I would like to make my own stone/tile floor medallion, and stone/tile border inlay, for setting into 4″ wide beech hardwood flooring (not yet installed). I would not like to pre-assemble the stone/tile pieces, but would like to make the opening for them in the flooring and arrange them in place, then do the setting. The new flooring is being installed over 2″x6″ tongue&groove subflooring, and I’m doing it.
Since wood flooring expands and contracts, I am looking for advice on A)what to use for the substrate for the design pieces, B)adhesives or grouting material for the pieces, C)proper technique and adhesive for joining the set design to the wood flooring, and D)how to finish/waterproof the design area.
I’ve been told that this is not a DIY project, but I love doing this kind of stuff! I have the time, the patience, and the artistry, but not the implementation details – if you have any suggestions for any of the steps A – D, and specific product names, or any technique suggestions/warnings, please let me know 🙂
linda in Corvallis, OR
Replies
Hi Linda,
Someone on this site a long time ago directed me to this site:
http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/index.php
It's been a GREAT site/forum, with LOTS of good advice. I would recommend visiting this site and posting your tile questions there. They also have a library (liberry) that contains information that is critical to tile setting.
Good luck!
Ryan
Thank you Ryan,It looks like a great site - I'm curious if I'll find references for merging the hardwood flooring with the mosaic. I can't believe that people don't regularly add this sort of artistry to their homes; someone must know how to do it!thanks again,
linda
Your main problem is going to be that you are installing the wooden flooring over a subfloor that is great for that, but lousy for tile/stone. That and the fact that tile is not usually the same thickness as wood flooring.
Tile is usually layed over ply and/or some type of cement backer board. It must also be laid over a very stiff subfloor - stiffer than required for wood. Usually 1-1/4" - 1-1/2" of ply. Consequently, a tile floor is usually thicker than a wood floor. You'll need to account for that in your design. Is your wood flooring 3/4"? If so, you may be able to get away with laying 1/2" ply over the sub in the area of the medalion, and 1/4" underlayment under the wood floor. It all depends on the relative thicknesses of your materials, though. A mock-up of your medalion will help you figure your thicknesses.
If you surround your medalion with a wood flooring "frame" isolated from the remainder of the floor (i.e., attached to the sub, not the surrounding flooring), that will minimize wood movement around the medalion to acceptable levels.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Hi Mike,Yes, my wood flooring is 3/4", but the room is a very large great room and it seems a little obtuse to have to "fir up" the entire room by 1/4", or whatever it would take to make the heights match up. Is it foolish to perhaps rout the needed 1/4"-1/2" depth in the tongue and groove subfloor? I know you've said the point is to increase stiffness under the medallion, but won't the surrounding tongue and groove material continue to support the relatively small medallion area without a noticeable change? Then fill in the routed circular area with the 1/2" plywood + tile backerboard. Do you think this would give adequate strength?I will mock up my design and see what kind of height to expect, and I'll certainly "fir up" the whole room if that's really the only acceptable way to do it - it just seems so inefficient...Thanks,
Linda
for the substrate for the tile look into "dietra" it is regularly advertised in f.h.b. and i have used it numerous times with great success. one advantage of this material is it will only "build up" your sub-floor about 1/4" in hieght. this may help match the thickness of your wood floor to your finished tile inlay. good luck.
in the "search " box above i typed in "tile subfloors" and found an article relating to dietra. it is titled "a new way to tile big floors" by tom meehan. this stuff works great for what youre doing as well. check it out.
Joe, you type like Piffin.
Do you mean Ditra?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
i know, i do type awful - its unacceptable. in my own defense, my road runner internet connection is also unacceptable today... or it just plain sucks. yes, ditra, cavin, thanks.
no problem joe.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
How large is your medalion? I was picturing it a foot or two wide. Routing out the subfloor definately will NOT work. The subfloor is not beefy enough as it is. If you flex the tiled section even a little bit, the grout will crack and flake out in short order. Tile floors are specced to be roughly twice as stiff (half the deflection) as normal floors to prevent this. When I have needed to tile floors where I could not to raise them. I accomplished this by cutting out the subfloor, sistering ledgers onto, but 3/4" lower than, the joists and laying 3/4" ply over the ledgers even with the joist tops, and then putting the new subfloor over that. You might be able to use this trick, or some variation of it to even out your tile. For example, you could possibly put extra ply under your medalion from underneath the floor, if you have access, and support it with members attached to the joists. Then, you could probably lay some 1/4" HardiBacker on the sub for your medalion. You'll just have to get a bit "inventive". ;-)
However you do it, it'll be a more work than just installing the wood floor, so do it right from the git-go to avoid having to redo the whole room later because the tile keeps letting go.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike, her subfloor is 2x6 t&g. We don't know the spans, but it could very well be sufficient for a small medallion.
DOH! For some reason I missed that and was thinking 1X. Yep, probably good enough for tile, with an appropriat thickness backer.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Wow,you guys are great!Mike, it's possible that I have a pier pad and post right under the subfloor placement area for the medallion, or that I could arrange the placement to be there - that would add additional support. The medallion has a circumference of 2'3". I am also looking into the Ditra product. I was curious about the "wood floor frame" you mentioned in your first response - I inferred from your words that you meant the flooring pieces just around the medallion (maybe 2"-4" outside the medallion) should be nailed to the substrate material of the medallion, not the 2x6 subfloor. So if I'm using 1/2" plywood as the substrate, either embedded into the subfloor, or on top of the subfloor if I'm firring, I would cut the plywood maybe 4" larger in diameter (or cut it larger and square...)and use short pieces of flooring around the medallion which are attached only to the plywood substrate? And this would allow for expansion and compression in the caulked joint between the medallion-to-flooring interface without affecting the surrounding flooring? Am I thinking about this correctly??Thanks,
LindaPS. what's DOH?
Linda:
In response to your last question first, "Doh!" is a Homer Simpson-ism indicating that I totally screwed up by completely ignoring the obvious and clearly stated facts. ;-( Somehow, in my original response to you, I totally missed the fact that your subfloor was 2X6 -- I've worked on so many old houses where subfloors were 1X6, 1X8 or whatever was on hand at the time, that I just assumed that your subfloor was 1-by even though you clearly stated otherwise. Doh!
Regarding the frame -- IMHO, this simply looks better and helps isolate the medallion from movement of the wood floor that will certainly occur since wood expands and contracts across its grain with changes in moisture content caused by (usually seasonal) changes in the atmosphere. If I was doing this project, I'd start with the medallion by installing a tile backer (probably 1/4" HadiBacker) the size of the medallion plus whatever width you are using for a grout line, and surround it with a "frame" of the flooring material, just like a picture. If your medallion is round, you may need to get this frame custom made since it'll need to be made from probably 6 to 8 pieces that start out wider than your flooring strips to account for cutting the curve. I'd fasten that frame to the subfloor securely -- some glue here might be a good idea. Then I'd install the tile. Mask the "frame" so you don't get it full of thinset and grout. Personally, I wouldn't bother using Ditra -- it's a great product for when you are installing tile over concrete or anything that may move laterally or crack under the tile, but your floor is not likely to do so, and the tile backer will be a single sheet of either cement board or something like Hardi Backer (a fiber cement material that is very stable), so an isolation membrane is overkill IMHO. Now that I understand your subfloor, I don't think you want to use the 1/2" ply. I've installed tile over ply in the past and have had good results, but many don't like to do this. I've pretty much switched to using HardiBacker to avoid problems with the tile that swelling of plywood can cause if it gets damp in the future.
Based on the information that I previously overlooked, I don't think you'll need to adjust the subfloor height or worry about it not being strong enough. Unless you're using some pretty thick tile, you should be able to get your tile backer, thinset and tile in the 3/4" height of your wood flooring, using 1/4" HardiBacker and allowing 1/2" for the thinset and tile.
After the medallion is installed, install the wood floor. (If the medallion is round, that will present some interesting challenges cutting in around it!) It will not be fastened to the frame and if you don't make the floor too tight the frame, the frame should not move a lot even if the floor moves a normal amount.
Even if you use a frame, you will still be faced with the transitional joint between the medallion and the frame. Others have suggested sanded caulk for this joint as opposed to grout. That will work and I ain't sayin' don't do it, but I just use grout (w/ latex additive) for this type of joint. I've never been able to get caulk to match the grout and I'm less bothered by a tiny crack between the wood and grout (that will almost certainly develop sooner or later) than mis-matched caulk. Think about all the tile fireplace hearths you've seen and ask yourself if you've been bothered by the crack between the wood floor and the tile. In my case, it's never bothered me.
Then comes the fun part -- unless your flooring is prefinished, you're going to have to be pretty careful sanding and finishing the floor. A lot of careful hand sanding and finishing around the medallion.
Good luck!
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Hi Mike,Just wanted to thank you and all the other folks for your time and consideration of my project. I was able to get a hold of an installation guide from a medallion manufacturer (OshKosh), and I will compare its content with your suggested procedure and the other suggestions I received, and come up with a final installation method. Your thoughts have been very helpful - maybe in a couple of months I'll be able to post some pictures!This has been a wonderful first experience with this online forum -
Thank you everyone!Linda
Welcome. Be sure to take a lot of progress pics. Before, during and after. Post 'em as you go and we'll all get to gripe about what you're doin' wrong! ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
missed that and was thinking 1X. Yep, probably good enough for tile, with an appropriat thickness backer
Easy to do, isn't it?
I'm having this nagging idea, though, that the "small" medalion might could be 3-4', too (that'd be small in a 18-20'x22-24' great room).
I'd be inclined to removing the subfloor entire, and then going to a half-spaced "transverse" floor in the medalion area. So, if the floors were, oh, 2x8 @ 16, I might frame the medalion area with 2x6 @ 8, which would allow an inset subfloor which would stiffen up nicely.
Of course, it might be easier to use beefed-up ply on the bottom of the floor joists to add the diaphram stiffness that would be desireable. But, that's just thinking out louOccupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Mike Hennesey gives good advice. One other thing comes to mind, the joint where wood meets tile. Because of differential movement of materials and the possibility of grout cracking as a result, I'd be inclined to use sanded caulk matching your grout and keep the joint as narrow as possible.
PJ
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
I would not use grout at any tile to wood junction. It would only cause cracking. Most grout manufacturers have caulking that color matches their grout. Use that where any tile meats a different substance.
Ryan
In otherwords, what Peter said.
Day just started and I'm already too tired to read very well!
Ryan
You'll need to frame the area to be tiled with a metal tile transition strip, Schulter makes such a productl. It goes down before any tile is set and keeps tile grout from contacting wood.
Or you could just use blue tape and cut it out after the grouting/caulking.
Hi Brickie,After reading your advice, I went back and looked at a number of pre-made medallions and saw that some of the producers used the metal transition strip and some did not. I'm going to use an appropriate caulk to join my medallion to the flooring, so I will look into this Schulter product you've suggested - I imagine the caulk would adhere to the metal - a metal strip around the grout and stone would certainly make the construction of the medallion simpler! Thanks for this suggestion!Linda
Have you thought about ditching the tile inlay idea and going with a wood inlay? You could get different shapes of wood the same thickness as the floor and just glue them in? Coming from me this is going to sound weird but I just think a tile inlay in the middle of a wood floor is going to look weird...
Just to qualify that here's a pic of a mosic inlay we did at our last house...
View Image
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Edited 8/17/2007 11:15 pm by madmadscientist
Hi Daniel,Violet fire - it's really cool! Doesn't seem very victorian though...
Actually, I've seen two very beautiful stone/tile inlays in wood floors; they are what have inspired me. I am already searching out granite and marble pieces for the design, so it won't be tile, it'll be done in stone. I am looking at using patterned wood borders that are purchased though, for some of my floor areas.
To solve the substrate issue, you might remove the subfloor at the tiled location(s), cleat the sides of the joists and install subflooring flush with the top of the joists. Backerboard or plywood on top of this, then Ditra, then Tile.
Linda,
Welcome to Breaktime, I know you'll enjoy it.
Issues I see:
2x6 subfloor is great.
The floor joists still needs to provide an L/720 stiffness.
Floors are dry areas, you might be able to mastic the tile/stone to wood.
With 3/4" flooring, 1/4" substrate, Ditra, 1/8" grout, and 3/8" tile, the medalian should be flush with the flooring.
1/4" gap between tile and wood flooring, filled with flexible color matched sanded caulk.
We'll miss you, but JohnBridge is THE place for tile answers.
SamT