Replies

1. 
   junkhound | Oct 10, 2004 07:32am | #1

   The other side of the coin is that there are an awful lot of "pros" out there now who do crappy jobs (most everyone here not in that category).

   For the first time in 91 years, my mother's house got painted by "pros" as I'm 2000 miles away (Pop died last Jan) - made me gag when I saw the crap paint job ($2K for a single story, 26 ft by 24 ft house) - pressure washed in places so hard the siding was splintered, and in others where there were chips fell off within 2 weeks. This is probably the LAST time I do not DIY!

   I DIY 'cause nobody can do it better. Not even to mention cost.

1. 
   sharpblade | Oct 10, 2004 09:01pm | #8

   This is a funny thread. I've had the other end of hte "help you" spectrum, where I'm called for a job that involves some painting, and first thing the client(s) present s me is a couple dozen color samples and goes "what do you think?" . Hey I'm just a contractor, not a freaking interior decorator, don't have to live here, you figure it out, I only slop it on. I think there's a slight conflict of interest helping them pick the color, I can do the best/cleanest job possible and if they don't like the color it will reflect poorly on me.

   The other one is a case where there is flexibility in the choice of material, either contractor or client could do it within some parameters. When asked what they want , "Oh we're clueless, you go ahead and get what you want". I like these people :-)

1. 
   DANL | Oct 10, 2004 10:18pm | #9

   This is slightly off the subject, but I did a painting (art work) on commission for a couple. Wife told me what she wanted a picture of, so I presented a colored sketch to her. She wanted more flowers and less leaves, a more rounded vase, and more blue. I asked what I should put in the background and she says, "Oh, you're the artist, you decide." :-]

1. 
   sharpblade | Oct 11, 2004 05:30am | #18

   LOL, God bless her :-)

2. 
   xMikeSmith | Oct 12, 2004 04:00am | #35

   sharp... just  a note.. about colors and decorating... if you can get $400 for painting a room.. or $1000 for painting the same room .. which would you prefer?

   hmmmm.....

   i've got a painter friend who can get the $1000.. does all the time.. know why.. because he puts the customers at ease...

   he can help them select the right colors.... the  right trim color.. everything..

   you should think about some basic color  training..

   your Paint supply can get you on the right track..

    if you're going to paint for the next 20 years.. you ought to make it worth your whileMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

2. 
   maverick | Oct 11, 2004 12:19am | #10

   sounds familiar. I hired a painter friend to pressure wash and stain my house. After the first day it was clear the guy could not work on his own. He pressure washed the pulp out of the area where he started then proceeded to stain it the same day.

   It cost me a week off from work. There are so many clowns out there who claim to be professionals but cannot work unsupervised.

   Edited 10/12/2004 8:07 am ET by maverick

1. 
   scottyb | Oct 11, 2004 12:29am | #11

   Before I went Union and can't do side work anymore,I would charge double.After they picked their jaw off the floor I would tell them that I would be watching them half the time to make sure they were doing it right.

   On the otherhand were they to do the mindless work (cleanup,moving material,etc)Icould and would knock $$ off the price.

2. 
   gordsco | Oct 10, 2004 09:43am | #2

   "I will be abel to give you a hand".

   Sure why not? I'm still going to charge the same and if they learn something along the way, all the better. If they suck, fire them.

1. 
   SteveInCleveland | Oct 11, 2004 05:27pm | #30

    

   "I will be able to give you a hand".

   Reminds me of an old sign of my father's that I had hanging in my workshop.

   LABOR RATE: $ 40.00 per hour

                         $ 50.00 per hour if you watch

                         $ 60.00 per hour if you help

   "Those who are citizens of God's kingdom are best equipped to be citizens of the kingdom of man"  -- St. Augustine

3. 
   DanT | Oct 10, 2004 01:34pm | #3

   I used to be a commercial building maintenance super.  After going into business an old high school friend of my wifes (not that kind) called and wanted some work done on a house he had bought.  

   He is an educated man and heavy into politics.  He proceeds to tell me how he thinks it ought to be done and I listen to him.  Then go home write up a quote describing how I am going to do it.

   My wife sees this and asks "doesn't it make you angry when people want to act as though they know your job better than you?"  I said that for 20 years I had operated buildings for educated men who felt the need to let me know frequently that they knew my job better than I.  But they hired me.  And so did this one.  DanT

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 11, 2004 02:59am | #14

   same deal

   I'm pretty straight forward andf honest with them and still get the work.

   I'll always remember one job where a repeat customer was showing me a bathroom he wanted remodeled and I noticed the door entering it was quite a piece of work - in the bad way - so I asked if he3 thought I should rehang it to fix all the mistakes that "Some lousy beginner did screwing up this door hanging job"

   He said that "No, Things like that are part of what gives this old house some of its 'character', don't you think?"

   "Whatever"

   I found out later from someone else that he was the one who had hung that door, LOL. he didn't admit it and didn't take offense.

   There was another couple who wanted to 'help' so I said sure, if you do what I assign to you to do.

   I managed to keep them busy pulling nails out of used 2x4s for 'blocking' and by sending them to the store on errands. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

4. 
   seeyou | Oct 10, 2004 01:50pm | #4

   "I will be abel to give you a hand".

   When they say that to me, I tell 'em "Great, I'll need some help cleaning up." Never had anyone help me yet.

   I invented the dust pan.
   

1. 
   mikerooney | Oct 10, 2004 03:29pm | #5

   I tell them: "Fine. Go out to the truck, and get me a 'Henway'". 

1. 
   toledo | Oct 10, 2004 03:45pm | #6

   you don"t send them after the Dickfor?

1. 
   mikerooney | Oct 10, 2004 03:51pm | #7

   I actually told the last one: "I have this blood sugar thing, and can be very abusive." 

5. 
   Sasquatch | Oct 11, 2004 12:34am | #12

   I have worked the last two jobs under these conditions and it does slow me down a bit.  I consider it a chance to hone my play-well-with-others skills.  I get to learn something from the HO too.  I don't mind if they have a better idea, because, in the long run, I insist on meeting my own quality standards, even if the approach caters a bit to the HO's experience.  I am actually able to get along quite well with these folks.  I also get lots of tomatoes, peppers, steaks, bacon, and other things that are plentiful.

   Les Barrett Quality Construction
1. 
   DanT | Oct 11, 2004 12:49am | #13

   Just reading the posts again and remembered a deal a couple of years ago.  I had a guy call that wanted to rebuild a wall on a large old chicken coop.  He wanted it framed, sided and some new windows installed so he could use it as a workshop.

   He also wanted to "help".  I said he could help my son with demo if he wanted but had to listen to what we said or the roof might come down.  He was great.  Worked hard, hauled off all the debri to a burn pile and burnt it.  Kept up. 

   Saw him a few months later and asked how everything was.  He said he really appreciated the new shop space.  Everthing fit as he had hoped etc. etc.  But in the future he wasn't sure he would help anymore.  I said " hey you did a great job, it was no problem".  He said "yeah Dan thanks but I could hardly move for a week!"  DanT

1. 
   Sasquatch | Oct 11, 2004 06:18am | #21

   I have had a sense of guilt over my current HO's medical problems.  He has great intentions and just wants to help.  Unfortunately, he has spent about 1/3 of the last three weeks in the hospital for various injuries.  When he gets out of the hospital, he jumps back into the work.  I have told his wife that I need him to be safe.  He just wants to work on the house. We can't keep him off the job.  While he was taking his grandson to the Billy Graham event here, I managed to get some of the tricky work done.  Tomorrow, he will be back and I have some tasks picked out for him that will keep him out of harm's way.Les Barrett Quality Construction

1. 
   IMERC | Oct 11, 2004 06:36am | #22

   Is he getting hurt on the job????

   Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

   WOW!!!   What a Ride!

1. 
   Sasquatch | Oct 11, 2004 05:07pm | #29

   He developed a pinched nerve shortly after the project started.  I think it may be because he was shoveling a pile of gravel we used for the drain system on the foundation.  Once the docs got hold of him, I think they did the rest of the damage with various meds, that is, sickness caused by a pain killer that did not agree with his metabolism, and so on.  If you have HOs work with you, it is always good to make sure they do not do anything strenuous.  For instance, I asked him not to help me on the roof.

   Another guy I worked for is 82, and he was with me throughout the entire project.  I would let him help me carry a board and so on.  He wouldn't sit back, relax, and watch from a distance, so I just got used to a partner.  I'm going back to do a third project for him as soon as I finish the one I am on now.  He tells lots of good stories.Les Barrett Quality Construction

6. 
   e2canoe | Oct 11, 2004 03:31am | #15

   It is so hard to find real pros that I did a lot of the renovation work on my 80 year-old house myself.

   I hired three times only:

   1. Drywalling & painting.  Mud job was sloppy and, worst of all, I suspect he didn't prime in spots.  Paint peeled off some areas after a month.

   2.  Bricklayer.  This was the worst!  I installed a 5'X8' picture window.  Looks beautiful.  Then hired a bricklayer to put bricks back around the window.  The idiot mixed the wrong pigment with the morter and it looks awful against the old morter.  And worst of all, he WIPED THE WINDOW OFF TO REMOVE THE MORTER DRIPS!  Got all kinds of scratches on the glass that my wife curses about everytime she looks out that window.  Tried chasing him down and gave up.  From the look of his truck there is no point in suing.

   3. Landscaping.  Guy was supposed to replace sod which had gotten infested with a weed (Creeping Charlie).  He replaced topsoil but in the process regraded so that the soil now covered 8" of my fence posts.  Prior to job the soil was just below the concrete post bases but now the soil was up the post 8" and the bottom rail of the fence was about 4" underground!  I came home from work and blew my top when I say this.  Called him at home and told him to come back, remove all the sod, remove the extra soil and resod.  He had the nerve to tell me that that would cost me extra.  In the end he did it.  Still fuming about it.

   That's why I do the work mainly myself.  Takes me about 5 times longer than a pro but the job is good.  With books, the internet, a couple summer jobs on jobsites and friends in the business, there's no reason why a DIY job can't be as good or better than "professional" work.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 10/10/2004 8:33 pm ET by e2canoe

1. 
   DougU | Oct 11, 2004 03:49am | #16

   Takes me about 5 times longer than a pro but the job is good. 

   Just because some people charge does not make them pro's.

   A pro does it right, on time and for a fair price! I suspect you haven't hired many pro's.

1. 
   curley | Oct 11, 2004 05:09am | #17

   True last statement.  I hired a man to drop a large tree and trim another. I was thoughly impressed. I asked if he needed me to move things out of the way and his reply was everything would be in a 12' round pile. He worked from the top down throwing the branches in the pile-lowering the larger logs with a rope. Just amazing. Its just hard sometimes finding the real pro.He charged me $600 for 1 hr work ( I had to do the clean up) but worth every penny

2. 
   TOOLS1 | Oct 11, 2004 05:45am | #19

   e2canoe

   I am sorry you had such trouble with the people you hired. But I must ask. Did you ask for references? Were these the lowest bids you got?

   I have no problem with the Do it yourselfer. I just cant understand why they call me. Then brag that they could do it them selves. Then offer to help me.

   Kip

1. 
   e2canoe | Oct 12, 2004 03:02am | #33

   Got references (or looked at past jobs) for two of the three.  I NEVER go for the lowest bid (unless it happens to marginally lower than the others).  However, I gotta tell you - in my part of the country one is lucky to get guys to NOT "no bid" for small jobs.

3. 
   Homewright | Oct 11, 2004 01:35pm | #24

   That's why I do the work mainly myself.  Takes me about 5 times longer than a pro but the job is good.  With books, the internet, a couple summer jobs on jobsites and friends in the business, there's no reason why a DIY job can't be as good or better than "professional" work.

   I'd have to take exception to your assessment about how a diy'er can be as good or better than pros simply because none of the resources you cite can educate you on the physical process of most of the work in remodeling.  Mudding and taping in the hands of a pro looks so easy but when a diy'er tries their hand at it, they come away looking like the Pillsbury dough boy.  And the mud they put up looks like the frosting on little Bobby's birthday cake.  Leveling a floor or removing a load bearing wall each have details not covered by books or the internet not to mention each job brings it's own circumstances which an experienced pro can take into account before tackling the project.  It's this overconfidence based on insufficient information that makes diy'ers dangerous to themselves and their homes when they get the wild hair to do something they don't want to pay for.  Often times they're forced to accept, "it's good enough for who it's for" after they do the work.

   Several years ago I thought I'd try my hand at consulting for diy'ers.  I got a referral from a contractor I worked with and went to meet the guy.  He wanted a brand new kitchen from the floor up.  New wiring, new gas line, upgrade plumbing, install a pocket door, hang cabinets, set tile, countertops, the whole smear.  I asked what experience he had and he answered.  "I built a fence once."  So I worked up a price and outline for him to proceed with.  By the end of the first day, he called me and asked me for a price to do the work myself with him helping.  So I gave him another price and said I'd be over at the first of the next week.  By day two on the job, I had run some wiring up a post to handle the soffet lights he wanted.  I drew in a red marker the area of the post NOT to nail, explained why and told him to nail off the post.  His very first nail was ON the red line and sure enough, he cut the wire.  The project went on in fits and starts for another month and it was a process of two steps forward, one back the entire time.  I hung with it though and finished him up only to have him refuse to pay me at the end.  I had to do some arm twisting to get my money but the whole experience ended my idea to take on anymore diy'ers. 

   The moral of the story is a little information is a dangerous thing.  That's all you're going to get reading or watching the sterile diy shows on TLC.  Nothing compares to getting your hands dirty and learning the trade the right way.  Complain all you wish about contractors but you get what you pay for.  Hire a handy hack, get a hack job.  Hire a pro and you'll be satisfied.  The diy'er who can do professional grade work is more the exception than the rule...    

1. 
   e2canoe | Oct 11, 2004 03:14pm | #26

   Somehow I knew my post would get a few responses ;)

   The point I was trying to make was that there are so many guys out there who claim to be "pros" who are not.  I'm better off doing it myself compared to those guys since I'll take the time and care to do it right (and if not "right" at least better than these amateurs would do it).  It is really frustrating for a HO to get screwed time and time again by these guys (who, I suspect, in most cases have good intentions but are simply not properly trained - e.g. "handymen").  To guys like you who visit this forum and are the real McCoy, it is easy to say "why not hire the pro?".  But for the average HO, it is hard to determine who is a real pro.  I got a reference for the drywaller.  Now I suspect that that "reference" was a buddy of his.  I went and saw a job that the landscaper did and it looked good - he still did a bonehead thing on my job.  And, OK, as for the mason, that was my fault - I didn't ask for references and he turned out to be an idiot for wiping morter off a glass window with a rag.  I let my guard down at a busy time and just hired him figuring that he couldn't screw up such a small job.

   And even if you can find a real pro, in my area where there is a lot of new home construction going on, they are booked many months ahead and usually "no bid" small jobs that the average HO has.

   I have another job to do at my house (a stone wall in the front yard).  I have been spending the last 2 months looking for stone masons, getting quotes and checking references.  Anyone know a good stone mason in the Ottawa, CANADA area?  If I get screwed again I'm selling the house and moving into an apartment building! :)

2. 
   e2canoe | Oct 11, 2004 03:35pm | #28

   Oh, and about your point on the books and fluff shows like Hometime.  I agree 100%.  I think I overstated the value of those resources.  I have some of those books and they can't teach you the tricky bits that one can only learn by doing.  But there ARE SOME good books out there.  For instance, here are my favorites from my bookshelf:

   1. Canadian Wood-Frame House Construction, Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation.  Great resource.  Covers the basics of home construction with super valuable tables like nailing schedules, span tables, etc.

   2. The Doorhanger's Handbook, Gary Katz.  Good detail and tips & tricks.

   3. Electrical Code Simplified, P.S. Knight.  Fantastic reference book for DIYers doing residential wiring in Ontario, Canada.  Read it cover to cover and then rewired my whole house.   Passed the rough in and only had one thing to fix at final inspection (he told me to put a bonding wire between gas pipe and cold water pipe).

   With some good books (there aren't many) and plenty of hands on practice and some experience working with or consulting pros, I think that a DIYer with an aptitude for building can do a good job.

1. 
   Homewright | Oct 12, 2004 01:53am | #31

   I'm by no means denigrating all diy'ers and your statement about having an aptitude is something I totally agree with.  It's not rocket science but there's still a lot of information necessary to know the job.  I've just had too many folks stop me in the big box stores when I'm wearing a tape (don't go in with a tape anymore) trying to get information about something way over their heads.  Then hearing the often times idiotic advice from the 'pros' at the box stores just grinds my grits. 

   Between the diy craze and the south of the border influx, it's not hard to understand how the layman's distinction between pro and handy hack can get blurred.  Nonetheless, much work is derived from people messing up their projects only to call in a pro to fix the problems.  You're not the average diy'er in the fact you sound more experienced than most.  Unfortunately most should just watch their shows and build simple projects in their garage without getting into the heart of construction work on their own.

   BTW, those are some good resource books you have... 

4. 
   FastEddie1 | Oct 11, 2004 03:00pm | #25

    I installed a 5'X8' picture window.  Looks beautiful ... Got all kinds of scratches on the glass

   They sell this wonderful stuff called visqueen and masking tape.  It does a great job of keeping things clean during construction.  And it's cheap.

   Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!"  Then get busy and find out how to do it.  T. Roosevelt

1. 
   e2canoe | Oct 11, 2004 03:18pm | #27

   The so-called mason did the job while I was at work.  I got home just in time to see him finish up and didn't notice the scratches until the next sunny day.  I just ASSUMED he had protected the window.

7. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Oct 11, 2004 05:59am | #20

   Kipherr, you've reminded me of two of my favorite stories:

   back in early 89 a guy walks up and asks for work. I question him a bit and I find out that he's a auto design guy (cad) and wants to work on a crew so he can learn how to build houses....because he wants to frame one for himself. He tells me that he will work cheap.....as low at $10 hr or something like that (been a lont time). He seemed pretty intelligent and had the time (layed off), so I offered to let him work on two conditions: 1) he wouldn't have to pay me, but I wasn't going to pay him 2) he had to come every day and not be late or leave early.

   We were starting a new house in  few days and he showed up on time every day, and stayed till we were done.

   I later did some roof work on his house. It was a win win experience.

   Story #2) in  fall of 89 I got hooked up with a new "builder". He was a successful business man who had just sold 45 Leather outlet stores  and was going into the building business. His first group of basements included his house...about 6000 sf.

   Anyways, the first day, we were working on the joist and he walks up and asks me if I would let him work on the crew. He said that he wanted to "learn the business from the ground up". He also asked me how much I would pay per hour. I told him, that I wouldn't pay him a nickel, but that since it's his own house, I'd be glad to let him work for free. "Great" he says, "I'll see you tomorrow morning".

   The next day, he shows up with new bags, a new hammer and tape and a new chalkline, just like a stone cold rookie would. "What do you wan't me to do" he asked enthusiatically. "Well" I replied....."The deck needs to be nailed off....heres the nails, put them every 8"oc". In those days, we nailed everything by hand and we used 8d ring shank nails. It was hard work, even for skilled pounders, but this office guy struggled on till lunch.

   He got up at lunch and told me he had to get to a meeting.

   The next day, he showed up in obvious pain, suffering in every part of his body, especially his hand and hamstrings. He says "That's tough work...I've learned enough, I won't be helping any more!"

   As he walked away, I mentioned...."Oh by the way.....if that floor squeaks.....DON'T CALL ME....YOU'RE THE ONE THAT NAILED IT!"

   Goll dang I used to be a big D**k!

   blue

   If you want to read a fancy personal signature...  go read someone else's post.
1. 
   OregonBob | Oct 12, 2004 02:58am | #32

   As a DIYer from a long line of DIYers, I just have a couple things to add -

   When I was younger, I used to like to change the oil in my car.  Not because I loved changing oil, but because it made me feel more like the car was "mine".  I think the folks that want to help want to feel like they've at least made a contribution.  It makes the place somehow more "theirs".

   I'll hire subs when I need to, but (as most of you know) sometimes with remodeling it can be difficult to schedule.  You finally get the cabinet guy to come, and he discovers a problem with the wiring, and he won't or can't go any further.  So, you wait two weeks to get an electrician and by then, the cabinet guy is two weeks out...  He comes back and won't do the doors til the sink is in, and the plumber is two weeks out.  Understand what I mean?  So, either I hire a GC and add 50% to my cost (markup on all the other trades, plus wages, plus profit) or I take a chance and do it myself.  I'm lucky, because my dad is a better electrician than me, my buddy is a better finish carpenter, and I'm a better plumber, so we help each other out, and it doesn't look too bad.  and yes, I'm picky.  I don't begrudge anyone making a buck, and I do hire folks for some trades, but I still like getting my hands dirty and knowing that stuff was done right, and working on my own schedule. 

1. 
   e2canoe | Oct 12, 2004 03:13am | #34

   Hey.  Wanna good DIYer story.

   I'm a DIYer and gutted and a redid a 20's house a few years back.  Well, my wife went shopping one Saturday and I thought I'd get some more furring channels attached to some ceiling joists in the bedroom.  You know, the metal ones.

   Was standing on the top step of a step ladder, cordless in one hand and other hand holding the channel in position.  Drove the screw in and.... Ouch! When the channel got sucked up against the joist it pinched my other hand which was - you guessed it - exactly 24" away BETWEEN THE CHANNEL and the NEXT JOIST.  And, boy, was it ever wedged in there good!  That channel is pretty rigid.  It then occurred to me that if I dropped my screw gun I'd be left hanging (literally) until my wife came home!  I very, very carefully put the screw gun into reverse with my free hand and freed myself concentrating all the while "Don't drop the screwgun.  Don't drop the screwgun. Don't drop the screwgun".

   Told my wife when she got home and she laughed so hard she p!ssed her pants.

2. 
   junkhound | Oct 12, 2004 04:45am | #37

   I used to like to change the oil in my car.  Not because I loved changing oil, but because it made me feel more like the car was "mine". 

   Along that same line in redgards to "pro" car repair:  40 YO son came over the other day to have me check his differential lube.  He'd taken his '92 Toy' truck for a coupon free oil change (and free checkup of course!) as he makes his living as an artist and cut his hand once changing oil.  Bozo there told him he had water in his rear end and needed to change it.  Son wisely came over for a change (vs. $37) as I got a few 5 gal cans of 90WEP sitting around.  Anyway, rear end was fine.

   Asked son why he even used the 'free coupon' as the time spent taking it in and waiting was worth more more than the free oil vs DIY 10 minutes plus $3.20 worth of oil.  Risk to his RightHanded dependent business was his answer. 

   RE: Second post in this thread - Mom's pop died falling off a ladder painting houses professionally (that paid better than teaching in the mid 20's) and she was absoulutely against/horrified me coming back 2000 miles on FF miles/vacation to paint the house on Pop's old wood ext. ladders - BTW, brother picked the 'painter", a guy who owed him from a previous job??. 

   As an addendum as a DIY, there is no way I'd ever be able to acheive the exquisite perfection and elegance of Stan's stairs or of CH's plumbing artistry; but on an everyday basis, DIY suffices, and one can always aspire to come close to the TRUE professionals.

1. 
   wrudiger | Oct 12, 2004 07:28am | #38

   To me it's all about self-awareness.  Knowing your limits and sticking to them.  Many DYI'ers are seduced by the TV shows & HD How-To books and don't understand what it really takes.

   OK, I am kinda different in that I did new construction and remodel for about 6 years.  BUT, that was 20+ years ago, and some of the things I did 'cause I was young, ignorant and cocky make me shudder today!  On the remodel coming up I've decided to stick to what I can do well and leave the rest to the Pro's.

   I am considering doing some of the demo/prep work and laying the Ipe deck since that can be so labor-intensive, but only after getting very clear with the GC about boundries, expectations, liabilities etc.  Will also do the cabinet work and trim (gotta justify the shop!).  I think the key here is breaking out specific pieces of work vs. "helping". 

   I'll keep you posted as we get started - just in the initial design stage now.  I think I gotta get a digital camera before we start - I'm getting very tired of film!

   Wayne

8. 
   mikerooney | Oct 11, 2004 12:48pm | #23

   About 15 years ago, I agreed to sheetrock a basement with a HO. He was 10 years younger than me, and told me he had been 4 year scholarship fullback at Notre Dame. Also had framed houses a couple summers while in college.

   He had framed the basement himself, and done a decent job; so, I agreed. BTW, I am 5'6", 145lbs.

   After the first day, he says, "Boy, I don't know how you guys do this sh#t!"

   I said, "Beer is a big help."

    

9. 
   bruceb | Oct 12, 2004 04:00am | #36

   "I will be abel to give you a hand".

   Yup       $50 an hour for me

                $60 if you watch

                 $75 if you help

                                 Here's one I'll never let happen agaibn If I ever find myself back in the trades.

                  Once had a woman called me and ask for a price on a new stair rail to replace her iron one. We went through the catalog and she picked out the rail she wanted. She signed on the line and gave me a deposit. Since I had made the mistake of breaking it down into material and labor. On the day I show up to do the job, the husband opens the garage door and shows me a stack of stuff he bought from HD. He proceeds to explain that he wants to pay just labor since he bought the parts, at a considerable discount from my prices he went on to add.

            No problem, so long as you pay for any time lost because of the inferior parts you want to use, and for my trips to the supplier for stuff you didn't get.  A little experiment.

           Ended up getting all my material mark up back as well as about $150. And yes, I did share the little lesson with him.

10. 
    TommyC | Oct 12, 2004 01:47pm | #39

    Hey

    I always tell them.

    I charge $40/Hr.$50/Hr. if you watch and $60/Hr. if you help.

    That usually keeps them out of the way