Hi, ya’ll.
I’m new to this forum, but I’ve been remodeling for nearly 3 decades. I’ve never charged for an estimate or had “trip charges” but many business acquaintances, though not in construction, highly recommend I start doing just that. I seek your experiences and advice. Thanks in advance.
-Randy
Replies
Now ya done it.
Might as well fill out your profile. ( click on your own name )
I'm bettin' you wont have time to after everyone sees this.
At least it aint poli.
Answer is, yes you should charge for your efforts, or figure it in if your location won't support it. If your location will support it and you are just to afraid to do it - then you are srcewing yourself.
Bumpin' for Rez.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
been charging for Proposals for about 10 years
we don't do estimates
Hey Grandpa ( I know...I should talk)
I have a set of plans coming at me in a week or less from some people I've been working with that came to my house when we had an open house here. Fell in love with me and my house. This was monthsssssssss ago. They did buy a house not far from me and I charged them a few hundred bucks to come and give them ideas to turn it more country, sort of like mine...sorta. I got MY archy involved with them. He drew up the plans and they're about ready. I've been involved with them every step of the way. Thing is....I know how long this jobs gonna take to figure out for me...especially with no software...I know I know. I'd love to charge them for my time but at this point I don't want to start in with that. I should have said something from day one but I didn't. Hindsight on how to work that is 20/20 but now I have the order of explanations figured out. If I do get this job which will be around $500,000-ish I'm sure more jobs will come b/c of it. The entire neighborhood has the EXACT same dated house. Most all the houses like this one are in the $800,000 and up league. They paid about 9 for this one. Only a few have been transformed but nothing like this one will be!!! The design is OUTSTANDING imo!!!
In your opinion do you think at this stage of the game I should just do the proposal for free? I could add in several days to the proposal for my time but that's not really the way it should be done...I know. What if I don't get the job?
anyway...whatcha think?
Attaching a cpl of pic of the house as it is now. The look will TOTALLY change!!!!
Garage gets ripped down and built back up two stories w/ a master bedroom suite..gambrel roofs on the additions as well as bumping out the front (kitchen) and going up 2 stories there as well as in the rear..yada yada yada
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http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.org
"I am Andybuildz and I approve this post"
too late...you backed ninto this one
now you have to do the Proposal without a separately stated fee... you have to bury it in your Proposal
what would it have cost you to ask for a Proposal fee 6 months ago... if you got it , you knew you had the inside trackMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm having a hard time figuring out where you will be able to dump 500k into that unless you plan on tearing everything down and starting with a new basement. I like the locust tree out front.
A two story bumpout where I am, with kitchen and bath work inside, can readily run $300K. For a total house makeover, that includes a bump like that, prices can begin at the five Andy is talking about.
I think he is selling himself short.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Gene that was my thought also. Of course we don't live in the land where the labor is as cheap as Jim.
A two story bumpout where I am, with kitchen and bath work inside, can readily run $300K. For a total house makeover, that includes a bump like that, prices can begin at the five Andy is talking about.
I think he is selling himself short.
Gene...I have no idea. That's the number the archy told them and told me. It'll be what it'll be.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.org
"I am Andybuildz and I approve this post"
Andy, I have learned that architects often design something for a client based on a stated budget, telling them all the way through that what they have hallucinated together can be built for the number.
Then when builders quote it, the builders become the bad guys.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Certainly there is a mixed bag of ideas on this issue.Ever see the state pay every bidder for their time in preparing a bid?
I can see both points of view. The difference is in the approach right from the beginning.
Then when builders quote it, the builders become the bad guys.
EXACTLY what I thought!!
Also...they never gave the archy a budget as weird as that sound.
What really kinda sucks is the archy told ME he thought it'd cost about $500,000
My customer told ME the archy told her $400,000....grrrrrr. When I heard that I put 2and 2 together and that's when I figured what you too thought.
I look at it this way...in this perspective...I'm doing a small master bathroom and it's gonna cost my customers about $25000 WITHOUT the tub faucets sink bowl and tile so do the math on an entire house reno with additions and high end stuff. To me $500,000 is real basic.
I'll know more about this by the weekend...did I say GULP?
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.org
"I am Andybuildz and I approve this post"
I don't agree....but I'm in Texas. We are doing a master bath R&R right now and it will hit 50k. But....if we kept moving through the house, the bedrooms would be significantly cheaper....maybe 5k. The Kitchen might be 50k or maybe 75 if they load it up. I just can't see 500k even with the additional framing and new skin. I'll be interested to see how elaborate that renovation is. I agree that the basic house as is looks like a very basic Pulte (boxy) 2 story. It's a 250 hour frame (windows, siding and cornice) even if you started from the basement foundation.
I'm having a hard time figuring out where you will be able to dump 500k into that unless you plan on tearing everything down and starting with a new basement.
Close to everything is being taken down. Half the front...almost all of the rear. The garage ...which will go back two stories up..The inside is almost all being gutted. Extentions up the wazoo two story. Gambrel roofs. The entire house will have eastern white pine wide plank floors. Custom kitchen and bathrooms (high end).....the list goes on. Don't forget I'm on Long Island in NY.
Who'd imagine that house was almost a mil the way it is now? Dated and a half.
HAve to go meet with them Thursday or Friday night. One worry I have is they're afraid to start it now being where will they live through out the winter. I don't want them to wait till spring b/c I'm nervous they'll start handing the plans out for bid all winter. Gonna have to tell them that I can't (no one can) price it now if its not being done for 8 months. Prices will change too much...gulp.
Gonna suggest they get a trailer on the property or something??? It's always something.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.org
"I am Andybuildz and I approve this post"
Andy,
You'll have to have help to bring that in in a timely fashion -- will you not ??
Walter
Andy,
You'll have to have help to bring that in in a timely fashion -- will you not ??
Walter
Walter...Yep! I have plenty of room here..wanna rock n roll : )
I have subs I've worked well with before to do the framing electric and plumbing rock roofing and insul. All the intricate stuff I'll do from the flooring to the tile, interior framing. siding, windows door trim blah blah blah of which theres tons of to do!!! I figure me and three guys will work for that. I can get them ...especially in the fall winter months.
All I have to do is get the job....sure would be nice!!!!!!! Wonder how many clogs'll be in the wheels between now and the proverbial THEN to try and get through.
Now I know how Obama must feel...LOL
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.org
"I am Andybuildz and I approve this post"
rent rooms in your house
heck...... put them up as room & board......
katrina would love to cook & clean for your customers ..... wouldn't she ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
rent rooms in your house
Yeh...I'm sure Katrina'd love that...actually she probably wouldn't care at all.
5000 sq ft here for us two little people. I forget what the other side of my house looks like...lol. Can't wait to heat it this winter.
YOu wouldn't even recognize this place Mike...you were one of the only BT'ers that saw it from the beginning. Doesn't seem like al lthat long ago...looking back. The place looks incredable now especially with established landscaping now and all the t's crossed and i's dotted.
One big problem was three little things the town JUST did to us. Put THREE stop signs right in front of my house. Bastids!!! Justr last week I spent 3K on 6 huge evergreens to hide some of that.
Now I have to move my sign....It's always sumpin'!
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new trees in front of my sign in the rain
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http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.org
"I am Andybuildz and I approve this post"
hey nice job sign....
View ImageMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
did you bury shaggy under the sign ?
ain't heard hide nor hair of himMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I spoke to him once a cpl of months ago but he was real brief and all he said was I should kill someone so he'd have a good case to work on...oy...lol.
Yeh...thanks on the sign compliment...only problem with my signs are they're TOO nice. I'm afraid to leave them on a job cuz I KNOW they'll get stolen. I won't even tell you what I paid for em'!! I need to get soime smaller chreaper ones just like it I think.
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http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.org
"I am Andybuildz and I approve this post"
andy
I looked at your pictures of the house.
In our market in NW IA that house would have trouble selling for 200K.
For 750K you can buy a big fancy house, with 10 acres, horse stables (big), indoor riding area and another large insulated wokshop storage building.
Only in America.
Rich
arch
I live in the land of free estimates.
My excel sheet for figuring bills has 1 hour for estimating and 1/2 hr for billing.
All bills get this 1 1/2 billing. Some get more hours than that.
So in essence I charge for estimates when I get the job by tacking on a couple of extra hours.
Rich
Rich
Randy, please elaborate on what type of remodeling you are doing.
I don't charge for estimates or proposals but we did sell another design package today!
Jim, we do kitchens, bathrooms, mother-in-law suites, additions, all kinds of repairs, doors, windows, paint, tile, flooring, almost anything for the home. We consider small jobs loss leaders to gain new clients for when they need something larger.
-Randy
OK, estimates are free and are very rough in nature, usually discussed in the initial meeting. Then a detailed proposal is prepared, sometimes with drawings. What will people willingly pay for this proposal? Depending on the complexity of the project, one to eight hours can be spent preparing this document (which is also the agreement when it's signed by the client). How many potential clients will refuse? Those who do refuse, were they wasting my time anyway? We try very hard to "prequalify" the client before ever going to the initial site visit to weed out the tire kickers, those with unrealistic expectations, and those without adequate budgets.
-Randy
your screen name says architect...you do small designs for free ?are you kidding me ?you have a vast body of knowledge... way more than your average customer
that knowledge is worth moneywe do proposals for fees ranging from $400 to $2000... and it is not refundable if we get the jobdesign fees are separatebut all design fees also include a Proposal to buildMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, if I understand you correctly, your proposals do not include construction drawings?
right... although they usually do include prints with lot's of photos & text
i import .jpg photos of existing conditions into Chief and incorporate those into the proposalBUT.. if there is actual design involved ( beyond photos of existing conditions )... first we do a design proposal.... " i will design such & such for x amount and the design will include a fixed price proposal based on the design "Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I worked up a "Pre Construction Services Aggreement" last year with the help of my beancounter and attorney and essentially it went /worked like this.
Potential customer calls me and says they have a project in mind and want me to take a look at it.
I scheduled a site visit and walkthrough with HO and hopefully they had plans/drawings and we didn't have to spend a bunch of time waving arms and pointing fingers.
After I saw the project and made a quick determination if it's even something I wanted to do I told them that if they wanted me to put together a proposal (not an estimate) I would like to be compensated for my time to make the proposal. It's been my experience that 9 times out of 10 people are kickin the tires and just want to know what "X" will cost. I tell them that I'm not building /mass producing widgits and that we don't have access to historical data to determine an accurate market price for said widgits. There are a lot of variables affecting the cost of each individual project like material costs, hassle factors like humping materials up and down two flights of stairs vs a street level access etc. and they all seemed to appreciate that explaination so I would then tell them about the PCS Agreement.
At that point If they still wanted me to do a proposal we signed the aggreement and I would go away and over the course of next few days and I'd make arrangemnents to have the subs I want to use come in and weigh in on their price as and get as close to very detailed and accurate proposal and allowed for some slop and price allowances for unknowns as I can. Then I present it to them. If they want to procede with the project with me as their contractor then I waive the PCSA fee. If they choose to not move on the project and have me do the project or go with somebody else then they pay me for my time and I bill out at my usual rate for the hours I put into the proposal.
BjR
Your approach makes sense BjR. Do you offer your PCS at a fixed fee or open ended hourly contract? What is the ratio of people who refuse to move forward with the PCS contract vs those that do? How many of your PCS clients actually choose you to build the project?
Jim,
I bill out my time for doing the proposal at my usual hourly rate.
I started doing this about a year ago and although I haven't kept any stats on it I know out of the 13 projects I've looked at so far in 2008 7 went for it and chose me as their contractor and the others didn't want to sign the PCSA and go that route.
BjR
Randy,
It depends on your market.. If you have as much work as you'd like charging a fee for a estimate is logical if you lack work and are looking for added income this is a sure way to lose more work..
The real issue is time involved.. if you are standing there and shooting rough estimate numbers off the top of your head it would be pretty hard to justify a fee.
(lawyers standard practice is the first visit is free to see if a case exists and if they can help you)
If on the other hand they invite you to drive to their location and spend some time looking etc.. now you can be justified in asking for a fee..
Again depends on market conditions..
frenchy...c'mon...you're the super salesmanwhat i am really doing is pre-qualifying my cusomerAND pre-selling thembetween you and jim... i bet you can even tell me what sales technique i'm using ( i don't know what name it has )i pre-qualify over the phone..
i take my portfolio and present itwe talk about their projectthen i qualify themdo they bite ? 9 out of 10 do and if they bite on the proposal fee ..what are my odds of closing when i present the Proposal ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restorete ?
Mike
What you are doing is absolutely correct in your situation. However you clearly know your market and have enough work to avoid time wasters..
That wasn't the situation that was presented..
The true situation is rather difficult to judge by what was written. I certainly may be wrong in my guesstimation of the conditions but a second opinion is worth a consideration..
As for what you are doing by prequalifing, that's excellant technique further when you collect that fee you have the most powerful tool possible to close in that fear of loss is always greater than anticipation of reward..
Another words people are highly unlikely to want to lose the fee you've already collected attempting to find someone willing to do the work cheaper..
The small sell to get the big sale close..
"small sell to get the big sale" close
i knew there was a method to my madness !
and you are absolutely right..... once i make the sale of the proposal... my confidence level goes thru the roof
all i have to do is not get greedy, yet price for a profitMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I understand that concept. I'm measuring another house tomorrow. We typically ask 3500 and for that we include enough construction docs to get a permit. We also supply structural stamp for structure and foundation.The "small sale" is actually easy if they truly are going to do a project. We get an inside edge on the project because by the time we are bidding the project, we have developed a relationship. Thanks for turning me onto CA. It makes me look like I know what I'm doing...wink-wink.
have you tried importing .jpg images into your remodeling documents?
i find that resizing them in irfan makes them just right for clarity and not clogging up Chief (or my printer ) with large files
what are you using for a printer ?
we have an HP 500 design Jet (24 " rollfeed )
the format we use is 18 x 24
but we could go up to 24 x 36 if we wanted
if we trim the margins....an 18 x24 folds to 8.5 x 11....so it all goes in a common file folder....or a 3-ring binderMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I typically don't print anything but when I do we are printing full size but in any event, we outsource all of it. At .25 sq ft...it's pretty hard to justify a printer. I have imported jpgs and pdfs into the construction docs. I use the pdf scans of property surveys to create simple site plans. I'd be interested to know what kind of pictures you use and how you use them in plans.
send me your mailing addy and i'll stick some in the mailMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore