hirer, as it does the hired. A good contractor spends years building up a network of quality subs, and years learning what to look for in new subs, and ways of weeding out the jokers and poseurs. And years learning how to bring out the A-game in the subs he has.
I could list numerous examples of this. One guy I worked for was acting as his own GC. He hired a contractor to do some concrete work, and the guy showed up in an SUV, and all his tools were brand new, with BigBox stickers still on. I called him up right away, and told him Red Flag alert. He ignored me, and went on to experience all kinds of grief and problems with this sub. Yet I knew immediately that something was wrong with the picture.
I gave him the names of some reputable plbg. contractors I deal with. He ignored my list, and found a cheapo lowball plbg. contractor who didn't show up to complete the job. When a dispute arose over payment schedule, he ended up with $4K worth of vandalism to his rough plumbing.
One customer decided to hire his own floorcovering contractor, to save money. I did a room addition, minus the floorcovering. He ended up unhappy with the result and involved in litigation over it, and spent more money than he ever would have if he had just let me handle it, with my own floorcovering sub.
Not to say I don't have problems with flaky subs also, but since I have to be responsible for their work, I tend to spot problems quickly and fix them thoroughly, and I have 18 years' experience doing just that.
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 11/12/2007 1:30 pm by Huck
Huck, I agree completely with your outlook on working with people. The way I see it, any relationship is a two way street. So if you are consistently getting poor results from people you need to look in a mirror. And yes, it will take time and money to weed out the ones who just don't play well with others.
I think a lot of people have lost the skills it takes to work with people in the trades. It comes from an overall lack of respect for the trades. People want to approach it like buying a car. It's not some nice neat package you can buy that was manufactured.
So true. And even the good guys have bad days. We're not just buying a product, we're buying people - well, people's time and skills, anyway. Its like a coach - he can't just hire a bunch of skilled players, and turn 'em loose.
So, like it or not, an important part of my job is getting acquainted with the people working on my project, and trying to determine what issues they have that might present a problem, and how best to deal with those issues without alienating them. Getting the workers on any given project to get on board with your goals is a real challenge. The good news is, once a worker becomes motivated to produce a quality job for a client, he or she will often surpass even their boss'es minimum standards.
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
From my own observations, if you as the homeowner know anything about building, you will do a better job then 80% of the contractors out there. You will not be as quick and it won't be as elegant but it will be a better overall job. My one caveat here is "if you truly know something about construction and have actually done it in the past." This would apply for simple re-roof jobs, painting, most plumbing installs, a good deal of electrical (assuming you also know the codes and what and what not to do), and a lot more. In my own case I would not attempt inground pool install, HVAC, flat roof repair/install, Photo voltaic panel installation or any roof work over two stories in height (Slate roofs also out of my league). There's a bunch more that I would leave to the professional, I know them when I see them, the trick is knowing, honestly, when they do and don't exceed your abilities.
The reason you'll do a better job is simple, when it's your house you'll make the effort to do it properly or try just that much harder to get it right.
Your negative experiences with contractors are not uncommon. Often when friends ask me why I don't just "write a check" I ask them to provide the name of a good contractor. "Oh gee, that's a tough one" is usually the response.
I believe there are different levels of DIY'ers just like contractors.
1. Low Level DIY - Cheap and quick no matter what, dive in without research, duct tape it to fit. Thinks contractors are stupid thieves almost without exception.
2. Mid Level DIY - Cost still an issue, readily believes people at Big Box stores and DIY TV shows, but will call in a Pro if a mess is made. Thinks contractors are 50% thieves and/or 50% stupid.
3. High Level DIY - Quality is main issue, researches methods and materials before starting, knows when to hire a Pro to avoid steep learning curves. Knows some contractors are thieves, some contractors are stupid, but can actually spot the good ones.
As for myself, I naturally like to think I am a High Level DIY'er. I have tackled every aspect of building you could name mainly because I enjoy it and like to make my own messes. I easily fall into analysis paralysis in an effort to avoid making a critical mistake. (Yeah I am the idiot who ordered the wrong size window in another post, so mistakes are always a fact of life.) :-) Through my experiences I now know the areas of building I will tackle, and those I will contract out to a pro assuming I can find one.
My own experience hiring professionals over 30+ years (including MD's etc.) has been that you MUST understand how 90% of how something should be done before you can really judge a potential hire. I can make an informed decision hiring a pro only if I can speak his trade's language reasonably well and understand what he'll be doing in pretty darn good detail. Any time I have relied on trust in the form of cursory explanations, references, or reputations alone, I have been disappointed. Trust, but verify. (Quite frankly, this is more true IMHO when picking an MD than a roofer!)
For a good contractor/mechanic/MD, I am an ideal client who understands quality and workmanship and is willing to pay fairly for something to be done right. For an average to poor service provider, I am their worst PITA know-it-all DIY'er nightmare who will seemingly be on their backsides for every little thing.
The biggest disappointment I have is that the building trades seem not to be viewed by our society as a generally admirable career choice worthy of a lifetime's effort. This steers the majority of the brightest and best in other directions. It was not always so.
The people who post on this forum are usually the notable exceptions who could have become professionals with letters behind their names (practicing) in other fields, but chose to excel building structures. Thanks to them for sharing their knowledge and experience. I only wish they were more plentiful.
"The biggest disappointment I have is that the building trades seem not to be viewed by our society as a generally admirable career choice worthy of a lifetime's effort. This steers the majority of the brightest and best in other directions. It was not always so."
Just before reading your post, I came across this in the January 2007 "Preservation" magazine regarding the construction of the Latrobe-designed basilica in Baltimore, started in 1806:
"The builders at one point read Latrobe's plans upside down. Piers and walls ended up too short; foundation stones that wouldn't be visible were hand-hammered, inexplicably and expensively. Unneeded marble was delivered for the granite-walled shell ... The builders were incompetent, hostile, possibly drunk, and corrupt."
I got a chuckle out of that, but I definitely agree with your premise. I tried to talk one of my own sons into a more "hands-on" career, but he couldn't be pursuaded. Besides society's view of the trades as somehow being "lesser," I think a lot today's youngsters are put off by the physical demands of the labor itself.
Allen
excellent post"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
I have real mixed feelings on this issue. It's a very interesting question to me.
I have been doing a lot of DIY house fixing over the last 3 years, since I bought a 200 year old house in need of lots of work. I have hired experts whenever I can find them but I have had a hard time finding (and identifying) experts. I have also done a number of things myself that I had never attempted before. I have a tendency to think I know a thing or two about building and repairing - I think I'm a better than average DIYer, but not extraordinary. I'd probably put myself in ... mmm... maybe the 85th percentile among DIYers that I know.
I'm an engineer by profession in a fast changing technology field so my career is built upon researching new technology and applying it. So I think I know how to learn the stuff I need to know.
But MAN! Every time I do some job and think I know what I'm doing and think I've done a good job, I later find I missed something. Or there is a better way. Every time. Or I find that when I have to do it under time pressure I have to settle for a less elegant outcome than I would like.
I have come to believe that nobody (no pro and certainly no DIYer) is always going to get it perfect (i.e. the best possible job given the current state-of-the-art). But somebody who does it for a living and especially somebody who specializes is going to have a much better chance at getting it right than somebody like me who does each job once - maybe twice or three times, but not every day.
My philosophy used to be that I could do the research and do a job just as well as a pro most of the time and often do better than most. I don't believe that any more. Sure, I'll be able to do most jobs better than 40% or 50% of the pros out there because they are not all at the top of their profession. But in my house, if I can afford it, and I really care about an item, and want it to be the best possible, I'll hire an expert if I can. I don't want to settle for the job that's in the 50th percentile if I can afford better.
The other thing I've learned is that these jobs require knowledge AND manual skills. A smart person can acquire the knowledge as fast as they can find and absorb information. Acquiring the manual skills often takes much more time and practice. You can't google up a steady hand with a paint brush.
So that leads to the question of being able to find and recognize an expert. Having done a lot of DIY certainly helps me to spot them when I see them but not always. So it's still a crapshoot as far as I can tell.
So now my philosophy is to spend my DIY hours on jobs that give me the greatest personal satisfaction (and where I'm content to accept the quality level that I can achieve, even if it's not as good as what I could get by hiring). This is the "Junior's finger-painting is a Picasso to me" theory of DIY. For the rest I hire somebody whenever I can afford it. I try my best to find true experts to hire and I learn about individuals through my experience. But it's still a crapshoot.
Bob
One of the best things I did when we bought an old house was find a reliable company to do plumbing, heating, electrical work. They installed a new heating system, rewired most of the house, fixed the plumbing, etc. I can fix most stuff if I have the time and tools, but there is nothing like a professional who can come in an emergency with a well-equiped truck. One New Year's day I needed help figuring out why the toilets wouldn't flush and they came, diagnosed the problem and helped me (in a snowstorm) dig up the broken pipe to the septic system. Those guys aren't cheap, but they are on call 24/7 and do a good job and never have a call back. I refer everyone I meet to them.
I tell my (college) students that they can go through most of life without needing a lawyer, but the first thing to do when they buy a house is to find a good plumber and cherish him or her.
I trust my mechanic. It helps that he, his wife and children are a couple of our closest friends. Here's the clincher-he's a very good mechanic and has spent his life doing just that. We usually arrange our exchange of talents with no money changing hands.
For any other repairs I might need that I don't really do, I have subs whom I can call. These guys are the best and most reliable in the area. I pay their bill when it comes.
If I hadn't accumulated this network over the past 30/40 yrs I don't know how I would do. For even people that talk a good game are often times full of hot air. By being in the trades for all these years I think I've come across about every configuration of talent imaginable.
And you are right as rain about the talent on the board. There's some pretty qualified folks around here. What is even more remarkable is that they are almost to a one-an every day type of person. Their talent added to the belief that their work is their name gives their customers something that most don't find.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
The more of this I do, the more I realize that price is not necssarily reflective of quality. I have hired subs and laborers. Sometimes, it was hard to know the difference. (G)
I can see how some people could pay too much and not get the quality they should. I am yet to see a situation where one pays a little and gets superior quality.
I feel that too many "contractors" charge more than they are worth, largely because the quality is not there in the materials or the assembly. On the other hand, if the cistomers pay it, then it is they who make the decision of what it is worth.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Very interesting topic. I am like Huck, I hire contractors for a living. It is not something that can be perfected, made easy, or run on cruise control. I am constantly vigilant against problems, and constantly educating myself on how things are to be done. I watch what everyone does, inspect work before and after the day starts or ends, and generally stay on top of things all the time.
In spite of a huge commitment to this, I STILL have problems with work done, sometimes big ones. The guys that just drywalled my shop did a mediocre job. They started out strong a finished weak, late, and in a hurry. So now that the first line of defense has been breached, what is the second? We're starting with backcharges to I can pay the painter to reskim their work. We're withholding money. We're maintaining a friendly disposition but insisting that the work be right, one way or another.
Good subs can go bad in a second. They hire a new guy who sucks, they get into marital trouble, they get into money trouble, they burn out. Same with employees. Hell, if I don't watch out, the same could happen to me.
Anyway, a high level of awareness, technical expertise, and vigilance. It is anything but easy.
I hire contractors for a living. It is not something that can be perfected, made easy, or run on cruise control
Hoo-boy you said a mouthful there. Its my feeling that to do it effectively you have to be part dictator, part building inspector, part therapist, part friend, part parent, part probation officer, part coach, part student, part teacher, and maybe part crazy!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
someone post his in the BT Qoutes thread. It's a perfect job description."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
I often hear comments along the lines of "I can't believe that they want so much to do so little." I also hear "Why can't I find anybody?"
The short answer: Don't blame the world for your own ignorance.
Contractors cost money, because running a business costs money. A man may put in 10 hour days, yet only be able to bill for 6. During all that "down" time, the bills still need to be paid. Don't think that is time spent at the bar, either ... it's time lost at city hall, driving around, meeting with customers, preparing bids, etc. Not to mention all the other costs a legal contractor has, that are not shared by his trunk-slamming competition.
A pro has the training, tools, and experience to do the job a lot better, a lot quicker, than the DIY. Notice I said a "pro;" there are a lot of pretenders out there. If he suddenly needs the help of another trade, or some strange part, he's got a 'network' to call upon.
Time has its' own value. Perhaps the most extreme example is one I recently learned of: A mother and teen-age daughter have been completely without a shower (or tub) since last March. Why? Their SLIT (slum lord in training) is too cheap to call in a plumber. He's been working in fits and spurts, during odd moments in his busy schedule. Now, I don't care how ugly the problems are; I'm pretty sure even the worst plumber in town would have fixed it back in March!
There is a flip side to the customer / contractor relationship: the customer. A lot of unhappiness seems to be the result of the customer having unrealistic expectations, not knowing what it is that they want, or changing their mind halfway through. The customer needs to ask themselves: What is more important? Do I want the roof fixed before it rains - or get the cheapest price in town? Sad to say, but most of the 'advice' put forth by sundry 'consumer advisers' is simply wrong; no wonder the customer is left wondering if he got a bad deal.
Sure pizzes me off to pay someone to do something I could have done better myself.
Bought a fixer one time and hired out the tile work. Entry, dining and kitchen floors.
First thing that caught your eye when you came in the front door was how crooked the grout lines were.
Too late by then, one of the biggest and best tile companies in the area, but screwed it up anyway.
Joe H
I am a high level DIYer, but its not fun. You guys in the trades that do your work well earn your bucks. I find my own good abilities curse me in that I know that in the time it takes to find a contractor, get him to come out, estimate, return, and finish, I could do the job myself. My wife and I work so the opportunity cost of staying home and hoping someone shows up is also very high. Thus, I do my own stuff. Finish and simple electrical, appliance install, fixture install, finish and some copper plumbing, build a fence, outbuilding etc.
Here is the hardest part for me: I can't hire people who will work with 'my' products. On some roofing, I asked for the Graco rollout/stickdown watershield instead of tarpaper. "Nope, we don't like that stuff" "Nope, that costs too much" "Nope, never heard of it" "Nope, don't know where to buy it" Gads, its wet in Seattle. Tarpaper may be ok, but if I wan't to pay the extra bucks for what I want ,humor me! I would hope the trades would embrace newer products if they could. Its tough when you look back at failed LP siding and other fiascos, but new stuff can be better. http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
"I can't hire people who will work with 'my' products"
I have run into this problem on many occasions. Some so-called pros I have run into don't even know products are available in manufacturers catalogs they already use. Nobody can always be up on the latest and greatest, but you're right that they should at least take a look at new materials.
Sometimes I chalk it up to the old "it ain't broke" routine, but many times it's just classic ignorance. You will see the same issues in the medical profession when docs are still doing things the way they learned them in med school and refuse to try, or even read up on a new method.
Experience - doing it the same way over and over again or progressively better skills leading to excellence? Sometimes it's hard to tell ahead of time.
At least the pros with letters behind their names all admit to be 'practicing' their craft. :-)
I am a doc and you are correct. It is a 'practice.' We have continuing education requirements but its not always enough. One of the best way to stay current as you age in your practice is to simple surround yourself with other new people who you can learn from or refer to. You sort of become a traffic director, a coordinator of care. There are several areas where I have literally had to change everything from what I knew due to new meds, new testing devices, new protocols. Its exhausting to be a perpetual student if you will. I think this is why lots of guys reduce the practice time when they get older. You just can't keep up with everything and see a full load too.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
etherhuffer,
there are several reasons why a "pro" may not want to use "your" materials.
1)I have spent 20 years doing much the same thing-over and over. I have arrived at the combination of specific materials that give me the results I want----based on experience with THOUSANDS of preceding roofs. I KNOW my way will work- I have no such gaurantee doing it your way will work( hey- I don't tell YOU what meds to prescribe-right ??? :>)
2) I constantly experiment with (and usually reject) different materials on the market. chances are excellent that I have already used "your" material-- and have found it's limitation/drawback---and already rejected it from my usual practice. I may be simply too tired to explain to you specifically WHY "your" material is problematic.
Often -new materials are "solutions" in search of a problem
3) Most professionals have a large "bag of tricks"- to be used to get the desired result.- flat roofs are a good example.- I might suggest to a homeowner on one side of the street an EPDM roof--------- but might insist on a modified bitumen roof for a highly similar house on the other side of the street( based on overhanging tree limbs, color, expected foot trafffic, flashing details-whatever)
"your "Material may simply not be the right material for the job--- yes-- maybe I "should" sit you down and walk you through all the reasons why your idea may be a bad one---------- but, in reality- I didn't go into this business because of my overwhelming charm and people skills----- I have areas I excell at--and areas I don't--so I pick my battles carefully----- I am simply not interested in debating with customers!!
4) your problem is not my problem------------- but if I do it your way( instead of MY way-which I know works)----and problems arise--suddenly YOUR problem becomes MY problem.---and the customer ALWAYS forgets--that they were warned of this problem ahead of time
and so on and so on--------
Best wishes, stephen
Well said.
I see ether's point also, hacks that aren't educated or up to date on technology.
Two sides to every coin?
Heads or tails.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
there is also the third thing that I come accross, folks stuck in their ways and not willing to try something new. I've always done it that way. well sometimes new products can be good. it's worth being openminded. I agree that if I know something is not all it's cracked up to be or problematic, then I will in fact refuse to use it. I will however state to the customer that I had mediocre or bad experiences with that product and cannot in good concience use it and warranty it."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
All very good points. I have found over many years that the best way to deal with people who bring me their ideas is to acknowledge what they bring. Often, people read stuff(like I do) and want to know more. Simply telling someone that you have seen a new product but note that its oversold or not that great satisfies them. People often just want to know that they person they work with has an open mind and keeps up on stuff. Its all about reassurance.
Different personalities take different career paths. I have to be a negotiator all day. A lot of folks(try concrete pourers) tend to be rather gruff. I can relate to that. But when dealing with the public, its best to be assured of what you know but relate that in a way that reassures them that you are a smart guy.
One other corrollary is salesmen. I used to be in sales so I don't find salesmen all that bothersome. I can tell them "no" without guilt. But I respect the fact that they may be the only conduit to new things. When I sold business telephone systems I was amazed at biz owners lack of knowledge. That's when I realized that sales is part education as well. I now set aside time for sales people and tell them to go ahead and give me the pitch. I have learned a lot from these guys. http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
your problem is not my problem------------- but if I do it your way( instead of MY way-which I know works)----and problems arise--suddenly YOUR problem becomes MY problem.---and the customer ALWAYS forgets--that they were warned of this problem ahead of time
Yup. Just did a job (labor, customer provided paint) where customer wanted concrete floor painted with epoxy. I told her what we use (two part epoxy), and why. She insisted we use her product. I told her I couldn't guarantee the quality of the job with her product. Anyhoo, she bought her brand, and we painted with it.
Next day I get a phone call, she's unhappy with the job, wants a second coat. I told her I didn't bid it that way, and I warned her about this. Which she didn't remember, of course, only remembered that she hired us to paint the floor, and in her book that meant continue painting and re-painting until she was happy. Which I did, btw, because it was holding up a 6.5K payment, and I usually figure some extra bs work into my bid in the first place for scenarios like this.
But it serves to illustrate your point.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
junkhound,
I'm a DIY because of two reasons..
first nobodies ever built a house the way I wanted it built so they would have to learn right along side of me.
Second the cost I was quoted for a simple timberframe, not even the double timberframe I wound up building was more than 10 times any budget I had .
In the end the house cost me three times what I expected, but still less than 40% of what was estimated for only doing half of the job and not double timberframing like I wanted.. Pure guess here when totally done I will have spent less than $300,000 to do what was estimated to cost $2,200,000
I went into this with zero experiance timberframing.. and other than handywork for myself and a few friends and neighbors no real construction experiance at all.
Further I got my house built my way, not the way someone else who was more concerned with making a profit. I was able to use far better materials than a contractor would have because I thought outside the box..
There are two sides to that whole deal.
I agree to a large part that a high percentage of construction wrkers are pretty sleazy and certainly a number of them rise from being just worker to becoming the "contractor"
There are ways for homeowners to weed those guys out though.
I think the high percent of sleaze finds a way into constructiopn because there is littel vetting in hiring on new construction. It is far more important for me as a remodelor to find honest clean people to work inside the homes of folk that for a concrete ccontractor doing new wook or a roofer out on the exterior to to do any background to get lean honest law-abiding personel. All he needs is aa strong back much of hte time.
OTOH, and I don't mean this as an indictment of you and your family, nbut there are people who go about in the habit of always looking for a "deal" and so they projet unconsciously that they are not willing to pay for the good guys at the top of the industry. They send out little signals that tell me they really want somebody ccheap, so I don't even get together with them to begin the estimate process. Those folks can be eliminating the good or better ccontractors without knowing it, lreaaving the bottom of the barrel to scraape.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Here's my take...
You are darned if you do and darned if you don't.
As far as hiring someone, it takes due diligence, and patients. And no, it isn't gonna come out exactly the way you would have done it, since you didn't do it! I'm not saying anyone should accept sheet, but looking over people's work for small details that aren't excellent, sometimes, is just hindsight - unless maybe if you hire the most qualified and expensive person you can find and go over every detail before the fact... Sometimes you gotta just hire the best you can find and accept his work as good enough and at least professionally done.
I'm guessing rich people have more experience at hiring people to do their own stuff than I do... And I bet they are better at looking at the big picture too - since that might possibly be what got them where they are now... while still tending to the necessary details.
Not to pick on you personally, we are just discussing here, but didn't you say something about a hired out roofing job not getting done right, but then you DIYed it and used tar where flashing should have been used? Isn't that kind of a double standard? Sometimes it's easier to justify our own mess-ups than it is other peoples.
AS far as DIY - yea, well, we all (here) do it.... the thing is that sometimes it just takes crews of guys to accomplish a big task in a reasonable amount of time, or at least someone who is motivated by green cash to get the job done.... Case in point - here I am wasting time on my computer instead of doing the DIY stuff I need to... :-) For example, I read here about people building their own house - and when I say building, in this case I mean all or most all DIY. I say more power to them. But these guys take 3 or 5 years to complete a project that could be contracted out in 6 months. My life is too short for that. Right now we need a painter. Can I paint? Yes. But we need the job done in a reasonable period of time. We don't want to live in a construction site for the next 2 months...
Another example - I remember a post here some years ago where a guy said he had drywall stored in his under construction house for 10 years. He wanted to know if drywall goes bad. Reasonable question. I had to assume that the house had been dried in for 10 years, and at least nearly ready for drywall for 10 years. Sorry, but I considered this guy a fool. Sometimes you just gotta move on in life.
Show me a DIY fanatic, and 9 out of 10, I'll show you a bunch of unfinished stuff...
A man once said to me "not needing to do everything yourself just because you can shows maturity." Not my words - I'm just quoting...
BTW - I build houses by hiring out 99% of the actual on-site work. I work under deadlines and consistently make those deadlines....
didn't you say something about a hired out roofing job
just a clarification - tried to hire it, nobody would even bid which is why I flew 2000 mi. to re-roof a 105 YO house with a low market value. Probably the reason my brother (he only called roofers) could not get anyone to bid was that the need to tear off the rotted built-in gutters and reframe the eaves was more than just a shingles and stilleto valleys job. Once GC aspects of multiple trades came into play for a 2 day job (no roofers would take on the whole job apparently), it was time to DIY.
BTW, the house has had tar at the roof/chimney interface since it was built, so kept it that way <G>.
Probably part of the 'no-bid' was also that why work on an old house when there was plenty new construction in town at the same time.
I hope I'm a high leve DIY...built most of a house, certainly GC'ed it.Because of
1. Money ...as a farmer. I had the winter time, and half enough knowledge to start the project.2. Tech...not very many subs in my area know much about things like pex, geothermal, plastic sill pans, the mooney wall. etc.3. Care....Many simply don't care as much as I do, and I'm the type that finds all the flaws.I was lucky enough to know some people in the biz, my framers were great, Plumber fast and efficient(expensive, and hard headed).
Drywall finishers were ok.The basement crew was only cheap, that is the only thing that can be said about them, but due to my site prep, drainage work, and extra care in backfilling we have a dry crack free basement .I alwyas have been a jack of all trades type person, so that is probably one reason DIY works, I also have a lot of friends in the biz, so I have people to call with questions, and a place for references.A medium to large guy named Alan, not an ambiguous female....
NOT that there is anything wrong with that.
junkhound---------
on the roofing job------
I could be wrong---but I would be SERIOUSLY suprised if the real reason roofers wouldn't bid on it was an ample supply of new construction work.
In my experience--- there is comparatively zero money in new construction roofing--when compared to re-roofing well maintained older homes.
In your case-- you had a $50,000--that needed maybe $15,000--$20,000 of roofing work----and at the end of the roofing work--you still have a $50,000 house.
most roofers will drive up---almost instantly size up the situation and elect not to invest the time in working out a proposal which they assume has zero chance of acceptance.
I don't know where the house in question was--but if it was near a population center of any size--almost certainley there was a roofing contractor ready and able to do that project--- you and your brother just didn't manage to find him.
speaking personally----- I would have been perfectly happy to do it--providing we came to a meeting of the minds as reagurds to cost.
Best wishes,
Stephen
$15,000--$20,000 of roofing work
I might shuda gone into construction. Les' see, me, son, brother 2 days, 10 hrs/day = 60 hours. <$1k Material including delivery to the roof.
That works out to over $200/hr, way less than son made when he worked and about what brothter makes when he works, lots more'n poor ol' 40+ hr/week me.
Dont think I'd be able to land too many $200/hr roofing jobs, or could I???
I think if I'da put an add in the paper in Spfld IL (or even here) for a 6 man-day roofing job that would pay $15K, bet even JohnT8 would have taken a few days off at the bank and building his own house to come do a roofing job. <G>
PS; your assumption on impressions is likely correct though, all probably thought their truck would get ripped off in the now deteriorated part of town Mom lives in and she and Pop lived in for 80+ years. I liked the earlier post about Paul living on a Maine island where all the residents dripped money.
Edited 11/14/2007 6:42 pm ET by junkhound
junkhound,
could you earn $200/hour roofing for wages on somebodies payroll---probably not.
Can a person earn the equivalent of $200 plus per hour executing roofing contracts?
Absolutely. Every day
but it requires a substantial financial investment in equipment,teamwork,experience and reputation------and considerable liability.
time expended is only one component of cost--WHAT is accomplished in that time is a much more important influence on cost
and the risk of paraplegia?--priceless!
Stephen
It always amazes me how many people can't distinguish between what an employee "earns" per hour, and what a business bills per hour. View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Or what DIY can do that a contractor can't do.
As an example;
I was at a horse barn the other day and the owner came up to me," can you get me some breaker locks, because when the ladies try to turn on the arena lights, they always hit the wrong breakers and turn off other stuff"
Ok.
I go and get the locks - $4/ lock, he needs 20. ( even the girl at the supply house gasped when she pulled them up at > $5/ lock, and super discounted them for me.)
I take them back to him, and let him know, before I do anything, That these things are pretty out of line price wise. He says " WHAT, hell I can use tape!"
That is the point - HE can use tape - I can't.
As a qualified, consciencious contractor my cheapest proffessional fix will cost well over $100 compared to his ability to basically accomplish the same task for $1 worth of tape.
In my own shop I'd probably use tape also. It'll work. I just can't do it for someone else.
Things like this go into Haz's off the cuff price that he threw out there to Junk, and go directly against what Haz will make - loss. But the way Junk does the math, It falls into the total price divided simply by hours - profit.
The point is the way the job CAN be done by a DIY, and the way a job HAS to be done by a qualified contractor.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Edited 11/15/2007 7:04 am ET by JHOLE
JHOLE,
i think the original posters original post--had a reasonably valid twist to it--up to a point.
there are some highly labor intensive things that a homeowner who was reasonably fit,with some research should be able to do effectively- i am just not certain how COST effective it is.
Take roofing a simple gable roofed garage.
good example is a garge roof my friend and his son did this summer. Very intelligent folks( really, TOO intelligent for that type of work!) took the father/son team all summer-from late may/early june when the son graduated high school untill about the first week of August--just before he went to college.
now-MY son was a classmate of the other boy--but my son spent the summer working with me-and laughing at his buddy taking so long. He pointed out to his buddy" ya know-- my dad and I would have that thing done in an easy day. we would have the whole thing torn-off, the bad wood replaced and the new roof on-in time for us to be home by 3:00.
the father(My friend) was incredulous at this news-and asked me several times" I don't understand-how can you be so much faster than me?"
I didn't know how to explain it to him---but inside I knew---see the friend is a great guy--but he and his son-are really "knowledge based economy" people--they have different expectations than I do in the "sweat based economy"
when you figure out the time involved--and the earnings potential of the 2 friends---their money saving DIY garage roof was an exceptionally expensive garage roof. I could have saved them a lot of grief---- but the parents wanted the summer to be a "major life lesson" for the son. I hope it was--but I doubt that happened.
on the other hand-- i KNOW the summer my son spent working with me completely revolutionized his attitude towards college!
Best wishes,
stephen
>>Probably part of the 'no-bid' was also that why work on an old house when there was plenty new construction in town at the same time. <<
The way I figure it some say tomoto some say tomato. Some say both. What I mean is that I think you are right that some guys like me will only do new construction - given a choice. OTOH, other guys, including many here only do remodeling, or what I'll call HO work. I'm guessing that these guys make more $$$ at it - or at least have the potential to. And some do both - probably under the category of "whatever pays". Me, I don't have the patients to deal with HOs that much - might be different if I get hungry - I have been there before.
Really though, I know a hand full of roofers/roofing companies, but I'd surprised if any would tackle that job. Like you said - it's more of a GC thing.
you know, I think it is interesting that I am technically a DIY when it comes to my own carpentry needs. However, just like you stated, the job takes a long time. I choose to do this because I find it rewarding to finally do for myself what I am constantly doing for others. on the other hand I end up getting angry everytime I look at my house and just wish I had this or that done if only I had the time and money to finish it. Third thing that sometimes I do is I teach myself how to do something new on my own house. (learned how to tape and lay tile for instance). I am thinking in terms of hiring people at this point however."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
I've been a DIYer ever since I got my first bicycle and learned that ball bearings can roll a long way, in different directions, at the same time.
I've seldom hired anyone to do any physical labor since that time, mainly because I really want to be involved and learn how it all happens. From rebuilding complex engines to simple things like rolling paint, I've always wanted to have my own hands on the tools and my mind engaged in the process.
Fortunately I don't have a problem with asking questions and showing respect for those who are willing to teach me. It's a natural part of my interest and enthusiasm for learning something new.
Somewhere along the line, I decided to earn my living as a carpenter. That was a DIYer's decision too. I knew that I wanted to build my own home(s) and that carpentry was fairly complex so it made sense to commit a few years to working and learning the methods and skills involved.
Carpentry also made sense because it's so central to the related trades. Carpenters have to understand certain basics of other trades so as not to conflict with them. It follows that a curious carpenter can learn a lot from those other tradespeople, by just showing an interest and asking questions.
So, finding quality people results from having some basic knowledge through trying a few small jobs one self. Next, being respectful of all trades. Then asking a few good questions of the person you'd like to hire, to determine level of interest and ability. And finally, being intuitive enough to recognize a BSer.
One side note on this subject: I've always made a serious effort to do my best work on any job that comes my way. I don't allow my employees to slack off on quality, no matter how difficult it may be to maintain under the circumstances. Although I'm not a perfectionist, I'm always looking for ways to improve, both quality and production.
I've heard and read this lament from home owners, ever since I started in the trades: "Why is it so hard to find good people?" And yet, when I was active as a contractor my phone wasn't ringing off the hook from referrals. I got a few but not as many as I believed my work deserved.
I'll admit that the biggest disappointment of my time as a contractor and a sub was that my top quality work went largely unrecognized and unrewarded. Why?
Probably a lot of it had to do with destiny moving me along my path but it was also the many homeowners who looked upon me as their hired help. Granted, I never "sold" them on the quality of the job I was doing. After all, I was doing the work for my own gratification first and for them, second.
As it's been mentioned, many people see the trades as a lesser calling in life so it doesn't occur to them to show real respect for the work. They only find out how good a job they received when a neighbor or friend has a problem with similar work at their home. When they hear the horror stories then they think how "lucky" they were.
I got news: NONE of my good work happened in your home by luck. It was and is the result of diligent effort on my part, to learn and apply the skills and methods needed.
In conclusion; If you can't find good help ask yourself if you've ever been as respectful of good work as is appropriate. Do you begin conversations by telling your friends about the fine job a tradesman did in your home earlier in the week? If not, how in the world do you expect to hear about another homeowner's good experiences?
PS: what I actually did was I read your post and then thought about it for a day or so before responding, so I guess I got some of the initial statements turned around. Sorry for that.
Edited 11/14/2007 10:35 pm ET by Matt
Excellent observations non-the less, just what the post was intended to solicit.
I've been making the transition from a subcontractor to a GC over the past few years and some of the things I've learned is that hiring people is tedious. Either you hire quality people who you know and trust (from working along side them year after year on other jobs) or you hire a sub and watch them carefully. Never pay in full without the job being done completely and satisfactory. The hardest thing for a GC is to chase someone to fix or finish thier work. Second thing I've learned is a good GC expects to follow up to some degree (not everyone is as proficient as you might want them to be) and to figure that time into the job. third, treat subs, employees, and customers with respect while remaining firm and things usually go smoothly. if you become unrealistic or speak down to people or play games with people, you will get the minimum effort out of them. Finally, lead by example. if you do quality work, then others will try to match you.
as far as costs? keep in mind that any real business has high overhead expenses.
there are vehicles to maintain, tools to maintain, workers comp and liability insurance to pay, office expenses, payroll costs, cell phones, gas, computers, digital cameras, money to cover time spent looking at and bidding jobs you don't get, monet to cover the time of looking at, bidding, tracking, expensing, billing, collecting the jobs you do get. money to make the five calls a day you get from the same customer worth it, otherwise who would keep answering the phone, costs of accountants, lawyers if need be, and if you are lucky you might even have some money left over to buy you and your family health insurance. ever pay out of pocket for that? I could hire another guy for what I pay out for health insurance. It's not that simple as you can see.
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
http://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com