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Discussion Forum

DIY variation on hanging 5/8″ lid

johnnyd | Posted in Construction Techniques on December 15, 2003 06:45am

I believe that the when the pros hang ceiling sheetrock, once the rock is placed and held up, they start fastening in the center and go out to the edges, and they nail or screw the whole sheet before placing the next (right or wrong?).  I think this results in less paper tearing around the screw heads in the field because the rock is already tight in the middle,  more uniform seams, and probably more square feet covered per hour.

In my DIY variation, I plan to use a lift with an inexperienced friend to help me get the 4X12 sheets of 5/8″s on the lift.  These sheets will be screwed to the bottom chord of trusses 2′ on center.  Regular horizontal 8′ ceilings. Since I don’t want the helper to stand around while I take my time screwing the rock up, (I’m inexperienced enough to have to draw lines where the supports are so I don’t miss in the field, and I need to be careful to not rip the paper face) I’d rather just tack each sheet up with a minimum of screws and get on with the next one…then I can go back later and take my time finishing up.

Question is, how important is it to start in the center and work out to the edges? It’s much easier to hit the support on the edge for the initial fasteners.  If I press the sheets up tight with the lift, will edge fastening suffice until I get back to the middle? Will a screw every 2′ on the edges be enough to hold a sheet for a day or two. 

Also, do you put the screw in the tapered part of the edge or out in the full thickness…or does it even matter? 

I know about leaving 24″ (or is it 18″) or so in from the wall unscrewed and supporting the edges with the vertical rock to help prevent corner cracking later as the trusses expand and contract. 

Would it be worth the $ to invest in a sheetrock screw drill for this 1200 sq foot project?

I suppose I could draw a line every 2′ on the sheets BEFORE I place them.  Then I could hit the center every time.

How about it, pros?  Appreciate your advice…

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Replies

  1. User avater
    BossHog | Dec 15, 2003 07:20pm | #1

    Well, I ain't a pro. But I've hung quite a bit.

    I've never seen anyone screw from the center out. Don't know why you'd do that.

    I like to use a lift, and put 6 or 8 screws around the edge. Then move on to the next sheet and worry about screwing it later. It's a lot easier with the lift out of the way.

    I'll never again hang drywall without a drywall screwgun. Once you've used one everything else seems too slow.

    I never draw lines. After you screw a few sheets you'll get a better feel for where the trusses are. If you get in a bind, have a tape on your pocket and you can measure over from the edge of the sheet and find the truss.

    I always put the screws on the edges as far away from the edge as I can, while keeping in the tapered area. You're going to cover that opart with mud anyway - No sense making more work by putting the screws in the flat area.

    You mention holding screws back from interior walls. There's an old thread about Truss uplift that has quite a bit of info about that.

    The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.

    1. User avater
      johnnyd | Dec 15, 2003 07:28pm | #2

      I've never seen anyone screw from the center out. Don't know why you'd do that.

      Maybe from the stories I've heard about gorilla-type rockers who wear a wool watch cap, hustle the sheet up by themselves, hold in place with thier head while they tap a couple of nails in the center, then work out from there.

      Some 5/8" I did last year seemed to bow down in the center after having been initally screwed in the edges....made it hard to screw the center without ripping the paper around the screw head, 'cause the sheet wasn't up tight so you had to both draw it up and fasten it with the screw.  Maybe because I didn't draw it up with the lift.

      1. User avater
        Longhair | Dec 15, 2003 07:53pm | #3

        sounds like your paying the helper 3.50 an hour and worried your gettin ripped off to me

        1. User avater
          johnnyd | Dec 15, 2003 07:58pm | #4

          I'm not paying him anything...just a friend who owes me a few hours after I helped him wire a ceiling fan last year.  This is a do-it-yourself project...different rules than by-the-hour dollar deals, but we hope for the same results.

          1. DaveRicheson | Dec 15, 2003 10:44pm | #5

            Two inexperienced guys hanging 5/8" dw with a dw lift  should hang it out in about 10 to 12 hours, assuming you don't have a ton of cuts to make. Rent two screw guns, and rock on brother! Pin the board up with the lift, lock the scew gun trigger on and feed screws as fast as you can. If you are not working off of stilts, then rent a small scafold or bench to take you to a comfortable working heigth. Screw the whole sheet off before moving to the next one. You don't save much time going back and forth, and if you are using glue, you may not get a good bond without  finishing each sheet.

            1200sf would be between 25 and 28 sheets of 4x12, allowing only 10% waste. DW and I rocked my shop ceiling with 4x10-5/8 board in 12 hours, and it is a 10"ceiling. I did all the lifting to the dw lift. I have been doing this stuff for almost 30 years, this was her first experience with a dw ceiling.

            Good luck,

            Dave

          2. User avater
            johnnyd | Dec 15, 2003 11:07pm | #7

            Thanks guys...this is why I posted the questions...to get alternatives from people who really know.

            One other question...having never actually used a screw gun...just those cheesy attachments for a regular drill that are supposed to ratchet as soon as the screw sinks just the right amount into the paper face.  After a few sheets they don't work so good and I've ended up just using the regular drill and "touch".  End up with way too many screws either not countersunk or right through the paper.  Why are the screw guns so great? Do they work by sensing the torque? Like a click stop torque wrench, or what?

            Problem is that not all the trusses or studs are the same density, so IF the screw guns work on amount of torque, they'll sink the screw too far in on, say, a soft spruce stud, and leave it out on a nasty old piece of fir.  Or do they have a really good ratchet that senses screw head depth in relation to the paper face?  So you really can just lock it on and go for it?

          3. User avater
            BossHog | Dec 15, 2003 11:25pm | #9

            " Why are the screw guns so great? Do they work by sensing the torque?"

            Nope - They have a DEPTH stop built into the nose piece. You just push on it, and it buzzes the thing in to the right depth.

            It takes a while to get used to holding it square to the drywall. But I'd be surprised if you weren't happy with it once you try it.We are members of a great body... We must consider that we were born for the good of the whole. [Lucius Annaeus Seneca, 60 A.D.]

          4. toolbear | Dec 16, 2003 08:38am | #21

            CHOICE OF TOOLS...

            FWIW -  On this Habitat/Lennar Blitz we just finished, the gun of choice for the steel framers and the rockers was the DeWalt - usually with a custom 50 or 100' cord.

            I tried my Makita impact driver.  No way.  The drywall gun was much better at that work.  On steel studs they were driving screws much faster than I can nail a stud.  A few seconds and they were on to the next screw. 

          5. KRettger | Dec 15, 2003 11:33pm | #10

            Just set the depth so each screw is slightly countersunk and go for it. Remember when you go to screw the rock with a screw gun don't just push the gun. Lock the trigger down and use a motion somewhere between a shove and a punch. Watch the screw as you do this and quickly shove/punch the gun in a straight line with the screw. It may take a few tries to get it down, but once you do you'll find you are "dancing like a butterfly, and stinging like a bee".

            Oh yea, almost forgot. When you are reaching real far or are "toenailing" at an angle remember to set the depth on your nosecone a little deeper. The gun doesn't use torque to set the screw. What happens it once the screw sinks into rock to a certain level the screw bit tip no longer fully engages the screw head and hence stops screwing in the screw. But when screwing at a big angle this can have the effect of leaving an exposed screw. So when making the big reach etc. give a few extra clicks to the nose cone to give you a little extra depth.

            Have fun.

            Cork in Chicago

          6. KRettger | Dec 15, 2003 11:21pm | #8

            Hey johnnyd,

            I've never used one of those lifts but I have hung thousands of sheets of drywall both commerical and residential.

            The first thing to remember in hanging drywall is DON'T FIGHT THE DRYWALL!!

            Anything you can do to make installing the drywall easier is fair game. If this means using a lift- go for it. Most importantly remember that once you glomp onto the drywall and start moving it around and go to nail or screw it off you want to be "poetry in motion". No wasted movements, no hesitation, no second guessing, no trying to figure out were to put nail or screw, JUST NAIL OR SCREW IT NOW!!

            Preplan your every move. Start with layout. Don't run your board parallel to the joists. Lay your drywall out so the "butt cut", (4 ft. wide end of board), lands on a joist. Start your initial run if possible off of an outside wall. They are usually more true and square than an interior wall. Preposition where you are going to stack your rock so it won't get in your way while you are hanging it.

            When you and your "helper" go to put a sheet of drywall on the lift, work as a TEAM. Make sure both of you start to lift the rock together, watch each other for clues as to what the other person is doing and expecting, and keep a feel for the rock itself. You should be able to feel which way the other person is lifting, shoving, or pushing, the rock, go with him, don't fight him. Work as a team, or you dang sure will end up wearing yourselves out real fast, start swearing at each other, punching each other, taking forever to do it, and tear hell out of your backs, the drywall, and any friendship.

            You admititly aren't a drywaller so don't get fancy and try to screw the joists off without having a line or mark. Go ahead and take the 30 to 60 seconds and draw the lines on the rock to show you where to screw the drywall across the field. Much better to take the time while rock is laying on the floor, than to get it over your head, and start swearing and cussing cause you keep missing the joists with your screws.

            Keep your joints tight. Remember tight is right. Slightly overcut any penetrations so the rock goes up without a fight. Screw the perimeter joint every 10 to 12 inches. Screw pattern across the field should be every 12 to 16 inches. Spend the few bucks to rent a couple of drywall screw guns. BOTH you and your "helper" should be screwing the rock. Hit the perimeter first, and then fill in the field. Get as much screwed off as possible on the first attempt. When you go to layout , measure, mark, and cut the next sheet of rock, have your "helper" stay busy up on his ladder screwing off anything not already screwed. I'm assuming you have two good ladders, if not rent them. Don't mess around with some old rickety wooden ladder, use good ones or make sure you get good accident and health policy before you start.

            I believe you said you were going to use 12' long drywall. Make sure you have some way to stock the job with something so long. Sometimes it's a real killer to get 12's into a house and room. If that's going to be a big headache, go ahead and use 10's or 8's.

            Good luck. Remember to have lot's of patience. Don't hurt yourself or your "helper".

            Have FUN !!

            Cork in Chicago

          7. User avater
            johnnyd | Dec 15, 2003 11:46pm | #11

            Yep, got the ladders and also some really good sawhorses that are solid, don't tip either way and are the right hieght.  Used them to screw rock to 9' ceilings with a little stretch...should be perfect for 8'.

            You already anticipated and answered some other questions I had, like stocking the rooms with rock...think I'll go out tonight and after I finish hanging the 6 mil poly, go through the rooms (two smallish bedrooms, a 6X9 bathroom, 10X12 4-season porch, 6X7 laundry room, 6X16 mudroom, and 24X18 kitchen/dining room, hallway and a couple of closets).  Probably can get by better with an assortment of 8's, 10's , and 12's.

            Since your reply is so detailed...mind expanding on exactly the technique used to mark and cut out for light boxes with one of those routers (roto-zip type tools)?  Like where you put the rock up without cutting first and then route out later? Since I'm doing the electrical too, what steps should I take with the wires in the boxes so I don't mangle them with the zip tool?

            Thanks again, I'll let you know how it turns out.  Probably will do it over a long New Years' Day weekend.

          8. KRettger | Dec 16, 2003 12:49am | #12

            johnnyd,

            I respectfully suggest you are cruising for a bruising by trying to use the roto zip.

            To use a roto zip WITHOUT tearing hell out of boxes, cans, cables, vents, wire, etc. takes "technique". In theory what you do is just take a measurement of where the electric box is located. Then just mark an X on the rock where the box is located. Then when you have the rock on the ceiling you leave off the screws near the box. Then grab the rotozip and penetrate the rock at the center of the X. Then move the bit through the rock sideways till you feel the bit  LIGHTLY hit the side of the box. Then you back out a little bit and reinsert the bit all the way in on the outside of the box. Then lightly holding the bit against the box cut in a counter clockwise direction all the way around the box.

            Before you try this make sure you stuff all the wiring deep up inside the box. Also when you are just starting to use a rotozip it is REAL EASY to cut right through the box. You've got to use a steady but light touch.

            My opinion, countered by many, is that a rotozip doesn't save you much time. Usually the only time I would use one, (got three different types), is when hanging a real tough sheet that is hard to hang onto, that is in an area WAY out of square making it hard to cut a penetration dead center on, but that the penetration HAS to be just perfect or it won't cover in the finish and painting phase.

            Two other uses: In kitchen or utility rooms where a wall may have A WHOLE BUNCH of boxes per sheet of drywall, or on a radius soffit or furdown. Now in those situations I agree a rotozip saves a lot of time and sometimes grief.

            Bit the bullet bubba and cut those boxes in by hand. Or I swear by the Almighty you sooner rather than latter are going to be blowing and going thinking WOW THIS PUPPY CUTS THESE BABYS OUT FAST, and plop, the chunk of drywall you just cut out will drop out to the ground, you'll blow the monstrous amount of dust these things generate out of your face, and when the dust finally does settle enough for you to be able to see again, you'll then drop a load in your pants when you realize you just massacred the box and wires inside it. This WILL  happen to you. Be very, very, afraid.

            Last but not least. If cutting with one of these is just "way to cool" to resist using, make sure you wear a dust mask, and remember these little mammas blow MASSIVE amounts off dust. If this is an occupied dwelling you better figure out a way to seal off the work area, or the lady of the house is going to give you a free trip to the moon.

            Good Luck, Have Fun,

            Cork in Chicago 

          9. User avater
            johnnyd | Dec 16, 2003 12:58am | #13

            Thanks for the heads up. 

            I did have some luck on a project last winter where I used the "X" marking technique, left some screws out, and just used a hand drywall saw to carefully cut on the outside of the boxes after the rock was up, then screwed it off closer to the box. But that was 1/2" on the walls.

            Well, there are two or three light boxes per a 'couple of the sheets in the kitchen. Think I'll try the drywall saw technique on one, go back to the sheetrock square and measurement mumbling if it doesn't work.

          10. davidmeiland | Dec 16, 2003 04:22am | #17

            Cork, great posts, makes me wanna hang some freaking rock!

          11. KRettger | Dec 16, 2003 06:47am | #20

            Hey davidmeiland,

            You are a true masochist if you want to go hang drywall.

            In one of the earlier posts in this thread someone mentioned "gorilla types wearing wool caps" who hang rock with their heads. Dang, this guy must have seen me at work one day.

            The thing you have to remember about hanging drywall is that once you get a few techniques down cold you can really pick up your speed and hang a lot of rock per day. The problem with that is you are hanging a lot of rock all day long, everyday of the work week.

            This rapidly turns into a mind numbing body breaking dead end deal. In the trades rockers don't make near as much as the other trades. Even if you are in a union, those most likely to be hanging the rock are those just starting out and not making as much as a full journeyman or foreman.

            To top that off it is dang hard on your body. Hanging rock for a living is a job for young men. I'm 48 years old and if I hang rock for more than 2 or 3 days I feel it in my joints, bones, WHOLE BODY.

            I've just finished installing commercial hardware on about 350 doors in a high dollar condo. I sit my butt down on a bucket, and use my brains, and hands to do the work, then hit the next door. Got a break from that in mortising catches in about 30 interior shutters imported from Italy in a 10 million dollar house. A lot easier than hanging rock.

            Tomorrow I go and bang up some board, case and base the same condos I installed door hardware on. Then buildup and case windows, etc. Doing this stuff is a lot more interesting than drywall, a lot easier on the body, and by the way it pays a lot more.

            Go for a trade that has a future for your mind, body, and wallet, and leave the drywall to the young guys just getting into the trades.

            With respect,

            Cork in Chicago.

          12. DaveRicheson | Dec 16, 2003 01:54pm | #23

            Couldn't agree with you more.

            Everything you have advised is sound. Two experienced hangers that have worked together a few days can hang a lot  more board without a lift than they can with a lift. The lifts have the advantage on vaulted ceiling and just about anything over 9' IMHO.

            I bought a lift b/c I am going to hang and finish the board in my house. Afte I am done with the house, it will most likely be sold. Might even sell the stilts then too. At nearly 57, hanging d/w is becoming one of my least favorite jobs. I'll gladly give it to the young bucks.

            Dave

          13. User avater
            JeffBuck | Dec 16, 2003 08:39pm | #26

            I'll gladly give it to the young "bucks."

            sorry ...

            but at 36 ... I'm old enough to know to sub it out too!

            Hey guys ... something we all agree on ... we all hate drywall.

            Jeff

            Buck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

                 Artistry in Carpentry                

          14. Mooney | Dec 21, 2003 05:57pm | #37

            Hey guys ... something we all agree on ... we all hate drywall.

            Wait a minute Buck. I like to tape it . I will have to give up hanging it .

            Tim Mooney

          15. User avater
            JeffBuck | Dec 23, 2003 02:53am | #50

            Yer Crazy Men!

            Crazy I tell ya!!

            was tempted to say ... "that's just goofy".....

            JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

                 Artistry in Carpentry                

          16. davidmeiland | Dec 16, 2003 08:07pm | #25

            "You are a true masochist if you want to go hang drywall."

            Cork, I've hung plenty of it and yeah I really don't want to do any more. I was just liking your enthusiasm there!

          17. KRettger | Dec 16, 2003 08:45pm | #27

            Hey davidmeiland,

            It wasn't till I finished posting a reply to your message when I finally got your humor. I must be brain dulled from hanging too much rock. Maybe holding up those sheets with my head has finally taken its toll on my old nogin.

            Stay away from that drywall my friend.

            Cork in Chicago

          18. User avater
            johnnyd | Dec 16, 2003 09:17pm | #28

            Just when I was getting all excited about it.

            I'm 55, that's why the lift.

            Now that you've convinced my to get or rent a drywall screw drill, what kind do ya'll use?

            Just looked at a Makita (3824 i think).  Fits my hand good, is light, 6.5 amps, variable 0-4500 rpm.  ~$85 at the regional big box.  Lighter than the Hitachi next to it. At $85 why bother with renting? I've got the walls to do too, down the road.

            I heard dewalt is the defacto standard..worth looking at?

          19. DaveRicheson | Dec 16, 2003 10:58pm | #29

            I have a Milwaukee that is 20+ years old, and an older Skill, probably 25+ years. Don't know anything about the Dewalts.

            Dave

          20. calvin | Dec 17, 2003 12:05am | #33

            Dave, when that 20+ yr Milwaukee craps out, give me a call.  I'll parts it out with mine.  I'll do the same...............tho I think they just won't die.  Would you include the detachable 25/50' cord with it.  Don't worry about the box.  Thanks.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

            Quittin' Time

          21. DaveRicheson | Dec 21, 2003 08:38am | #36

            I bought the Milwaukee about five years after I bought the old Skill, thinking it was in its' last days. Replaced the triggers in both  once, and they just won't die. I also have a Milwaukee screw gun for metal building work that runs at the slower rpm. Same life out of it as the dw screw gun.

            Dave

          22. KRettger | Dec 16, 2003 11:27pm | #30

            I use a Dewalt, also use a Dewalt decking gun when doing heavy gauge steel studs. But some of my buddies at work have Makita drywall screw guns and I like them. I have big "chunky" type hands and the little Makita guns fit real nice in them and when I tried them out I liked them.

            Make sure you read the posts on this thread by both Piffin and Boss Hogg. Both are right on the money.

            Have fun hanging that rock,

            Cork in Chicago

          23. User avater
            johnnyd | Dec 16, 2003 11:36pm | #31

            Yeah, the Makita just feels right..especially keeping in mind what Piffin said, that you're really pushing with the heel of your hand.

            Thanks again, I'll let you know how it turns out.  Got to get this thing wired and inspected first!

          24. DocDM | Dec 21, 2003 08:07am | #35

            especially keeping in mind what Piffin said, that you're really pushing with the heel of your hand.

            JD, Check Piffin's post again. What you are pushing with is the "web" of your hand - the area between the first two fingers and the thumb. Notice the indents/finger tracts along the top of the drivers. Most folks never "use" them on a regular drill/driver, holding them by the handle instead. But as Piffin sez, gotta line it all up right to get the screws in fast and straight. BTW, I use the DeWalt.

            DocA shortcut is the longest distance between two points.

          25. User avater
            BossHog | Dec 16, 2003 11:52pm | #32

            "I heard dewalt is the defacto standard..worth looking at?"

            Around here, dewalt is looked at as a tool for weekenders. But I guess that's what you are......................(-:

            I paid about $100 for a Milwaukee. I really like it, but would also admit it's the only one I've used.

            They make dedicated drywall screw guns, and one called a "remodelers" screw gun, which only turns at about 2,500 RPM max. I've heard that you can use the "remodeling" version for driving deck screws with it's slower speed. But I've never tried one out.

            I did try driving 2 1/2" deck screws with my drywall gun, and it twisted them off in short order.It doesn't matter if you fall down, as long as you pick up something from the floor while you get up.

          26. User avater
            johnnyd | Dec 17, 2003 12:08am | #34

            Yeah, weekender AND almost every night.

            I noticed that two drywall guns would sit along side each other at the store, same brand, almost the same price, one with 2500 rpm and one with 4500rpm...so maybe if I want to stretch my investment out a bit I should get the lower RPM.  After all, I'm not getting paid by the sheet.

            Edited 12/16/2003 4:14:56 PM ET by johnnyd

          27. User avater
            BossHog | Dec 16, 2003 04:36am | #18

            I'm not as down on rotozips as you are.

            If I'm cutting around plastic boxes, I cut a round hole in the center of the box first - An inch or a little bigger in diameter.

            Then I can stick my finger in there and feel around to find the edges. Makes it a lot easier to figure out where they're at.

            I can cut around plastic boxes fairly well, one I get the "feel" of the tool. But I generally make a mess of at least one box before I feel comfortable doing it.

            I've never messed up a box so bad that I had to replace it, though.Sharks are as tough as those football fans who take their shirts off during games in Chicago in January, only more intelligent. [Dave Barry]

          28. KRettger | Dec 16, 2003 06:29am | #19

            Hey Boss Hogg,

            Not really down on rotozips (hey after all I got three of them), but you really do need a feel for them if you know what I mean.

            Also I've seen men use them who were faster at them then me, but here we are talking about someone who is not used to them. Just wanted to be conservative in my comments so the fellow doesn't end up having to replace half the electric system in his ceilings.

            Have a good one.

            Cork in Chicago

          29. CarpenterPJE | Dec 16, 2003 01:28pm | #22

            Cork

            With the roto zip I only use the bits with the pilot ends & don't chew up plastic boxes.

            I've seen guys use the bits with no pilot & got some by mistake, Hell, you can cut the house in half with one of those.

            PJE

          30. bill_1010 | Dec 16, 2003 01:49am | #15

            if youre using plastic boxes **dont** rotozip in place.  Go ahead and rent a screw gun for drywall.  Your helper can lace up the edges of the rock while you do the field.  Or you could let him/her take the t-square and mark studs for you to screw. Or let him measure off the boxes for the next sheet.

            As for the lift, dont rent anything but a tel-pro.  Biljax lift sucks bigtime, poorly designed and a pain to deal with.  the telpro can be used on walls as well.  

            Personally i never line up sheets so they butt on studs.  90% of the time they never line up exact due to warped studs or slightly off plumb from plate to plate. Instead i use a board to splice them together on the back side.  2x4 for non insulating walls and 1x stock on insulating walls.  studs never line up and by doing this your saving one measurment and one cut.  Plus youre giving more area to attach a screw to.  The downside is dont use a backer in a possible high impact area, however its still a strong joint.  

            Pick up taunton's DRYWALL book if you need reference.  since yorue hanging it im assuming youre finishing it too since its DIY.   Its a nice resource to have.

          31. Piffin | Dec 16, 2003 04:14am | #16

            I wanted to confirm your need to rent or buy drywall screw guns. Worth hhaving because they can be used for other screwing too.

            What nobody hasd mentioned in technique for the guns ( I don't think so anyway) is that you don't hold it by the handle. You palm it so the butt of the gun is in your palm and you ring finger is most likely the one in line with the trigger. This way the force you apply is in straight line from elbow, through wrist, directly in line withthe armature and bit into the screw. Makes for a no-wobble direct-drive..

            Excellence is its own reward!

          32. User avater
            johnnyd | Dec 16, 2003 04:45pm | #24

            Thanks, Piffen.  I'll try that.  Nice thing about DIY work, is that I can justify buying tools that will have many other uses down the road, write it off against what I'm saving by not subbing some of the jobs out.  The corded Milwuakee I bought a few weeks ago has already paid for itself...goes through double plates with a 1 1/8" spade bit like butter.

            Edited 12/16/2003 8:53:46 AM ET by johnnyd

          33. User avater
            johnnyd | Feb 03, 2004 06:27pm | #61

            OK, cork, so the lid is on, attic and walls are well insulated and sealed, now I can work in there w/o long underwear as temp furnace  now just coasts along at 50F while it's below zero outside. 

            Thanks for your advice and encouragement.

            So now I can take my time hanging rock on the walls.  Remember, this is DIY and not costing X$ per hour.

            Any tips on how to wrestle 1/2" X 12' sheets solo?  I'm thinking I will temporarily screw a 2X4 ledger at a bit below 48" from ceiling.  OOmph the the sheet up on that, and then shim the sheet so it fits up tight against the upper corner, shoot a 'couple of screws into the top plate, then mark my studs and screw the sheet off.  OR, I'm tall enough so I can reach up to the plate with one hand on the gun while holding the sheet up with the other, once I get it up and close.

            Or should I really get help for the top sheets?  I don't want to fall into the trap of hanging 8' sheets horizontally. Tapers don't like it, and I think a horizontally taped seam "disappears" much faster than a vertical.  Especially if you can get even butt joints.

            Bottom sheets will be easy...slide in place then stand on one end of a flat bar while the other levers the sheet up tight.

            Any other advice from the pros here?

          34. ccal | Feb 03, 2004 07:39pm | #62

            Rent the lift again, cheaper than a helper. It will work fine on the walls. 12 footers are not that hard to lift by yourself, tilt one end up then get in the middle and sit it on the lift. Set all the upper pieces first and you have less time with the lift.

          35. User avater
            johnnyd | Feb 03, 2004 07:55pm | #63

            Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think the lift I was using had a provision for stright upright vertical.  The rack tilts down at about 45 degrees so you can get the sheet on, then tilts over to raise the sheet up flat to the ceiling.  How would this work for the walls?

          36. ccal | Feb 03, 2004 08:16pm | #64

            The one I have used tilt horizontal for walls as well. I think the brand was telpro. You have to flip the catch to tilt it so you might have missed it.

          37. bill_1010 | Feb 03, 2004 09:34pm | #65

            telpro lifts will do walls. 

          38. User avater
            johnnyd | Feb 03, 2004 09:42pm | #66

            I think that's what this one is...I'll take another look.

            Thanks, ALL

          39. Mugsy | Feb 04, 2004 07:49pm | #68

            Having done 12 footers by myself with and without a lift, I'll say this.  It can be done without the lift, but WHY? Unless you're talking a sheet or 2, absolutely spring the few bucks for the lift. My local rental yard rents lifts that will tilt for walls and ones that will not. Make sure you rent the correct one.

            If you're really that concerned with rental fees, just tack all the upper sheets up with a few screws and come back to finish securing later. You should be able to hang many many sheets quickly this way. Leave the half sheet sections till later too. Anything less than 8 feet can easily be hung solo without a lift.

          40. User avater
            johnnyd | Feb 04, 2004 08:01pm | #69

            Hey, thanks for your response.  The one I used for the ceiling I rented from a neighbor, I don't think it tilts for walls.  I'm a good 3/4 hour away from nearest rental place.  Had planned on doing this over a few evenings...a few sheets per evening.  Logistically much easier.  But yeah, I'll probably go with the rental route and put the long ones up quick.

          41. pghdan | Feb 06, 2004 06:11pm | #70

            I own a telpro and have hung alot of both walls and ceilings by myself.  If you can screw in an 8 foot ceiling standing on the floor you should have no problem lifting a 12 foot 1/2'' piece of drywall onto the lift yourself.  I am only 5'7" and have on the rare occasion loaded 16' 5/8" drywall on the lift myself.  The biggest problem is having the lift roll back as you are trying to load it.  Make sure the telpro's brake is on the floor.  So go and hang it by yourself.  Also consider buying a telpro if you plan on hanging a lot of drywall  or even a little drywall on numerous occasions.  It will save you a lot of trips to the rental center.  I've owned mine for probably 9 years now and love it.

          42. User avater
            johnnyd | Feb 06, 2004 06:33pm | #71

            Thanks for the input...

            So the routine on hanging the top wall sheet is  ? : 

            Get the measured and trimmed sheet up on the hooks

            Roll the lift up close so that two of the three wheels are touching the bottom plate

            Roll lift/nudge sheet so the end of the board is snug up against either the corner or the adjoining sheet butt

            Set floor brake

            Tip top of sheet up against studs

            Crank up so top of sheet is pushing up against ceiling rock corner

            Shoot a few screws through rock into top plate

            Crank down and roll lift back, rock slaps up against studs, screw it off

            Having never seen this done, I was thinking the lift would allow you to get the sheet totally vertical and tight to the studs before any screws, but the telpros I've looked at just stay at the sheet load position.  Do you have any trouble with those first screws into the top plate ripping through the paper 'cause you still have the sheet at a slight angle away from the wall?

            Just having a hard time visualizing this.

          43. pghdan | Feb 06, 2004 07:55pm | #72

            What you described is pretty much how it's done.  I must admit though that almost all of the walls I've hung have been on older houses that were balloon framed and therefore there was no bottom plate.  Therefore I was able to get the lift a little bit closer to the wall by placing the wheels inbetween studs.  As you say with a bottom plate the board is at a little bit of an angle so just put some screws in the very top and then let the lift down.  You're right that sometimes the top screws will tear through a little bit and furthermore its not uncommon for the board to shift down ever so slightly.  This is easily taken care of by pushing up on the bottom of the board while placing a couple of screws along the bottom edge.  I normally end up redoing the screws along the top of the drywall if they have torn out the paper which is no big deal because any extra holes will be covered be the corner tape and finishing.  One final extra piece of advice since I am assuming you will be finishing all this drywall to.  Take the time to cut out any broken edges or bad tears before attempting to apply any finish.  If the hole created is big enough slide a piece of scrap wood in behind and screw through the drywall into it.  If you don't remove broken edges, bad tears or places where the drywall core has been pulverized beneath seemingly intact paperface these defects will just show up in your finished product.  Hope this helps!

          44. User avater
            BossHog | Feb 06, 2004 09:07pm | #73

            One of the drywall lifts I rented had adjustable legs. The 2 in "front" could be speard out farther, allowing the unit to slide in closer to the wall.

            Don't recall if it went in far enough to alow the lift to get right against the wall. But it got pretty close.My identity lies in not knowing who I am

          45. User avater
            johnnyd | Feb 06, 2004 10:05pm | #74

            That's the way the telpro that I have access to works, I think.  But you did have to make sure the little two-legged lock at the bottom of the central column was locked when you speared the legs out, right?  I think you spear the legs out all the way back to fold up the bottom unit for transport or moving to the next room.

          46. User avater
            BossHog | Feb 06, 2004 10:22pm | #75

            That's pretty much the way I remember it working.Your every voter, as surely as your chief magistrate, exercises a public trust [Grover Cleveland, 1885]

          47. User avater
            johnnyd | Feb 06, 2004 10:33pm | #76

            Rock on....

          48. ClaysWorld | Feb 07, 2004 12:56am | #77

            have you got that rock up yet ? if not let me give you a way that I use with out a lift, well i do lift it. Measure down from ceiling 48" mark/ measure up to mark/ add 1" make 2 dead man Tees with top out of 2x and leg out of 2x. Lean on wall and leave enough room for you to lean up against wall and not disturb dead men. Lift rock up to wall/lay it on wall and slide it up to the dead men stop lean on sheetrock and take a breath and say wow only 40 more sheets to go. Catch your breath/ kick the dead man till its tight /kick the other and get screwy. Works for me. Take the time to make for clear paths and no tripping stuff to F you up.

            Thats the song played by the one man band.

             Clay

          49. User avater
            johnnyd | Feb 07, 2004 01:07am | #78

            I think I might try that...with my back brace on sinched down so tight I can hardly take that breath.

          50. ClaysWorld | Feb 07, 2004 01:14am | #79

            Half the job to make it work is to get all the crap cleared out of the way so your not trippin on stuff while balancing the 12 footer.

             Clay

          51. User avater
            BossHog | Feb 03, 2004 11:10pm | #67

            "Or should I really get help for the top sheets?"

            I would. The 1/2" sheets snap in half pretty easily if you aren't careful when picking them up.

            Using the lift on the walls isn't a bad idea, but you still have to pick the sheets up to put 'em on the lift.If you can remain calm, you just don't have all the facts.

          52. User avater
            Longhair | Dec 16, 2003 01:08am | #14

            sorry johnny d guess it was a bad mood morning

  2. User avater
    JeffBuck | Dec 15, 2003 10:47pm | #6

    uhhh.

    why not have the helper finish screwing each sheet ... as you're fighting the next one into place?

    and for what it's worth .... I never leave anything hanging by a thread ... off the ceiling .... for a day ot two!

    me ... I'd just plan on putting in the extra hours to get the job done.

    or break it into 2 days .... I'd rather have half a well hung ceiling than a whole unhung one to walk/work under.

    Plus ... I don't care if it is 5/8th ...... I'd first be running strapping or blocking 16oc.

    Jeff

    Buck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

         Artistry in Carpentry                

  3. Zano | Dec 22, 2003 01:22am | #38

    Someone mentioned using a 2x4 as a backer board fo the butt joints; good idea, but get a sheet of 7/16" OSB board and rip it into 4" strips.  The OSB is better because it only contains 4% moisture and is straight, cheaper, where a 2x4 is crooked, heavy and will shrink - and the OSB leaves the boards even.  Just screw the OSB board 3/4" off the edge every 5" and then 1 1/2" from the end every 9" = the butt will never crack.

    Get a MAKITA - DeWalts are too heavy and too big!  Forget thew Roto-Zip for this small job - go slow with your saw and you'll be alright.

    Who is finishing it - you?

    1. User avater
      johnnyd | Dec 22, 2003 04:11pm | #39

      Do you mean to say that you simply ignore the spacing of the trusses every 24" , as far as the butt joints go, except to provide clearance for the 7/16" OSB backer board, so the ends of abutting sheets are both screwed to this backer board? Makes sense to me. 

      So then the procedure would be: Lay out the first sheet so you make sure the end doesn't line up with a truss...that's probably true by default since the trusses are spaced 24" on center starting with the gable truss, which is out there at the end of the soffit, so you're going to automatically be able to stagger.  Screw the first sheet up, slip the backer board up top, screw it off...etc?

      Although I'm capable of doing a nice job taping and finishing, it takes me forever, so I think it will be worth the time saved to hire a pro to tape this. 

      1. Zano | Dec 22, 2003 11:08pm | #41

        JohhnD,

        What I mean is you run your board perpendicular to the trusses and leave the end of the board in the middle between the two trusses,,,then the rest of the procedure you know.  Make sure you leave the butt joint (end of the board) right in the middle between the two trusses, if it's near a truss the butt joint may not be straight because the crooked truss will bend it.  I'm a drywall sub, had  a senior citizen center 4 years ago and on the 2nd floor all the butt joints (about 250 of them, and we had to do them over again) cracked because we had the butt joint on the truss.  That truss or joist will shrink, move and the 1 1/2" of it is not enough to bind the two boards well. You are supposed to leave the screw or nail at least a 1/2" from the end of the board, but on a 1 1/2" framing member you don't have the space because the framing is hardly ever straight. Well, I've come up with this idea and never had a crack since then.  USG in their Gypsum Construction Handbook recommends leaving a butt joint in between the framing member "to minimize butt joint cracking/ridging".  It works as 4" binding those two boards by an OSB board that will never shrink is a hell of a lot better than joining them on essentially a fault line like a stud, truss or joist.  Thus when the butt joint is in between the stud,joist or truss, there are no direct forces acting on it!  You can even leave a small space between the two boards as recommended by USG and you will rock a lot faster and your finisher will be happy because the boards are even.  It was wonderfull when a sheet of OSB was $5.70, not it's about $15.00 -= but still well well worth it.  You get 24 rips from a 4x8 sheet which is about $.63 per 4" rip.  If you don't need that many rips, you can have the rip up to 9".  Further, I guarantee you that those butts will never crack as this method can take 3,000 pounds more in compression and about 400 pounds more in tension before you see a crack versus if the butt is joined on a stud, joist or truss - cause I had it tested by the National Association of Home Builders at their Research Center.  Why - because there are 4" holding the two boards together with more screws instead of a crooked  1 1/2".

        1. User avater
          johnnyd | Dec 22, 2003 11:14pm | #44

          Son of a Gun that sure makes sense.  Framer left a bunch of 2 ' X 4' 3/4" Advantec trims in the spare bedroom.  I could use those.

          This will also make for great conversation this holiday season with various DIY BILs...and future SILs.

          1. Zano | Dec 22, 2003 11:29pm | #45

            Wanted to send another message that if you have any plywood left on the job, that is good too, so use that trim...just hope it's not real soft wood that will shrink too much.

            Say you had a 20 foot wall with one long piece of drywall on it!  Then your little boy comes to play and he saws the sheetrock right in between the studs..so what do you do?  Remove the now two pieces and put up a new 20 foot board or would you just get a piece of flat stock and screw it behind the  sawed board...it's just plain old common sense!  We splice wire, wood, pipe...why not drywall?  Remember, the main cause of drywall failure is wood shrinkage/movement..so what you can do now to eliminate possible drywall failiure especially in your house...do it! 

          2. User avater
            johnnyd | Dec 22, 2003 11:48pm | #46

            Don't get me wrong...I'm serious.  This is the way I'm going to do it.  Trying to toe-screw the sheet that gets only 1/2" or less of the truss bottom, ripping through the paper, and wondering how it's going to crack later is for the birds.  It's just that I've never heard about this way before.

            Is this SOP for other rockers too?

          3. user-1163745251 | Dec 23, 2003 12:12am | #47

            Just a DIYer here but when I was hanging the rock in my addition I came across these: 

            http://www.butthanger.com/

            I didn't use them but the concept sounds similar to what these guys have been posting and it has the added benefit of creating a recess for the joint compound.

            Not sure what they cost but I like the idea.

            Jim

          4. User avater
            johnnyd | Dec 23, 2003 12:18am | #48

            Any Pros use these?

          5. bill_1010 | Dec 23, 2003 01:14am | #49

            hard to find butthangers where i live.  You can do this process by putting a cove cut on a 1x or a ripped OSB. the sheetrock will pull into the cove leaving a tapered edge.   Your cove cut is about 1/8 inch deep recess.  Its slight but will leave a tapered like edge on your butts.

            I tried contacting the people at butthanger.com but they dont check emails i guess.

          6. Zano | Dec 23, 2003 06:08am | #51

            A relatively few use the backer system as alluded to by someone on this thread who uses a 2x4.  I've talked to a drywall sub in Iowa who said that one of his best rocking crews uses a 2x4 and he never understood why....so I explained it to him but he said that the crew  uses it only for speed.

            Edited 12/22/2003 10:18:43 PM ET by Zano

      2. Zano | Dec 22, 2003 11:14pm | #43

        Further, if you are not going to have that many butt joints, you can rip the OSB on the long end to say about 54 or 56", then you can screw the overlaping OSB onto the next board.

  4. RIPVW | Dec 22, 2003 06:18pm | #40

    I don't think anyone mentioned what a great tool the battery driven senco drywall screw gun is! (that feeds strips of screws) $200 kit comes with drywall router.  I absoulutely love this tool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    well worth the cost on your job!!!

    rip

    1. Zano | Dec 22, 2003 11:10pm | #42

      I saw a DeWalt cordless drywall screw gun and tried it - it was fantastic - it takes regular screws, but I can't seem to find a shop that sells it..got to check out the Dewalt website.

  5. dickd | Dec 23, 2003 06:56am | #52

    The rockers I've seen work put nails in the edges to hold up the sheet, then move on and let the newbys do the screwing.  You can make a story pole, 4 ft of 1x2. screws at appropriate intervals, line it up with the joists or studs, press, and you have little holes to put the screws through. works great, makes you look like you are  horribly neat.

    You can get specials phillips tips with a donut  to keep from punching through the paper.

    Somebody sells a battery drilll that takes SR screws, collated on a strip of plastic,  can really wheel and deal. There is no market for 110 sr drills, so a pawn shop may be a good look.

  6. dfk1963 | Dec 23, 2003 07:16am | #53

    Don't worry about finishing the screwing later as long as you have enough screws in to keep it from falling.  2' around edges and some in the middle sounds fine.   I have never started screws from the middle of the sheet and worked my way out...it's unusual or more likely unnecessary.

    1. User avater
      johnnyd | Jan 27, 2004 05:37pm | #54

      Whew!  Helper and I got about 20 sheets up Saturday and 1/2 of Sunday.  Bought a Makita screw gun....ya'll are right about those...absolutely amazing.  Believe it or not, since I'm 6' 1" and have long arms (37" dress shirt sleeves) I can stand flat footed and screw the field (8' ceilings) once the sheet is up, perimeter screwed, and the lift is out of the way.  Amazed my FIL, who is about 5' 4". I actually can hang the rock almost as fast by myself as with this in-experienced helper....spent more time coaching him about which way to move the rock, how to hit the joists, etc.  Of course, he was concerned that we were wasting the cutoffs, and was always suggesting that we use that little square over there to fill in over there.  Didn't understand about butt joints, still doesn't.  We had a good time though.

      I could get the 9-10 footers up on the lift by myself, using a variety of techniques.  Seems like the best way (and I'm going to try this tonite with some 12 footers) is to set the lift, put the little lock in place so it doesn't roll around, lift one end of the rock up onto one hook, balance it there, and then go around to the other end and lift that end up. That the way you do it?

      Speaking of which, I understand now why experienced crews don't use lifts...they get in the way, screw gun cord gets tangled around, have to move sawhorse multiple times, etc.  I would actually PAY to spend just one day watching an experienced drywall crew at work.

      'Couple more questions...

      I used the OSB backer board on the butt joints as advized, worked great!  Any reason to not use the same backer board butt joint method on the walls, which are typical 2X6 and some 2X8 studs on 16"centers?  Especially if you used 5' long backers, so 12" would extend behind the next board? Or would that be too unsupported a joint for a wall///like if you leaned on it or pushed furniture up against it?  The framer did a pretty good job, so I expect most if not all studs to be square and plumb.

      Also, I ended up with a few light box holes off a little bit, leaving a cresent-moon shaped gap on one side of the cut-out, and emasculated the carefully sealed VB that DW taped around the box edges, while I hacked away, to get the hole to fit the box after the sheet was already set. 

      I know the tapers will mud this, but trying to follow the number one rule in energy efficiency..."seal all potential air leaks" why not foam those gaps, and trim the excess off flush with the rock surface after it dries?  Will the mud bond to the foam, or am I asking for trouble?  I could crawl up in the attic and foam from above, but I don't want to put my foot, or worse, through this nicely hung rock!

      Thanks again for all your advice!

      1. User avater
        BossHog | Jan 27, 2004 06:03pm | #55

        " why not foam those gaps, and trim the excess off flush with the rock surface after it dries?"

        I'd foam around the box, but not bring the foam flush with the surface of the drywall. You're better off having the mud fill the hole and having it sanded flush. Otherwise you'll be trying to prime and paint foam.To age well it helps to have two things. Fame and money [Jeanne Moreau]

      2. Zano | Jan 27, 2004 09:01pm | #56

        You should OSB backer board on the walls, just use 4 feet of it as they will extend over the next board anyways as the top board will overhang on the lower board by 3" and the bottom over the top board by 1 1/2".

        On the overcuts why not use a "blowpatch" instead of the foam - ya know what a blowpatch is...just cut a piece of rock and peel the facepaper of the rock piece and then finish it.

        1. User avater
          johnnyd | Jan 27, 2004 09:35pm | #57

          So if someone were to lean against that butt joint with only an OSB backer board  (NOT supported by a stud), or push a couch against it, it wouldn't have more "give" than if it were supported by a stud?  This will be 1/2 " rock.

          1. Zano | Jan 28, 2004 01:15am | #58

            No, because the OSB actually makes the 1/2" stronger because you have a double layer there now - the rock and the OSB.  Also, the board on the wall is held in place by screws or nails on top and on the bottom with the joint compound tape holding the seams together. 

            Of course, your question also pertains to the drywall between the studs without the OSB - would that crack if too much pressure is applied to it..sure it will, it all depends on how much force.  Too much anything is not good for you  ;-)

            Actually, do one on a wall, screw it every 5" a half inch to 3/4" from the butt board and then a screw every 8" about an inch from the butt end and press aginst it - you will see that the entire boards flexes in as one piece.

            The whole trick to it is securing the boards well to the OSB!

            Tell me, did you find sheetrocking the butts much easier using the backer then if you had to lay them right in the middle of the joist/stud with that lift or with your master helper?

          2. User avater
            johnnyd | Jan 28, 2004 04:55pm | #60

            Oh yeah,  much easier, only thing is I didn't end up with the butt joints exactly between trusses...about 3/4 accross, but it seems plenty stiff, and for sure is a much flatter seam.  I even used OSB backer for a difficult cut-out for a bathroom fan box...ended up 2 1/2 inches from the edge of the board.  Rather than try to cut the hole leaving the edge intact, I cut through, saved the trim, screwed the backer board to the adjoining board, then screwed the piece to that.  Very stiff.

          3. Zano | Jan 28, 2004 01:17am | #59

            Should also mention that USG in their Gypsum Construction Handbook on page 115 uses sheetrock as the backer board, but the procedure is very cumbersome.  So if sheetrock is good for USG, the OSB is far superior for us.

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