So, we’re trying to get a miniscule (56 sq ft) but very high paying addition off the ground. I strolled over to get my permit and the zoning dept told me they want “field measurements” of the site, that the sketch I did wasn’t acceptable (even though their forms say that for minor additions sketches such as mine MIGHT be acceptable). Now, I can’t see any scenario in which this addition will be a problem. It’s inset from the side of the house (that is, it is further in from the side lot than the side of the existing house is), and extends only five feet from the back of a house that’s located to the very front of a very deep lot.
Local surveyors tell me that I’m looking at 2500 for an “A2” survey, and while I may very well get the clients to pay for it ultimately, they sure won’t be happy and it will delay things considerably. Think there’s any point in my doing a more precise sketch showing fence lines, driveways etc to establish property lines? Any suggestions on DIY site maps?
PaulB
Replies
See if the clients have a plat from when they bought the place. Attach a copy of that, and do a cad drawing of the existing footprint plus the addition. Show where the prop lines are, and the easements. Label your new drawing as not to scale or something, making sure you reference the official plat for setbacks.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
My lawyer decided to give me a quick lesson on land records and we went to Town Hall where we found that the only maps on file were very old (house is from the 20's) and essentially worthless according to my lawyer. The deed uses the typical language "100 feet more or less from the pile of manure the Mr Smiths cow left last Sunday"...PaulB
You never said if you asked the HO if he had receive a survey. Or he got a mortage company survey.And ask the abuters.Sometimes, the survey will show ajoining lots (or more)..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Edited 5/14/2007 7:36 am by BillHartmann
And ask the abuters.
Sometimes, the survey will show ajoining lots (or more).
This works. I once owned a 1 ac lot here that had never been surveyed prior to my purchase. The neighboring lots had been and corners marked. Amazingly, the survey that was taken showed almost exactly the same amount of land the deed suggested. Built a 48' wide house on a 100' wide lot with 25' side setbacks.
Sometimes it shows up a problem. I've got a neighbor with never-surveyed property. His deed says 2 ac, but the public road's been moved. Looks to me closer to .5 ac. He doesn't want a survey, would prefer that I buy the property as is. No chance. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
It's hard for me to imagine buying a piece of property without a survey.
Me to, if you're talking absolutes, as it a survey, sometime. I didn't. But it's not unknown, particularly when it's family members (as my neighbor's purchase). The lot I speculated on was previously purchased in the early 40's, no survey. Times have changed.
The property I live on had a 7 yr old survey when I bought it, sufficient for me (no mortgage). Surveyors here hit hard times when lenders changed the rules about how recent a survey needed to be. Unlikely a house moved in the past year. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Not having a survey creates an escaoe for a title company to pay if there are boundary encroachments. There should be wording in your contract or a design contract...
.Owner to supply 5 copies of site plan survey to contractor suitable for AHJ to issue permit. No allowance given to provide or upgrade survey site plans.
.... I put the 5 copies there in case it's a crappy copy to start with, you're not on the hook for a better copy. I've been dealing with owner's survey site plans for 25 years. The biggest problem is the owners copying them and some part of the site engineers seal or notes is missing.
Not having a survey creates an escaoe for a title company to pay if there are boundary encroachments.
You presume title insurance. I'm a buyer, not all are. Never forget what the insurance covers, defense of the title. No warranty.
I much prefer caveat emptor.
If you're referring to the close setbacks, I required the owner's surveyor to set the corners of the house. Hired by the owner.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Sorry yes I meant title insurance. I coincidentaly was skipping the survey for a rental property I'm closing this week, no financing was needed but title ins. co. took exception and limits defense presumably. I've seen some surprising things on site plans, Ash Wednesday storm here in the 60s actually moved some outbuildings and they now encroach on other properties. I don't see anyone scanning surveys for setback encroachments but I have discovered minute encroachments like concrete fences , overhanging detached garages, etc that need recorded. After trying to save basically 215.00, I think I will not skip one of these again, it could be the title Ins cos. in the past just never said anything if I paid cash and didn't survey.
Edited 5/14/2007 9:53 pm ET by shellbuilder
The small commercial building I sold in Denver to finance my mountain here was built almost an inch over the property line, in 1911. Far as I know it's still there.
What I bought here had a neighbor's shed totally off his property. The legal advice I got was to simply give him permission, avoids adverse possession. On 83 ac, the space the shed took up was negligible. Still there. Doesn't show up on any survey, no problem with title insurance.
Title companies have been pretty badly burned on occasion. Here, attorneys routinely urge title insurance as a way to avoid a title search. I do my own title searches, but I sure wouldn't do one for anyone else.
Last property I bought was a major mess. A large portion of the sale price went to the attorney who tracked down the 13 owners, some of whom had no idea the house existed. That was one I definitely wanted title insurance on.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 5/15/2007 9:41 am ET by VaTom
I agree with a mess. I bought a old hotel and 3 building sites in 99 that had heirs getting 1/3,1/3 and 1/2. Thankfully it only took a couple months to find everyone. It is my understanding that adverse possession has little history in Virginia. I tied up a property for a year that had the neighbors driveway 99% on this property. Considering the lots wer less than 7000 sq. ft it made a difference between a long term problem, a midnight backhoe job or letting it go. I chose the latter.
"1/3, 1/3 and 1/2"? That must have been tricky.
Of my sellers, only one couldn't sign her name. Yup, I got an "X". Witnessed of course. From my purchase in '99, this property went back to 1935 when the last recorded owner died, intestate. He'd bought in '22. Survey? Whaddya want one of them for?
Guy I knew who'd lived there owned 1/3 but he was headed for a nursing home so his share paid the substantial attorney fee. I knew well, and fully respected, the guy doing the paperwork.
Upon closing I promptly took out a demolition permit. Slated for "historic" designation and I didn't want to be stuck with a larger liability. Sold before I razed it. Not my problem any more. Neither privy nor indoor plumbing, made me wonder.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Paul ,
Out here I can go to the county tax assessors office and get a photo copy of my plat map, sometimes also available from a title company .
Using that as a template one can do a very accurate sketch of where things sit on your lot and show setbacks to property lines etc. I draw the existing structure then show the additions foot print when I need to do this for my building dept.
We went to the tax office as well, and their maps (again according to my lawyer) were even worse. A friend of a friend who's a surveyor suggested I do a more precise "map" with beacoup measurements trying to incorporate existing fences etc...
PaulB
Edited 5/13/2007 9:44 pm ET by PaulBinCT
PaulBinCt,
Paul,
If things are that murky I would be paying for the survey. Twice I have had to deal with existing buildings that were actually built over property lines or into setbacks. Then most recently just discovered the building I was supposed to start last week was drawn over the line and into a street right of way setback. (Civil Engineer mistake in reading a survey). Each of these cases resulted in very costly remediations and lost time, far more than a survey would have cost up front.
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
As a surveyor (retired) I"d say somebody is pulling your chain, or this is a very high-dollar area that they are leary of "developments."
Get a copy of the legal description (meets and bounds), rent a metal detector, and find all the corners mentioned on the description, if possible. This will save some $ to the surveyor if he is needed. If no corners are mentioned, then attempt to find what they indentified as the corners....trees, walls, etc.
Make a sketch of the house and other improvements, and measure accurately with a good metal tape or surveyor's chain from at least two of the called-for corners to two corners of the house. Dimension the structure, and add the proposed addition to the sketch. There may be Public Utility Easements (PUE) present, so add these to the sketch.
Draft a letter explaining that you found the originial corners mentioned in your deed and how the structure is situated in relation to those. Be sure and include any volume and page numbers, or plat references in this document.
Your surveyor friend may need to sign off on this if he is an registerd professional land surveyor (RPLS). This is precisely what a surveyor does in these kind of situations.
Thanks very much Tom! I'm doing something very similar to what you're describing, but using existing fence lines, etc as references as I can't seem to find any pins on the property. But I do agree, I think I've run into one of the worst scenarios for a contractor... a frustrated low level bureaucrat.
Thanks again!PaulB
Hope it works out for you.
We used to do dozens of "as-builts" yearly for tax purposes and to see if specs were met on the structures and other site improvements.
I think it's a good service for the owner and could avoid any pitfalls in future sales.
Again...many many thanks to all who are helping me "pay my dues" with these questions.
Good news, they accepted the drawings I made.
Bad news, I need a variance. I'm DIYing that also (gulp). 14 pages and counting. Oh yeah, 9 copies of everything. Welcome to bureaucracy.
Keep you all posted.PaulB
For new construction I draw my plats for the permitting process using a rudimentary CAD program. Basically I have copied similar document formats produced by surveyors. That's a little different because the property has recently been surveyed, and there are most often corner irons in place. Further I have a plat (of some kind) to start with - perhaps a subdivision plan.
I have no idea what an A2 survey is, but my surveyor charges me between $125 to $200 a trip so the $2500 surprises me. Again, maybe it's different since the property has been recently surveyed (for the lot purchase) and further, I believe these surveys might be available online.
BTW - when did the place last change hands (sold/bought)?
I bought an aerial map off of the Internet and used that as the basis for my site map. The Google maps let you get down pretty close to a city sized lot on their free maps. You could probably buy similar maps from them that have better resolution.
Stop listening to the lawyer.
Go get a copy of the survey and ask the BD if is acceptable or not.
There has to be something on file somewhere that counts as a survey. If not; what they are telling you is that they want a new survey for the lot.
I think 2500 is fair especially if the maps and descriptions do refer to crappy benchmarks.
Split it with the HO.
Good luck!
Eric
[email protected]
Why split with HO?
The HO is the one that benefits from having it.
The HOs jusrisdiction is the one requiring it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
My contract specifies that I am not liable for expenses required by the town, so theoretically I'm OK there. It just would make things rather...unhappy on the job site I suspect. Anyway, will keep yas posted.PaulB
How long have they owned the place?
My experience has been varied as per zoning. Sometimes they're more difficult than the building department. And a particular answer one day will be something else another. Ask them first if a more thorough site plan drawn by yourself will suffice . . . ultimately they'll still have the final say.
The problem is that plat lines are not legal, you can't use existing lay-out to determine where the true line is. You need a survey. BTW if you build something thats on the wrong property you will have major voodoo. Luck.
any chance a metal detector would pick up the pin locations? i have found several that way by just looking at where the corners should be and start scanning. larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Great ideas all, thanks a million! I'm going to try the detailed DIY approach using fences, driveways etc. If they shoot me down, I'll have to bite the bullet. Yet another lesson learned... hopefully not an overly painful one.
Thanks again all!PaulB
I know these things, and their solutions, are often regional. Here the County Assessor's Office will print you what they call a "plotter drawing" of your property for $1. That is, they have a plotter that reads the legal description and draws the shape as well as printing any pertinent info (such as measurements) the recorded legal description shows. That doesn't tell you where it is, but for $1 you can find out the shape and measurements.
Another approach that might work here is to ask a surveyor for an "Improvement Location Certificate". Here this is done all the time to satisfy a lender that the improvements are, in fact, on the property. An "ILC" does not get you a plat, does not require the surveyor to set any pins, and does not guarantee measurements to be exact. Often a lender, the owner, or a previous owner may already have an ILC. Our surveyors keep lists of the ILCs they've done and will tell us in a minute's phone call if they already have one for the subject property. Ask around about surveyors. Often a neighbor will know what survey outfit did the work that's been done in the neighborhood.
Another thought is that your jurisdiction may have a proceedure to deal with this sort of problem. Here where I live, I serve on the County's "Board of Adjustment", a Planning and Zoning offshoot. Any time an owner wants to do something that the zoning code doesn't allow and the inspector won't issue a permit for, the issue can be brought before our board and we often can agree to some sort of compromise with the person who wants something unusual.
Personally, I wouldn't pay a nickel of the expenses to get this sorted out. IMO, if everything works out with the job your generousity will be more noticed by a bennie of some sort at the end of the job. A concession too soon may make you look weak.
Best of luck.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
When adding anything to property here that requires a permit, which is just about anything, zoning requires a copy of a survey and it must be accurately scaled. There's no restriction on the age of the survey but they break out the rule and check the dimensions of the existing structure vs the setback requirements and the position and setbacks of the proposed addition which must be depicted on the survey copy.
A survey is one of the first things I require from a customer. You, as the contractor, should know what the setback requirements are, where the non-buildable easements are, the percentage of coverage allowed on the property and any height restrictions.
Just in case you need to know: Another sticking point is sewage disposal. I ask if they are on city sewer or septic. City sewer requires no further action BUT if it's a private septic tank and field then the health department gets to stick their fingers in the pie. They require a pumping and inspection by a licensed septic company and a signed form to be submitted verifying a tank and field in good condition. The customer has to take care of that at roughly $250.
That form and a fee is given to the health department and they send out an inspector who takes core samples and verifies the measurements of the field. Currently the fee is $85.
Along with the form and fee a scale drawing of the existing structure, with all rooms dimensioned and labeled, and a scale drawing of the proposed addition must accompany the form.
The health department determines if the current size of the tank and the field, as well as the depth and condition of the field meets their parameters. Although you might not be adding a bedroom (which is the determining factor in sizing a tank and the field, at least in my area) they can and do require the existing system to be brought up to current code BEFORE they will sign off on the permit. You can also be denied a permit if there is a potable water well too close to the septic system and that also applies to the neighboring properties.
This requirement has cost two of my recent customers a complete new septic system but at least they were forewarned and could adjust their finances accordingly.
I added this bit of information just in case anyone has not included disclaimers in their contract or might have similar requirements in their area they are unaware of. Before you get too far into developing a quote or waste a lot of time on a job that might go nowhere it's always a good idea to research the potential deal breakers and the various requirements of the local AHJ's.