Replies

1. 
   BillHartmann | Jun 27, 2003 12:19am | #1

   It is forebidden to ask that question on this forum.

   Of course you need it.

   http://www.mafell.de/englisch/produkte/prod_saegen_fsg240k_i.htm

1. 
   RW | Jun 27, 2003 12:55am | #2

   With a 26" blade, three phase power, and 145lbs, how portable can it really be? Who cares. I'll clear a spot in the truck."The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb "      lyrics by Roger Waters

1. 
   fdampier5 | Jun 27, 2003 01:00am | #3

   Mikita has nearly the same thing for less than a third of the price and it doesn't need 400 volt three phase just good ole' 110 volt single.. 

     I've built my house so far with one..

1. 
   jonblakemore | Jun 27, 2003 09:50pm | #10

   Frenchy,

   If you're referring to the Makita saw that I think you are (16-5/16"), then the Maefell has a cutting deth of about 3" more.  That's pretty substantial. 

   Jon Blakemore

1. 
   fdampier5 | Jun 27, 2003 09:58pm | #11

   Yeh,

     I noticed that too, but then again how many people here in the united States have access to 400 volt 3 phase?

2. 
   BillHartmann | Jun 27, 2003 10:04pm | #12

   That is the European web page.

   It used to be available in the US 480 (or maybe 240) 3 phase.

3. 
   joeh | Jun 27, 2003 10:08pm | #13

   Same question though. I've wondered about that too, where are these guys timber framing houses that 440 3 phase power is available?

   It's only in Industrial zones here in CA, and even then not all.

   Joe H

4. 
   BillHartmann | Jun 27, 2003 10:17pm | #14

   I understand that in Germany and other parts of Europe that it is not uncommon to have 3phase power.

   And in the US there some of the mega-mansion developments where they are supply 3phase power. Some I think in the Carolinas where they have lots of AC. Maybe other places.

   BTW, I live in a very residendial area, but I have 3 phase primary lines, but no secondary. I think that I could get 3 phase if I PAID (and PAID) for it.

5. 
   kostello | Jun 27, 2003 10:54pm | #16

   you can get a 3 phase converter in the UK which plugs into a 240v outlet which lets you use 3 phase equipment on regular power

   aleks

6. 
   4Lorn2 | Jun 28, 2003 06:55am | #18

   You, if you spend enough and effort, time can find a converter to make just about any phase and frequency device work. Many times it is not cheap.

   I once had a customer, a Navy man with lots of specialized electronics he got surplus, ask for a 400 cycle 600 volt, I think that's right but it was a Long time ago, converter. At the time most ships used that combination. We tracked a converter down and installed it but it was nothing like cheap. Now I hear that most ships the Navy uses have 120/240v 60 cycle that makes off-the-shelf equipment much easier to use. A bit of savings on that front.

   A bit of history. Back in the 60s, when A/C units were not all that common and tended to be only used on commercial properties or high end homes even in Florida, the units were commonly used three phase power. This is because the the large single phase motors that would be needed to drive the inefficient compressors of the day were singularly inefficient and expensive. Three phase motors, even today, have an advantage in  starting torque, smoothness and efficiency.

   When one of these three phase A/C units was installed the power company usually provided a high leg and the electrician installed a delta breaker. Delta breakers impose some unique hazards and have been outlawed for some time. Some electricians I know have never seen a delta breaker so I used to keep one handy to show them.

   Currently most of the power companies I have contact with will not install three phase power to a residence so be sure to check with your local utility before assuming that you won't need to install a converter to run 3 phase equipment. That said I like using 3 phase tools. They run smoother and are stronger than even the best single phase units.

   OK, I went long and and got serious on an otherwise humerous thread but this is an issue I get asked about, or have customers with issues, frequently so I was primed.

7. 
   kostello | Jun 29, 2003 12:34am | #21

   yeah all the domestic power in the uk is 240v.

   a standard ring main has a circuit breaker of 30 amps.

   the regulations say you can only have one ring main to cover a limited area.

   my house when i moved in only had 1 ring main.

   nowhere near enough power points though.

   eventually we'll have 1 ring for upstairs and 1 dowmstairs.

   aleks

8. 
   JohnSprung | Jul 01, 2003 08:47pm | #23

   What gauge wire do you use for the 30 Amp ring?  Is there any concern that a ring could get an undetected break in it, putting all the load from some area on only one of the two wires?

   -- J.S.

9. 
   kostello | Jul 01, 2003 09:19pm | #24

   i don't know what the guage would be but the conductors have a cross section of 2.5mm2 each.

   ' Is there any concern that a ring could get an undetected break in it, putting all the load from some area on only one of the two wires?'

   don't know. i'm not a sparky, but the regs stat that a ring main can only supply an area upto 120sq yards.

   hope that helps

   aleks

10. 
    BillHartmann | Jul 01, 2003 10:51pm | #26

    If my ciphering is right that works out to #14.

11. 
    Buglehead | Jul 18, 2003 05:31am | #28

    12 gauge solid copper ground wire in modern Romex measures .083" diameter, which is about 2.2 mm, so the ring circuit conductors, if actually 2.5 mm, are in the neighborhood of 10 gauge.

12. 
    BillHartmann | Jul 18, 2003 06:11am | #29

    Go back and look. He listed the AREA, not the diameter.

13. 
    kostello | Jul 18, 2003 10:38am | #30

    well i never would have believed it but someone wqas on the tv the other night using one of these saws.

    they were making a replica roman catapult.

    it was about 40' high.

    any way there was a fleeting glimpse of somone ripping what looked like a 12*12" oak beam.

    he was going the same speed as me when i use my skillsaw in a 2*4"

    aleks

14. 
    IMERC | Jul 18, 2003 10:47am | #31

    What saw??????  Tell more.......

15. 
    kostello | Jul 19, 2003 02:12am | #32

    http://www.mafell.de/englisch/produkte/prod_saegen_fsg240k_i.htm

    its what i started the thread about.

    notice the blade size!!!!!

    aleks

16. 
    IMERC | Jul 19, 2003 03:12am | #33

    Now I remember... Had to change out the key board because of the drool.

    Of course you need it. No question about.

17. 
    ian | Jul 28, 2003 03:12pm | #37

    AND some of those monsters can be fitted with milling heads, turning them into portable planers!

18. 
    Buglehead | Jul 19, 2003 07:15am | #34

    So he is.  I failed to pick up the "squared" and so thought diameter.  Thank you.  Two heads better than one!

19. 
    caseyr | Jul 01, 2003 11:04pm | #27

    In case any of you want to make your own 3phase rotary converter from an old 3phase motor to run all that old 3phase planners and saws you bought in great shape for next to nothing, the following articles can give you some hints on how to build one while minimizing getting electrocuted:

    http://home.att.net/~waterfront-woods/Articles/phaseconverter.htm

    http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00126.asp

    http://www.team.net/www/shop-talk/hm3phase.html

    http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html

    http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/phase-converter/phase-converter.html

20. 
    JohnSprung | Jun 28, 2003 02:22am | #17

    A friend in the Netherlands tells me that they all have three phase residential services there, 240 Volt 50 Hz.  They use 16 Amp breakers.

    As for three phase here, the DWP refuses to sell it to residential customers, period.  Even if you're back to back with a commercial zone, and it's right there on the pole.

    -- J.S.

21. 
    BillHartmann | Jun 28, 2003 07:47am | #19

    John

    In the UK the standard is 240 (and I believe single phase).

    But they run a "ring circuit". I have forgotten, but I think that they are breakered at 30 amps, but it might be 20.

    If it is 30 amps then they run the equivalent of #12 and it is in a loop so that both the start and end are back at the pannel on the same terminal.

    Then the plugs have fuses appropriate to the size of the load.

    Basically it makes each recptacle into a sub-pannel.

    Even a large house will only have about 4 of those circuit, in addition to any used for the hobs (stove tops), ovens and the like.

22. 
    jhausch | Jun 28, 2003 02:59pm | #20

    Ring Circuit, Fused Recepts . . . interesting.  Just when you think there is only one way to do it. . . .

    I work for a company that sells stuff for factory automation.  For three phase power when only single phase is available, variable frequency drives are a good way to go.  Small (oh, say, 1/4 up to to 2 or 3 hp) VFD's are getting pretty darn cheap.  Issues with using them for a piece of shop equipment are as follows: 

    VFD's can throw some pretty high voltage spikes at a motor.  It has to do with the way they take in AC power, put it on a DC bus, and then meter it out to the motor as a digitally created AC sine wave.  It is recommended that you use a VFD with "Inverter Duty Rated" motors.  They have heavier insulation on the windings that can hold those spikes where they belong.  You can help this by putting a load reactor between the drive and the motor (it's like a 1 to 1 transformer) but it's always a balance to decide what to do (law of diminishing returns, at what point do you say "screw it, I'll just buy a single phase motor . . .")

    Inverter Duty motors also have the ability to throw off heat much better.  The typical piece of shop equipment has a TEFC (totally enclosed, fan cooled) motor and that fan needs to be spinning at "base speed" to work well. 

    That being said, if you use a VFD to run your 3 phase motor, it is best to just use it as a "soft starter" and always run the motor up to base speed (1800 or 3600 rpm in most cases).  You can set a nice gentle ramp (say, 2-3 seconds) to get up to speed and the lights won't flicker when you start a motor; you can set a decel ramp too so the blade is brought to a stop quickly.

    I am using a VFD on an old piece of 3 phase equipment in the shop now.  The motor housing is part of a large casting that is an integral part of the machine - swapping out the motor is not an option.  I may eventually pop through the winding insulation, but for now she works OK. . .

    I know that there are "roto phases", true soft-starters, and other ways to brew up 3 phase with capacitors; however, IMO, vfd's are usually "on the shelf" at automation distributors these days and some models are built in such a way that they do not have to be mounted in a specially made electrical enclosure.Steelkilt Lives!

23. 
    KGambit | Jul 19, 2003 04:46pm | #35

    As any woodworker/carpenter/construction guy knows. You can't use "do I need it?" as a criteria for buying a new tool. Whether or not you'll even ever use it is besides the point! For all you confused people out there, I will give you the listed reasons for buying a new tool straight from "The Man Bible" Chapter 35 Section 72 Subsection D Paragraph 23 states:

    You simply buy a new tool because:

    a) It's there

    b) You can

     I hope this has cleared up any questions any of you may have for buying new tools, and hopefully relieve some of the guilty feelings you may have about purchasing that new tool with the money you should have spent on a new dishwasher for your wife.I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!

24. 
    joeh | Jul 28, 2003 07:46am | #36

    Man, I bought a big Shimano reel just cuz of the neat noise when I turned the crank.

    Oh, and it was shiny too. Can't forget shiny.

    I'm sure the fish were impressed too.

    Joe H

25. 
    KGambit | Jul 29, 2003 02:35am | #38

    Joe, finally someone that understands how and why to buy a new tool. I checked the "Man Bible" and in section 147-B it does list "Shiny" as a reason to purchase just about anything!.I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!

26. 
    IMERC | Jul 29, 2003 02:51am | #39

    Section 153- D says dull and looking for a good home.

    We are still cool.

27. 
    KGambit | Jul 29, 2003 03:19pm | #40

    LOL  :)I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!

28. 
    mitch | Jun 29, 2003 04:14am | #22

    "do I really need it???"

    DON'T TALK CRAZY MAN!  What kind of a durn fool question is that?  Where would our economy be today if we all went around asking stoooooopid things like that?  You're just lucky this is online forum- you'll be taking your life in your hands if you ever say something like that on a jobsite (or around my wife).

    m

29. 
    kostello | Jun 27, 2003 10:52pm | #15

    i think that big saws like this get used in factories for trimming glulams and other big timbers.

    aleks

2. 
   MisterT | Jun 27, 2003 03:40am | #7

   Clear a spot IN the truck??

   HELL mount it on the plow hitchMr T

   Do not try this at home!

   I am an Experienced Professional!

1. 
   RW | Jun 27, 2003 03:45am | #8

   You know, someone told me I needed to get a ladder rack on that beast. Hmm, I wonder if I'd still have clearance under the overpass? Thus far, the worm drive comment wins."The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb "      lyrics by Roger Waters

2. 
   JohnSprung | Jun 27, 2003 01:50am | #5

   OK, so that's the sidewinder.  Now what about a worm drive?  ;-)

   -- J.S.

2. 
   CAGIV | Jun 27, 2003 01:07am | #4

   Need?  since when has need ever been an issue when buying tools?

   Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.

3. 
   Rugby | Jun 27, 2003 03:07am | #6

   View Image Them's just little people.  Where's Gulliver?  ;)

4. 
   SamT | Jun 27, 2003 07:11am | #9

   Oooooohhh... A tool...I need it!

   SamT

   Sleepless in Columbia.
   Diurnal rhythm? What songs did they do?

5. 
   TrimButcher | Jul 01, 2003 09:52pm | #25

   Who needs that little dinky thing?  I just turn the Rockwell table saw upside down and slide it over the beam that needs chewin'...  ;-)

   Regards,

   Tim Ruttan

   P.S. Looking at that saw was the best laugh-out-loud I've had in more than a week - outrageous!  Of course you need it...

   
   

   ---

   Edited 7/1/2003 2:54:04 PM ET by TRIMBUTCHER