Replies

1. 
   Matt_Powell | Mar 02, 2000 01:14am | #2

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   It is true that a tiled shower does not need to have the grout sealed. Water will penetrate the grout joints. Of the correct cement backer board was used, ther will be no adverse effects on the tile installation. However, the grout will still stain if there is no sealer applied. My opinion, "seal it".

2. 
   Guest_ | Mar 02, 2000 03:46am | #3

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   Tina,

   How have you been doing? Been able to catch a breath yet? Hope all's well and the plan is starting to come to its rewarding end.

   How big a grout joint? And what kind of tile?

   Later.

3. 
   Darrell_Hay | Mar 02, 2000 04:49pm | #4

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   As a home inspector this is my bread and butter. I take a pinless moisture meter to each and every tile shower I run across (we're talking like 2000 per year). Backer board or not, EVERY grout joint should be sealed. If not sealed the water gets trapped behind the lowest row of tile. In a mudset pan it theoretically drains out the bottom. It doesnt. In a fiberglass pan it gets trapped by the flange and travels laterally to the exterior and causes damage there. In a fiberglass pan with weepholes it theoretically comes back into the shower, but not always. In all cases having thirty percent moisture behind the material is just plain crazy and leads to increased mildew. Backer board is water resistant, not waterproof. The only time you should not seal tile shower is when it is already wet behind and you dont want to seal in the water.

4. 
   Guest_ | Mar 02, 2000 05:15pm | #5

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   Darrell -- wow and thanks. Will print our your reply and give to tile contractor.

   Calvin....it's a fiberglass pan, glazed tile above on 9 foot walls, also a tile bench built into one side of shower wall. Minimal grout joint. I think Darrell has right approach, though....

   As for house...we're almost in, thanks to wonderful carpenters who have been working around walls that are either convex or concave, corners that aren't nearly square, basement floors that don't drain (that's another post), etc. We're probably going to have to build an entire new set of basement stairs OVER the existing ones (won't the archaeologists love that one when they dig us up in a thousand years....) Hope to drag in a bed in a week or so. But we're having fun, actually, helping to make it all right...Thanks for asking....Tina

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 02, 2000 05:59pm | #6

   *Tina,Darrell is right on. On a fiberglass pan, water will get trapped behind the lowest row of tile and move laterally, causing damage. I caused myself great pain by not sealing under the tiles at the edge of the shower and not providing weep holes for the trapped water to get out. Luckily it was my own home. jim

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 02, 2000 11:38pm | #7

   *Tina,Also; sealing grout is a quick and simple task. Many tile contractors advise sealing grout at least twice per year. A good grout job will keep mosture from penetrating behind the wall(s), however, sealing makes sense to prolong the life of the grout, same idea as waxing a car, preventitive maintenance.

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 03, 2000 01:29am | #8

   *No need to seal one piece acrylic units...and tile the rest of the bath where there is dampness not a deluge of water....very practical.near the stream,aj

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 05, 2000 05:27am | #9

   *I'm reading these posts with great interest! Our situation possibly could have been avoided if we had sealed the grout of our shower floors. We have 1" porcelain hex tiles in mud over a chlorali (sp?) membrane. The grout around the edges where the floor meets the walls failed almost immediately. We were advised by our GC that it's ok to continue to use the shower until a second one in our ongoing renovation is completed and useable. His plan is to then allow the shower with the missing grout to dry completely before restoring the grout around the edges. We wonder if continued use of this shower will cause any additional problems with moisture in the substrate. The ceiling is still open in the room below, and so far there is no water seepage. We plan to use a "Miracle" sealant on the newest shower before using it in hopes of preventing a rerun of this same problem, but it is also possible that the shrinkage we are experiencing in new wood used in the construction of the bathrooms may be contributing to the situation. I guess though, if the wood continues to shrink and expand, no amount of grout sealer will help. Please, any suggestions on how to proceed?

2. 
   Guest_ | Mar 05, 2000 07:27am | #10

   *His plan is to then allow the shower with the missing grout to dry completely before restoring the grout around the edges. C&D, Have him restore it alright...with a backer rod and caulk. It would have been preferable for the wall tile to have stopped short 1/8th to 3/16th inch or so above the floor tile, and instead of grout, which has so ably demonstrated to you its lack of flexibility in a corner joint, a quality sealant should have been installed. Manufacturers make colored caulk to match most every grout color available.When repair time rolls around, have it properly repaired. Have all the grout in the floor/wall intersection removed, clean the joint, install a backer rod, then caulk. Careful that the mambrane isn't damaged during grout removal. How long until your second shower is available? It wouldn't hurt to get a tube of caulk and at least smear it over the failed grout to minimize possible water damage. Your pan should be catching the leak, but still...It doesn't have to be pretty as it will be a temporary fix.As to sealing grout in showers? You betcha. It's a pain, but if you want to do the job right...You two have been busy...good luck!"Chloroloy"?...it's a CPE membrane.

3. 
   Guest_ | Mar 05, 2000 07:56am | #11

   *Excellent advice from Mongo re: caulking the wall/floor interface. I would also recommend caulking the vertical corner joints too from the floor to the top of the tile. Adjoining walls have a tendency to move too and will eventually (and sometimes sooner) cause grout failure. This did not happen all that often with a full mud layup that was at a minimum about two inches thick (read OLDER construction practices) but with the advent of cement backerboard or just the use of greenboard there is no longer that immovable mass of hard mud that ignores the feeble attempt of twisting or shrinking wood to disrupt that perfect tile job.

4. 
   Guest_ | Mar 05, 2000 12:14pm | #12

   *Darrel:Do you REALLY average over 38home inspections per week? If you in fact do 2000 per 52 week year that is the number. How in the world do you do a quality job for your customers?The tile folks here tell me that they no longer seal tile because the grout is mixed with a synthetic rather than water. The synthetic eliminates sealing.

5. 
   Guest_ | Mar 05, 2000 04:28pm | #13

   *Mixing grout with a latex additive increases flexibility and helps with color retention, but Ive never heard of it taking the place of sealer. Tina...seal the grout. Yes its a pain in the butt, but well worth the effort. Buy a high quality sealer like Sealers Choice and you will only have to apply it about every ten years(according to the manufacturer).As for the failed grout folks...Mongo is right on with his repair advice. Check the corners of the shower walls, you many find hairline cracks there as well. Dave

6. 
   Guest_ | Mar 05, 2000 05:16pm | #14

   *This is the best advice of all....

7. 
   Guest_ | Mar 06, 2000 02:46am | #16

   *Carole & Doug: I'd take Mongo's advice to caulk those cracked joints. That is the very least you should do for damage control. I think your GC is out of his mind to say to keep the shower in service without addressing the problem of failed grout joints. If that is the case, just how does he plan on correcting any further damage??? Water damage does not know when to stop. You'd be surprised to know just how little water it takes to cause structure damage, especially in those dark and warm locations between floors or behind walls.Ralph: I set tile only over a wire reinforced mud mortar setting bed. For walls, the thickness is 1/2-1 3/4", depending on the job specifications. In 18 years of doing this I have rarely NOT seen the grout cracks as presented here. (An aside: have you ever seen grass or small plant that has pushed it's way through a concrete sidewalk? Of course you have. My point is that it doesn't take much beyond persistence to fatigue any material.) Why I mention that is because we--you, me, the entire world--know of the stress potential in green wood used as building members. So, if a dandelion, over a short amount of time can push it's way through a 6" concrete slab, what do you think a wood stud, joist, et al, can do as it wracks out of shape as it dries? Green wood is under stress. It is hydrostatic stress. This is defined as a state in which all principal stresses are equal. This relates to the wood at the time of installation during construction. The moisture meter can help you calculate the internal stresses of the wood. Back to the point; what do you think will happen when that wood begins to dry out? The stresses, formerly in equilibrium, will be released as strain. Because of the rays in the wood, among other things, there will be rotational strain exhibited against the neighboring building member. Multiply this by all the pieces of wood building componets used to construct most structures...I think you will agree there exists a tremendous potential for, say, a SFR to twist, wrack, creep, and shift. Basically, the potential to deform--which resides in the wood members--is of some magnitude above that of the resistence to such deformation presented by a rigid--when cured--mud mortar setting bed. This would be true for all practicle purposes. I imagine there would be a point where the mortar bed is thick enough to subdue such deformation, but I surmise the bed thickness would be measured in feet. Besides, a mortarbed is not noted for it's tensional strength, therefore, it is fairly weak in counteracting shearing or tangential stress such as found at the joints presented in this topic. So far, I have spoken only about potential. Let me address this merely with a single sentence: It has been my field experience that it is more common than not to see cracked joints at the wall/floor, wall/wall, and wall/ceiling intersection in not just tiled showerstalls, but in most rooms of a structure built with wet wood.BTW: I used to perform house inspections. I choose not to any longer because I was tired of being named in a suit. Not E&O, mind you, but with so many litigious buyers out there the odds were not in my favor. It was a factor of that business I was uncomfortable with.

5. 
   Guest_ | Mar 06, 2000 02:46am | #15

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   We've been given opposite opinions on this, and we just tiled our shower. Tile installer says grout doesn't need to be sealed. But others tell us that the grout can take in moisture, which can go through to the wallboard/hardiboard and create problems. What's the opinion out there? Thanks!

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 01, 2000 10:29pm | #1

   *The grout may absorb moisture and eventually soften, but it will also discolor. If it's currently white, and you wish it to stay so, you should seal it. Your local wholesale or professional tile supplier should have an appropriate product.