I will try to explaing the reason for this thread as best I can. I am in the process of finishing my basement and have run into something that could be a problem for do it yourselfers specially the real novice. Anyway I have been building a wall 2×4 wall along the side wall of my basement block wall. I started at one end with an 1 1/2″ space between the block and stud wall and by the time I got to the other end (18′) I have a 3″ space. I have to believe that the stud walls are running square and the foundation wall is out. Simply because I have been real careful to check the diagonals and not just a 3-4-5 check but I check the over all legths. My point is I think a lot of these so call do it your self manuals dont take into account that the existing walls could be out of square (a little or alot) and this should be checked and verfied specially if you are using paf’s to hold the plates down …..cause these arent coming out. Any of you pros ever see an example of a screw up due to somebody just following the block walls like I almost did? By the way this is a spec house only 2 years old .
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Out 1½" over 18' ? That's not too bad.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Your'e kidding,right?
I kinda expected this kind of resposne I know thats not alot for a block wall but what if I was to build my walls to that, then tired to drywall? I am also pointing out that these do it your self mauals just tell you to measure a distance from the wall and basically do not tell the do it yourselfer to check the existing walls for square which could be out a lot more. I should also explain that if I just build one or two walls it still may not be that bad but I had to build 4 serarate walls to cover this 20 feet. Built the walls no longer that 8' due to access and had a radon vent pipe in the midde. Plus I am somewhat a perfectionist and do the best job I can when I do something
Thanks anyway for the response but I am not a professional and I am trying this at home and learning alot, sometimes the hard way
an unfortunate situation,but there you are!--suspended ceiling or tile floor would look bad but not a huge deal with carpet and drywall
".........I am trying this at home and learning alot, sometimes the hard way"
That's how many of the people here started out, I suspect. I know it's how I did.
Grammar has gots to be one of the most importantest things ever
I think the DIY community, and HD and Lowes in general are going to go down in history as being the first thing to ever cause a decline in property value. Then again, it seems that the real estate buyers are getting more blind to the details, and as long as it's big, it doesn't matter how hacked up it is.
Seeing as how I am not in the trades as a profession, and I don't consider myself the usual HD hack.....I am somewhere in between. Most DIY's don't think about what can and will go wrong on a project prior to starting it. Books and shows might be fine for showing you how it is "supposed" to go together or progress in utopia, but that agenda may not translate to the reality of your particular situation.
For instance, while I am residing my house I am replacing all the windows as well, while not inherently difficult there are a myriad of things that can change the scope of the project. Knowing the best way to handle those problems and not derail the project is what professional experience can bring to the table. Thank God I haven't had any problems, but if I were working on a 80year old house as opposed to 22 then perhaps there would be more issues to deal with and only a professional would be able to handle the situation in a timely and cost efficient manner.
There's nothing wrong with doing something DIY but people need to be honest with themselves and know their limitations. For instance, I won't do floors or major plumbing or electricity. If I screw up a trim job I can always do it over again. If I wire the house wrong someone may get hurt, if I "F-up" the plumbing I would have an expensive mess to clean up and other damage from the water. DIY's should do a risk reward analysis prior to tackling anything major.......what would happen if I screw this up....is it worth the risk?
SJKnow a little about alot and alot about little.
For instance, I won't do floors or major plumbing or electricity. If I screw up a trim job I can always do it over again. If I wire the house wrong someone may get hurt, if I "F-up" the plumbing I would have an expensive mess to clean up and other damage from the water.
It isn't only major wiring screwups that can kill people; at least in theory, a simple reversed polarity receptacle can do the same.
"Other damage from the water" can include hidden structural damage and mold and pathogens growing in some nasty places.
I'm not saying don't do the work; I am saying try to understand the consequences of getting it wrong and learn how to do it right.
As a home inspector, most of the amateurish work I see is merely "cosmetic," but some of what I see is dangerous; some so dangerous I wonder where they dragged the bodies off to!
And, rarely, some amateurish work has caused major, expensive problems.
Finally, I inform my clients that home inspectors can only see what is visible and much of a house's infrastructure can't be seen. If there is visible amateurish workmanship, I tell them there is increased risk of hidden dangers. I'm not alone in that view.
"I'm not saying don't do the work; I am saying try to understand the consequences of getting it wrong and learn how to do it right."
Isn't that pretty much what I said?
Actually from the inspections that I have had from the local building inspectors on my projects they say I do better work than some of the "professionals" in the area. I take my time and do it right. If it is worth doing it is worth doing right. It doesn't make sense for me to do something half-assed, I am the one that has to live with the results and everyone knows that I did it. If it reflects on me, it won't be a hack job.
I would also never put myself or family in danger from a half-assed job. Knowing your limitations is the only way to go.
Some of the houses we looked at when we bought this had some HD DIY nightmares in them. To the point where I knew as soon as we walked in and walked right back out a minute later. If some of these "projects" were in plain view I could only imagine what was hidden.
SJ
Know a little about alot and alot about little.
Steve, I wasn't trying to imply anything negative, I just wanted it to be clear that the size of a job (especially an electrical job) doesn't necessary corrospond toi the dangers involved.
As you very rightly point out, the trick is knowing your limitations.
And, as you pointed out, some amateur workmanship can be excellant. In some cases I believe can discern an gifted amateur's work by the degree of skill and detailing involved!
(Notice I used the word amateurish workmanship in my post - there is a difference bewtween amateur workmanship and amateurish work.
No problem Bob....just wanted to clarify that I wasn't nutts enough to put people in danger to save a buck.
The local people I see in Lowes and HD are frightening....... I heard some guy asking the "plumbing specialist"....."so when I take out the old electrical hot water heater, do I need to drain it and kill the electricity to it?".....the plumbing guy said "it might be a good idea"........MIGHT BE? Oh dear.
That type of stuff bothers me.
SJKnow a little about alot and alot about little.
It's gotta be hard to work with the public in a big box. The shoppers range from seasoned professionals to foolish DIY'ers, with most falling somewhere in between. I was in the tile aisle of HD a couple of months ago, and a shopper was trying to get the salesman to agree that greenboard around the shower surround would work just fine. The salesman said over and over that the guy needed to use tile board, but the customer just didn't want to hear it.
When the salesman left the aisle I went over and told the guy that the salesman was right. He got kind of mad and then said that he didn't know how handle the transition from the tile board to the drywall. He waived away my suggestion of trim pieces or bullnose. So just to prove his point, he bought enough Wonderboard to hang on all the walls and the ceiling of the entire bathroom, complaining about how much work it was going to be to tile everything instead of just the shower. It was hilarious, in a bizarre sort of way. I feel sorry for the contractor he must have had to call weeks later...
Some people need to stick to Do It Yourself check writing.
"A completed home is a listed home."
That guy should have known his limitations, which sounds like he should have stopped at the front door of HD where the business cards are.
I tiled a backsplash once.....once. It looks fine....but I didn't "enjoy" it like I have my other projects....like building the porch and siding the house etc. Therefore I think this guy is in for a world of frustration if he doesn't take people's advice.
I don't understand how some homeowners/homewreckers can be so closed minded to not take advice from people that know more on a given subject. I would be in big trouble without following the advice of people here etc. that knew more than me about the projects I was planning to tackle.
You're just going to waste your money if you think you already know everything.
SJ
Know a little about alot and alot about little.
True, after all, wasn't Noah's Ark built by amateurs while the Titanic was built by professionals ?.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
True, after all, wasn't Noah's Ark built by amateurs while the Titanic was built by professionals ?
Yeah, but look who Noah was apprenticed to!
I saw a funny bumper sticker the other day that said:
"My boss is a Jewish Carpenter"
The sad part is it took me a minute to get it.
SJ
Know a little about alot and alot about little.
Hey thats me..(Jew carpenter)...only thing is.....I heard Jesus wasnt a very good carpenter even with all his connections..go figure...Musta had too much on his mind and you go try working in sandels..lol...as for me I learned more from the Buddha....Patience......And the "two" most important words "NOT ALWAYS SO".
Be well
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
"I heard Jesus wasnt a very good carpenter even with all his connections..go figure...Musta had too much on his mind and you go try working in sandels"
You think we could get more unsubstantiated than this?Jon Blakemore
You think we could get more unsubstantiated than this?
Jon Blakemore
Jon
Unsubstantial? Your kidding, right? You actually believe all the stuff in the bible from thousands of years ago? Noah's Ark? C'mon dude. Whatcha think its written in stone? LOL
Be well
Namaste'
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
You still haven't proved to me that He was a bad carpenter...
I was merely suggesting that you speaking in total ignorance. That's all.Jon Blakemore
Just to jump in and change directions...no where I know of does it say Jesus was ever a carpenter. The old man, Joe, that's another story.......and certainly there's no mention of the "apprentice years" as a teen. We've covered this here many times in the past.
Can't say 100%......but I'm a betting man, and I'd take that bet......what ya got as proof he was a carp?
Just curious, as this in one of those little subjects I like to wrap the little brain around every now and then. Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
I wasn't in on the discussions in the past and certainly don't want to start an argument. In Mark 6:3 he is referred to as a carpenter. However, the footnote in my bible say the Greek word could refer to a carpenter or mason.
I really find it amusing how some of these thread evolve sometimes.Yes, I am serious. And don't call me Shirley.
that's a new one to me...I'll have to dig up the reference guide.....aka Bible...and read up. Thanks for the lead.
Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
As you probably see by now, Mark (the poster, not the writer of the book) has provided the answer that I was going to give. He is also correct that it's likely that he also did masonry work. I have been to Isreal and I can tell you there's not much work for a carpenter. Roofs and furniture, that's about all. I have heard of a tale that people tell in Israel. They say that God gave an angel a basket of rocks to be evenly distributed around the world. Angel got started, but tripped and spilled the whole box in Israel. Whether or not Jesus really did what we today would call a carpenter is not known. (Now I am speaking in the realm of the unsubstantiated) maybe the mason and carpenter were synonyomous in those days.Jon Blakemore
> He is also correct that it's likely that he also did masonry work. I have been to Isreal and I can tell you there's not much work for a carpenter.
Consider also that masonry, particularly the lower parts of it, is more likely to still be around after thousands of years than is wood. Even when earthquakes knock it down, the bottoms of the walls are usually identifiable. We have some wooden artifacts from Egyptian tombs, but only because they were very well protected. There are even some cedar beams inside the pyramids, IIRC.
-- J.S.
Jon,
Its still funny to me that you ask for proof that he wasnt a great carpenter.....you act like all the information in the bible are "facts".....Most are fairy tales IMHO that doesnt hold any water...specially walking on it so where do you want the facts to come from? From the same place you get your "proof" of whats acurate in the bible. So where do YOU get "your facts " from? This I really want to hear. Ignorance?????ROFLOOOO
BE well
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
I never asked for proof that He wasn't a great carpenter. Merely proof that He was bad. If I lived in your town and someone asked me about your work I could say either "I have never met the man and, to my knowledge, I have not seen any of his work" or "he's probably a hack." Which would you prefer. I just think that to state that someone is above or below par requires some information to back that up. Status quo is assumed, so we don't need to prove that.Jon Blakemore
First of all I never used the word BAD. I said I heard he wasnt a very good carpenter. And now I hear he may not have even been a carpenter but rather a mason,,,,,but I think its safe to say "without proof" that he wasnt a very good electrican or plumber". OK? Is that better? LOL
Be well
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Whatever makes you happy.Jon Blakemore
Okay, forget about the cup of Christ, I want to have the trowel of Christ, possible his masons line, old tool bag, brick hammer...line blocks........now that would be way cool. Holy Grail..poo poo...I want the tools.
I bet he stunk to. Probobly one of those guys that are always talking...blah, blah blah, I can walk on water, my dad is God...blah, blah blah.
saying you rock might encourge more duchey rehtoric.......Heyyyyyyyyyy how bout a weekend in NY....I'll host it....all families invited.....whatcya think bro......which holiday works best"
Be well
Namaste'
andyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
lets foo aroune with religon and theories,,,lets test the holy waters my brothers and sisters.......lets start a fest....should be a serious gas.......I'll host it if I get my new / old 322 year old crib.......it'll be such a blast like o other site ever had in mind..........give me one more wek to make it go down.....later ya all
BWAIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
"Actually from the inspections that I have had from the local building inspectors on my projects they say I do better work than some of the "professionals" in the area."
If I had a penny for every diy'er who used this statement I would be rich.
How about this one...
If your building inspectors are twice as good as my inspectors, there still only half as good as a half-assed wannabe hack. Same with home inspectors.
You have to consider why/how people get in these positions. If they were any good at building and/or the business, science and art of building, they would be building. Unless there is some hidden satisfaction in building/home inspections that eludes me. Maybe they go there for the money, not. Job satisfaction? Not. Easy work? Probably. Get to misuse authority? Probably. Weren't good at anything else? Likely.
I don't guess alot of building inspectors drive around with their friend and family pointing out houses they inspected.
Essentially, the first statement may make you feel good about your workmanship Steve, but it's pissing in a deaf girls ear to me.
Then again, I called for foundation inspection today and was told I had to dig out maybe two feet of dirt covering ten l.f. of footing. The inspector wanted to see my drains. I have a good working relationship with the guy, but seems like he was having a bad day. Thing is, he did the footing inspection and had full access to see the footing drains at that time (it was formadrain system) and could still se 95% of the drains, as well as all terminations. After a phone call, he remembered seeing it, but insisted I remove three shingles from the overdig just for good measure.
I hope he got a boner over this.
Anyhow, some inspectors might know good construction, but only from the few years they may have actually done the work, not from inspecting it.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't do or can't teach, teach inspectors. Those who can't do, can't teach, can't teach inspectors, inspect.Tom
You have to consider why/how people get in these positions. If they were any good at building and/or the business, science and art of building, they would be building. Unless there is some hidden satisfaction in building/home inspections that eludes me. Maybe they go there for the money, not. Job satisfaction? Not. Easy work? Probably. Get to misuse authority? Probably. Weren't good at anything else? Likely.
Actually, the real reason is that there are a lot of builders who don't know enough to know how badly they're screwing it up and that makes easy work for we inspectors.
If everyone had any sense they'd all do exactly what you do, right?
Here's a little tip for you from someone who is stupid enough to be a home inspector. Maybe if you didn't have quite so much attitude and show so quite so much bullsheet disrespect, you wouldn't have had to dig up those drains that he "forgot" he saw.
I have a good working relationship with the guy, but seems like he was having a bad day.
Bet that happens alot, right? Everyone's having a bad day except Tom!
Next time you're strutting your stuff at the lumber yard counter, talking aboput those azzhole inspectoirs who don't know squat and who made you do this that or the other thing, try looking at your audience, see if they're hiding some smirks.
You might want to consider the wisdom in the expression "The two people you don't want to piss off are your proctolgist and your inspector."
Bob,
Maybe it was you but, many moons ago on this board a similar discussion took place. And again I am overemphasizing, and generalizing. I must be the only one here who does this I guess.
Anyhow, the last building inspector who defended himself on this board proved my theory. Its infallible. I'm not the least bit cocky and really don't have much stuff to strut. And to answer your question about the partial backfill, maybe 50 shovelfulls were placed by an overzealous employee trying to keep busy. He really likes to shovel dirt, no kidding!
I have met one or two decent inspectors, and most are decent people.
You said your a building inspector, what's your story?Tom
I hate them too. I've only known one who was worth a sheet. The rest are underqualified for backfill. Fat lazy doughnut scarfing no talent worthless vile scumbag dirt. Them and lawyers.
Tom,
In my opinion, in writing you came across as a pretty big jerk, at least in that one message you posted. Maybe you're a great guy in person, but when you say the sorts of things you did in message 22482.29, it's pretty weird to see you decribe that as merely "overemphasizing, and generalizing."
I'd hate to see what you have to say and how you say it when you're trying to insult someone.
My story? Been around, done this, done that. Learned some stuff along the way
Edited 8/20/2002 6:36:53 AM ET by Bob Walker
Hey Bob, This line I posted at "scary construction" seems to be relavant for this disscusion also. All inspectors have their place in the system. Hopefully they catch it before it's 8 feet of soil that needs to be removed. Not saying that inspectors can't be a pain, but if listened to with respect and a few direct appropriate questions can actually save time in the end. After all we are human and we do make mistreaks.
In my real life trade that of an aircraft mechanic we rely on anybody walking by and telling us something is wrong. We accept and solicit opinions on our work. Before that aircraft gets anywhere near the door let alone in the sky it has been checked by at least two other people before it is signed off. Would YOU want it any other way?
This thread reminds me of this "handyman" who I had stop by to give me a bid on building a stucco wall for me. He wasted most of my time telling me about how good his work was and taking his time till its done right, what really got me was when he told me he was giving me a break by not charging me $20.00 to come over and give me an estimate...YA RIGHT
whatta bag of hot air!
"If I had a penny for every diy'er who used this statement I would be rich."
Well come on over I'll say it all day long and maybe by the end of the day you can buy a Coke.
"Essentially, the first statement may make you feel good about your workmanship Steve, but it's pissing in a deaf girls ear to me."
Because I was talking directly to your ears, right? While I appreciate your concern about my worksmanship and I can understand your reasoning behind your generalizations your attitude and cockiness are falling on laughing ears here.
Last time I checked this board wasn't about whose hammer is bigger, but perhaps I was wrong. Next time your in my neck of the woods come on over and check my work out and I'll pass you a beer, I'm sure you will find it up to snuff.
SJKnow a little about alot and alot about little.
I stand by my comments about building inspectors.
Maybe you could give me one good reason why a person who really knows good work, and is capable of doing good work, or for that matter why any person at all would want (emphasis) to be a building inspector(I know some possible reasons, none that are truthful and flattering). Part two, explain to me how he arrived at the conclusion that your work was really good, and his qualifications for knowing this.
After you mull that over, you will probably have a better understanding of what I said. I'm sure your tight with your buddy the building inspector and all, I hope your friends are impressed with how nice the building inspector thought your work was. I'm sure you've bored them with this useless piece of information too.
Honestly, I don't mean anyone on this board any disrespect, facts just come off that way in type.
Another thing for you to consider Steve. It is a thousand time easier to satisfy a customer when the customer is yourself.
Ps.
Don't worry if the beer's up to snuff or not, I won't be over. But that doesn't mean we can't still be friends.Tom
"After you mull that over, you will probably have a better understanding of what I said. I'm sure your tight with your buddy the building inspector and all, I hope your friends are impressed with how nice the building inspector thought your work was. I'm sure you've bored them with this useless piece of information too.
Honestly, I don't mean anyone on this board any disrespect, facts just come off that way in type."
Actually I can't see one fact in there and yes you did just disrespect me by crapping on work you never saw. I take your word that you do quality work, why you question my skill is your own issue. However publicly crapping on the job I've done sight unseen because you don't understand why someone would become a building inspector is beyond me. Sounds a little derivative to me.
As for his basis of comparison, since I am not him, I would guess the average work he sees by "professional" tradesmen in the area would be his standard. Now most work in my area is done by quality tradesmen that do very good work, I would take that as a compliment, and I did.
For the record I don't know the building inspector personally so I wouldn't call him my buddy. Also last time I checked MA had some of the hardest standards for building inspection in the nation, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, the trades that have been in my home to do jobs that I won't touch (because I know my limits and all) have concurred that I've done a fine job in the areas I have tackled. So go ahead and discredit your fellow tradesmen and moan about my work that you never saw.
Now Tommy, I assume you run your own business. When you price your projects etc. I assume you know what you're doing and I take your word for it. Just because I price deals each week involving $25 Million to $4 Billion for one of the nations largest corporations doesn't give me the right to assume that your prices and business model are crap, does it? No more so than you can judge my work from your arm chair.
Now don't get me wrong I do appreciate your concern over my work. I'm sure the MA Inspectors will go back to the drawing boards on their standards because you think there is no possible way my inspector could have known I did a good job relative to other jobs he's seen in his career.
SJ
Know a little about alot and alot about little.
Tommy, you wrote:
"Maybe you could give me one good reason why a person who really knows good work, and is capable of doing good work, or for that matter why any person at all would want (emphasis) to be a building
inspector(I know some possible reasons, none that are truthful and flattering). "
My husband is an inspector, although not a residential building inspector. He is capable of being in the trades and sometimes wonders if he missed his calling. However, being an inspector is a wonderful job. He works for a state agency, doesn't have to pay social security, puts 10% of his paycheck into retirement and they put in 12%, has excellent health care, paid holidays, vacation, and sick leave. There is a lot of stability there and job security. Also, it is the perfect combination of work for him. 75% of the time he is out in the field, which he loves, and then 25% at a desk. That combination is perfect. Less physical, but he still gets outside and is part of construction which he loves. Nights and weekends are spent remodeling (our old house) or building (our new house) since the schedule is predictable and there is no overtime. Frankly, its a great job.
He has excellent relationships with the contractors that do good work and we even hang out with these great folks socially. The hacks, well, they hate him. What can I say? That doesn't mean anyone here who hates their inspector is a hack. I have seen first hand some of the evil inspectors out there. He has worked for some incredibly psychotic people who were on a complete power trip and made contractor's lives hell. They are out there and its a shame.
Another thing you said was:
It is a thousand time easier to satisfy a customer when the customer is yourself.
I wish that were true. My DH is a complete perfectionist and I can't tell you the number of times things which seemed perfectly good to me but were ripped out because they weren't perfect.
Having said all that. Clearly all DIYs are not the same. I know that we have made mistakes, but we have done some really nice work. However, most of the stuff we've seen other people we know do is pretty pathetic. I can think of a drywall job we saw recently done by a homeowner. You almost had to avert your eyes....it hurt to look at it it was so bad! So I can appreciate where you all are coming from when you hear that someone Did it themselves.
Anyway, just thought I would chime in. Not all inspectors are losers, at least not to me! LOL!
Steve,
You apparently are oversensitive and have misread my posts. Nowhere did I say or even imply your work was crap, thats just not me. I merrily (spelling intentional) stated that the building inspector's assessment of it was and is (worthless) crap. You seem to be an intelligent guy who buy his own admission expertly manages millions of dollars of someone elses assets. We are all impressed by that.
I am a little to pompous and lacking in reading comprehension skills to go back and read my own posts so maybe you could help me out and show me where I made the comment about your work.
Have a great day!Tom
Honestly, I don't mean anyone on this board any disrespect, facts just come off that way in type.
Facts? What have your opinions and ejaculations of disrespect have to do with facts? Simply amazing, that you'd consider those posturing as facts.
Another thing for you to consider Steve. It is a thousand time easier to satisfy a customer when the customer is yourself.
I'll bet you think that's another "fact." My experience is that the most meticuylously detailed homes are the result of "amateur" homeowner workmanship performed to a level that the vast majority of tradespeople can't do because they've never had the opportunity too. Let's face it, there is a lot of competition out there and almost all tradesmen have to compromise that last, surpassing bit of craftsmanship to land the bid.
Again, in my experience, the majority of truly shlock work is done by homeowner DIYs who don;t have a clue, but a fair bit of that cruddy work is done by so-called "professionals."
Later:
It just occured to me: you're putting us on, right? Yanking our chains! You really got me good. I was actually believing someone could hold and express the opinions you've let loose with. Looking back, I've realized you really got me good! Amazing I could be so gullible!
Edited 8/20/2002 8:26:47 PM ET by Bob Walker
I've never had more appreciative clients than do-it youselfers who have screwed up and are willing to pay to have it done right.Some folks just have to learn the hard way and thats why I will never use my good tin snips to do electrical work again.
Rik carpenter guy
So I got to tell ya...That old rusted crescent wrench that doesn't work that you still keep in that old metal toolbox that you keep next to the the old wooden one that has the spider webs on it really does work as a hammer.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Again Bob,
Tell me about yourself.
I can give you plenty of observations regarding building inspectors and home inspectors. So can every contractor here. Your comment:
My experience is that the most meticuylously detailed homes are the result of "amateur" homeowner workmanship performed to a level that the vast majority of tradespeople can't do because they've never had the opportunity too. Let's face it, there is a lot of competition out there and almost all tradesmen have to compromise that last, surpassing bit of craftsmanship to land the bid.
Is about the most rediculous one I have read.
Perhaps you have the ability to "do" rather than only to inspect.
I would submit that if one can do the work it would be many times more satisfying, monetarily and otherwise than "inspecting". Why would a man choose to "inspect" the work of others, rather than "do" the work if he was capable? Why? Because someone has to do it? Does it make you feel better to inspect work? Are you saving the world? Is it like being a policeman, or a fireman?
You said something earlier about not pissing off your inspector or your proctologist. Do you consider those professions on the same professional level? See the proctologist "does". But I'll take my chances and call either one out.
I can drive you all over any town in this great country of ours and point out code violations that inspectors missed on every job under construction. That's because they are either incompetent in their duties and/or they were subjective in their conclusions. The last thing I aim for in being a builder is being the inspectors friend. I just want them to do their job.
A building inspector who enforces every letter of the code all the time wouldn't last in any locality because it wouldn't serve the community. There is always some give and take between the inspectors and the builders because the builders are more powerful in the community. And I'm not talking about me. How else do you explain all the shoddy construction that is talked about in society in general and on this board. The building code is subject to interpretation much like texts of law. But inspectors have very limited education on interpreting it. And by that I mean you could pass a course on what the code says in a few months, but it takes experience to interpret it. Kind of like you can't pass the bar or the cpa exam without some practical experience. Not so with building inspectors. I believe the majority have no practical background in construction. I know none. That doesn't mean they don't exist, maybe you can provide me with statistics. My guess would be there are none. Same could be said of contractors and builders, but hey, they aren't the inspectors.
How are building inspectors reviewed for performance? Are they liable for any errors or ommissions in their inspections? Are builders? Hell yes.
An inspector who is unnaccountable is nothing but a critic.
And yes it is a fact that it is easier to satisfy yourself when you are the customer. Because you know what you want and are willing to accept. Because you don't accept this as fact tells me that you don't have much experience dealing with customers. As an inspector you have no customer. Just like any government employee. That is another component to this problem.
Please tell me who it is that the inspector serves. I'll really blow you out of the water.Tom
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos004.htm
http://www.ashi.org/inspectors/join/
"when the pendant moon in the leafless treeclings and sways like a golden bati sing its light and my love for theeours is the zest of the alley cat"-"The Song of Mehitabel," Don Marquis, 1927
Thank you.
But I am already a building inspector.
What I do is inspect the work that I, my men and my subs do. I use a criteria that not only includes exceeding, Boca, Cabo and the like, but it must also be asthetically pleasing in execution and design, be on time, on budget, and be warranted for as long as I am alive.
I don't like to do anything half-assed, plus I make more.Tom
Hello gang, I didnt meant to start wwiii with my original post, all I wanted to point out that most of the do it yourself manuals dont really reflect the real world of remodeling and that could lead to a lot of trouble for the novice do-it-yourselfer. And would like to point to the do it yourselfer that even using the 3-4-5 method doesnt gurantee a square wall if you are building a long wall. I have been checking the diagonals for suare on both ends of my walls as i go along usually from a couple different points. I did but a new toy....I mean tool.....kinda sorta its a construction master iv calculater so no more converting to decimals and squaring number and and taking the square roots to come up with the diag.....best 40 bucks i ever spend.....
I would submit that if one can do the work it would be many times more satisfying, monetarily and otherwise than "inspecting". Why would a man choose to "inspect" the work of others, rather than "do" the work if he was capable? Why? Because someone has to do it? Does it make you feel better to inspect work? Are you saving the world? Is it like being a policeman, or a fireman?
Well, as a self-employed home inspector, among other services which I offer is carbon monoxide analysis. I do it in homes and participate in a number of CO related forums. I have saved lives doing that.
A couple of years ago I changed docs and gave her my standard CO awareness talk. A couple of weeks later she called me to tell me that I had probably saved her parents' lives because, based on my information, she hadn't blown off their CO poisoning symptoms as flu. I have received letters and emails from people around the world who feel that I either saved their lives or significantly helped their situations. I assist my local fire department by providing voluntary emergency CO response.
So, in fact, yes, it makes me feel better to be a home inspector, and, to some small degree it is like being a fireman.
I am not trying to compare myself in any significant way to the everyday heroism of firefighters. I don't significantly risk my life on a routine basis and I stand in awe of what they routinely do.
But I do make a significant contribution to people's lives and I deeply resent your cavalear and ignorant dismissal of what I do for a living.
I often am the only person giving objective advice on the condition of a home to young, inexperienced buyers. I have saved many of them from money pits. I have helped even more understand that the problems they have seen in the homes they are looking at are no big deal and I have given them a realistic expectation of the huge investment they are making and job they are undertaking.
Yes, I feel good about and am proud to be a home inspector.
I believe your failure to understand other peoples lives and motivations and values says a great deal about you and next to nothing about the group of people you have denigrated. You are obviously unaware that you are metaphorically standing naked before the world.
You said something earlier about not pissing off your inspector or your proctologist. Do you consider those professions on the same professional level? See the proctologist "does". But I'll take my chances and call either one out.
Of course they aren't the same professional level. You miss the point entirely. This is a family site, so I can't be more explicit (although I just deleted an attempt to do so.)
Kind of like you can't pass the bar or the cpa exam without some practical experience.
Well, I don't know about the cpa exam, but I passsed the NY bar exam in 1981 so I suspect I know a tad more about it than you do. Didn't take any practical experience at all. Purely book learning.
How are building inspectors reviewed for performance? Are they liable for any errors or ommissions in their inspections? Are builders? Hell yes.
You've apparently missed the fact that I am a self-employed home inspector. I am liable for errors and ommissions and carry insurnace for that.
And yes it is a fact that it is easier to satisfy yourself when you are the customer. Because you know what you want and are willing to accept. Because you don't accept this as fact tells me that you don't have much experience dealing with customers. As an inspector you have no customer. Just like any government employee. That is another component to this problem.
I deal with 10 -12 different customers a week.
Please tell me who it is that the inspector serves. I'll really blow you out of the water.
Is that before or after Sheriff Andy lets you take the bullet out of your shirt pocket?
> Why would a man choose to "inspect" the work of others, rather than "do" the work if he was capable?
Here a lot of the inspectors are older guys who have done the work in the past. But now they prefer the steady income, great fringes, regular (and shorter) hours, and a less physically demanding job. These are the good ones.
-- J.S.
"I'm sure your tight with your buddy the building inspector and all, I hope your friends are impressed with how nice the building inspector thought your work was. I'm sure you've bored them with this useless piece of information too."
"Another thing for you to consider Steve. It is a thousand time easier to satisfy a customer when the customer is yourself."
There you go Tommy. By suggesting that the inspector has no idea what good work is and then calling his compliments of my work "useless information" you have therefore suggested that there's a good chance my work is crap because the B.I. couldn't tell the difference.
By suggesting that it is easier to please a customer when the customer is yourself suggests that I "settled" for the work I did as opposed to doing really quality work.
If I am misinterpreting your statements please clarify for me.
Tommy, I don't say things to impress people like you suggested. I say things to make a point. I, unlike you don't stand on a soapbox and discredit other professions and the individuals that perform them.
I am an intelligent, humble man that enjoys the interation here with people that share the same interests, Fine Homebuilding. I expect some level of respect from strangers and I didn't appreciate being personally referenced in your mini-tirades based on your pre-conceived notions of B.I.'s and DIY's.
Have you ever done something you were really proud of and gotten a decent amount of compliments for, then had one loser just go "That don't mean squat!" as he stands on his soapbox? If that wouldn't bother you in the least then, yeah maybe I am a little over sensitive when it comes my pride and worksmanship. Perhaps if everyone took as much pride in the work they do there wouldn't be as many stereotypes in this industry.
SJ
Know a little about alot and alot about little.
Edited 8/21/2002 8:20:49 AM ET by Steve Joyce
Steve,
Silence is golden, eh?
Evidently.
I usually don't get fired up about things like that....but for some reason this one got me.
Blanket generalizations and stereotyping in my opinion show closed mindedness and perhaps a little ignorance. I would never go out on a limb and say there aren't awful home inspectors out there just like I wouldn't say all contractors are thieves based on a couple news articles.
The handful of home inspectors I met included some older and out of the trades due to injury (back and knee if I remember correctly), so that whole "those who can, do..." crap is just closed minded BS as far as I'm concerned.
Whatever.
Now don't get me wrong, I would also never say that the majority of DIY projects are done to the same quality as someone who works in the trades full time. However, it is possible to do quality work and have a nice career outside the trades.
SJKnow a little about alot and alot about little.
Steve, lets see, bob made two such generalizations in consecutive paragraphs:
My experience is that the most meticuylously detailed homes are the result of "amateur" homeowner workmanship performed to a level that the vast majority of tradespeople can't do because they've never had the opportunity too. Let's face it, there is a lot of competition out there and almost all tradesmen have to compromise that last, surpassing bit of craftsmanship to land the bid.
Again, in my experience, the majority of truly shlock work is done by homeowner DIYs who don;t have a clue, but a fair bit of that cruddy work is done by so-called "professionals."
Or does prefacing a generalization with "my experience" blah, blah, not make it a generalization?
With all the reposting you have done you still haven't shown me where I said your work was crap. But I can see where someone who appears to be oversensitive and defensive in nature could construe a couple of my comments that way. I don't generally apologize for the insecurities of others.
For the record, the majority of my comments are directed at building inspectors not home inspectors.
Did you practice law Bob? What else have you done on the path to becoming a building inspector?Tom
Yup Tommy being insecure and oversensitive got me to where I am today, hardly. If that is what you want to believe fine. You have made some solid contributions to other threads with your knowledge of the trades. Originally I would have said your opinion mattered. However, the closed mindedness you have displayed by insulting professions and people you don't seem to fully understand along with your condescending attitude caused me to realize your opinon doesn't matter to me afterall. Say what you want about building/home inspectors and their opinons you have proven your opinon may not mean squat either.
"With all the reposting you have done you still haven't shown me where I said your work was crap. But I can see where someone who appears to be oversensitive and defensive in nature could construe a couple of my comments that way. I don't generally apologize for the insecurities of others."
I've already addressed your other concerns previously. But I can see where someone who appears to be boorish and perfect could construe a couple of my comments as non-answers. I generally don't apologize for the ignorance of others.
Whatever.
I just agree to disagree I guess.
SJKnow a little about alot and alot about little.
Tom,
I have great distain for the opinions you have expressed and the way you have expressed them.
I have no interest in continuing this discussion with you.
my question is, why you didn't just fir off the block wall? You just created a void space for a fire to smolder and travel the length of the whole basement for a miniscule asthetic problem that others wouldn't notice.
Let's just say I was gently easing into the question to draw out further conversation..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
I've got a similar problem. I'm enclosing my covered Porch and the concrete slab floor bellies out an inch and half from one end to the other. I decided to split the difference with the bottom plate back to a straight line then fit the bottom trim of the patio doors to the slab.
Danz, you've just run into what I think is the biggest part of the DIY headache out there. To me, it borders on fraud. Most of the books and shows I've seen......simply gloss over what are really typical problems the Pro's face day in and day out in the wonderful world of remodeling.
The TV shows...and more so the books......almost never seem to run into unforseen conditions that have to remedied before work can continue. I'm pretty sure one of the reasons is each problem can have a different fix. Some simple, some difficult. More than once, the entire budget on a small remodel has been spent just getting the existing structure workable. If additional money isn't there.....the smart thing to do is fix the substructure..and get around to the planned for work the next year or so.
Then again......many projects have this jump up where the way to go is just work around the defect. Sounds like what you're gonna do in the basement. But not many books out there, not many TV shows..and not many "DIY Experts" are gonna make mention of anything that might scare ya off. The industry is focused around the concept the "anyone can do it, and it's all right here in this book". Pointing out all the possible hazzards would probably cut down on sales. Jeff
.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
>anyone can do it
You mean they can't?
Didya see the HD commercial where the guy has never used a saw before and buys these power tools to build a treehouse for his kids? They used the "you can do it" line. Scary.
At least the DIY's now have respect for the real problems that we face, as Jeff said, "day in and day out". Remodeling would be cake if not for the existing conditions. The DIY will now realize how difficult it really is. Just like the crown job I did a few weeks ago, where they had tried to do it themselves (even bought a Delta miter box for the job) but then realized it's not just cut and bang up.
Jon Blakemore
Jim
If you look at the last seconds of that commercial the kid is thanking his dad as they sleep in it.
The dads eye's roll away as if he is thinking "God, I hope that this thing will last the night without falling down".
It was clearing in the long version of it, but now they are mostly running a shorten version.
Bill, as the HD salesman was loading tools in the guy's arms and reassuring him that he could do it, did it look to you like he had never seen a circular saw before? Didn't he say something like, "I've never built anything before..."?
Your absolutely correct
The manuals show a nice, flat wall, a square room and flush cabinets.
However, what converts a DIY project into a thing of beauty is time, patience, good mechanical skills, problem solving curiosity and desire. I wonder how many of the HD shoppers have these?
BruceM
Hi Danz.
Perhaps I'm missing something here, but the way I interpreted your initial posting is that you have built one wall (composed of 8ft long sections all tied together to give you that one wall) that is approx. 18 feet long. This one wall ran parallel to your existing block foundation wall, right so far? You held your wood wall away from the block 1-1/2 inches at the starting point, but by the time you got the entire wall up in place, you measured 3 inches out from the block wall at the other end, right?
If this is so....how did you measure the diagonals?...you only installed one side. (Did you measure this wood wall against the other block wall to come up with a diagonal?....if so, are you certain that your wood constructed wall is running straight?...You used 3-4-5 method? BTW...on an 18 ft run, using a 6-8-10 would be more appropiate.)
Unless i'm missing something, you could have simply measured 1-1/2 inches out from the block wall for your starting point, measured another 1-1/2 inches out from the wall at the other end (18 ft) and simply put a chalk line between these 2 marks. Set your bottom plate on this chalk line and build from there. Of course, if your block walls are badly out -of-square as you say, the error would still appear when building the other wood framed walls .
Anyway, you touched upon a very good subject...hardly anything is ever square, plumb or level. Remodelers are then faced with the dilemma of making things that way, or instead conforming so as not to cause too much attention to the item in question. It's ALWAYS best to make things square plumb and level whenever possible, but sometimes running trim and things parallel is better than square or level. If everything was always to be square, then the sliding "T" bevel guage would never had been invented.
Two examples where parallel is better than square, straight or level...(ex.1....when trimming the bottom off a sticking door, cut the door bottom so it is parallel with the floor....even though this cut is out of square, the eyes will perceive the new cut as "level." If indeed the door bottom was cut square and the floor was sloped....the new sqaure cut would cause the eyes to notice the sloping floor, and the eyes would perceive that the door, not the floor, was out of square. Woe to the carpenter!)
(ex 2...same thing when nailing up door or window head casings. The casings need to appear level, and with small ceilings (7ft or 8ft tall), the casings need to run parallel with the ceiling; otherwise everything will look askew. Its better to fudge the head casing a little and then correct this by mitering a slightly different angle rather than a "45" with the side casings so that in the end, both the head casings and side casings look square to one another ( though in reality they may be somewhat off)
Good luck with your project.
Davo
The problem is that there are a whole lot of hacks in all trades and as a pro my first consideration ALWAYS is to check the work around me for plumb, square, and all the little / big indifferences that may occur. As a pro knows all too well...PREPERATION" is more then half the work. The actuall work is the gravey. I've heard far too many subs say "Can't see it from my house" and other such lines. Burns me up! You learn from it though...to be weary of other trades work. If you keep in mind that most construction isnt done by computerized robots but rather by people in all kinds of moods and attitudes then you can proceed with more caution and consideration. I've spent far too much time on far too many jobs straightening out other trades work just to get started.
Be well
Namaste'
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Thats only about 3/32 per foot. Keep it square if your putting down wood or tile flooring, or a drop ceiling.
"I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
There was a house built recently around here that was 9" out of square in 40' The trusses hung 9" out over the short end. The building inspector PASSED this.
This was the worst F-up Ive ever seen in construction, the widest miss--anybody top this?