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In the construction of my 2-story house this summer I am considering taking on one some of these tasks.
plumbing…no experience
hvac….no experience but a local company will layout the heating plan for a fee.
electrical….limited exp. with house wiring…have done some on aircraft. Would probably try to hire someone to do the connections up to the service panel. Permit in my name.
hardwood flooring….no experience but a pretty good woodworker (cabinets and such..)
ceramic tile….no experience but I have seen so many Hometimes and Home Savvy’s etc etc that I think I could do it.
Basement and Garage slabs…no experience but I know a couple guys who know a couple guys who will work by the hour to supervise.
So there it is. Abuse me if you must but I would appreciate any and all comments. I realize this is a big task but the fewer people (subs) I have to deal with the less miscommunication and delays. Thanks in advance.
Replies
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Steve, part of your post reminded me of sommething I saw on a TV show concerning home projects.
I was was watching a lady--the implication being if she can do it, so can you--installing a tile backsplash for her kitchen countertops. I could see that she was creating a problem for herself, so I became even more keen on watching her progression. Wouldn't you know, they cut to a commercial. When they came back the problem had--presto-chango!-- disappeared.
Anyway, best wishes.
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steve
1 thing to consider is your tool supply and parts inventory.
plumbing is relatively easy and not too many specialty tools required if you let the subs rough it in ( they can do it real fast) and then you can take your time and do the finishes and final hook-ups and save the biggest costs.
again, same with HVAC. get a couple good guys to run the rough and ductwork. it'll save you a ton of time, you do the fixtures and finish.
Hardwood floors are a piece of cake if you rent the nailer. careful when sanding and scraping and watch for air bubbles, puddles and drips on your finish.
ceramic is fun and you will enjoy it if you don,t hurry too much. just make sure you can beg,borrow or steal a decent wet saw if you have more than a few cuts to make.
concrete slabs? make sure your crew and all the tools are there before the truck and ready to go .
I once volunteered to help a friend on his diy pours,a sidewalk, front porch and pole barn. out of the seven guys supposed to show up only myself one other and the homeowner were there, 90 degrees out, here comes the truck!
ever try to trowel finish hard concrete?!
Anyway, I think all these items are reasonable to do yourself if you do your homework and stick to the old boy scout motto " be prepared".
good luck.
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Steve
I would say do everything but the HVAC ductwork and furnace(?) and slabs yourself. Tin banging is fairly specialized, and doing a slab is just plain ugly.
Have fun
Patrick
*My opinion is this, (and by the way the others on here have been unusually nice to you on this subject) If you are a fairly competent individual, you can tackle most of what needs done but I do agree with one post that you may want to let the real plumbers, electricians and hvac people rough all their work in and you can take care of the finishing touches. As for the concrete work... let someone else do it. Concrete is VERY VERY unforgiving and makes for an expensive and permanent mistake. At least with most other trades, you can always tear out your mistakes and start over :)Knock yourself out,Pete Draganic
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Steve
You don't mention your marital status. Key factor that. If you are - how patient is she? You can do any of the stuff on your list but there is a learning curve to it all.
Other thoughts:
Hardwood floors are fun but I'd leave the hardwood floor sanding and finishing to a pro.
Electrics: Plan the job and then have the power company disconnect for a day while you do the service panel connections. Chances are you should replace the service anyway - that makes itall the easier. Put in a new panel wire all your circuits then have the power company disconnect your old panel and connect you new one.
All bathroom sub floors will contain considerable rot. "New vinyl in the bathroom" is an afternoon job only if you don't gave a s-- about what is under it. So don't underestimate the time it will take to tear everything out and do the job right.
And read FB - no I am not selling it - if you don't already. It always has on-point articles for what you are contemplating.
clg
*hey steveIn retrospect, I agree with these other guys. let the concrete guys do the concrete!.
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Steve, I'll second Pete's advice about the concrete.I've seen 40 yard pours that went like a dream and 4 yard pours that were nightmares.Unlike most of the other projects in building once you start you've got to finish. I disagree with Pete regarding permanent mistakes a bad job can always be jack hammered out. See funny or silly screw-ups.
*I can only speak for the mechanicals, but here goes.Definitely have a contractor at least do the rough-in on the plumbing and lay out the water piping for you so everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, is properly sized and vented. If you don't do it right, you'll have traps gurgling, toilets not flushing right and traps siphoning so you have sewer gas back in the house. Contrary to popular belief, there's more to plumbing than "**** runs downhill and Friday's payday". If that's done right, you can do a lot of the finish work yourself without messing anything up.The same goes for electrical. Get the rough-in done and you handle the finish work.As for the HVAC - don't mess with it. It has to be installed right and properly balanced to get even heating/cooling throughout the house.
*If you are willing to put many, many hours in educating yourself, you can do most of what you list. If you have the intelligence to use some of your sweat equity savings and upgrade beyond the standard DIY materials, your job will be easier, safer, and more user-friendly.I agree with allaround and wouldn't touch the HVAC. The pro's will give you a balanced installation with no blood stains on the ductwork.Only do the slabs if you are then prepared to spend a few days swinging a sledge to remove your botched job. While all jobs require skill and technique, a concrete pour is not a place where I recommend you learn "on the job". You could do it right the first time, but unlucky you if you don't.Do you understand wiring? Do you understand how electricity flows? Can you do 3- and 4-way switches? I would think you could do the job you describe. Read, read, read. Ask questions. Be wary of the answers you receive. Take your time. Be safe. Feel free to walk away if you get in over your head. If you are smart enough to walk away from a job, you may just be smart enough to start it in the first place.Good luck! Did you post several months back regarding this same house? Self-design and self-build?.
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Mongo,
"Do you understand wiring? Do you understand how electricity flows? Can you do 3- and 4-way switches?"
Yes and Yes. Of all the mechanicals this is one I feel the most confident about.
" The pro's will give you a balanced installation with no blood stains on the ductwork."
Good point. I like working with wood, I'm wary of sharp metal edges.
"Did you post several months back regarding this same house? Self-design and self-build?"
I might have. I started having flashbacks about putting roof sheathing in high winds at -20F (in MN)and decided to wait until this year.
Thanks for the help.
*Pete,"that you may want to let the real plumbers, electricians and hvac people rough all their work in and you can take care of the finishing touches."That's a good idea. My fear, however, is that the subs will charge me more for that portion of the work than normal and I really won't save much in the end. I think that some in the trades are resentful of homeowners who try to save money or homeowners who feel that anybody can do their specialized work. I just have a real strong DIY streak and want to learn. This is my first house and I'm sure it won't be my last. So anything I learn will be tremendously useful down the road. Also, I think scheduling problems can be minimized by having the trades in only once to do the rough-in. After that it's up to me. Thanks for the help.
*Rich,"part of your post reminded me of something I saw on a TV show concerning home projects."I'm guessing it was this part: "but I have seen so many Hometimes and Home Savvy's etc etc that I think I could do it."I understand what you're saying. I may end up concentrating on the things where I can really save (and have experience) such as framing, siding, roofing, painting, and insulation. Also maybe try ceramic tile in a non-conspicious area such as the master bathroom or basement bathroom.Thanks.
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The thing I find is that I can learn how to do most things with patience -- but the first time takes a long time and isn't what I'd call my best work. Don't underestimate the time involved. My wife is very patient, but does ask questions like "when will we have a kitchen again???"
*Do the things you have confidence in being able to do. I prefer the plumbing and electrical because I can understand it from books and such and it relatively easy to fix if its done wrong - nobody sees most of it except the inspector and rockers. Also, seems like high labor to materials.I don't tape or plaster or sand floors anymore - at least not big areas - because the labor is so inexpensive. I'd agree with concrete pours - you need lots of bodies - but they're not there long and not the top of the wage scale.
*Well Steve, you invited abuse, so abuse you I will!First, I had to laugh when you said; "I realize this is a big task but the fewer people (subs) I have to deal with the less miscommunication and delays. " That is a hilarious statement! The easiest task is talking, and the longest delays will be the "learning curve"!I don't want to talk you out of any of your anticipated tasks, but be realistic! Pros will speed the job up tenfold!In a later post, you worried about subs charging you more for doing only the rough portion, or for whatever. Let me explain.I normally refuse to rough houses for individual homeowners. And if I do, heres why. First, if the homeowner is not an experienced licensed builder, I'll have to teach him how to properly organize the job, and scheduling. This "consultation" time can run into many hours of baic questions, often late at night when I should be earning time and one half. Second, why should I give you, a one time builder, a discounted wholesale rate for my services. The builders that I service throw me twelve houses a year at an average price of $18,000. You'll be giving me one! Why should you enjoy the same quantity dicount?Third, when something goes wrong, in your opinion, I will have to spend many hours explaining and teaching you my 25 yrs of experience. You will then argue back that your Uncle Joe who has stood up one garage, and finished a basement says I'm wrong!I now will have to debate Uncle Joe, and he isn't even present! A few minutes later into the conversation, I'll find out that Uncle Joe is a pretty competent baker, he owns his own shop, and he's usually right about most things. You them will believe Uncle Joe over me!How much is that aggravating conversation worth?!Joe, you probably will be charged more. Consider yourself lucky if you can get a skilled craftsman to help yourself out. While the guys are there, stay out of the way, keep your mouth closed and pay attention! You will learn lots! That's what I call value!By the way, the only homeowner I'll work for is another tradesman because I know they will not set impossibe standards and will generally have a well organized jobsite.Good luck,Blue, framing in MI"Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear."
*Blue eyes makes a good point - it will take much longer than you ever dreamt doing it yourself.And when I do contract for work, I find the guy I want and like and believe will do the work to my standards, and then just ask for time and materials billing. If I think she or he abused it - I write the check and don't call them again. So far, I'd swear by the trades people I've hired and they seem pleased to do the work.
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I will state the obvious first: you did not mention that you were doing it to save money, you won't. You WILL get an education, and an education costs money no matter where you get it. You will buy many specialized tools, metal working seamers and such.
As opposed to the majority, we do all our own concrete, and roofing, siding ,drywall hanging,tile, flooring and ALL the carpentry. It does save the scheduling hassles, but also we are good at it, maybe not quite as fast, but surely as good.
As far as mechanicals, we sub all them out.(except for lengthening a heat run in a remodel or simple plumbing changes) They are faster and they can stay up with the changing codes, and have to deal with the inspectors of there trade.(if they see you pulled your own permit they will scrutinize your work far more than they would a "regular", right or wrong that is the fact of life)
Finally I would say....Go for it, you will learn loads.....and hey the worst thing that could happen is you will have less money nad many stories to post and keep us laughing. Life is a DIY deal anyway. B.Ketter
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Plow ahead, then. You'll derive a great amount of satisfaction by doing the work yourself. I self-built a few years back with no major problems. For the structure I subbed the foundation and masonry, furnace/oil tank installation, and drywall. Drop me a line if you have any specific Q's.
Best of luck and stay safe!
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Steve, the 'Blue eyed devil" is absolutely right. You will be charged more and you definetly deserve to be.Essentially you are trying to steal your subs time ,experience, and expertise for your own profit.I just love guys like you who call my number(after reading it in the expensive ad I pay the Yellow Pages for) and ask " how much do you charge per square if I buy the shingles and you just nail them on".What happened to the nails ,flashing, felt,ice gaurd,drip edge ,caulk, mortar,vents,saw blades,knife blades,wear and tear on tools,ladders, scaffolding,trucks,our knees and backs andhow do you think I pay for the ad you used to find me anyhow?(I am not talking about you exactly but people like you).Perhaps it would be better if you postponed your project untill you can afford it. In this market I don't know why a craftsman would get involved with your 3 ring circus. Good Luck P.S. When problems arise(and they will) with the work you "shared" with the HVAC,electric,Plumbing ETC Who is to blame? You mean you want them to warranty YOUR work. (after you dissed them and cheated them out of their fair profit?HA HA
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I'm sure that what might sound like hostility in some of these posts is inadvertent.
The advice here is good. Three sound reasons to do it yourself are: (1) you enjoy learning the trade and the work itself; (2) you can't afford the work otherwise, or have a more pressing need for it; (3) you have spare time that you want to use productively, time that doesn't take you away from family and friends and the stuff you really want to do in your spare time.
And realize, it takes a lot of time. I did an all-nighter a few weeks ago because I ran into problems with the plumbing (too stingy with the solder sweating the joints) and I knew the residents would prefer a hot shower in the morning. But I expect the end result to be as good and look as professional as what the average pro would deliver in one-fourth the time. For example, I don't leave solder all over the place or scorch the fittings with the torch.
It is the rare tradesman who will work side-by-side with an inexperienced homeowner. But they do exist; some of the friendliest people I've met are contractors and the craftsmen among them are delighted to tell you about their work. Not so many about picayune stuff you should get out of books, but elegant solutions to difficult problems. Just realize they are entitled to a living and fair compensation for their investment in their equipment and education, just like you expect compensation for your own "real" work -- and they might misperceive your effort to get involved as an attempt to sneak away with their profit.
P.S. Being the contrarian, I would take on the HVAC if someone else first did the calculations and plan. In fact, I am taking on the HVAC in our old house, and will have a lot more time to correct the unbalanced sizing and seal the ducts than I'd pay a contractor to do it. (There won't be any long snaking flexible ducts involved either.)
But don't do the slabs, period.
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Mr. Devil,
You certainly have some strong feelings and I can appreciate most of what you said.
"First, I had to laugh when you said; "I realize this is a big task but the fewer people (subs) I have to deal with the less miscommunication and delays. " That is a hilarious statement! The easiest task is talking, and the longest delays will be the "learning curve"!"
You misunderstood. Any delays will be because of me and my "learning curve."
"but be realistic! Pros will speed the job up tenfold!"
I understand.That's why I no longer do much work on my cars except change the oil.
"Second, why should I give you, a one time builder, a discounted wholesale rate for my services."
What is discount about paying x% to do x% of the job? All I would hope for is someone reasonable who would add up the time they figure it would take for rough-in and charge me fairly for that time.
"Consider yourself lucky if you can get a skilled craftsman to help yourself out. While the guys are there, stay out of the way, keep your mouth closed and pay attention! You will learn lots! That's what I call value!
Right on.
Steve
*"Essentially you are trying to steal your subs time ,experience, and expertise for your own profit."That is an absurd statement. First of all I'm just asking. I haven't tried to "steal" anything from anybody. The reason I am asking the questions in this forum is because any input is totally optional. I will not go out to jobsites or call subs to waste their time. I'm no more proposing "stealing" anything than any builder "steals" for their "own profit.""Perhaps it would be better if you postponed your project until you can afford it."That's a bold statement. I'm a hands on guy, I like this stuff. I will get bids for everything and make my decisions then. You have no idea how much money I do or don't have."In this market I don't know why a craftsman would get involved with your 3 ring circus"It's a 3 ring circus because I asked a some questions? How come so sensitive? "When problems arise(and they will) with the work you "shared" with the HVAC,electric,Plumbing ETC Who is to blame? You mean you want them to warranty YOUR work. (after you dissed them and cheated them out of their fair profit?HA HA "I wouldn't ask anybody to warranty anything they haven't done. That makes sense to me. HA HA
*Andrew,"I'm sure that what might sound like hostility in some of these posts is inadvertent. "It doesn't feel that way."But they do exist; some of the friendliest people I've met are contractors and the craftsmen among them are delighted to tell you about their work."Same here. On the other hand I would rather not deal with some people who figure that because the market's so hot they can charge whatever they want and I'd better bend over and like it. God forbid I should question things. "Just realize they are entitled to a living and fair compensation for their investment in their equipment and education, just like you expect compensation for your own "real" work -- and they might misperceive your effort to get involved as an attempt to sneak away with their profit."I agree with every word.Thanks,Steve
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Steve, it looks like I started an avalange, sorry!'
Actually, I didn't intend to abuse you, because I admire anyone who has the guts to lay it on the line and ask the pros. Many times, I learned the hard way when I should have asked!
To answer your question concerning the discount: Our business is organized in such a way that the builder sells our service to homeowners at what would be considered "retail". We sell our services to the builder at what would be considered "wholesale".
If the homeowner wants to bypass the builder, and take his "markup", thats fine. As a businessman, I reserve the right to protect the collegues that I do business with. I therefore refuse to sell my services to homeowners at the "wholesale" rate, thus cutting out the builder.
It is just my personal decision regarding my business. I would hope that all professional carpenter contractors do the same, to protect the fragile market that we share.
There is also another reason that will directly affect real costs. If I work for the same builder, often I will be duplicating, in a sustantial way, many floor plans, elevations, features, etc. The learning curve is spread over many houses.
When I work for a homeowner, the learning curve is spread over one house. That alone is worth 10%.
Also, there is quite a bit more risk when I work with homeowners. What would you do if this situation occured: We completed the upstairs wall, complete with siding, windows, and overhangs. We raised the wall, bracing it securely for the weekend. Monday morning, on my daily walk around the house, I noticed the upstairs window had fallen out due to the rookie improperly angling his nails ( basically, they were hitting air). The window frame is destroyed.
When I see the super (his first day back from vacation), I give him the good news: "Order me another window"! We study the frame, and he says "Oh well, s**t happens, ok!" I reply, "by the way, the large arched window over the foyer cracked too, you better send out a replacement for that one too."
He's paying, I'm not.
Would you the homeowner take the loss so calmly? And pay for the window too?
These are just some of the considerations that affect a contractors price.
Hope you take all the abuse in stride, no harm intended.!
Framing maniac in MI.
Blue
"Be nice to your kids. They'll choose your nursing home."
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Blue,
"because I admire anyone who has the guts to lay it on the line and ask the pros"
Thanks, I got tired of waiting for someone else to ask the questions I needed.
"When I work for a homeowner, the learning curve is spread over one house. That alone is worth 10%."
That makes sense.
Concerning the broken window scenario. I guess I feel that whoever directly pays the rookie should be on the hook. I guess it's just one of those things I should keep in mind. The way things are and the way things should be are not necessarily the same.
"Hope you take all the abuse in stride, no harm intended.!"
I honestly appreciated all of the responses. Realistically I don't have time to do all of the mechanicals. Even if I did I would probably be sick of the house before I even moved in. I'll probably stick to what I know and have done.
Steve
*Steve D. , I think it was Mark Twain who said "there is nothing dumber than an educated man once you get him off the thing he is educated in".Please be aware that the tradesman you ask for free advice have spent years accumulating the tools,knowledge and experience you now wish to obtain for the price of a few online minutes.Those who also own their own businesses have invested thousands and thousands of dollars in order to provide a quality standard of living for their employees and their own families.I am sorry but I do think you are in effect trying to cheat them through your ignorance of the financial intricacies(sic) of the construction industry.In my trade,(and I am sure most others)most of the expense is in the planning,prep work, and "rough in".A lot of the grunt work. Now why would a experienced tradesman do all of that work and then cut the price so you can pat yourself on the back over what a good job you did hooking up some light switches or installing a toilet?THE majority of the work was installing the plumding lines or correctly routing the wires.And while you are looking over his shoulder asking for some pointers on the finish work you just cut him out of you are in effect stealing from him (and slowing him down)After all we don't come into your workplace and ask for free advice do we?PLease understand that what seems reasonable to you may be completly unreasonable from our perspective. Best wishes but I gotta go have a tooth filled (really)
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If for instance an electrician or plumber agrees to a certain scope of work for a certain amount, how is that cheating them? (And again, I recommend time and materials.) If you're saying Steve will find out that undertaking the trim and finish parts of electrical and plumbing doesn't amount to much savings, so be it. And it certainly will stretch a weeks work at most to over a month or two at the least.
You're lucky its only a filling - I'm in for 4 crowns in the next two weeks! Yeow!
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Hazlett, you're an arse. Plain and simple. No one is trying to steal anything. If a sub doesn't want the job, he doesn't have to take it. Just name a price, and the DIY'er doesn't have to take it either.
You've got an axe to grind. Was someone not nice to you on a jobsite? Did a homeowner forget to bow down to you? Awwwwwww.... poor baby.
Don't want to give away so called free advice? Don't talk to anyone here. We don't need your bitter kind.
John Springland
*I am a do it myselfer. I have rebuilt a house and rebuitl several bathrooms kitchens, etc.Some of these responses are right on. The one about the experience being an education, never truer words spoken or typed. That is the best part about fixing my own house. I learned. Did I save money? That depends on how much value I put on my "free" non-career time. If you work an 8-5 job and just sit on your butt watching TV when not at work then you can realistically value your non-career time pretty cheaply. If you are involved in everything under the sun and can't spare a minute then your free time is high priced. After fixing my house I have come to the conclusion I don't enjoy some things and won't do them. I value my free time now more than when I rebuilt the house. I want to make new furniture and do things I enjoy. I don't want to do hard physical sweaty labor. And I have the choice not to do it.When doing it yourself you are trading saved money for spent time.Things will take a long time to do it yourself if you have never done it before. Ceramic tile is hard sweaty work. The first job won't be very good. The second will be OK. Plumbing. I hate plumbing but doing it all from scratch is easier than monkeying with old plumbing. Having open walls and floors is much easier too. I love electrical. Open walls and floors. Wonderful. Concrete? I don't like working with drywall mud. Drywall. Hard work for no satisfaction or joy. Painting. Not my favorite. Siding. I don't mind this.When you are done you will be able to look at your work and feel pride and accomplishment. That is worth something. Unfortunately you are the only one who will have this feeling of pride. No one else will give a damn or consider your work anything special. People who do not do the work do not understand what is involved. They will think its no big deal and its easy work. Relatives who did a minor job 40 years ago are especially prone to not giving any credit where due and thinking everything is simple.Sorry for the rambling. In summary you will learn a lot and trade time for money. And will have more pride in your house.
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Wow Steve, you seemed to have found a few exposed nerves. As a long term member of the the DIY bunch, I feel you can do anything you set your mind to. Understand that it will take a lot longer than you thought it would, and the first one out of the chute may be less than perfect. I am about 2/3's the way through building a house and I am doing nearly everything, including excavation, footings, foundation walls, framing, roofing, septic, plumbing, electrical, yada, yada, yada. I don't intend to do the dry wall taping and finishing, and I am a little concerned about doing stucco. Otherwise everything else is fair game, including concrete work.
As to saving money doing it yourself, that isn't always true, especially if you attach a value for your time. However, I am saving a great deal of money by not having a huge mortgage on the place. Our project is pay-as-you go which is in part why it is a 4 year project.
Build it yourself, because you want the satisfaction of doing it the way you want it done, not because you think you will save a bunch of money. You will get to exercise the ultimate level of control, which is not to say that you will always be in control. Good general contractors and craftsmens get paid for a reason.
One of the reasons I choose the DIY route was the difficulty in finding a good contractor or subcontractor. When the paint fell of our first house that was just over a year old, I spent months working with and arguing with contractors and insurance companies trying to get that fixed. Then there was the yahoos that installed the fire place, and the plumber that didn't glue his joints. Don't get me wrong, there are some excellent people out there, but finding them is a real exercise in dective work.
The other main reason for the DIY route was the personal challenge. As others pointed out, you will learn a great deal during your adventure. In many respects, I have a much greater appreciation for those that work in the building industry, that are worthy of being called craftsmen. The project will also consume all your free time and put a lot of strain on relationships, especially a marriage. One the other hand, I have a great excuse to buy tools, and I now a have a marvelous collection (does anybody know what size peg board you need to hang a back hoe on? ;-)
As to getting information like quotes, prices, or advice from contractors, I have learned to frame my requests around readily understandable units. Instead of asking how much to roof a house which may have hips, and valleys, dormers and god knows what else, specify a very simple structure like 10 squares on a 4:12 gabled roof. Learn to speak the lingo. I got comparative prices for roof trusses with the same approach. For something that is more than a few minutes of their time, I ask how much they charge to spend a few hours doing consulting. And don't forget books, magazines, and groups like this one. Good luck, be safe, and have fun.
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Steve Dewing,and especially John Springland,of course I am an arse but I have been called worse and I am not defensive about it.Steve asked for opinions on his project and he admitted up front he might take some heat.Perhaps I was too blunt and came off nastier than I intended but I will readily accept the blame.Steve, perhaps I unfairly offered a view of your financing but maybe I can shed some light on how I made that assumption. I get 2-3 calls a week from real estate agents who are looking for an estimate on some type of work on a house they have a listing for.Sounds like a lucrative source of work doesn't it?I thoght so to and my first years in business I would eagerly go out and provide these free estimates. Being the slow learner that I am(or arse as john springland refers to me) it took me about 60-80 free estimates before I worked out that I never got any work out of these calls.I got plenty of work from regular home owners but never from realtors.It is now fair to assume that it is a waste of my time to estimate a job for a realtor an I no longer do so.There was a similar learning curve which lead me to assume that all landlords would want the fastest possible work using the cheapest possible materials and the privledge of not paying for 30 days.(homeowners generally pay upon completion ie. almost instantly )This was followed by projects such as steve proposes leading me to the unfair assumption that steve's project may have a very high pain in the butt factor for the workers involved.Plenty of lost time due to the inevetable scheduling conflicts and steve not being able to get his work done when he thought he could.also steve,instead of taking offense at my 3 ring circus crack look at what else I told you.Given the limited profit potential and high irritation factor involved with your job most of the best contractors will probably figure why bother?There is plenty of other work available. Steve was very upfront about admitting what he doesn't know.I tried to point out what he did not know that he did not know which was the financial side that most DIY types ignore. (another unfair assumption)I will now sign off leaving myself open to more abuse with this tip for john springfield.Before you criticize someone try walking a mile in his shoes, that way when you do criticize him you will be a mile away from him AND you will have his shoes!
*I will now sign off leaving myself open to more abuse Hazlett, Don't go away mad; just go away.
*John, I hereby bow to your superior wit and wisdom.In fact I am turning over a new leaf.In keeping with my new cheerfull and politicaly correct disposition I won't post anything unless I have something sunny and uplifting to say . I urge all of my peers who actually earn a living with their building skills to join me in the following vow.Raise your right hands and repeat after me....Ipromise never to disagree with a DYIer,I promise to put aside my years of hard won experience and accept the views of the DYI crowd as gospel,I promise to believe that the intimate knowledge DYIers gain rehabbing their personal residences far out weighs my experience working on hundreds of houses and I promise never to offer an opinion unless it agrees with everyone elses.As an added bonus We the undersigned promise to stop patronizing our long established local suppliers ,forgetting their years of friendly and knowledgeable service and instead buy only from the big boxes...Home Depot,Loews,and Builders Square.We will depend on the advice of a teenager in a cloth apron,pile our materials in a shopping cart and wait at the check-out like everyone else.(After all the lowest initial price is what sells ) Wheeeeew ,Now that we're all pal's again let me buy the first round......Mongo,I think you were having a Guinness,Steve what can I get you?
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Stephen,
Having to have the last word can also have its pitfalls. Your vitriolic last words say a lot about you, and it isn't pleasant.
*I think you Diy'ers are being a bit harsh on the tradesmen here. We have hundreds of horror stories, millions of hours struggling through the mud, barns stuffed with broken equipment, and we just get a bit grouchy! You would too!Steve's used a little humor to make some more good points, and then he gets slammed. Take it easy!Every one is entitled to build their own. You can even ask different tradesmen for tips. But that doesn't mean that you deserve an answer! Does Betty Crocker give out her new recipes? Does Merril Lynch spend millions on stock research and then broadcast the results to the world?Tradesmen are entititled to their "trade secrets". I have learned many tricks over the years that I will not divulge, here or anywhere! I work and live in a competitive enviorment, and need to keep some things for my old age!As far as subbing half the job out, many would take offense, and simply not bid the work. You basically are trying to cut out the easiest part of the job! Are you aware that many journeymen have worked long hours at the rough to "earn" the stripes that will give them a shot at the finish!If you do find someone that will "just" rough the mechanicals, you better have a lot of trust in them. There are many tricks to make the rough easier at the expense of the trimmers!I'm going to sum this subject up in this way. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I personally wouldn't ask another tradesman to do half the job. I wouldn't ask my dentist to fill the tooth that I drilled either! But that's just me! blue"Rehab is for quitters."
*
I appreciate the discussion from the professional side and, as a weekend warrior, would hate to see good information sources forced out because they have strong opinions on matters that affect their pockets.
I am involved in a project that touches on some of these issues, so I'm quite interested in this debate. In the process of tearing up our deck to make repairs, I discovered that we had extensive rot and termite infestation from a poorly installed ledger. I immediately called in a contractor as I knew this was way over my head. He gave us a price on the house repairs and we accepted. In the course of that work I asked him to design a post and beam support structure to replace the ledger, and to give me a price to do that job. I made it clear that I was considering doing it myself and that I expected to pay him for the design if I did so. I also made it clear that I intended to put in the new joists and the decking myself as I wanted to use concealed clips (Deckmaster), and figured that the extra work involved would make it way too expensive to hire someone else to do. He did the design and gave a price which I considered quite reasonable, so told him to go ahead on that as well.
I later asked him to come out and advise me on some additional support that I needed for another part of the deck. He spent a few minutes pretty much confirming what I had already thought and told me there was no charge. I told him I didn't expect to use him for nothing so he gave me a nominal price and I paid him. There was never any discussion about his doing this additional support work (although I'm wishing I had asked, because it's turning out to be a pain).
I tried to act like I would expect to be treated. I did use him to do grunt work that I didn't want to do (and that I wanted to be sure was up to code and general good building practice), but I was up front about my intentions and paid his price. I think I've been a good guy, but am interested in comments from those of you on the other side of the transaction. Would you feel that you had been used? Even if I was open about what I intended to do, was this pushing things a bit?
(As a point of information, I think he really underbid the deck support job but made it up on the structural repairs to the house when the damage turned out not to be as extensive as we had feared. I paid both jobs as estimated and agreed.)
*You know, I go away for a long week and miss this pleasant thread. I am a licesed contractor and homebuilder. I wouldn't consider balancing a set of general ledgers or whatever Steve does. He has the perfect right to screw up his dream house, and we should let him.Plumbing: Oh yeah, I'd love to see those vent stacks and sweated copper joints. The building inspector would have the place shut down. Steve, with absolutely no experience, I'd watch some Bob Villa and stick to installing the toilets and sinks.HVAC. Your nuts. I have been building homes for 20 years and I wouldn't even touch it. Spend your engergy on finding a good sub. There are plenty out there. Ask a good general contractor.Electrical. Do you know what out of phase is? If not, go directly to the end of this post.Hardwood Floors? Naaah. By the time you screw it up, you can get a good sub for whole deal for about $7.50 a foot. Heck the material will run $2, and the sanding and finish about $2.50. You might be able to save $2 a foot. Big deal.Ceramic Tile. Steve, what is the proper mix for a mortar base? Was that 5-1 or 1-5? Do you really want to screw this up to save $750? Are you better than the guy that does three floors a week?Concrete. No way. Not ever. As one guy said, it is just not very forgiving. Run away very quickly from this project.Bottom Line? Unless you have more time than sense, I wouldn't touch it. You're better off on your day job, earning money to pay guys like me to do it. Come out to the job site, watch, make sure its done right, and take photos of your new home. We stand by our work, we are bonded, insured and take care of our workers. After its all done, you can install some track lighting or put in some trim.
*
John et al
I've been doing this stuff for 20 years, and even though I take a lot of pride in my work(some of which gets quite complicated structurally) and I pretty much 'do it all' because in this rural outback where I've relocated there aren't any subs around that I would have on my site, I can say without prejudice that "ain't none of it rocket science". And while I fully support most of the commentary about the value of the time & experience invested by my fellow tradesman I think you do Steve D. a great diservice snickering in advance about his potential skill level. If you'd ever seen the monumental amount of total crap passed of by "professionals" that I have, in all the trades, you wouldn't be so pompous!!!
-Patrick
*Patrick,I agree.The first home I built as GC Was built about as well as any I have done since. I also did all the systems only subcontracting drywall.I never built a home before that home so their were many a sleepless night. The key to building anything complex is thinking in layers, thinking ahead to the next layer, thinking back from the last layer and making it all work together. Don't be afraid to take your code inspectors to lunch, let them eat while you ask questions and write notes as fast as you can.Just some of the ideas that kept me mostly out of hot water.Not everybody can teach themselves on the job the trades but I know many of us do just that.Scarey thought but I taught myself to fly too,Jack : )
*andrew,Does he blow them up?.......Or do they just get so big that they get stuck between the magnetic particles on the web server's hardrive?hhhmmmm,jack : )
*Get some sleep, Jack!Sorry your message seems out of place -- I withdrew mine when i realized i might be stepping into another Bosnia here. Guess who the Serbs would be?
*
Well, have you had your fill of contradictory
answers yet? How about one more opinion?
I am an ex-contractor and after 12 years in the business, I went to work for an 8:30 to 4:30
employer. I did a lot of different jobs myself when I had contracts, but nothing that I thought I could get done either for less or quicker by a sub. (actually, it is not legal here to do electrical for another without a masters ticket, so I always subbed that out)
Now that I am out of the business, I can't wait to get home each day to work on whatever job I have underway!
My advice to you is to figure out which jobs you really can do yourself (and do well); figure out which jobs you REALLY WANT to do yourself; figure out how much time you realistically have to do these jobs yourself (considering how much time you can take away from your regular job - and you did say you were going to do it this summer. I presume you were planning on finishing the job sometime this year?) and finally; figure out if your home life will take the stress of you doing all the things you propose.
From my experience:
tin bashing; you will probably have to pay someone to at least build plenums to your measurements, would you not be better off having them measured and installed too? Will you actually save much if you only have the HVAC roughed in? I think you will find that the bulk of the work is in the rough-in.
electrical; here it is illegal for an electrician to do work on another's permit (as, in doing your final connections for you), how about where you live? Will you find an electrician who wants to pull a permit only to have the inspector regard your work as his? I do my own electrical now and quite enjoy it, and as one of the other respondants pointed out, there are good (and simplified) books on that.
concrete; I have a very capable and handy friend who also spent many years in construction and his biggest regret (besides the finger tip he lost) is the garage floor he placed and finished himself. Yes, he could hammer it out and have it redone, but that is a lot of work and expense to go to. Do you want to do that?
Analyze the job, your skills, your time, your home life and, lest we forget, your budget. We all have opinions on what you can/should do and what we can/would do, but only you can decide for yourself which you will do.
Best of luck with your project and no matter which way you go, I know you will have a lot of fun (along with a lot of headaches)
*Steve,In the last 7 years we have added onto our house twice. The first time I asked around a LOT looking for a GC who only did remodels/additions, worked for owners (as opposed to investors/landlords/developers), and who was a craftsman. Took over a year but I found him. We met twice to go over the project and to discuss what we wanted to do ourselves (demolition, site clean up, grunt labor like digging trenches, interior and exterior trim and paint, etc.) and what we wanted him to do (everything that could cause our house to fall down or burn up or get flooded). I paid him $50/hour for these meetings. We came to an agreement, went ahead with the project, each held up our end of the bargain, we got our addition and he made money. I don't see anything wrong with that. If he didn't want the job there was no one forcing him to take it.He must have been satisfied because when I called him 4 years later for round two we did it again. This time I wanted to tile the bathroom but wanted him to put up the cement board. Who wants to hang cement board? Yuck. He charged me a lot. It was worth every penny. The tile turned out beautifully (according to both the GC and the inspector) and I really enjoyed doing it. (And since I got all the tile at a tiler's garage sale the materials cost under $100.)A contractor/DIYer collaboration project is not going to work for everyone. But in my experience it can work fine with the right contractor and the right DIYer. One thing we did agree to was that the schedule would not be written in stone. He agreed to let us slow down the job and we agreed to let him prioritize his other jobs over our's. Fair deal. BTW - we are still friends with our GC, and I have referred several other people to him since.I'm self employed and do understand the frustration with customers wanting you to work for next to nothing. But if I set my price so I will make a profit and the customer is willing to pay my price then I'm not being taken advantage of. That's business. It's up to me to charge enough to make it worth my while.
*Barry Miller,I fully accept your point about my posting.You are absolutely correct and I appreciate your candor.I trust you will interprate this as an opology and not as another effort to get in the last word.I can only plead temporary insanity brought on by dental induced grumpiness.By the way wouldn't it be great if these computers could convey voice inflection and fascial expressions along with text?That way it would be easier to tell if a posting was meant to convey irony,sarcasm,venom,etc.Like my Dad always said "it's not what you say it's the tone of voice you say it with".Anyhow I appreciate your input and I will watch myself from now on. Thanks,Stephen.
*
Steve, I admit I have not read all of the posts the first thirty or so covered it, but didn't say what I had in mind.
My first impression was that you should find people looking for side work. This is not a formal arrangement, and I suppose legally you would have to call these people "friends" because your name will be on the permit. I started doing more side work because people were basically begging me to do this. As soon as I started, I found there is a whole trade that operates on nights, weekends, and holidays. By the trades you left out I assume the house will be sided and roofed with windows and doors - i.e. - weathertight. Now this becomes a work in progress. The schedule can be relaxed some, and this is an ideal situation for side work, or for a contractor looking for a little fill-in work. The fact that you consider doing it says alot. My folks have me change faucets, they know they can't do these things.
I have been lucky in that I know and have met competent, highly qualified people that do this because they like the work and the money. Because this is not their bread and butter they are much more easy going about sharing knowledge, helping you, teaching you. Perhaps this is an anamoly in my area, but I doubt it.
-Rob
*
With hesitation, I venture into this fray.
DIY'ing seems like a good idea to the individual who envisions building their dream home on a shoestring. As a building professional however, the reality (based on personal experience)
b always
goes like this: Being a friend or acquantance of the DIY'er, I am constantly asked for design advice on the construction. Perhaps I should be as grumpy as some of the tradespersons have been accused of in this thread, but I generally try to give advice and sufficient warnings about pitfalls, but homeowner is apparently determined to fall of a cliff. Once in construction, usually when an inspection is imminent, homeowner asks for more "advice", and sometimes pays me for such "advice" with some baked goods. When homeowner fails inspection, due to poor planning, ill-concieved field changes, sloppy work, and other nightmares (I could go on in great, humorous detail), homeowner now calls frequently seeking more "advice". Most consultants I know charge $50-$100/hr for their "advice", why won't I wise up?
This thread seems to be degenerating into a flame war between those w/ the building experience, and those that seek it. I admire the DIY'r that takes on the project that is slightly over their head, perseveres and finishes w/ something that may have saved them some $ and probably gained them some knowledge and some new tools.
But, the admonishments and outright abuse vented in this thread is based on
b experience.
The posters aren't irrational, abusive prima donnas, they are trying to save the well-intentioned DIY'r serious injury to their pride, wallets, physical person and personal relationships. Many a marriage has not survived this process. Building a home is not building a deck. When we read these posts from the DIY'r who wants to take on the homebuilding process, our eyes roll back in our heads and we can't hold our tongues.
BTW, do you really think you will build your house this summer? My current DIY story is the guy who in putting on a 1000 sf addition, started 6 mos. ago and still hasn't gotten the roof framed yet. He may be done in 2-3 yrs (and he can work full time on it).
My advice: Get construction financing, a good design, line up a good GC. If you are determined to build yourself, act as your own GC (also fraught w/ peril),get good subs, and do only that work which you have experience
b and time
for. And, if married, hope your relationship is a strong one.
*
Are the Serbs winning, losing, or just dieing?
Jack : )
*I suspect that it may wear on a marriage that is either not solid to begin with or where only one partner is committed to the project. In my case - diying two major old houses over nearly 25 years of marriage - it has only made our relationship stronger.But you're right about one thing - it's not a summer project. More like a year or two in planning and 2-5 in construction - at least.
*Fred,"We" doesn't include me.I started like an inexperienced DIY with one difference. The house I built was for a client and I got paid. Now that may seem even ten times more risky but all ended well.Sometimes what you b don't know allows one the courage to forge ahead when others would rather say no it can't be done.The greater the risk, the greater the reward,Jack : )
*J*sus Mongo, What a story!I'm a builder but after that story I'm sellin the tools!You and your wife were able to do it....but boy do I feel for the less able! What kind of living H*ll some people are willing to risk in the name of saving a buck that might never show its face.DIY Homebuilding's definitely one of those b "two edged sword" affairs w/ b real sharp edges.Great story,Jack : )
*
My wife and I put a lot of our own labor in our house when building it. We poured our own concrete flat work-- using some concrete guys thru a local temp agency. We had the house framed by a great crew of carpenters, I just didn't have the time on evenings and weekends to get it framed in the 10 days it took them.
We did all our own wiring. Just buy a gross of nail-on electrical boxes, lay them out on each wall where you want a recepticle then nail 'em on. (make sure they are all the same height off the floor!) Same goes with where you want the switches and ceiling light fixtures. After that it's easy to figure out where to drill to route the wiring.
Pull all you home runs to your main panel location.
Read up on three-way switches. Those are the toughest to figure out. wiring the panel is easy. All copper to the ground lugs, all whites to the nuetral bar, all the blacks go into a circuit breaker. Figure 20 amp breakers from most circuits. Run a rough calc to see how many recepticles and lights you can safely hook to a twenty amp breaker.
We also did our own hardwood floors. Birds eye maple we pulled from a 1920's dance hall being torn down. Still had glitter in the cracks! Had to run it thru a planner before install. now it looks great and is one of a kind!
Ceramic tile work is ever so easy with cement board for a backer. We borrowed a 4 1/2" grinder with a dry diamond wheel to make the cuts. (I'd definatley beg borrow or steal a wet saw!)
We did all our own trim carpenrty, hung the doors, base and moldings, even did all the siding-- a week of working to 2 am outside on ladders and planks in the cold mists and rain of november under spot lights and a crappy generator. Paid off tho, We got to move in on Christmas Eve, talk about a happy wife!!
Go for it, by the very fact that your'e asking if you should do it in this forum, with the kind of quality tradesmen who are here, indicates to me that you have the werewithall to figure things out and have it come out decent. Good Luck!!
*
Jack
What Mongo post? Did it vaporize, or did Mongo delete it? It sounds great.
Frank
*Frank,Post 34 is missing!A tantalizing tale if I recall....It may be stored on my hardrive as I have downloaded some of the more interesting threads in case Sean loses control of his b "domain."Maybe Mongo had second thoughts....hmmm?... On second thought, I don't think I should have said anything here at Breaktime but they say people will be able to read minds and reverse engineer DNA soon enough anyway....yikes!....In need of a good brain washing,Jack : )
*
Elwood,
You say, "Figure 20 amp breakers for most circuits".
If you are talking about branch cicuits for lights and plugs, then you are mistaken. The maximum breaker size for lighting and duplex receptacles is 15 amps. Where I am from this is specified in the electrical code. In any event, just read the fine print etched into the receptacles themselves - (15A).
There are special 120 volt receptacles designed for 20 amps. They have a different prong configuration and are commonly used in workshops for large power tools, etc.
To swap 20 amp breakers for 15's in standard household circuits - even if you are running #12 wire - is a mistake. Use more cicuits, not bigger breakers.
*
Steven and all,
Most circuits, lighting(includes outlets) 15 amp breakers. Kitchen counter, 20 amp, appliances vary...there is way more to it than these three posts.
Jack : )
*
I think we've got a deal here! You don't want his business. He doesn't want your attitude! Seems fair. Buck
*We are clearly dealing here with a man who enjoys life. He concentrates on the positive, and up lifts all around him. Why, ever since he got his GED, he's been a paragon of the community. All the blather about saw blades, wear and tear, tools and equipment and your aching back, (not to mention your belly aching), is something you build into the bid!! If you don't want the bid, tell him your too busy. If you can't handle the 'business aspects' of the business, get out of the business!! The average build price in our area is close to $1,000,000.00. With your attitude, no general or sub would let you near a paying client.Buck
*
Steven and AJ - True, most circuits other small appliance and those for special purposes like garage door openers are customarily 15 amp but they need not be so. I believe it is permitted to have more than one 15 amp receptacle on the 20 amp circuit, just not a single. If it's not - someone here will quote chapter and verse of the NEC. (I just packed mine since I'm changing jobs this weekend or would have referenced the section to save other's looking.)
*
If you think he's trying to cheat you, why even respond to the post? You are of no help here, and I suspect in a lot of other situations. (Please, PLEASE!! TAKE THAT PERSONALLY!!) Why do you post here?? You aren't asking for free advice, ARE YOU?? Why, that's little better than theft!! Your quote of Twain about educated men speaks more of you than you realize. Think about it!
Buck
*Did I miss something? Has FHB changed the purpose of this site from a free exchange of ideas and experiences for ALL people interested in improving their homes and skills into a forum for professionals ONLY? To bash someone for asking a question is contrary to the spirit of this site. If you feel that giving advice on this forum adversely affects your bottom line, then exercise your god-given right to say nothing.
*Did I miss something? Has FHB changed the purpose of this site from a free exchange of ideas and experiences for ALL people interested in improving their homes and skills into a forum for professionals ONLY? To bash someone for asking a question is contrary to the spirit of this site. If you feel that giving advice on this forum adversely affects your bottom line, then exercise your god-given right to say nothing.
*Damn!! That's the phrase I've been struggling for! And, in re bidding for real estate agents. No problem! Bidding fee, $100.00! That puts a few dollars in your pocket (agreed, a very few.) And cuts way down on phone calls. That sir, is a classic no brainer!Buck
*
Dave,
You missed nothing. I get a constant kick out the "you're taking food out of the mouths of babies" logic from pros who hate DIYers, but after sifting out that BS, there's some good stuff about being realistic about one's skills and timetable. The short discussion on 20 and 15 amp breakers points out the dangers of a little knowledge and shooting from the hip without the resources available.
*John...Buck,The heats gettin kinda high here...Time for some fun posts soon?Never think we should directly call each other arses and really don't appreciateany one who uses the word "ignorant" in any post...real strong yukword isn't it?Warmin my hands from the glowof these posts'Jack : )
*
Steve,
I say good for you. More power to ya. Who can fault you for wanting to take care of your own business. If all the sub's don't like well that is unfortunate. Some are probably just mad they can't come in and do a average service and charge you three times what the service is worth. What is the difference why you want to do it yourself? As far as I know it is still a free country. Anyway, I do everything I possibly can myself, although I have never tried my hand at HVAC. There are some good points to the tool investments that these guys have to make. Personally I buy what tools I feel I must have and rent or borrow the others. My reasons for doing electrical, framing, plumbing, drywalling, taping, painting, Etc. are I want the best possible job I can get, I can Afford to pay for it, but I enjoy doing it myself. Yeah, so it will take me longer to do the job, but with some investigating, patience, and persistance you can do as well as some and probably better than others. People work better when they are working for themselves. More often than not, the few times that I have dealt with sub-con's I have been very disappointed. Not that all are bad, I'm just real lucky. I know there are some fine one's pout there. I say do what you think you can yourself and pay for help where you need it. I'd say your brighter than 3/4 of these guys and I don't even know you.
*
Which of us was shooting from the hip - in your opinion? I'm hoping JT will step in here - he's pretty good illuminating (pun intended) the details of NECism's.
*Bill,Last time I was inspected, it was told to me very directly that 20 amp breakers are a no no and fire hazard on lighting circuits such as bedroom wall outlets. He said this is due to the general sizing of lamp cord never being close to 12 wire in current carrying capacity. Makes sense to me.... Yes you can use multiple 15 amp rated receptacles in a 20 amp kitchen countertop circuit... And yes you can use 12-2 to wire a circuit that is to be used with 15 amp breaker but it's a waste of money and 14-2 is much easier to work.Just getting by in residential wiring,Jack : )
*Yes, Bill-Mongo is right, at least under the NEC. Local areas and, especially, individual inspectors have other ideas. It is permitted to have standard 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit, odd but true. If your table lamp is drawing near 20 amps, you already have other problems! Certain machines that require 20 amps (like a medium-size table saw) have a special plug so that they will only be attached to 20 amp circuits. 15 amp circuits are typically used for light duty purposes such as room lights, and let you use 14 gauge wire for relatively short runs (I find it easier to do nice work in the box with 14 guage, and you can have more wires in the box); the 20 amp are more generally useful and require 12 guage. After so many feet the voltage drop is too great (2%?) and you need the next larger wire.There are a bazillion other requirements, like outlets every six feet in the house, every four in the kitchen; 2 20-amp small appliance circuits in the kitchen which serve nothing else, including lights; box volume requirements; the furnace, fridge, dishwasher are supposed to have private circuits (it is good to keep the breaker closer the the motor rating in the event the motor lights up); GFCI in bath/kitch/outside/garage, within so many feet of a pipe; etc., etc. The great passion of the NEC seems to be stopping people from using extension cords, which which I agree wholeheartedly.Easy to make a mistake, though i wonder how many inspectors know it chapter and verse. I probably made some goofs and/or omitted rules that someone considers vital. But read all about it before you end up wasting time pulling out your work.Still sniffing for smoke, Andrew
*Barry,I am shooting from the hip...have I nicked you?Have a pretty good ER kit in the truck if you want me to run after it.I for one am enjoying "learning the pulse" of the average contractor and DIY types.To me it's all a two edge sword and it's nice to get to know the edges of the sword so well.All for less name calling from all including me.The Cowboy
*I don't know why a 20 amp circuit would be a significantly greater fire hazard than a 15 - a frayed wire or overloaded 18 guage extension cord running under the rug on either might heat up (especially with those 2X4's flying around!). Certainly not enough greater hazard to ever bother me - else I wouldn't go into commercial buildings where 20 amps is nearly standard.But 14 being "much easier" and 12 being a waste of money is a bit of a stretch. I suspect that there wouldn't be $20-30 dollars difference in a whole house and frankly - with computers and all sorts of electrical gear, I like the 12 gauge to keep voltage drop down. And you might actually get away with a couple fewer circuits - a much bigger savings than the cost of bigger wire. And you only need one size - somewhat more efficient and flexible in the future.In my work on commercial buildings, all circuits are 20 amps and all wire is at least #10, often #8, and occasionally #6 - when its much over 150'. Now, that does cost more but its explained to the owner and they accept its worth the value.
*Bill,1- I just do residential.2- My inspector didn't make 15 amp breakers an option...No change...no certificate. And yes 5 amps is a big difference...33% easier to trip.3- Yes I did say larger wire is OK and in long runs necessary due to losses incurred.4- Offices aren't bedrooms and in any event all the home offices I have built have had less than 10 amps total plugged in the walls. I do double up receptacles in area of desk....Clients happy...inspector happy....I'm happy....But open to improvements.5- 14-2 for me and I'm sure for DIYers (present topic) is b way easier to work and is not that big a disadvantage in the number of outlets game. My trick of late is a subpanel near the heavily "circutted" kitchen. Saves lots of wire pulling depending on the layout of the home. Lets not get into commercial specs less we digress from helping DIYers and FHB. Is there a Fine Commercial Bulding Site?Lastly, there are "loads" of tricks that save time and wire that I am only just learning about from a good ski friend and ten year "speedy" pro electrician.Don't mean to be turning on the Joe's Grill, and I apologize if it's lit,Jack : )
*Andrew,You're expanding well on what I said earlier...Lots of particular rules involved but it is really much easier than the NEC is to read. Any of us could show a bright guy how to wire one room in short order.Ombudsman....a deserved title.Put out the fires, round up the wagons,Jack : )
*Andrew - please clarify or direct my attention to Mongo's post that you seem to be saying is correct where as mine is wrong.Are you saying that 20 amp circuits aren't permitted in house except in the cases you mention? Could you tell me where? I'm willing to admit I'm wrong but I've never heard of any sections of the NEC limiting the size of a lighting circuit to 15 amps as long as all the materials were properly sized and the circuit protected.And it's every 12' by the code - though this is apparently a common interpretation problem.We should start another thread for this stuff....
*
Bill, I agree with you! No electrician that I know in this day and age would run #14 cable to receptacles. I don't know where the "inspector" got his info, but it certainly wasn't from the NEC. We don't even use # 14 anywhere in our homes unless there are some 3 & 4 way lighting circuits involved. It is just plain foolish to wire a new home with #14 wire. For a few dollars more you can run all # 12 and have a system that is completely upgradable. If you are paranoid about 20 amp breakers , use a 15 amp on the 12 gauge wire, but don't screw up the whole wiring system for sake of a bedroom lamp.
I often see people confused about the 15 amp rating on cheap receptacles. That refers to the current that can be drawn at the receptacle, not the amount of current that can pass through the wire connections. The proper way to wire receptacles is to wire nut all the pass through connections anyway...and then just run two wires to the receptacle. If everyone did this, the amount of trouble you have with receptacles would be very much reduced!
*
Now that I pause to think about it (I hate doing that, it hurts), you're right, the requirement is that you be able to plug in something with a 6' CORD anywhere along the wall -- hence 12'. One of the beauties of existing construction is being able to put 'em wherever you want.
I don't remember you being at all wrong, in fact I cross pollinated you and Mongo to create the mythic Bill-Mongo. I only said 15 amp circuits are "typically" used for the lightweight stuff. Interesting, our forced-air furnace specifies that it be put on its own 15-amp circuit. I changed it over (I guess I read the manual and the installer didn't), but also used an unbroken run of 12-guage wire, given how little motors like voltage drop. The fan motor is rated at 10 amps or so; my guess is they want a breaker that will react sooner when the windings start to roast.
I know many electricians don't bother with 14 guage, but many older houses have plenty of 15 amp breakers and you might as well use the lighter wire, which can deliver 15 amps @ 115 up to thirtysomething feet (and you shouldn't be above 80% of breaker rating anyway). Ampacity is ampacity, either you're over or you're not. And who's going to "upgrade" a lighting circuit anyway? To put in HID lamps for the living room? Also, I recall there was a maximum number of devices per circuit -- 8 or so? I agree the different cost of the two guages is irrelevant.
Personally, I like more and smaller circuits, which is good because that's what we have! And it -is- more difficult to get a couple of devices and coils of 12 gauge pushed into a box without disloging a screw or loosening a connection. You macho guys with rock-hard fingers may not realize it. I think our box is about 50:50, 15 and 20 amp.
Incidentally, is the "use a pigtail" for a feed-through cut in stone, or is it just hoary electrician practice? I've been using the commercial Leviton receptacles ($2 ea v. 30¢ for the featherweight junk) which have pairs of screw-down (not spring) quickwire holes in the back, actually allowing you to put two wires under one screw. Omitting the pigtail, I think, makes the box less crowded and the connections more secure.
I think Steve is now saying, to h*ll with the electrical. Be careful pulling a permit under your name with someone else doing the work -- you can get in trouble, and the question of who's liable becomes more difficult. A house a block from here just got torched in renovation because an electrician made a goof. Imagine paying for renovation and getting demolition instead. The danger is real.
I like the idea of a subpanel for the power-hungry kitchen. But isn't wiring a subpanel tricky somehow?
*G15 amp breakers make my inspector happy....that makes me happy....This is a recent change of his, 2 years ago...I used to run all 12 wire with all 20 amp breakers before that. I like to wire houses with the end user in mind so my rooms are mostly on separate homeruns for their ease in use over my savings. Since the circuits are small, I use 14 wire. I see nothing wrong with this way just different.Jack : )
*Another reason for the smaller circuits is that I tend to shut things off to work in a room, then wander off to put out some other fire. Small circuits leave as little of the house crippled at a time... Hardly ten feet of the house was wired properly, so this has come in handy often. Just killed another one after I got a shock reaching into a wall cavity to retrieve a fish tape. This former homeowner had a death wish ... for me.
*
Steve-
Red's post seems to strike it best - If you enjoy doing the work, understand that you might not save a dime, and have either the cash to rip out a bad job or live with it for a while, then you should go for it.
As to all the posts about the subs. It is reasonable to respect the experience of the subs and pay them what they are worth. Doctors and attorneys don't give out free advice, neither should a tradesperson. But a homeowner with the gumption to learn and attempt their own project deserves some respect too.
We finished our house last summer, using a GC, but sharing some of the load from design to trim. After laying 200+sq feet of tile, wiring for A/V, rewiring the garage and doing some of the finish, we not only have a greater respect for some of the subs, but also a greater appreciation of our home. Plus, me, my wife and kids, had a GREAT TIME DOING IT.
And, the GC and I are even better friends after the experience. The next one he's going to dry in, and I'll finish. These people do exist out there, and the time spent finding the right people will be the greatest investment you can make.
Lotsa luck.
(BTW - I can live with a couple uneven tiles, but the drywall job that I did in the garage looks better than the one the pros did in my living room - you win some, you loose some)
*
Some random comments on things above electrical: I use all 4X4X1.5 or 2 with plaster rings - lots of room; I've had the wire through vs. pigtail discussion before but my inspector "recommended" stripping wire's passing through without cutting and wrapping them around the screw (around here romex is not allowed so I'm using mostly conduit); he doesn't require pigtails on even the grounds but I do them because I believe NEC does require them; I don't believe that NEC stipulates a maximum number of devices - at least receptacles - permitted on a circuit but many local "interpretations" do - like 10 or so; and if you really want to offer safety, why not use 10 amp breakers - after all a 15 is 50%bigger than a 10 - 100% safer than the 20 (so this should prevent 100% of the risk - right AJ - sort of like "payback" calculations I guess)?
*
Jack, I know what you're saying! I've gone through about 20 electrical inspectors in my career and some of them have very peculiar ideas, which in no way relate to any actual code rules,but you have to live with them. I too believe in lots of circuits...basically one or more per room and always pretty much fill up a 40 space box in a new home.
My point is.....you have one chance to wire this house while the walls are open. As you pointed out, you must look to the future. Who knows what you may want to run off of those circuits somewhere down the road. Use of rooms often changes from owner to owner. Basically you have a choice of using #12 or #14 in certain areas. The difference in cost between the two wire sizes is so small that I see this as a complete no-brainer.
I would keep wiring exactly as you used to do. You had the right idea and the right reasons. As I said, if you must use smaller breakers to please this guy, then do it. That's certainly easy to change. But if you have to go back and rewire circuits down the road because you used undersized wire, then you have caused the homeowner a problem for nothing. Using small gauge wiring for main trunk lines went out in the 1960's.
*Jack, I know what you're saying! I've gone through about 20 electrical inspectors in my career and some of them have very peculiar ideas, which in no way relate to any actual code rules,but you have to live with them. I too believe in lots of circuits...basically one or more per room and always pretty much fill up a 40 space box in a new home.My point is.....you have one chance to wire this house while the walls are open. As you pointed out, you must look to the future. Who knows what you may want to run off of those circuits somewhere down the road. Use of rooms often changes from owner to owner. Basically you have a choice of using #12 or #14 in certain areas. The difference in cost between the two wire sizes is so small that I see this as a complete no-brainer. I would keep wiring exactly as you used to do. You had the right idea and the right reasons. As I said, if you must use smaller breakers to please this guy, then do it. That's certainly easy to change. But if you have to go back and rewire circuits down the road because you used undersized wire, then you have caused the homeowner a problem for nothing. Using small gauge wiring for main trunk lines went out in the 1960's.
*
Bill,
I'm "instinctively" (doesn't involve lots of paper scratching math) not interested in overkill or underkill in all that I do. IE- I don't push wires in the easy holes in back of receptacles, (many people do, arguing that they wouldn't be there if you weren't supposed to use same; I've fixed some of these dead circuits,) and overkill wise am not going to start wire nutting/pigtailing a simple feed in/feed out box, or lets get even more paranoid and not cut the wire, just strip a section and wrap it on the screw. Wow wow wow, too much for me, I'll keep doing it my way, will continue to use 14 and 12 wire where I want to....to each his own.
I also receive no benefit in ruffling inspectors feathers; they and the "odd traffic stop" cop love to be treated as if they have the power that they basically do have. Uphill battles aren't any fun, just to save ego. It's not that long a road that we all travel; pick your roads, I'll pick mine. I'm sure alan could add some thoughts to the value lf doing battle verses, say just getting a job that does come with the whole paycheck on a weekly basis. Some battles just aren't worth it though I do respect each individuals right to choose his own.
Electrically living with happy inspectors, clients, and conscience,
Jack : )
*I asked my inspector why he prefers to not cut the wire and his reply was that it was faster. I don't think its paranoid to want to do it faster. So I don't know if thats overkill or underkill. It was the way my inspector suggested I do it though and works fine. I'm neither recommending it or ditzing it - just sharing.
*Bill,OK, that's it.I'm gonna try out the "through wiring/wrap the screw" method right now since the scrap wire pile's getting to big anyway. I respect your persistence just hope others don't think I'll be this easy for them.Off to the test bench,Jack : )
*Bill,My comment's no longer meaningful. At the time it was written, it mainly addressed Elwood's breezy advice -- I have a hot button for that kind of thing where electricals are concerned. Since that time, there've been some thoughtful exchanges.
*Andrew, I haven't responded to this portion of this thread yet, might you have confused me with another?I'm not sure if my wife would appreciate me being cross-pollinated with someone else...I'm sure Bill is a swell guy, but, well, you know...(grin)
*Gee, i thought it was you, and Bill asked me a question based on your post. I can't even figure out how this is threaded now! And I don't know who I would have confused with such a unique individual as yourself.At least you caught my joke.A word on those little spring terminals on the cheap receptacles & switches: I talked to a Leviton rep who said "you can use these push-in terminal, which we do NOT recommend..." I said, wait, why do you make them. "Because the contractors love 'em."Does anyone use the crimp wire nuts? And does this discussion have even a trangential relationship to the poster's question, whatever that was?"A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
*Must have not made it past the "ignerence" filter. I probably still have it in MSWord. I'll dig it out and repost.
*Every field has DIYer's. Some avoid the CPA and use TurboTax. Some ditch the thieving Lawyer (sorry, Andrew) and buy "Ditch the Thieving Lawyer" on CD-ROM for $9.95. How many use a CAD program? Are those that do abusing the knowledge and talent of all the architects, designers and structural engineers out there by using CAD? Most homeowner-observers want to “observe” the subs at work for one of two reasons. For some it is out of curiosity. C’mon, building IS pretty neat. What’s behind the walls can be fascinating. Some want to watch to see how it all goes together. Watching a skilled person in action can be pretty amazing. Others, however, watch to “judge”. To ensure you’re doing it “right”. The fact that most homeowners don’t know what “right” is has no relevance. The homeowner is going to make sure you work ALL day, that you do it the way Uncle Joey said it should be done (He reads Handyman magazine, by the way). Those who “judge” do it because somehow, somewhere along the line, someone they knew got beat up badly during a construction project. They’re going to ensure it doesn’t happen to them. Heck, if someone stands over my shoulder when I'm working, it bugs me. Nobody likes to have their talent, skill and knowledge come under judgement with EVERY MOVE THEY MAKE. Yes, if you do a job and the homeowner is on site, they tend to hover. Part curiosity. An extension of their days as a toddler messing with an erector set. Personally, I'm still fascinated with how things go together. I love factories. Watching scrap metal being thrown in a hopper at one end and at the other end of the conveyor belt a gleaming widget pops out, I think that's pretty darn cool. Other homeowners are, frankly, pains in the rear. Difficult to talk to, difficult to be around. "Do you need to use that much...?" "Can't you go faster by...?" Whether they've been burned in the past, who knows. But they hover, they bother, they tend to make jobs drag on for an eternity. What about the $40 an hour sub who stays on the clock during lunch. Or the lead who fails to bring the proper amount of supplies to the site and runs out to the supplier twice (at 40 minutes per round trip) for an extra box of copper 90’s? All while on the clock? We all agree that there are difficult employers and difficult employees. Asking questions in the "bidding" process can often unmask potential problems for both parties in advance of contracts being signed. If you are wary or unsure, turn and walk. When I pulled my permit to self-build my house, it was my first foray into the construction business. It's a step that can make or completely break a couple. Emotionally, financially, etc. You screw up a 150, 250, or 350K house and you can bleed your savings dry, trash your credit rating, possibly even lose your marriage. You fail and you'll humiliate yourself and forever be the guy that failed at one of the most basic, yet essential things a man (or woman!) must do: provide shelter for his family. You must be prepared. If you're building just to save cash, you may not come out as far ahead as you had planned. In your attempts to squeeze each penny, you'll not buy the $150 sawzall (or whatever) that would have turned 100 fifteen-minute hammer/chisel/frustrating "adjustments" into 5 second "ZZZZiipp. It's done. NEXT." It'll take you 15 seconds to cut each 2x6 with your $30 craftsman sidewinder, struggling to stay on the cut line with a wobbly, overheating HSS blade, instead of plowing through a stack of lumber in no time at all with a 12" chop saw. Yes, these $150 and $300 tools can be expensive, but they are the cost of doing business. Efficient business. These little inefficiencies will tire you. As you tire physically, you get sloppy mentally. Your work gets sloppy. Soon you’ll have to rip this or that out and “redo”. You soon hate your dream house, worse yet, your dream wife hates you. The bank is calling. The lumberyard is calling. A thunderstorm opens up and soaks your uncovered framing. Your subfloor starts to delaminate. Your health starts to deteriorate. Just when you thought things on the job site couldn’t get any worse, the building inspector shows up. And he’s not smiling. Is that the bank’s inspector pulling up behind him? You’re too beat to perform at your "real" job. You call in the cavalry to rescue you, the subs you call have you in a corner. You NEED them. You're broke. You don't make an attractive person to work for. They recognize the pickle you are in, that you’re so concerned with making the schedule for the next disbursement, that they not “waste” material, that they not “waste” billing hours, and why the heck are they chatting so much when they’re on the clock? If your previous slop work is not up to his standards, is it not okay for him to rip it and redo? But all your work! Your materials! The slippery slide has begun. Where it ends, who knows? Could this be why banks often laugh at self-builders? why they don't recognize your need to fulfill that dream? For many, the dream slowly, but surely, turns into a nightmare. There’s a house (generous description) two towns over that the bank is trying to dump. The story above relates how it all came to be. Sad. The structure has decayed, but not nearly as much as the marriage of the hapless, unprepared, now bankrupt couple that tried to build it. Obviously an extreme case. But those cases are out there. Yes, you can save big amounts of cash self-building. You CAN. But you may not. If you have always had that gut-wrenching desire to provide your families' shelter with your own sweat, if you realize that "Hey I can buy that tool, then resell", or you realize that rent-alls are in business for a reason, I think you have a leg up on the other guy. You don't need to buy every tool ahead of time. Just be prepared to spend when the need arises. I think the desire to build for “satisfaction” will keep you going longer than the desire to build to save cash. Do you know your limitations? You need to know what is involved in each building task before you are able to make a minimally qualified guess as to your ability to complete said task. That’s where the reading, the study comes in. That’s where coming on this forum and throwing out a Q or two comes in. Read the darn code. The more prepared you are, the increased chance you may very well succeed. Success is still not guaranteed. It does not take just courage to start a self-building project. It takes brains as well as a phenomenal amount of preparation to do it right. If you haven't read CABO and the NEC, stop, get copies and go do it. Take notes. If you plow through those and understand, continue. You need to at least grasp the concept and the legality of what you are trying to do before you try to do it. You need a spouse that is involved. Someone who remains on the sidelines will sit and judge. And laugh. Then cry. A co-participant will know what's ahead, good and bad, and will help to nudge the project in the right direction. My wife and I easily spent 2 years designing our current house. We started with drawings on a napkin and they slowly evolved. Nudging this wall over there. Slightly wider staircase. Eventually we had a working set of plans. When we relocated and found our current lot, there were more revisions to our previously “perfect” plan to realize the positives and minimize the negatives of our building site. I'll not ever forget the day the first load of lumber arrived. My wife and I, standing in front of the foundation, staring at three 46'-long inch-and-a-half thick LVL beams. Wow. Toothpicks to the pro’s, big pieces of lumber to newbies. Took us about 2 hours to stand them in the pockets and sister them together. But we did it. A simple, basic task to most, but to us, to see that beam in place it was pretty darn satisfying. We continued on, day by day, sunrise to post-sunset. Jobs certainly do take longer, as they should. It took me four weeks to frame my 3200’ 2-story colonial. Sure, a crew of 6 could have come in and done the job in 10 days. Man-day wise, did I go faster? Slower? Does it matter? I was doing it because I really wanted to. Not to save money. Trust me, when faced with lugging 54 sheets of 3/4 ply up to the attic platform for subflooring, it’s not the greenbacks that keep you motivated. I figured if I beat the weather and stayed on track in terms of the timeline for the construction loan I was doing okay. Whoda thunk that one of the nicest things to ever see would be a crew of French-Canadians running around the house on stilts hanging drywall? That was possibly one job that I “technically” could have done, but the pro’s did in two weeks what would have taken me an eternity. Better, faster, neater. Let them hang 240 12’ sheets of 5/8” thick board. I had NO DESIRE to drywall. Zero. That’s an area where, yes, I could have saved around $5G in labor, but I would have hated it, and hated it with a passion. Even if I LOVED drywall, it wouldn't have been prudent for me, on my schedule to do the work. Much too much time would have been wasted and I seriously doubt that I would have made my loan deadline. With the exception of the foundation, we had no problems with the hired pro’s. I subbed out the excavation, foundation, chimney and drywall. I also hired a heating/plumbing gent who installed the oil burner, oil tank, black-pipe, and did some of the rough plumbing and DWV. I ran about 4000’ of PEX and assembled the manifolds for the radiant floor heat. He was the only guy I worked “side-by-side” with, but we each knew what we were tasked to do and I pretty much stayed out of his way, he out of mine. Don’t get me wrong, we helped each other out when needed, but he knew I wasn’t going to be a pain in his rear. On the same note, another heating/plumbing crew that came to bid walked away after the introductory handshake when they discovered I was self-building. Neither party cried or moaned, it’s business. The foundation guy freaked on me, so he was fired after the walls were poured and I hired another to place the basement slab. It took us 11 months to get the CO. We spent the next summer turning mud holes into lawn and gardens, building retaining walls, fencing, etc. When the next winter rolled around, we came back indoors to trim out. We’ve been here now for a few years, we’re still landscaping. This summer we just finished off a bluestone patio in the backyard. We were fortunate. We literally had no screw-ups. Even with two little rugrats running all over, no ER visits. My five year-old daughter became pretty accomplished at setting screws 8” OC when we were screwing the underlayment to subflooring. I’m tempted to dig out and post a pic. Amazing. We were a little under budget on some items, over on others. We got the CO one month ahead of our deadline. Honestly, everything worked out wonderfully. Overall, we plowed any "savings" into better interior items. Learned a lot about construction, learned a lot more about each other. My wife's a sharp one, Ivy-league, Wharton grad, still, the thing she's most proud of is helping to build the house she lives in. She was the key to our success, while my brawn constructed, her brains did the research, kept track of deliveries, and ensured we ordered windows, etc, with proper lead-time so that things would be on site when required. Teamwork rules. Building my house was the maelstrom that has since dragged me further into the construction business. I do understand the yearning to self-build, I'm sympathetic. IMO, everyone should WANT to self-build. For myriad reasons, not all are meant to go beyond the "think about it" stage. The biggest hurdle is convincing the “wannabe’s” the importance of personal limitations, both in the “skills” area and in the “brains” department. We, like others, achieved what we set out to do and came out better for it. Some couples do it, yet struggle through the process and their relationship and finances suffer a blow in the process. Others fail, losing everything. To potential self-builders: Take the most caustic words of some previous posts and realize they are being said for a reason. Tact may be lacking, but there is history, knowledge and experience behind each respondent's answer to the original post. No one, maybe not even you, knows your capabilities, so some preach to the weakest link. Personally, I welcome questions from self-builders and DIYers. Regardless of background, education, and experience in the trades, I believe that if one is attempting to achieve quality construction they have a place on this forum. The only folks we should get frustrated with are those who build poorly, whether DIYers or paid pro's. Posts originated by DIYers often bring up topics that probably would never be broached by those in the trade. They often elicit the liveliest exchange of tips and techniques found on this forum. By ensuring a homeowner knows what to expect from subs, he's getting above-average quality work done on his house. A house that someday one of us may purchase and live in. My wife and I came out way ahead in sweat equity. Way ahead. I love my abode. Every day I pull in the driveway, I look and smile. For the rest of my life, this will be MY house. If for some reason I had to sell and move, it will STILL be my house. Regarding the “Buried Treasure” post, my kids have left more “treasure” and “art work” behind the walls of this house then you could ever imagine. They “helped” build, in one manner or another, their rooms, so they truly are “their” rooms. The construction phase was a time I'll never forget, but one I'd be reluctant to repeat, at least on this scale. Maybe a cabin someday...with no plumbing...kerosene lanterns for light...little woodstove for heat... and a tap room...yeah, that's the ticket! Sorry for the length...
*
Mongo, a few things:
1)Outstanding job decribing good and bad of self-building.
2)Outstanding job on your house.
3)I'm a GC and you nailed down what this forum should be, a place or ALL who are interested in "Fine Homebuilding".
Roger
*
Steve,
The main problem I have with your approach is this: You state that this will be the first of several homes you foresee for yourself.
So you're going to work out all the kinks on this first one, and then sell it to some poor unknowing fool who gets stuck with your woodshop project.
I guess what I resent most is the "how hard can it be" attitude that we seem to be always bumping up against here in the trades.
Jon
*Well said Mongo. (I haven't quite finished reading the post, but I hear the last part of the trilogy is great.)I've been enjoying learning about building for more than saving money, or taking pride in having done the work myself. Few people I know have any idea what is involved, they tend only to notice the color of the paint (... but look at the cantilever! The compound miters! the scissors truss! the homemade windows! I guess if you do that stuff right, it isn't really supposed to be noticed) To give you an idea how clueless the typical white collar type is, when i used to work at a hospital I left a worn-out spark plug from my car on the desk and asked people what it was. No one knew.The worst is no one realizes how much head work is involved. Sweat equity is part of the deal, but problem-solving is too, unless you want to sweat a whole lot more, or perhaps die. Picturing how a load is carried to the ground or how to design a flashing/drainage scheme or whatever is great intellectual exercise. I've loved it, and am doing all sorts of things i swore I couldn't do a year ago -- leave this for the contractor, my notes say. My wife too, who was always treated "like a gril" by her dad, is doing all sorts of things she'd never thought she could do. It is all possible, but it isn't always easy -- this is one area where "knowing what you're doing" from experience and planning is essential.I know the deck is the quintessential homeowner project, and i did end up building a small one. The funny thing is how, coming at the end rather than the beginning, easy (even a bit boring) it is, even after I threw in some stuff like screwing it from below and angling the deck board about 30°. But it is easy only 'cause of the struggles I had with other problems, like how to build a strong and lightweight soffit, over the last year. (Probably would have used steel studs if I had it to do over.)
*Arghh! I forgot to mention -- relying on a CD to do your law is like relying on Time-Life to build your house. No, worse, relying on Ken Starr to check out your spouse. Spend a hundred bucks and get a real will from a real nice lawyer. It is easy to mess up, and probate is hell for the survivors. You never know how things will happen -- who will take care of your kids, etc. (Do I have a will? No, but I should.)
*How many levels will this software indent without blowing up?
*Blow up test....
*Poor Sean!
*Really?.........
*Jack:Around here in VA most of the electricians seem to strip without cutting the black wire about 6-8 inches from the end so they can feed two switches without doing a pigtail. The NEC used to require pigtails in a receptical box so that the receptical could be removed without breaking the circuit to the devices downstream. Why someone would remove a recepticle and continue to power the circuit baffles me. I think they were more worried about breaking the neutral, maybe in a case where one neutral works with two hots ( i.e. 12-3 feeding two kitchen circuits).I have not run into the no 20 amp circuits in a bedroom yet....Frank
*Two circuits on one neutral would exceed the ampacity of the neutral, of course. An easy but dangerous goof. If Frank is right about the logic of the pigtail rule, then the pigtail is not needed. I like the idea of reducing the number of breaks in the wire, each raising a chance of overheating & fire.Maybe maintaining the neutral was more important before grounding was routinely provided at outlets?
*
>>>>>The main problem I have with your approach is this: You state that this will be the first of several homes you foresee for yourself. <<<<<
One thing I've missed here, or maybe hasn't been said. Since this is your first, is it a 1200sf simple floorplan, or a 5000sf monster of a monument to yourself?
Start small!
Also, is it in town? Will immediate neighbors tolerate construction noise at 11pm? Or 6am on weekends? What about the appearances of an under-construction house, for over a year? Owner-builder projects I know that have been succcessful from many standpoints have been on mini-farms or acreage. FWIW
Are you prepared to put _all_ hobbies, recreation, past-times, etc on hold for a couple of years? You can't fish, golf, boat etc _AND_ build your own house.
DP (knows better, but does anyway)
*Approx. 1600 sq. ft 2-story on 3 acres.
*
Two circuits on one neutral will not exceed the ampacity of the neutral as long as the two hots are on opposite poles. The voltage between the hots is 240 volts. This is why only one neutral is needed in a 3 wire 240 volt circuit. Another example would be the service comming into your house, it is 3 wires not 4 wires. The neutral cannot be overloaded without one hot being overloaded and tripping the breaker. I have used this wiring trick many times, like spare runs to a junction box for later circuit additions.
I have to unpack my NEC, but I found my CABO.
Some codes for previous posts:
Table 4202.13 says one may use 15 or 20 amp receptacles on a 20 amp branch circuit.As long as there are more than two receptacles or devices on the circuit.
Section 4204.4 Feeder neutral load......The maximum unbalanced load shall be the maximum net computed load between the neutral and any one ungrounded conductor....
Section 4408.13 Continuity ofand attachment of branch circuit equipment grounding conductors to boxes. When more than one equipment grounding conductor enters a box, all such conductors shall be spliced or joined within the box or to the box with approved devices. ... The arangement of grounding connections shall be such that the disconnection or removal of a receptacle, fixture or other device will not affect the grounding continuity.
Frank
*Neat trick Frank. Am I right that the two service hots are 180° out of phase? 90°? And I do always pigtail grounds, unless there's just one cable in the box. I sense you have more tips to share?
*
Adirondack Jack, I'll take that under advisement. I have been a great admirer of yours, ever since you invented the Canoe and the Chair.
Regards, Buck
*
Frank,
Thanks for adding to the no-pigtail discussion....Though the more I here about it and think about it....seems to add as many potential problems as it may be alleviating?....
More clarification on the
b inspector required 15 amp breakers for lighting circuits.
Required 15 amp breakers for all non-mandatory 20 amp receptacles that are considered to be lighting circuits, such as bedroom wall receptacles; use of 12 or 14 wire OK. It may not be NEC code. a Westchester inspector required me to change these breakers I had already installed as 20 amp to the 15 amp. And by the way 15 amp circuits do trip if 18 wire lamp cord is shorted, it did for me anyway. Please, no one hold me liable for this or any other post of mine!
Have enough liabilities,
Jack : )
*
Remember the comments up the line about somebody being an 'Arse', (We here in California spell and pronounce it somewhat different, but I think you understand.) Well, I looked up 'arse' in the dictionary. And sure enough, a picture, Steve Hazlett, smiling and 'dropping trow', then I noticed something, slightly of to the side, what--?? A blemish, a spot on the photograph? NO!! A PIMPLE!! And it was wearing a name tag--John Rucker-- The Pimple on Steve Hazlett's Ass!!
HVAC?? You've been building homes for 20 years and you haven't figured it out in your spare time. You're Dumb!!
You think a DIY'er can't get a good sweat on the third practice try? That's not a reflection on him, Oh, All Knowing One!!
Hardwood flooring? I've been down that road. Two sandings --Good enough!! Sure, you bet. Water soluble finishes--Better!! Right! Finishing three coats in one day has nothing to do with it!! Right! Stabilize the wood to the room? Three days ought to do it! Sure!! (Need cash now? You got an overdue payment on that truck that's going to get re-popped in the next downturn anyway?)
Gee!! I don't know!! The proper mix for a mortar base?? 1 to 5, or 5 to 1?? Whew!! Tough! Might have to read the directions, or EVEN A BOOK to get that right!! (Of course, for YOU I can see where that might be a problem!!)
Concrete? Hey, you got one right!! I bet one right decision out of four on a job really makes your day!!
Normally I ignore things like this from knuckle dragging Neanderthal mouth breathers like you. (That's not too long of a word for you, is it?) But, this time, with your little vibrator remark, you tore it. I have back charged guys like you right out of business. I have replaced them for being fifteen minutes late to a job, and handed completion to another contractor for time+materials+10%, and since they were far enough into it to cushion the bill, they got nothing, ever!! Why?? Mouthy, know it all bullies with a sense of entitlement, who can't even be polite to a secretary. And I make it cost them money!! But then again, that was in my younger days, when I was less tolerant than I am now. Now, I just occasionally pop a pimple!
Buck
*
john john john......
Some people really can do all the work you have listed and have it save money and turn out pretty good to even much better than the average contractor. Many here have posted such.
Success and quality are possible in first try experiences.
I personally installed a hardwood floor last year for the first time and it's the most beautiful floor I have ever seen. No gaps or buckling, moisture controlled from the out-set etc. I've seen horror stories of huge shrinkage gaps or expansion buckling etc so I asked lots of questions and approached the job with much caution and was very relieved to see how well it looked after a year and a half.
Home building, plumbing, electric, concrete, painting, drywall, tile, wallpaper....I've done most if not all the subtrades, even a couple of heating systems (one had 2000' of 3/4"copper,)....and everyone of these projects was a "first time for me" sometime in my life and all were done as a payed contractor not a DIYer to boot. I will definitely admit that I questioned my abilities in the planning stages but it's like everything else; once you dive in, the results desired sort of lead the way....
"Most" people who want to build a home for themselves have the "potential" to do as well as a contractor and if they don't count their time will definitely save a ton of money as long as there are no huge screw ups.
I do agree it's a hot topic,
Jack : )
*He stole the chair design from Muskoka, north of Toronto, west of the sun. . . you can't get there from here.
*I'm trying to see how many arrows I can get on the top line of the message...Andrew: yes, the hots are 180 degrees out of phase.Jack: Wow, interesting interpretation by your local inspector. I wonder if there were fires started by bedroom lamps shorting and he thinks this will help aleviate the problem. A fault in a fixture on 18 ga. cord will trip a 20 amp breaker also, and I guess the cord will get a little warmer in the process. Maybe the sparks are more spectacular when you cut into 18 ga. on a 20 amp circuit. Back in high school ( waaay back) I helped on decorating for the prom. Some girls were ironing some cloth for something and they wanted to get it done quickly. So they had an 18 ga. extension cord with the triple tap on the end. They plugged three irons into this extension cord and proceeded to iron. I was called over when the irons stopped working. I checked the breaker not tripped. Hmmm... I looked at the extension cord. It was melted in half, with the plastic having covered the conductors so they never touched. It was like you cut it with dikes and heated the plastic and formed it over the ends of the wire. I forget what the circuit rating was, but being commercial, I guess 20 amps. Maybe this is why they only sell these extension cord with 16 ga. wire now.Frank
*
To get back to Steve's question: If you are starting out with the premise that doing more of the work yourself is going to be easier and faster, You are one misguided soul !! That is TOTALLY backwards. The more work you do on this house, the harder and longer the process will be. I suggest you turn to a wise older brother, and LISTEN to people that have more experience than you.
*
Frank - I'd guess the 15 amp is based on think that someone might extend the circuit in the future and assume that it's a 15 amp and that 14 guage is ok. Kind of like Washington believeing they know whats best for us and trying to protect us from ourselves I think.
*There are two ways you do save money - one by not paying labor and the other by the fact if you do complete it you won't have had any time to party, golf, bowl, go to the beach, take a vacation, etc. Though you'll have spent a little more on ordering take-out - I'm sure of that.
*
Yes! Possibly so. But do they mount the chairs IN the canoes up there? (Eh?)
*
Tippy canoes and other great adventures....
Hey you guys, my dad actually finished his fifth canoe project. The latest creation has three seating areas, two places for oars, is constructed with 1/4"x1" cedar strips formed over temporary ribs all covered with a layer of epoxy/fiberglass cloth inside and out. His second boat is my favorite; a ten foot long sit in the middle, double ended paddle, 25 pound, "lost pond" beauty.
From the land of Adirondack chairs
b and
boats,
Jack : )
*No shortage of condescension, here.
*Yes, the thing that is a little annoying is that the first time you do something, it turns our OK but takes a long time; the second time you are a lot faster and approach perfection; the third, it's really not that interesting unless you are getting paid for it, but you do it easily. Focus on the things you will do again and again, not one-shot deals like pouring a slab where the lessons you learn will never be applied elsewhere.But I have to say I love doing the work myself, exclusive of any economic calculations.
*I'll second that, Bill!Until I got the CO, I busted my tail. I kid you not. No neighbors to bother, so if I wasn't away at my "real" job, I was swinging a hammer, sunup to past sundown. Once the shell was completed and I was on the mechanicals, I'd go late into the eve on occasion.I had the kids underfoot for a portion, so there was some play time in the day, but when summer hit they stayed at the beach with Mom. We were renting a beach house during construction, I spent half a day at the beach all summer...Father's Day. Started feeling guilty, went back to the house in the afternoon.There was little to no waste in materials, either. A lot of that due to design, but also being a bit careful with what I had on hand. Was the year's hard labor worth it in terms of just money? Had I financed my sweat equity "savings" my mortgage payment would be about $1600-1700 more a month. I'd need to earn almost $2500 a month before taxes to pay that, or $30K a year on a 15 year loan. I'll take that. Once...I wouldn't do it again, though, not a house this big...too much time away from the kids, to much wear and tear on the joints. I scratched the itch.
*Buck-o & Ad-JackI'll excuse you poor Yank's for not knowing that one doesn't sit in a canoe, one kneels in one. . . no chair necessary, although they are handy to take along for sitting in the shade while the wife runs the portages. One of the many good things that Canadian wives do. . . eh???Uh . . . Jack? I think that second one, 10', sit in the middle, double paddle, is called a Kayak. Run & duck defenceTipp-a-canoe
*Steven: Correct. Most all receptacles are 15-amp rated and all of the cheap ones are. If one wants 12-gauge for its lower voltage drop, you could run 12-gauge to the first receptacle and use a 20-amp one (e.g. Leviton Spec Grade outlets at about $2.50-$3.00 each) and then change to 14-gauge which is all the 39 cent receptacles will accept. But you still have to have a 15-amp breaker because someone might try to plug 20-amps of load into the last receptacle on the circuit. -David
*Patrick,My Dad would be glad to show you his canoes if you're ever in the area or give you a beer to quench your thirst in one of his ADK chairs, but ask to see the ten foot i kayak and he'd be lost.....as in "i lost pond boat."It looks like a "canoe".....We all call it like we see it, sit cause we're relaxin, and kneel rarely.And I wouldn't want to eskimo role that i kayak,b Kayak...not more....Canoe?CanoeJack...i not on a roll
*This is one deep thread. Didn't Steve ask (about 35.2.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 messages ago) about DIY building? And now we're talking, once again, about the phase angle between L1 and L2. In many electric services, your two hot legs are 120 degrees apart. The quick check is to measure the voltage of each to ground and between them. Only if it's double, are they 180 apart. 120v x cos(0) - 120v x cos(180) = 120v x 1 - 120v x (-1) = 120v - (-120v) = 240vBut whenever I've measured between a house's two hot legs, it's about 208v. 120v x cos(30) - 120v x cos(150) = 120v x .866 - 120v x (-.866) = 104v - (-104v) = 208 v
*Sean, It's DIY? Yes, No, or maybe? ARCHIVE TIME......Unless you like playing"Breakdowntime" server roulette? Tryin to take care of you buddy, Jack : )
*The spacing is not 6' OR 12'. The requirement is that no spot along a wall is more than 6' from an outlet. The idea being that most electrical cords are about 6' long.Using the rule literally, you can use fewer outlets in rooms that have corners.
*
Sit, stand kneel -- it depends on the situation. HBC (Hudson's Bay Company, "Here Before Christ") had forty foot freighters, that they even poled together and built decks on (in the big water), like catamarans. They were paddled sitting, or poled like a keel boat. (You can see one like them, roughly, in the opening scenes of Robert Redford's 'JEREMIAH JOHNSON"). Yes, purists kneel. I can't. Thirty years in the Infantry settled that issue. I can't believe that every Boundary Water man kneels in those things. They aren't in a race for God's sake, they're going fishing!!
Regards (Eh?), Buck
*
What good dose using a 20 amp receptacle do on a 15 amp circuit? If your goal is to save the cost difference between bottom of the bucket 15 amp receptacles and a 20 amp receptacle, pigtail the wires in the first box! Personally, I wouldn't use the cheap receptacles for anything.
*Do you mean the electrical inspectors in your area will measure the six feet diagonally or across a bay or alcove rather than along the wall? Somehow, the idea of putting an outlet on one side of a bay or bumpout or alcove less than 6' wide - regardless of the depth - and claiming that meets the requirement is exactly the kind of thinking that earns disrespect for architects among code officials.
*Bill,Whenst earlier I thee post, in reference to "no-cut" methodI clearly missed your " I wire with conduit, not romexclarifier" and of course the " wrap the screw, nocut, no nut" method makes much more sense to me. I like the method and will have to"trick up" my conduit work from now on.Of note to all; wiring with conduit/stranded12-wire verses wiring with romex/single strand "hard-wire" is like thedifference between playing with my friendly "pet-me" mood cat andputting your hand in to the mouth of a very hungry Bengal tiger.Sunday morning, jolted, and ready for Joe's Afternoon BarbecueExtravaganza & and an Evening Dance with the blue devil...Jack be quicker : )
*Jack - You've got to come to Cook County to appreciate the "no plastic" thinking in the codes. The codes are all administered by former union big wigs and it seems that at times their main objective is to keep as much labor in the work as possible. (I feel its counter productive - people just refuse to build and go elsewhere instead - but leave that to another day.) It was only a little more than 10 years ago that only lead pipe was permitted for the water supply. Still, only 4 conductors max. in a conduit (lots of time in lots of small conduits).Its a wonder they ever permitted copper pipe!(They have recently approved the use of pvc for dwv in single families - part of a low-income, scattered site housing project in conection with the United Center. Daley - who had to jamb it through his administration's building department - took a lot of grief from the plumber's union on that one!)
*Bill,Happily living "free" of the unions up in the untamed mountains where we and the deer refuse to buckle in, pay protection "fees." No we all hide well when the union "hunters" come a calling.b The flockless shepherd,Jack : )
*No extension cords under the rug! Please!
*Still trying for more arrows in the first line, maybe I can get my name onto the second line...watch out for Breakdowntime...David:The 120 degrees phase difference is found all the time in three phase services. I haven't found a house with three phase service yet (of course I haven't been in all houses). But if you work on high rise apartments and condos you will find three phase and the 208 volts across the two hots in a wye feed. You will also find the 190 volt high leg hot in a delta feed with 240 volts across the two hots with the neutral at 120 volts to each of these hots. But I degress...We are very far away from the original DIY post...Frank
*Gary:WHAT? The six feet is linear along the wall. What do corners have to do with shortening wall length? At least that's how they do it in VA.Frank
*Ah, Bill you're making me sentimental for Cook County! Political corruption, crooked judges...
*
Please explain to us non-professional electricians why the beg difference between Romex, solid wire, and conduit with separate strand wire.
Naturally I almost always use Romex for my wiring projects. The only time I installed rigid steel conduit was when wiring the basement and screwing the boxes and conduit to the concrete. Even then I ran Romex through the conduit.
*
Extension cords,
Not at neck level either?
Time for more Federal labeling.....everywhere.
Like,
b this is your child; Please take care of....
Jack : )
*Have you seen the old movieb "Ben".......One of many reasons for b different methods for running wire.b Semi-Pro...bably speaking,Jack : )
*Frank - If I'm following this, I believe the question revolves around whether or not a house might have just two legs of a three phase service. I use to believe that all residential was 120/240 single phase but have been told that in fact, in some areas serviced by some utilities, a residential user may in fact get two of the three legs of 3 phase.But please don't delve into delta - we're not usually discussing houseboats.
*Because the National Electric Code isn't? (isn't National that is)In most parts of the country romex is allowed in single family houses and that's what is customarily used and is probably what I would use - would I live in those areas - technically called jurisdictions.It just happens I live in a jurisdiction that adopts the NEC with amendments - one of which simply strikes the chapter on romex.
*Speaking from the Canadian side of the panel (LOL) Gary is exactly right, and corners etc. do play a part. I had this very thing painted out for me by an electrical inspector who thought I had over wired a house.Fusably linked-Patrick
*Wow! Never heard that around here. The only people I have ever had complained of too many outlets were people who thought they looked ugly. Having grown up in a house built in the late 40's and lived in even older homes, I can never have enough outlets!.Frank
*Trying for more arrows.. will my name be on the second line yet?I could see where a house backs up to a business using three phase in a wye hookup it would be easier on the power company just to drop two legs and a neutral into the house. It would be better if the three phase was in a delta (without the houseboat) then the residence would get a full 240 volts for maximum power transfer to A/C and motors.Frank
*I did it, I got half my name onto the second line!
*Hate to steal your thunder, Frank, but if you widen the window you'll find you're still on the first line.
*If Frank's resolution is 640 x 480 his name is half on the second line with the window filling the screen (assuming a 15" monitor).I knew that quick res program would come in handy some day.Rich Beckman
*We normally run this 15" at 800x600/32-bits (1024x768 is possible too). So Frank's achievement is not truly cross-platform, as Sean would say.Can PCs change resolutions on the fly yet?
*Yes, that is what the quick res program does! It is from Microsoft. It is a free download. I used it on Windows 95. I think it was included in 98. Change resolution and /or depth without rebooting.Rich Beckman
*ditto!
*Oh neat. The reason I'm on 640 x 480 is due to some software that didn't like higher resolution. Probably Disney. I'll someday try this download of quick res. Thanks,Frank
*This was in new construction. The local Elect. Inspecter is a former sparky, as most (all?) of them are around here. They know all the tricks. . . the legit one's they'll turn you on to, the bad one's they've got a nose for. 'Overloading' a house with plugs increases the number of circuits, and can eat up future expansion space in a board. This particular guy abhors waste and has got in my face a couple of times for "overdoing" things. . .course he's also the guy that insists on pigtails in plug boxes.I tend the other way because of experience with "under-plugged" older houses that often had one duplex per room regardless of sq. footage!! Of all the guys that inspect a site, electricals are truly intransigent.
*Just repeating what the code says. I install quad outlets where there's likely to be a computer or tv in bedrooms and add a special note limiting the number of outlets per circuit well below what is allowed by code. There are a lot of computers, VCR's, TV's et cetera in todays bedrooms.However, it does my clients no good to use a simplified understanding of the regulation we are talking about. I especially hate to put extra outlets that are not needed into dining rooms.
*I always shudder when I hear an inspector say that "'Overloading' a house with plugs increases the number of circuits" since the NEC does not relate these two. There is no limit on the number of receptacles on a circuit. And if you think about it for a second, you realize that in any given room in a house, there is no more or less load anticipated based on there being more or fewer receptacles.But it is a common misinterprtation and is even subject to local amendments to the code.
*Jack,"2- My inspector didn't make 15 amp breakers an option...No change...no certificate. And yes 5 amps is a big difference...33% easier to trip"Ahhhh, that's 25% easier to trip by my calculations. A 20-Amp breaker would be 33% more DIFFICULT to trip than a 15-Amp breaker. Yeah, I'm a real pisser....imagine me as an inspector.Still enjoying this thread, immensely, tho.Brian
*An A for b B.33 or 25%....should have used intuitive language as I prefer, but was caught up in the "hard numbers" illusionary world.B Back to the future,Jack : )
*I should have been less crypyic: It's my understanding that Code doesn't permit Romex in conduit -- only individual THHN/THHW (whatver those mean).I was interested also to hear that PVC conduit can only be used outside... Verification?And Gary, what is the "maximum number of outlets per circuit." Some here have suggested that rule is a myth, or only found in local practice.
*Well, not exactly. A breaker will trip if run long enough above 80% capacity; similarly, a breaker will tolerate overcurrent for longer periods the closer you are to the rating (I guess they're driven by a bimetal spring?). So a 20-amp breaker could trip at say 16.5 amps, and a 15-amp breaker at say 12.5 amps -- 24.2% easier. And so on. I'm sure someone here can (and even might) plot the relationship...Sorry, this is my only chance to throw one back at the hairsplitter brigade. :)
*RE: Mongo's post of 2/14 34.1.1.1.1.1That is the most telling expose I have ever read. He hit it right on the head! Only wish I would have written it.
*I can't argue with what is in your code but in the Ontario Electrical Safety Code it quite clearly states "A maximum of twelve outlets may be wired on one circuit, except in locations such as the kitchen, laundry, and utility room. Each light and duplex recptacle is counted as an outlet. As a 15 amp circuit cannot safely carry more than 1500 watts continuously it is advisable to calculate the wattage of all appliances likely to be used on a circuit at one time . . ." blah blah blah. No need to go into the 20 amp circuit discussion again, we tend to wire 15 amp, 14/2 or 3 for duplex's and switches.
*I believe that if romex is permitted, whether or not its in conduit is irrevelant. And there are references to protecting it and I would think conduit would do a good job. Now, if romex isn't permitted and wire in conduit is required, then the romex would be a violation.
*The only restriction (in the states) I can recall is 3 watts per square foot for general lighting. This restricts 15Amp circuits to rooms smaller then 600 sq ft (120X15/3) and 20 amp to 800 sq ft. Certainly the room could be broken up into multiple circuits. I don't have my NEC and I'm reaching way back on that...but I'm certain it's buried in there somewhere, or was at one time.A rule-of-thumb that I've used in laying out duplex outlets is no more then 12 per 15Amp circuit and no more then 16 for 20Amp circuits. That would jibe with Patrick's Ontario Code.I don't use 14 ga anywhere.
*Andrew:I do not recall ever seeing a graph of time and current showing a breaker opening or a fuse blowing until after the rated current has been exceeded. The graphs show very different characteristics available such as slo-blow and fast-acting.Now the british rate their fuses differently. I forget what they base their figgures on, but the same fuse will have a much different amp rating in the british system. Check out an older Jaguar sometime.Frank
*Andrew:I still haven't uncovered my copy of the NEC yet...It is a common wiring practice to use conduit (EMT) to protect the romex running to outlets on non-studded walls ( basement walls of concrete or block would be examples). The conduit is attached to the outlet box, but it is open ended at the top where the romex emerges from the conduit and runs along the ceiling joists just like the other romexes. Just make sure you ream the end of the conduit good and staple the romex so it cannot move and be cut and this passes inspection around here.I recall that the NEC has a section that deals with the maximum number of receptacles and lighting fixtures on a circuit. What I recall is allowing 180 VA for each fixture and receptacle. This would mean a 15 amp circuit could only have 15 X 120 / 180= 10 receptacles. And a 20 amp circuit would have 13. Maybe I recall the wrong number.THHN is an insulation identifier for wire. THHN is the good stuff, it has a tough outer coating on the plastic that is higher temperature, oil and gasoline resistant. But it is overall thinner than old T or TW plastic wire, so you can stuff more conductors in a conduit. It is a slick coating, so the conductors pull easier in the conduit also. When I changed the panelboard in my house 20 years ago, the dryer was next to the new panelboard so I ran THHN 10 ga wire in a 1/2" conduit the two foot distance. The inspector thought I had run 14 ga to the dryer. I had to show him the markings on the conductors. I guess all he ever saw was romex.Frank
*Thank you on all counts, Frank. I would worry about the Romex against the cut metal -- I think i was considering using one of those fittings as a transition until I heard the no-romex-in-EMT thing. Do you know about using PVC conduit inside?I'll call our inspector and ask about these issues -- perhaps practice here is not entirely NEC.
*I was going to guess 12 outlets for a typical (20 amp) circuit. I don't have a current copy of the NEC here. I would recommend half that number or lower, unless they are just used for lighting or very occasional use (like an outlet in a hall for vacuum cleaner use). I think you can put "Romex" cable in short lengths of conduit if needed for mechanical protection. If there is a reason not to use it in conduit it is because of heat build-up. When drawing too many amps, wire heats up and needs to be in free air if possible to prevent the plastic from overheating. That is part of the reason you are not to stack too many cables on top of each other in an attic. Romex (Non Metallic Cable or NM) uses a cheap type of plastic that doesn't handle heat as well as some of the more special types of wire.By the way, I don't 14 ga wire except for the occasional lighting circuit. Thanks for the warning guys, I have been known to use the quick connect terminals on the back of outlets often but will avoid doing so in the future. A few days ago I noticed at the Home Depot that the quick connect terminals on the back of the outlets there would only handle 14 GA wire! Are they trying to encourage people to use 14 GA wire for outlets?
*I doubt that the UL would go for 12 gauge spring-loaded terminals. 20 amps flowing through that? I don't think so.You can still "quickwire" with the contractor-grade outlets, all the way up to 10 gauge. The wires are secured by screw pressure and the contact area is much larger than with the springs. Backwiring is especially nice if you later need to rearrange things.
*I thought it was:1. Hot on the left2. Cold on the right3. S*** don't flow uphill (without a pump)4. Payday's on Friday
*
quit hassling my board, arrow gluttons.
maybe you guys broke breaktime last week with your extra-deep threading
;)
*
Should I mention that the Macintosh OS has been able to do this out of the box for at least ten years? Nah, next thing we'll be talking about all that Y2K stuff. :)
Sean, I will try to reduce my arrow consumption. Bad for the arteries.
*
In the construction of my 2-story house this summer I am considering taking on one some of these tasks.
plumbing...no experience
hvac....no experience but a local company will layout the heating plan for a fee.
electrical....limited exp. with house wiring...have done some on aircraft. Would probably try to hire someone to do the connections up to the service panel. Permit in my name.
hardwood flooring....no experience but a pretty good woodworker (cabinets and such..)
ceramic tile....no experience but I have seen so many Hometimes and Home Savvy's etc etc that I think I could do it.
Basement and Garage slabs...no experience but I know a couple guys who know a couple guys who will work by the hour to supervise.
So there it is. Abuse me if you must but I would appreciate any and all comments. I realize this is a big task but the fewer people (subs) I have to deal with the less miscommunication and delays. Thanks in advance.