Background:
I got a quote yesterday from a reputable company. The quote is for a basic screened in porch.
Trench foundation
4×4 cedar posts for support
24″ knee wall
aluminum screens (no windows)
existing patio door
basic shingles
minor electrical
no heat or a/c
16’x18′
removal of existing deck
no need to access the inside of the house (99% of the work outside)
T&G unfinished cedar walls and ceiling.
The quote came in a little higher than we hoped and I know that’s expected. IMO, I would pay what the quote says.
Dilemma:
My DW doesn’t want to look like a sucker (and I don’t either). I’m not looking for a discussion on the quoted price but more a discussion on wether or not negotiations are the norm. Do we come in 10% lower and ask what they can do? Do we just take the quote for what it’s worth and go with it?
From a builder’s point of view, do you expect to give and take a little after the quote is given to the customer?
thanks for the help,
Joe
Replies
I regularly work with customers to get the price down. You just have to be willing to give up something - square footage, do the roof yourself, etc. If they take something out, the cost will go down.
What method works best when the price of grocerys comes in higher than expected? Do you offer the cashier 10% less and hope for the best?
Do you work for a living? I'd assume so as you have the money to screen in a porch. What's your reply when your boss comes in each and every week asking you to accept and 10% reduction in pay? How does the wife handle that?
Perhaps if you first offer to contact the builder mortgage company and negotiate a 10% discount for the time it will take to screen in your porch he'll be more amicable.
I was also going to sugegst you contact his childrens private school but it sounds like you and the wife feel his children shouldn't be able to attend such facilities so I held back from that recommendation.
Good luck and happy thoughts.
Just trying to help here.
Easy there buddy, that's not the direction I'm going.
When I go to a car dealership, yes, I'm expected to ask for a discount from the orignal offer and I don't give a rip about the salesman's kid's school tuition. I also don't expect 10% less car (sure, you can make the seats smaller) or to do some of the work myself (sure, I can finish the brakes).
I'm just asking if it's the norm in the remodeling/addition business to negotiate.
Did he set his price expecting me to come back with a lower amount? If the consensus is that a quote's a quote and I can take it or leave it, then I'm fine with that. But I don't want to miss an opportunity to save a buck if that's what usually happens.
Just trying to help here.
Well, you didn't do a very good job.
Runnerguy
I didn't say I'm trying to help a cheap home owner. I'm trying to help the contractor.
You were simply making a cheap shot. Must be bad to hate your employer so much. It seems you are a cheap HO yourself.<<< 125162.24 in reply to 125162.1 HAve no experience in Tx. Can say when we bought our house, through a very trusted small bank, we were able to cross out some of their fee's. Our RE agent gave us a list of BS fee's and told us to simply refuse.The loan agent was a woman my wife knew from growing up. Wife had babysat her kids. So even though we got "personal treatment", the list of fee's as long.We went through the list and crossed opff the ones the RE agent said we didn't have to pay. Some were removed, some reduced. One we were holding tight against, figured after the bank manager had to come over to "explain", that we really did have to pay.Figured the guy was serious, as he was definitely pissed we were refusing to pay it.Which we didn't mind one bit, or making the old family friend have to squirm a bit in her seat. In the end we knew we got the best deal we could. Our RE agent saved us a small couple of thousand that day, and the bank still sold their mortgage. Bet we didn't bankrupt them that day.I'd think bank fee's, like most things in this world, are location based and change from place to place. You might want to track down an experienced local RE agent and ask if they'll lend a hand for a fixed fee.>>>
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=125162.24
Edited 10/24/2009 2:44 pm ET by Dam_inspector
You were simply making a cheap shot. Must be bad to hate your employer so much. It seems you are a cheap HO yourself.
<<< 125162.24 in reply to 125162.1
Just read the referenced thread. That's perfect!!
Runnerguy
Can you say "hipocrite"? (speaking of jpriest)
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Edited 10/24/2009 5:06 pm ET by FastEddie
going to sugegst you contact his childrens private school
Sorry, but that went right over the top of my head, care to explain??
where is all the animosity comming from ?
the guy just wants to know what to do nextMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You are right. I was wrong. I think we should all band together and make sure any and all contractors get their bids whittled down as much as possible.
I'm going to ask why stop at 10%? Why not 40%. On top of not covering profit and overhead, I'll ask why should the contractor in question be able to cover even his expenses?
If we'll help take away the standard 20% profit and overhead mark up, let's go all in. After all, it reads like the contractor in question is a sunroom contractor, and as the original poster has recently said, they're the bottom of the barrel. All of them appearantly. Seems he's gleamed this gem from the comments posted here.
Cracks me up I'm reading this in the Business Section. A home owner asks innocently enough about how to undercut a contractors bid, and there's a room full of working contractors who are more than willing to offer advice and back up on hos to cut the guy off at the knees.
Nice work done by you and the whole crowd. I'm out and you all deserve each other.
Good day sir!
too bad you feel that way..... i think what you are missing is the individuality of the different situations
the ho asked very politely what his options were
he was told what the range of possibilities there are out there... his decision was to go with the submitted proposal..... how does that take bread off the contractor's table ?
your business plan seems to be based on an adversarial relationship with the homeowners
my business plan is based on a quid-pro-quo relationship, anchored in trust..
i have reduced my price in the last 15 years or so in almost zero situations..... i have reduced the scope in some to get the cost down
i would bet that you could improve your business and your profitability by learning from your peers here on this board.... i learn on an ongoing basis...
it might require an attitude adjustment on your part however
take piffen, for example..... we have to adjust his attitude at least once a week... but then, he is on an island off the coast of maineMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I bet you would enjoy posting on the plumbers site or hvac-talk <G>
I still would like to know what 'children's private school' has to do with anything???
Edit PS: what makes BT unique among building forums is that it is wide open, very few parochial closed minded attitudes .... at least on non political issues
- e.g., you'd not convince some libs in the woodshed to praise beck or RL, or conserves to praise more government or higher taxes.
Edited 10/25/2009 8:16 am ET by junkhound
Edited 10/25/2009 8:17 am ET by junkhound
...working contractors who are more than willing to offer advice and back up on hos to cut the guy off at the knees.
My advice wasn't like that.
Runnerguy
Actually, the question about discounts is a very important discussion, especially if you are in sales or want to sell your services. Money is always a very important element to any job, so it's important to fully be prepared for that type of objection. Hearing the question from a homeowner's point of view can go a long way to educating those that want to learn how to sell more and make more. It should go without saying but everyone has to take any advice in stride and only apply it if it fits into their business method. We know from our sales experiences that we would prefer that a customer ask for a discount. That tells us that they have heard our presentation and are interested enough in using us that they would even bother to ask for a discount. That is a HUGE buying signal. At that point, it is a tightrope walk to the end and if we sit across enough people, we learn which ones really need a big discount or which ones shouldn't be offered one. Its a chess match. When you read some of the previous responses, its clear that offering a discount can immediately shut down the possibilities of closing with some people. A good sales person will have read those signals and know that their best chance at closing is to wait it out. But, others want to sign right there and need a little push. If there is negotiating room in the contract, now is the time to use SOME of it. If the bid is tight, that's okay too. We have told many clients that their particular situation doesn't allow for any wiggle room. The tone and delivery of that "bad news" is important too. At that point, empathy is an important attribute.
Edited 10/25/2009 9:45 am ET by jimAKAblue
Have you done research to know if this is a reputable company doing good work?
Do you know of anyone who has had them do work for them?
Do they specialize in this sort of thing?
These are far most important and preliminary to getting around to costs.
You can ALWAYS find a cheaper job, the question is how cheap of a structure do you want?
Or do you want something you will be happy with?
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
All quotes do not have fluff. Yours probably does if you are dealing with a sunroom installer.
If you want to cut that price by ten percent, you probably should make your counteroffer lower than that. If you are not comfortable negotiating, let your wife handle it. Or, better yet, call your sales rep, ask for the lower price and blame your wife.
That is the "higher power" negotiating technique.
""All quotes do not have fluff. Yours probably does if you are dealing with a sunroom installer. "" From where did you learn that to be true ?
Life is Good
I don't know about Texas, where Blue is, but here in So. Cal. these guys (sunroom installation companies) advertise heavily - all the newspapers, mailers, television ads, big ads in the yellow pages, and a lot of 'em go door to door, they are very "sales oriented", and from what little I know, they have a pretty hefty markup. I don't have any statistics, but I felt the same.View Image my website
Sunroom specialists are typically franchised sales outfits trying to turn volumn with a large marketing budget and doing business on the same or similar model as Jim does.But a simple screened porch with cedar unfinished sounds more like a local outfit., so I don't think that applies to this one.I have been also thinking further on this, The title of the tread uses the word "Estimate" while the first post mentions a "Quote" which usually refers to a firm bid.So I wonder if the OP knows the difference between an estimate and a bid.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I spent 1 year working for a sunroom manufacturer as a sales person.
Left because of the borderline ethics (IMO) they employed in their canned sales policies/procedures, which ironically enough sound just like Jim's spiels.
Company went belly up, so maybe they didn't have enough fluff ?
Or maybe I don't understand the term "fluff"
Life is Good
<<<
""All quotes do not have fluff. Yours probably does if you are dealing with a sunroom installer. ""
From where did you learn that to be true ?>>>>>
dove.... if it's a typical franchise type installer ...there is always negotiation money built in.... it's part of the business modelMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Here's what I've seen happen.
Job is opened up for bidding and 4-5 bids are obtained.
Client looks at bids highest to lowest.
Client then looks at the roster of contractors and calls the one he likes the best.
Client asks the contractor "I have s lower bid of ______ from another contractor but I am most impressed with you".
"would you do the job for the lower bid amount of ____"?
My price is a QUOTE, NOT an offer. So then DO NOT offer me less money to do the same job.
Like someone else said, if you want to pay less then be prepared to get less.
<!---->"Here's what I've seen happen.
Job is opened up for bidding and 4-5 bids are obtained.
Client looks at bids highest to lowest.
Client then looks at the roster of contractors and calls the one he likes the best.
Client asks the contractor "I have s lower bid of ______ from another contractor but I am most impressed with you".
"would you do the job for the lower bid amount of ____"?"<!---->
To which I then politely say NO. For my price you are getting ME, not the other guy. Remember me, the guy you were impressed with? If you were more impressed with me then it should go without saying that you should be willing to pay more for me. Typically this "more" amount is negligible.
what piffin said - look at the intangibles as well.
In today's environment, I suspect it takes a busy (and brave)company to go in with a high bid.
And. if the are that busy, maybe there's a good reason.
So far as I know, there is no industry standard on bargaining, as in, say, auto sales
"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary."
Reinhold Neihburh: 'The Children of Light and the Children of Darkness'
http://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
Thanks
I agree with you and Piffin. I'll give him a call and say it's a go.
Primarily I'm home during the day. I'll just ride the project manager and get my money back that way ;)
Joe
Primarily I'm home during the day. I'll just ride the project manager and get my money back that way
Maybe you could promise not to be home for 10%?
Joe H
Try a negotiation. Maybe you will get a counter offer for a reduced price. Or maybe the price will be reduced by giving up something like the cedar for a lower cost alternative material. You may find that the cedar is not necessary.
"Can you do a little better on the price?" certainly shouldn't poison a relationship. If it does, that isn't the contractor that I'd want to work with.
Right. And if the price is higher than they expected, the contractor can explain why it's higher, or as I mentioned, suggest lower cost alternatives, such as tongue and grove pine instead of cedar.I think the OP was okay with the price, he was just asking if negotiation is the norm, as his wife was asking him.
It's really a simple question, with a simple answer. It could be "No, I've quoted you a tight price and I don't have room to negotiate." Or, it could be; "If you can commit today, I can give you X% off"
I would have gotten 2 or 3 bids from prescreened builders. Not with the idea of going with the lowest or the idea of taking the lowest bid and running up the flagpole to see if anyone else salutes it (speaking metaphorically of course) but with the idea of having competition in a market based society.
I just completed a whole house being the GC and I generally got 3 bids from all the trades. I think I went with the lowest guy two or three times out of perhaps thirty so it wasn't about finding the "best price". Nor did I negiotate to try to get "something for nothing". Sometimes I negiotiated price as it related to scope of work as that's fair. More work, more money, less work, less money.
Also, I think it's poor business to take the lowest price to the guy you really want to work with and ask if he'll match it. Maybe it's me but I didn't like operating that way.
Hope this helps and good luck.
runnerguy
JM,
I rarely if ever fluff a proposal. I present an honest to good # and will stick to it. If you wish to "negotiate" the scope of work, then the price can come down.
I would be looking at the contractors presentation as much as anything else. He ability to be proffesional about it. If you choose to accept bids, try calling each of them two or three times with a question for clarification or something. His willingness and ability to respond will tell a story about what you should expect if you hire him.
If an HO want's me to work for nothing, I would rather stay home and make nothing. The overgead is way lower.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Where do you think he wants someone to work for nothing? I'd rather have you stay home too with that attitude.
If an HO want's me to work for nothing
I was trying to address the question in general terms and not belittle the OP, that is why I structured my staement the way I did. I said HO; not YOU, as in the op.
Guess I didn't do a good enough job for you.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Edited 10/24/2009 9:18 am ET by EricPaulson
I know that. THE HO did not seem to be wanting a free job.
Maybe it wasn't spcifically appropriate in this case but I still think it's a great line:
"If an HO want's me to work for nothing, I would rather stay home and make nothing. The overhead is way lower." -EricPaulson
That's certainly true. I'm not working for nothing either.But, too often homeowners as a question about price, and get shot down here.
""I'm not looking for a discussion on the quoted price but more a discussion on wether or not negotiations are the norm. ""
You are looking for something (the "norm") that isn't there.
Some companies expect to negotiate, some do not. There are no "rules" about it.
We don't do fixed price proposals, but if we did I would include some money for unknowns. So yes, there may be a little "fluff," but it's there for my safety, not for you to negotiate away from me.
You might tell the contractor that you'd really like to do it for $X, which happens to be about 10% less than his estimate, and ask if he has any ideas how to get the price down to that level. He might suggest a few options, including reducing the scope, or working on a time-and-materials basis whereby the risk is taken off him an onto you. Or he might say the price is the price, and you will have to decide what you want to do. In general these days guys aren't bidding stuff high at all. Negotiating is common and expected but it's nothing like buying a car.
Not too long ago, in a fit of sillyness, I told a prospective client that there was some fluff I could cut out. $1500.00 to be exact. I told her that # is what I might normally anticipate in a project of her size to correct or remediate unforseen condition.
I told her I could take it out, but in turn I would be billing her for every little thing that came up that was not in the contract.
She declined the elimination and hired me.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
"Fluff" is not the right word. I wrote contracts for a big corporation that marketed business machines internationally and in their training program they call it "risk". When you write a contract you put in your materials cost, your labor, your overhead and your profit. Then you add a certain wild card amount for risk, based on your best judgement and that assessment could mean the difference between whether you get to keep all that "profit" or if you lose that and then some.
"Risk" quite simply is that thing you didn't plan on once you get the walls open. the problem you have down town or when that freak storm comes through.
From watching contractors coming away from jobs, losing money, just to get the bid, it is clear to me they don't really understand how business works.
BTW there is nothing wrong with telling a customer things went better than planned and you can give them some of that money back at the end. That may be the best word of mouth advertising you can get.
"Do we come in 10% lower and ask what they can do? "
My response would be;
"Sure, let's look at your design, materials and finishes and see where we can make some changes to try and hit your target budget."
-or-
"Sure, let's look at your schedule...if you're flexible and I can work this around other projects during my slow season maybe I can use it as a part-time 'filler' for a few bucks off."
If you're shopping other contractors be sure everyone is quoting from the same specs and providing the same level of service and intangibles (liability insurance, etc).
Bottom line is go with the guy you trust and like the most after you've checked his references. The guy's going to be in your life - and in your pocket - for a certain length of time.
-Norm
Gotta beat the DIY drum <G>
16' by 18' sounds like an under $3K DIY job, 5 or 6 weekends?
(qualifying my response - I am not a contractor)
It's a lump sum quote (not a time and materials quote) with nothing to compare it to other than 'what you had hoped' which may, or may not, have been reasonable. What was the basis for YOUR budget? You can ask here 'what it should cost but the built cost of a screen porch in California vs. the cost of a screen porch in Pennsylvania can be very different for a number of reasons. Around here I think your project would probably cost around $30K - $40k depending on a lot of variables - or say roughly half the cost of fully enclosed heated first-rate space.
This is why people say 'get three quotes' - the spread on the quotes may also indicate how clear, or unclear, the scope is. Less clarity = more assumptions = more 'contingency' for variables.
In years past, a lump sum quote was just that - a non-detailed (usually) cost to do the work. Issues like overhead, profit and contingency were entirely the property of the contractor and were rarely disclosed. In today's market I think you can say 'what can we do to hold the cost down' and expect to get no/low-cost advice, mainly on scope reductions.
In a comparison (bid) situation you can certainly ask builders to quote OH & P for changes, which at least would give you a basis for comparison as well as having the lump sum amounts.
Jeff
I'd say it's fair to ask, or propose the lower budget.
Be ready for the contractor to say no or to say that the scope of work will need to come down.
If he's prickly about it maybe you want to look somewhere else.
Also be aware that if you do get a cut, the harder you push for the price to come down the harder the contractor will look for ways to cut costs. Sooner or later that will affect quality.
Balance. Mmmmm.
j
Of course, you can at least attempt to negotiate almost anything. As was mentioned it would be surprising to see a company pad a bid a lot in the current economy.
Personally when bidding a job, it does depend somewhat on the economy, the customer (i.e. if I have worked for them before and they were difficult,had an insane dog- what is dealing with that worth) , the circumstances of each particular job that perhaps the average homeowner wouldn't consider. Mike Maines pointed out there are unknowns that often creep up in the course of any job.
Yes I have had folks ask me to negotiate, but personally, since I do my best to price to get the job done and make a fair profit, I will not drop my price. This has proven to be a good business practice for me, since the times that I have bid a job lower just to get it, I have regretted it almost every time because good construction is not cheap
It's just wood.
My experience with quotes tends to show two things.
First, problems with the quote usually stem from the way it's presented, rather than the actual total. For example, if the quote listed one charge for 'labor' and another for 'installation,' there's sure to be hard feelings.
Second, you can expect a higher price when you are an unknown. Once you have proven yourself to be a steady source of promptly paying work, that's when the guy sharpens his pencil.
Most tradesmen charge too little; the regulatory / license burden is simply horriffic, and that's why there are so many 'illegal' guys out there. My one-man shop has nearly $10K in annual, mandatory fees before I can even start work- and I'm in what is supposedly a 'low tax' state.
Thanks everyone
Consensus (IMO) - It doesn't hurt to ask, but there's a pretty good chance that he won't budge, unless I want to change the scope. I'm good with that.
I also learned...the difference between an estimate and a bid, thanks Piff, that sunscreen companies are low on the scruples scale and don't ask jpriest for financial advice.
thanksJoe
You can't lump all sunscreens into the unscrupulous category just because one guy worked for a bad one. My comment about asking for a discount from one was only made because they would be more likely to discount than a grizzled old carpenter that already has enough money, who bids them tight right from the gitgo. Generally speaking, 75%, (maybe more) of the contractors out there bidding work will do a little horse trading. They go into the deal knowing that and are prepared for it. Most won't take offense if you try to save a few pennies. I said most. Obviously, I've learned from this site, that there are some who immediately get fired up, angry, disturbed , or whatever at the mere mention of a client asking for a better price. They take it as a slap in the face or an attack against their trade or skills. Of course, that might be the case but for the most part, it is a false assumption. I might have had that attitude at one time or another in my career.
I know people who to try to negotiate EVERYTHING
They are willing pay the full price but they want to feel like "hey at least I tried to negotiate"
I've watched people negotiate rent payment, security deposit, car price, funeral home burial service, contractors bids, dental work.
Happens all the time.
I've also seen things go south.
I've seen businesses who need someone who is good and dependable on a long term basis and they futz around trying one guy after the next and the good contractors don't stick around.
I've seen things go south when a contractor gets the short end of the stick and he comes back in the middle of the night and does damage to the property.
Lots of emotions involved.
As evidence by this thread
Woah....you are talking about something different. I've never heard of anything getting trashed just because a customer tried to negotiate. Could you elaborate a bit?
two or three years ago a friend was flipping a houseshe is a realtor and she hired a guy to remodel the househe worked on it for a while and something happened and things were not working outSome kind of dispute and she asked him to stop working on the house.She told him she no longer wanted him to work on the house.Maybe she owed him money - I don't know.Shortly thereafter the house caught on fire in the middle of the night$10 to $20,000 in damamges.She was certain it was the disgruntled contractorShe told the police what she thought had happenedNothing ever resulted - the police did not arrest him or anythingShe got the house completed and sold it.It was a bad experience for all parties