How many of you feel successful in your business?
I never really have. I never made enough money or had enough work to feel like I made it even after all the years I had been doing it.
Folks say success isn’t always measured by money but realistically I think it is. I mean you can say “I’m happy” or “I like what I do” but if you can’t pay the bills than its just kind of a false happiness.
Replies
Folks say success isn't always measured by money but realistically I think it is.(quote)
NAAA.......Success depends entirely upon your definition as you see it for yourself.......
Me? Money never met much..... as long as I can pay the bills that is.....
Happiness? Don't know exactly what that means...it comes and goes like an emotion..........
Now freedom.....that's everything to me. I'm successful when I'm free...and being free from other peoples expectations is the greatest freedom of all.
I consider my self to be a very successful man, but I may be the only person feeling that way :-)
My sentiments as well, it is a matter of perspective and the standards against which you are judging. ""Happiness? Don't know exactly what that means...it comes and goes like an emotion.........."" Think that could be because "happiness" is an emotion? ;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Think that could be because "happiness" is an emotion?(quote)Yeah.....it is transitory as road rage I guess.My idea of success is when I build a really good structure that generates a WOW factor from the HO.........or a really far out piece of furniture I designed myself......money per say? I make a bid hoping to generate a few bucks, but I have lost my #### and still felt successful if I did a really good job.......and like the old cliché.........you can only take with you what you have given away.
You really nailed it, jj.
Success is getting what you want,
Happiness is wanting what you get.
I'm having fun in my business and I often feel like one of the happiest guys on the planet. So regardless of my total lack of market domination and extremely variable income I feel like a success.
This thing works for parenting too, I told my daughters that I don't care about their profession or fame, I just want them to be happy. So far they both seem happy so I consider myself a success as a parent as well.
m
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
"Success is getting what you want,
Happiness is wanting what you get.""so I consider myself a success as a parent as well"So, as a parent... you get what you want ?;o)
Politics: the blind insulting the blind.
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
<<"Success is getting what you want,
Happiness is wanting what you get.""so I consider myself a success as a parent as well"So, as a parent... you get what you want ?;o)>>So long as what I want is a happy kid, yes ;-)
My 25 year old is an inspiration and the 10 year old is doing great too.------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Exactly!! Who gives a rip as long as you're happy. We'll leave something behind that, if taken care of, will last several hundred years. Many of the Wall Street multi millionaires and their rich buddies won't leave a trace and won't have been any happier.
Never serious, but always right.
We'll leave something behind that, if taken care of, will last several hundred years. Many of the Wall Street multi millionaires and their rich buddies won't leave a trace and won't have been any happier.
Yeah, other than a large nest egg that their children and grandchildren can live comfortably off of.View Image
I'd rather leave my children with a decent education than the opportunity to be Paris Hilton.
Never serious, but always right.
It was tongue in cheek.... no offense meant.View Image
None assumed or taken. It is about the feeling of success and I only picked happiness as my 1st choice. Believe me, happiness and wealthy would be my top 2 choices or put together my overwelming 1st choice.
With wealth I could reach my ultimate 1st choice. Have my gut reduced, my hair expanded, my face snipped, and go to Sweden for additional endowment. Now I would have reached my all time high of ultiment happiness, happier than a 4 peckered pup.
Never serious, but always right.
I've never thought I have been successful as far as money. I think if I doubled my income,I still wouldn't. I just think I am wired that way. Always a nagging feeling I should be doing better.
Of the people I have know who I consider financially successful, I have a sense they are just as happy regardless of their income. One guy says, "Its just some more zeros."
I've been in many situations where I came up short of goal or under stress because of money. I think that brings up too much focus on it.
I think I'd make more if I relaxed and had some fun.
As far as "success", one of my heroes was a janitor. He treated everyone with kindness and respect. He was honest. He was constantly tinkering around with gadgets to do a better job easier. In my opinion, he was a better man than some of the rich guys making the headlines.
No.
Oak River Mike
Very good question. Honestly ask yourself what amount of money it would take to make you happy. I bet that amount would change dramatically every five years. We can all chase this imaginary lover, she is elusive.
I bet you have happiness in some real obvious places that you see and touch every day. Money is a tool...I have seen amazing stuff crafted with saws and chisels. And real #### constructed with expensive tools. Keep up the good work and good things will come. stinky
I've come to understand the three stages of conscious being and those are.
Acceptance.
Enjoyment.
Enthusiasm.
Success lies in living with all three in harmony. And as they say 'Do what you love and the money will follow' is true to a certain extent..But if you accept that you are not "RICH" and enjoy all the processes of just being a BEING in the present moment, you will have the enthusiasm to get "lost" in the ego-less state of being. That to me is Success. And by exhibiting the enthusiasm, people and paying people are attracted to that trait.
BTW, I CAN pay my bills, I don't have gobs of extra cash, and I keep it simple, by not lusting for material things of ego, just live with in my means and focus more on that peaceful feeling that everything is just an illusion..when we finally leave the body and wake up briefly, we then recreate the illusion all over again..so if ya look at it that way..what's to want?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "
Me.
Sphere, I been gone for a while (might still be <G>), and that right there was worth coming back for.Thanks.<< I've come to understand the three stages of conscious being and those are.Acceptance.
Enjoyment.
Enthusiasm.Success lies in living with all three in harmony. And as they say 'Do what you love and the money will follow' is true to a certain extent..But if you accept that you are not "RICH" and enjoy all the processes of just being a BEING in the present moment, you will have the enthusiasm to get "lost" in the ego-less state of being. That to me is Success. And by exhibiting the enthusiasm, people and paying people are attracted to that trait.BTW, I CAN pay my bills, I don't have gobs of extra cash, and I keep it simple, by not lusting for material things of ego, just live with in my means and focus more on that peaceful feeling that everything is just an illusion..when we finally leave the body and wake up briefly, we then recreate the illusion all over again..so if ya look at it that way..what's to want?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural WoodworksRepairs, Remodeling, Restorations"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "
Me.>>
Good to see ya check in, it's been awhile eh?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Yep, been gone (from here, anyway) since about January I suppose.Getting back to the OP question, I'm sure it's a question on many people's mind in our line of business. Certainly has been for me. Until last Wednesday I was on a pretty good project; at 16:50 Wednesday the general called to say that there was mo more project, the construction financing was through a bank that was tied to IndieMac, and the bank lost 99% of its value overnight.Up until last week things were already challenging, what with the recession we aren't having, housing being down as far as it is, fuel being up as far as it is, and the consequent effect on materials prices.Now this is ridiculous. A lot of folks are going to have an even tougher time with bank failure.After reading through many of the posts here, I hope the guys who are not feeling so good about their business will go back and read what you wrote.I'm one of the folks who is feeling the pinch, to put it mildly, the past 18 months has not been good, measured by dollars and cents. I could go on at great length about all the things that have gone surprisingly wrong.On the other hand, the blessings go on even further. I've gotten to build some pretty cool stuff. I still work for myself. Although out of any 24 hour period I am working 12 of those hours, I can do so as I see fit. This of course entails a level of personal responsibility for the use of my time and my overall conduct that I have historically tried to avoid, but alas, I seem to be growing into this. <G>I choose who I work with, and those relationships have become quite valuable. Productive association with good and like-minded people usually works out well for everyone.What makes me feel the most successful is the quality of these relationships. I don't think that there is a fixed amount of work out there that we are all competing for. I am always inventing new ways to do something for someone in a way they will like at a price they can afford, and this helps the community.Last winter I had to face up to the fact that I had to let an employee go. I'd put several of his paychecks on a credit card, and I could not go on with this. He was bright, energetic, honest, hard-working, loyal, and highly talented. A young man with an unstoppable positive attitude. I'd put a lot of effort into training him, and he was the kind of person that anyone would want to hire.It was clear to both of us that my business was in deep trouble.Of course he got picked up immediately on a public works project, and they think the world of him. He stopped by the yard a few weeks later to tell me that the superintendent said he was the best and safest track hoe operator they had seen in years, and that he had a bright future. He wanted to express his thanks for what I had done for him and his sadness for what he saw happening to my business.His English is still somewhat halting, but when a man is speaking from the heart, language isn't really that big of a barrier.I thanked him for stopping by, and for his concern, and felt like I needed to explain something to him, because he felt genuinely bad about what he saw happening.I said to him, "You grew up in poverty, didn't you? I know something about that, too, and I know what it does to a family. I also know that because of the time we had together and what you learned here, there are two little girls who will never feel that. So I'm successful."Another former employee, I'd known this kid since he was in middle school, he was plenty bright, plenty tough, and just could not stay out of trouble. He did not do at all well in school.I didn't see him for a few years after he got out of high school, by then he had two kids and was bagging groceries at the local supermarket.I asked him if he wanted a job, and took him through a few projects over the course of about 13 or 14 months. I made it a point of teaching him everything I could, emphasized the importance of blueprints, arithmetic, how to use a framing square, how to build simple stairs and roofs, how to organize a job, and how to get in front of a crew and stay there.This kid could learn at least as fast as I could teach him. I don't know what is wrong with our school system, he learns just fine.Things got slow, he moved on. When I next saw him, he was a well-paid super for a custom builder. He told me if he was running less than three jobs at once he was bored.So I'm successful.Sure, I have to get the money part figured out, same as everyone else. Financial ruin is a serious matter.A certain amount of money is necessary for success, but there is no amount of money that will make anyone feel successful.Success doesn't come from the wallet, it comes from the heart.I think your three-step program is not a bad way to get there.[edit for post-coffee clarity]
Edited 7/15/2008 8:24 am by Catskinner
that was so well said i had to read it 3 times to enjoy it
Yep. I'm glad that one didn't pass under the radar.
Hey SG, good to be seen here again, and thank you.Been a little rough around the edges since I disappeared off the screen, but I must be gaining on it since I have time to be here again. <G>Is the IPA in this joint any good? I do love a good pint of bitter.
A bitter can make you better just like the blues can make you whole. Sorry for your rough time. I've been sort of avoiding this thread bec my world started working properly again this year, but i felt a bit sheepish saying so when others are struggling.
<<A bitter can make you better just like the blues can make you whole.>>I may borrow that line if you don't mind. It could find its way into a song. <G><<Sorry for your rough time. I've been sort of avoiding this thread bec my world started working properly again this year, but i felt a bit sheepish saying so when others are struggling.>>I appreciate you saying that. But besides running on nowhere near enough sleep, it certainly could have been a whole lot worse. As Bobby Bare sang Shel Silverstein's lines, " . . . but my eyes still see and my nose still works and my teeth are still in my mouth, so I guess that makes me the winner."I'm delighted that things are working your way. And I'm glad you looked in on this thread. There's no shame in success when others are failing; your real friends will take joy in that, too.
Sure, set me to music! I'm hoping for some minor chords in there...There's no shame in success, but i abhor folks who prattle about tightening one's belt when their own is stretched. Modesty is probably better ensured by not being successful by any commercial yardstick rather than a surfeit of compassion, though. My interest has never been in stability either, so i don't have much encouragement to offer those who are craving it. Simplicity is a hard sell to those who've lost what they think is rightfully theirs.
"and in the end my friend
If you have some friends
to stick with you through thick and thin
You win I'm sure" http://www.offtheroadband.com/music_mov20/smoke.mov (me on bass)M------------------
My browser keeps shutting down when I hit the link.I'll try it on another computer, and thank you.
Thanks, Bobby. That compliment means something to me, coming from you.
wow... great question.... I know i'm happy... that i look forward to everyday i get to go to work... I know i'm blessed... to those that much is given much is expected... I often don't think i give enough...
in business I have closed some... sold some...even given them away... and still keep a few.... I have never had a "goal" or a vision of where i wanted to take a business... i just worked it day to day and made the best calls i could on each given day.... I've never had a business plan... so i never knew if i did what i set out to do...
I think $$ wise i'm ok... I worry more about keeping work for others that i know depend on me so that they can pay their bills...
satisfied? yeah I'm cool with where i am... I'm not real sure I'm where i could be... most of the people i know who have done really well $$$ wise seem pretty happy... they look better and smile more than those who haven't done as well... i don't know if thats a cause or a result...
p
I worry more about keeping work for others that i know depend on me so that they can pay their bills...
I think that's the biggest hurdle I have between me and "Success". The question is: when it's time to retire, will the "kids" take care of me?http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
Success is such a variable for different folks.
I like the challenge of business. I have always kept my eye on the "money ball" but as a marker. Early on it was important to me what I made but as time went on I found it didn't matter. As long as I could live as I liked doing what I enjoyed.
Had some rough times too that made me realize the real value of it all. I am grateful to have a second shot at happiness. I realize few people meet the "right person" twice.
So my answer to the question is YES!!! I am happy and feel succesful. And will continue to feel that way if we get through the next year lol. DanT
Sometimes I am and somtimes Im not . The rest of the time Im bluffing .
Tim
I'm more like JJ, might have something to do with age.
Walked away from 2 nice businesses that permitted me to take off 3 months every year. Fall in Italy, or wherever. But after several years of searching, we couldn't find anywhere in the Denver environs we wanted to live. Long vacations and a Pantera weren't enough. Nor was being backed up a year or more with furniture commissions.
In Va, we finally found where we really wanted to live. Wake up everyday. Not doing the travel we once did, nor do we miss/need it. Never saw that income again.
Very few people make so much money they couldn't spend it all. For the rest of us, it's a matter of choices. How much is enough? Both work and money.
Ideally, you strike a balance between work and spending. Bills don't just happen, you choose them. Same for your work. Unless you subscribe to the more toys theory, success is finding that balance.
Good luck on your road.
PAHS works. Bury it.
I certainly don't feel successful in my business because it went bust up in MI LOL!
I'm not successful here, yet, but I will be.
Happiness is a state of mind that really has nothing to do with success but success can certainly contribute to someone's happiness. Not making enough money to pay the bills will dampen anybody's day but even the poorest can be happy. Striving for success often is more fun than achieving the success.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm very happy with the woman I've found to spend my life with. I live in a beautiful part of the country. I really appreciate my house and my family. But I worry about getting hurt or sick and it all coming crashing down. I make enough to buy health insurance, and I manage to put a little in the bank for retirement, but it won't be but a drop in the ocean.
I always feel like I'm just keeping my head above water. Seems no matter how much I make, it just barely covers the bills.
I'm busy...booked up for a couple of years, but it still doesn't relieve the anxiety of living paycheck to paycheck.
I would really love to reduce my anxiety over money. Not sure how to do that.
I also have a background anxiety about time running out in my life to do some of the things I want to do. I don't have a bucket list per se, but I feel like I'm "letting the days go by, letting the water hold me down." Like I'm frittering away the wild wonderful open-ended opportunity that is life and time is running out.
Steve
"I'm busy...booked up for a couple of years, but it still doesn't relieve the anxiety of living paycheck to paycheck.I would really love to reduce my anxiety over money. Not sure how to do that."You must not have booked at the right price or there wouldn't be any anxiety. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
>>You must not have booked at the right price or there wouldn't be any anxiety.<<I may very well not have booked at the right price, but knowing me, even at the right price I would still have the anxiety.I work cost plus, and I know that if I'm working I'm making enough money. Regardless, I'm charging at the upper end of what the market will bear here. I live in a very economically depressed area. One reason it's such a beautiful part of the country, is that it's been in an economic depression since the 1850's.Steve
I'm with Jim Allen, booked out 2 yrs. hence. I certainly hope your NOT chargeing the same even 1 yr from now.
Exactly. Maybe I'd accept the first month booking at the substandard rates but I'd be renogotiating everything beyond that. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I feel successful..but not being measured in dollars. I cant put a price on going out to my stairshop and doing something that I love. It pays the bills....and I do have one extragance ....flying...that makes me feel a little guilty spending money on.
I know many here make tons more money...and that also would be part of being successful. I have been told many times that I should have several guys and making lots more money...but I know I wouldnt enjoy that extra money with the headaches that would be tied with it. I like shutting the shop door when I get a whim to leave.
Stan
>>I'd accept the first month booking at the substandard rates but I'd be renogotiating everything beyond that.<<My jobs are not small. I'm in the middle of two that have been ongoing for more than one year, and I have one in the hole that will probably take the better part of two years. I don't feel right raising rates in the middle of a job. I'm going to give my partner a raise because the way my contract is worded is that for this project I will charge 35.00 per hour for me, and cost plus 20% for all other labor and materials. So if my partner's cost to me goes up, I can justify it. But I signed on the line for 35.00/hr. That may sound low to you city folks, but that really is at the very upper reaches of what very good people are charging around here.And like I said, I would probably still be anxious making twice that much. It's not about the money really, it's about my psychological reaction to the uncertainties of self-employment.I own my house outright, have no college to pay for, have a new truck with only a 300 dollar payment. All I have to come up with is my grocery money, car costs, utilities and something to put in the bank. I make the maximum contribution to my IRA every year, and still have ten grand or so left over to put into the house (which needs another 100K of work or so to be done). I've not been out of work for the entire 15 years I've been doing this for a living. But still there is this nagging low-level anxiety.I think some of it has to do with the knowledge that I can't do this kind of very physical work forever. But it's the physical part of it that I like. The business part of it is just a necessary evil. When the day comes that I have to sit in the office all day, I will be very unhappy, and how successful will that be?Steve
I am also getting what I feel to be a decent rate in a competitive market. I'm happy doing the work but find that it is better financialy and schedule wise to do more and more administrative work. I always thought putting the tool belt down would not be fun anymore but there are new challenges to learn and I'm actually finding it interesting as well. I also find a lot of satisfaction finding work for the crew and keeping them afloat in their lives. Just saying you might be surprised at how you will like doing something differently."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
trimguy,I'm glad you are enjoying the change. I know I'll have to go that way sooner or later. I did a year as an estimator and designer. I hated the estimating, and the designing was boring because the owner really micromanaged the design, and just wanted me to be the CAD jockey, which is not a lot of fun. And it was in a basement windowless office.But knocking off early for golf on Fridays was fun.I did a year as a lead-carpenter for a small contractor. That was kind of nice. Got to pretty much call the shots, but avoid all the office work. But I like being my own boss. I like being responsible for the whole enchilada. Just don't like the stress that comes with it.Steve
you need to spend some time hanging out with Sphere
From what I've been reading, I'd like to hang out with you.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
If we are drinking from the same well......you already are:-)
I feel successful on many different levels. First and foremost I have been able to stay in business for 10 years now and have managed to pay the bills and pay the people that ave worked for me over the years on time and a decent wage. Second, I have been able to choses my jobs 90% of the time and not get stuck doing things I hate doing. Most of my customers are repeat customers and often have more good things to say than bad things about me and my crew and how we perform. I always wish I could make more money since everytime I get close to making a profit expenses go up and I am right back at break even. but I have the experience to apply to the situation which may enable me to earn more at some point. I am a patient person. I have developed a lot of knowledge on the business and am always learning and growing therefore it is not a dead end job. I hope to keep growing my business but in the meantime, I am feeling successful for what I have accomplished.
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
http://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
Career wise, i've never been as discontent as I have been this week.
We've been slow and I cant finance glass of water right now so that makes buying another house a little tough.
In reality I know it is just a short bad spell and i'm actually pretty lucky, I mean I own 6 houses and I know enough to know that I wont stop there.
I'm pretty heavily motivated. I guess I just needed a day or two to wallow in the "self pity".
Feeling much better now...
Yes, but;
Mine is a different take on the question, amybe even unique here, as not in busineess for myself but work for a large corporation.
Grew up so cheap that I've always had more money than I could comfortably spend since late teens; thus money has nothing to do with feeling successful or not.
Both sons and their kids look to be self sufficient and they married intelligent women.
Was paranoid about nuclear war when a kid, so worked defense and missiles most my life and still do. Have not had a nuclear war, the Berlin wall fell, so figure maybe had some small contribution, thus feel successful.
Being successful in business means that the business serves my personal aims; both the basic needs and the higher aspirations.
I've found that focusing on fulfilling my higher aspirations puts the rest of it in a simpler perspective, easier to achieve.
Similar to: "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all things will be added unto you".
I'm going to be 38 this summer. I started my 4 year apprenceship at 30. Before that I snowboarded, and got paid (little) and mountainbiked (built trails) and got paid little and made beer and wine for a living (and got paid little).. My dad was worried. He raised me, remarried and his wife's kids are uber successful. My step bro is a lawyer, and my step sis is a super successful media professional. I did my apprenticeship,,which I wanted to do when my first kid was born. I got my ticket, aquired tools and ventured out on my own. This summer, I built a deck and a walkway for my dad. He was blown away at how fast it was done! He was proud. So I'm successful #1. I made dad happy! We started with a duplex some 12 years ago,, had kids (2) and when Abi was six months we bought a second house and kept the duples. I'm successful #2. We own (the bank owns) two houses! I do renos. I do timberframing, subbing for a buddy who I love very much and respect. There seems to be work in both,, and I keep a paycheque coming in, and when there's not much I fix up my two houses. I'm successful #3.
My kids don't have television, do archery, catch frogs, go canoeing, camping enjoy cottages, read and exel at school. I'm successful #4.
I'm happy,, my partner is happy, (we never married). We live in a constant state of chaos, the houses are fixer uppers,, and I'm plowing my way threw!
Isn't it all just a state of mind? Keep on the sunny side! I know that it is different for each of us,, but let me tell you this: When I was younger, and on a commissioned sales job,, When I really needed some money it wouldn't happen. The guys who were making the big bucks kept making the big bucks. I'm not sure what this means,, but I think it has to do with frame of mind. Work yourself up,, and keep yourself up.
Hope this helps! And, yes,, I'm doing just fine. I've got more toys than anyone else at the wedding, funeral etc,, and know how to use them. I charge more and more every day, and keep getting customers. I eat well,, drink modest wine, and have beautiful kids. Life is good!
dave
Great life, the way you've gone about it. Warms the cockles of me heart, laddie.
Isn't it all just a state of mind? Keep on the sunny side!
One of the great bits of philosophy I've ever encountered, very perceptive and exceedingly practical, comes from Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. Paraphased for simplicity and clarity it says: "What the mind dwells on, it becomes".
If you keep your mind on that which gives you the most joy, it logically follows that you will find joy in every moment.
It's interesting how the question is posed. Feeling something and being something are often not the same things at all.
My definition of success is if you can make a living by doing something. So yes, I am successful.
Now...everything else is subjective. Definitions, living within one's means, happiness, contentment with one's station, all add up to answer the question you ask. The answer is ultimately how you hold the beautiful flower in your hand.
do i feel succesful,in money terms no.
i should,i have been able to only work for one boss since 1975 ,he's the bigest #### in town .thats me. as far as i can remember i have never missed a meal or got a notice my house payment wasn't made.
i never have known how to make money,been in the auto body shop bussiness for about 25 years,had a car lot for 10 plus,now i'm a landlord. in all those times at the end of the year i didn't make as much as the guy who works out at boeing bucking rivets.
my one big strength is i know how to strech what i do make,so i have been able to aquire assets.used to be i judged everything on what it's hard value was.if it was a toy ,when i sell a year from now it better be worth something.
now in family i feel pretty good,i have 2 daughters one 32 the other19. they both have good heads on thier shoulders and thats all i can ask for,hope i helped contribute to that.
maybe they day will come when i make more than the factory worker and feel like i am succesful larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
I have no idea really. Some days I feel as though I'm on top of the world in regards to my business and my work. Other days I feel like a complete failure and that it's all going to come crashing down very soon.
I guess it's because I've yet to define, in my mind, exactly what it would take for me to feel as though my business were a success. Maybe a one year backlog. Maybe steady substantial transfers to my savings account. Maybe having all the equipment and the truck paid off. Maybe having the house paid off. Maybe not living in fear of April 15th every year. I don't really know.
I don't think I'll ever really feel successful until all of those things happen. In a nutshell... I think I need to feel true iron clad financial security that I won't lose the things I've got in order to truly feel succesful in a business sense. And I'm not sure that's ever achievable in my business so maybe that's why I try not to think about it too much.
I don't need anything else than what I already have. I don't need a boat. I don't need the beach house on the Cape. I just need to know that no matter what happens, my wife will have our house and will be financially secure. I should probably just up my life insurance policy and then I could relax a bit. Which brings up another interesting point.... it often crosses my mind that if the shiznit ever really hit the fan with my business.... my wife would probably be better off if I was out of the picture. Kinda twisted. But kinda true.
As a person, I do feel successful. The road I've chosen hasn't been an easy one or one that I'd recommend to anyone. And I'm not just talking about my occupation. I've been a lot of things already and I'm only 35. I've been a college kid. I've been a college drop-out. I've been a beach bum. I've been homeless. I've been a heroin addict (9 yrs clean and sober). I've been a Marine. I've been an ex-Marine. And now I'm a framer. None of it has been easy.... but all of it has been rewarding in it's own way. Some of it was rewarding for the experience alone. Some of it was rewarding simply for having made it through it. I've had some pretty dark days. Dark enough that if it all ended today you could look at where I'm at now and say I was successful.
But do I feel successful? Just for today........
much like Brian ...
some days yes ... some days no.
all depends on the cash flow, bills paid ahead of time ... bill past due.
I had this talk with a buddy I consider "successful" He's had his own autobody shop for 20 yrs. When I tried to cry ... he reminded me ... I was an employee when I had my boy. The boy is now 6 yrs old ... so less than 6 yrs this go round of self employment.
he also reminded me he bought his house from his grandmother for 1$ ... and I'm paying a mortgage. He's also go no kids while I sent my boy to the best daycare we could find when he was younger and have plans to send the girl to the same in a year or so.
So ... I'd be at the same level of "toys and comfort" if me and him were apples to apples.
as it is ... I don't feel "successful" ... I feel "ok".
have done OK ... and better do OK or better in the future.
the one thing I will give myself, as both my bud and my wife give me credit for ...
when work disappears ... I hustle.
I'm not afraid of shaking the trees, calling everyone I ever met, and everyone I never met to find the next job. I'm the king of cold calling.
I would love to rely on past contacts and referals ... but that doesn't keep the cash flow flowing ... not for the high paying jobs, and I refuse ... and can't afford ... to work cheap.
So I gotta hustle.
which ... I don't mind. I actually like that end of things.
every year the network gets bigger ... ever year filling the slow times gets a bit easier.
hoping some day ... I'll be successful.
I'd call successful the basic bills paid ... and a guaranteed 2 week vacation at the Jersey Shore paid cash in hand ... and ... April 15th in the bank.
not too much to ask for, is it?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
he also reminded me he bought his house from his grandmother for 1$ ... and I'm paying a mortgage.
You hit on a good point right there. We didn't all start at the same point and we're not all running the same race.
DW was saying recently that a friend of mine must be doing very well since his wife had quit working while their two kids are young. But they live in a small house bought for them by the parents. Their utility bills are probably half what ours are and they live without a lot of the "luxuries" we have like cable and high speed internet.
DW sees that as "success" because she doesn't want to work (and she didn't work much when our daughter was young), but she doesn't want to give up any of the trappings of success to do that and if she's not earning, she's spending.
I've got a sub that has a new truck, new car, new four wheeler, new boat, and is one missed payment away from losing it all including his house.
I've got one payment left on my boom lift and about 18 mos. left on a home equity note and then I'm debt free until my daughter hits college. We set up a fund for that a long time ago, but college prices have spiraled so much, it's probably not enough. I need to get more into my retirment fund, but I'm pretty well on track there.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
Deep question.
My biggest fear in life is to become complacent, or lazy. I use goals to keep my edge. Sometimes, I reach my goals, sometimes I don't. When I reach a goal, I don't take time to enjoy it. I think of another goal, or spend time trying to figure out why other goals weren't reached. That's just the way my personality is.
My dad always says: "People who say 'money can't buy happiness' don't have any money."
I don't know if I agree with him, but when my assets out value my liabilities, I always have a little more bounce in my step.
I have no idea if I'm successful or not, but what does it matter. I woke up this morning, and I plan to enjoy that for the rest of the day.
Stress is a big part of real life, and I just try to deal with it as best I can.
It's not too late, it's never too late.
Here's another angle on success, a little Sunday contemplation.
Do you live your highest beliefs daily or do you turn away when someone else's human rights are violated?
If someone you're working with advocates restricting a student's right to free speech on college campuses, for example (or something else which is clearly unConstitutional) when and how do you speak up in defense of our nation's hard won liberties?
Do you consider the defense of personal liberty to be something which is someone else's responsibility or do each of us hold some responsibility to stand up for the high standards which are spelled out in our Constitution?
Does that kind of responsibility extend to business and personal relationships?
Can you be a success as a human being if you don't defend the liberties of all people?
It really is a NEW world out there, I'll defend anyone's liberties, but I pick the liberty. I'm a "Rather Safe Than Sorry" kind of guy. Alot of the old ways and rules just "Don't Fly" any more. I'm a VERY realistic person.
It really is a NEW world out there, I'll defend anyone's liberties, but I pick the liberty. I'm a "Rather Safe Than Sorry" kind of guy. Alot of the old ways and rules just "Don't Fly" any more. I'm a VERY realistic person.
Being very realistic, you must be able to appreciate that life probably isn't going to cooperate with what you think is the most worthwhile liberty to defend.
Stuff happens in our daily lives that sometimes brings our beliefs into conflict with other interests, financially.
The example I used, finding yourself in conversation with several "business friends" who want to restrict a college student's right to free speech, on his own campus, just because they don't agree with what he said...where does your duty lie there?
Do you defend your fellow citizen's right to free speech or do you remain mute because to argue might put part of your income in jeopary? Does fear of financial loss overcome your sense of duty to all U.S. citizens, some from past generations who have fought and often died to gain these very significant human rights for us all?
Edited 6/22/2008 10:26 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I have my limits on free speech. I'm blessed to be in the enviable position where $$$$ have never come between me and what I think and feel. I've been my own boss since I left the USMC in 68. Some times though I do get into trouble for speaking my mind and saying what everyone else in the room is thinking, ask my wife.
I suspect that most marines who went through boot in that era are pretty outspoken. I've worked with a few of you guys on union jobs and I'm proud to say that I survived that experience. ;-)
The Hudson Valley is a big beautiful place where's home? I grew up in Irvington-on-HudsonNY
Western Orange County.
Money cant buy happiness is the biggest bunch of BS I've ever heard and If you have a family to support you know exactly what I mean. When its a struggle to pay bills nobody can be that happy.
We haven't had enough extra money to do anything like a one day vacation or something for 2 years or so. As a person I feel successful because I have great kids and a great woman, but its times when you cant do anything fun for them because we need groceries or pay the utility bill that I get real down.
If money cant make YOU happy give it to me Ill make it real happy over here. So in the end I don't feel real successful but Ill never stop trying to be that's what drives me everyday.
I believe money can't buy happiness. But it sure as hell can buy you a yacht that can pull right up next to it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
Mike,
work,money,marriage, kids, spirtual matters, intellectual developement, health..................
at any one time somethings in your life will be doing great---somethings less great.
nobody is ever a "success"-----if you view that as reaching a point where you think " now i have it made"
Everything is always in a state of flux-nothing is permanent. even businesses we view as a "success" are often running right on the edge with constant pressure to sell jobs to keep the workers busy.
you might be suprised at how modest success really is--------
a few years ago I met a guy who i considered then very successfull- I STILL consider him a very successfull businessman----but in conversation he happened to mention the most he had ever made in a year-------------------
gotta tell you I was really suprised at the modest amount he mentioned---there was absolutely nothing wrong with the amount---it just didn't seem worth what I view as the hassles.- that's ok--HE would be miserable in MY business( heck-half the time I am miserable in my business, LOL)-- remarkably-the amount he mentioned was very achievable for a great many employees--with way less hassles
but the person I am thinking of---is very successfull- he does the work he wants to do, I suppose--- he has a lot of integrity and he is happy---so he is successfull.
In my case---- in the spring of 2007 I had a modest amount of work---kind of slow actually--but i was making progress in moving my business in the direction I wanted it to go long term--not huge progress--but progress---and on a personal level things were going pretty well
then-literally---a huge amount of work fell out of the sky---a hail storm---and i have been swamped.
not to complain-- but i was happier in the spring of 2007 with modest levels of work---doing smaller jobs--working everyday with my youngest son and progressing in the direction I wanted to go.
In a few weeks i will be all caught up, able to scale back--and pick up where i was in the spring of 2007----and much happier again.
Basically-- it's the small things that make me happy day to day
Coffee at 5:00 AM
at work early enough to spend a few minutes getting the tool belt cleaned out and organized for the day
end of the day---all the materials neatly stacked and the customers property clean
a well organized"to do list" with all the items checked off
A few spare moments to hoe out the truck
the dump trailer bed going up--knowing 32sq. of shingle debris is gonna slide out the back--instead of unloading by hand
the sense that I can pick what direction i want to move my business--and work toward that goal
clean sheets and in bed by 8:00 pm, LOL
all the little things-- a 2 minute walk through the garden before i go off to work each morning---and so on, and so on.
i stumbled across this a week or so ago..............
"We don't run to success--whatever success is---we flee in it's general direction untill success hits us in the face. The best executives,best sales people, best tradesmen,builders,promoters, and professionals all have,at the bedrock core,a healthy fear of not living up to their obligations.----- The duties of obligation are not flogged on late night infomercials because there is nothing flashy about commitment. Hardwork without shortcuts or excuses just doesn't sell on cassette,disc.or video..............."
Very best wishes to you Mike,
stephen
Thank you Stephen. Very well said and a piece of advice I will definitely print out and reference in the future.
MIke
This question really is about dealing with emotions rather than about "Success".
Money issue is a "Fear" , best put in this quote for me: " Fear of Economic Insecurity"
Ever had nothing and still been happy? I have.
Ever had lots of disposable income and been unhappy? I have.
Ever been unhappy in a crowd of friends? I have
Ever been happy being alone? I have.
The happiest people I know are those that have overcome their fears.
Are you really afraid of having no money or are you afraid that you may have to face others and admit it and ask for help? The "No Money" isn't an emotion, neither is "Success" they both are neutral in terms of emotions. What you "Feel " is the emotion you have.
Judge yourself by your inner being, forget judging yourself by the standards of people around you .
Mike,
In business, definitely no. Been on my own, 7 years, and been a carpenter for 23 years. Things are slow here, but heck , half of my work is in Michigan. What do I expect.
I've had a couple of great years, and a couple of losers too. The trick is to learn what made the difference. Haven't quite got that yet. Close though, I think.
I've been making some big changes in my business structure, the last year or so. Hopefully, for the better. Time will tell. The only thing I know for sure is that I love to build things with my hands, and plan on doing that as long as my body will allow.
I have an awesome DW, and a couple of pretty great kids. Get along great with the inlaws, and have a few really good friends.
That is what makes me fell successful!!!
One of my friends has a saying, when asked how he is doing. He replies " livin the dream..... if I was any better, I'd be Brudoggie!!" And he could buy and sell me a hundred time over.
Best of luck!
Brudoggie
Here's something to consider:
"people who inherit wealth"
Statistically most end up losing it
Did you know the statistics are that most are not able to sustain and only small percentage are able to maintain or exceed what was given to them on a silver platter
Mike,
From some of the posts I've read from you lately it seems like you're going thru what I went thru.
The decision to close up shop and move on, even for just a while, is never easy. It leaves disappointment and doubts and a certain empty feeling after you've poured so much of yourself into it.
SO let the soul searching begin. It may take a while before you get the answer you seek.
As for success? Yes, on occasion I've felt successful. Not often, not often enough and certainly not for any length of time.
The first year I was in business my accountant was in shock when I went in to talk about my 3rd quarter. He couldn't believe I was doing so well. Along the way there were quarters where I did better and quarters where he was surprised I still had my house.
A business is little more than a collection of systems that DOES NOT require you to be there every second of every day and yet still generates income. It doesn't require your constant labor. It has a value beyond you.
So, in my mind a Successful business would pay my bills and allow me to take a weeks vacation and not have to work up to the second I left and then kill my self for two weeks after i came home.
I never got that far. But more to the point, a lot of people never do. Instead they become very busy sole proprietors who work on "Jobs", but never the business. Too many people work and struggle for peanuts to the detriment of themselves and their families for little reason other than they can't give up the notion of 'Being their own boss" or "Owning a business".
More than one good carpenter I know is a terrible businessman and their lives improved 1000% they day they realized that and went to work for someone who was a good busniess man.
It's time to take a step back and decide what success means to you. Then look at ways to achieve that. It may not have anything to with business anymore.
One thing I did do, and it was painful, was look thru the records of every job. I looked for my mistakes and successes. I made a big list. And then I found solutions to my failures.
It was a little easier for me to pack it in. My daughter was sick, I couldn't keep her insured and I had burned up every dime of cash and capital as well as every penny of credit line. No choice left.
I may try again some time, but if I do it will be a BUSINESS and I will concentrate on BUSINESS, not on each individual jobs every nail. I can hire people for that.
By the way, The HAPPIEST I've been in the last 22 yrs was being the lead on a framing crew for someone else. Even the winters and summers. Best job I ever had.
Hi Robert,
Thanks for the reply. Your insight was exactly what I have been thinking and feeling. Yeah, I am in a bit of a rut not being able to figure what direction to turn. I knew I had to shut down the business as it was losing money. I was able to pay myself but in the end the business was at a loss. The phone just wouldn't ring and I couldn't hunt up any jobs. Any maybe I am spoiled or just too picky but I don't want to do small jobs like hanging one door or putting in one window. I just can't do those for any profitability. There is nothing wrong with doing them...I just don't want to.
I know alot of guys here are happy with those jobs and all but I want more.
I have started back at school and am just looking for a job. I need to make a certain amount to meet our standard of living. Anything less and it just doesn't work.
I would love to be able to say I can do what I want and be happy with it but the bottom line is that what matters most right now being 39 with a lot of goals for the future is the "bottom line".
I hate to say money matters but it does.
Mike
nothing wrong with money matters.
forget all the romantic #### ... I do this work to make money.
if another situation comes along where I can make more money ...
I'm there.
money might not buy happiness but gimme money and I'll make my own happiness.
one of my favorite sayings ...
"I'm here to make money , not to make friends".
I got enough friends ... I need more money!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I like that quote Jeff. I have enough friends too!
Hey the wife and I are coming up to your neck of the woods next week. Seeing a concert on the 2nd and then north to the Clarion area to see her family.
Hey the wife and I are coming up to your neck of the woods next week.
Then drop him off some money. He's got enough friends.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
LMAO....View Image
;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
good plan
thanks!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Mike,
I'm with Jeff on this. Anyone who says money can't buy happiness just hasn't found their happiness store.
Which do you think would make you happier:
Driving the 10 y/o truck to work like a dog all day Saturday until you make X dollars so you can pay the mortgage?
OR
Driving the 911 (hell, even a clean used early 90's) to Dunkin Donuts to grab coffee for the wife and munchkins for the kids?
Wish I had a good answer for ya, but to be honest it's been over 5 years and I still think about it way too much. I get my fix by working for friends or my own projects on weekends when I can.
I have a real business plan for two seperate specialized businesses on my computer. Some day. Probably not right away. Both depend on an aging "House Population", meaning houses 15 years or older.
The latest boom should put the upswing in my area at just about the time I can start collecting my Pension.
I'm betting both would work in your area in a few years. Nothing complicated. Ask if you want any ideas.
Maybe it's time to start a long term plan?
And I, like you, have a minimum acceptable standard of living and I will not ask my family to accept less.
Where in PA will you be?
Robert,
Sure, I'd be open to hearing them! I am open to anything right now while I am job-hunting.
Heading to Pittsburgh for the show (and to drop of Jeff's money) :) and then up to the Clarion area after that.
Mike
Mike,
I see two really big areas of wear on a home where i think a pretty decent business could be built.
First is roofing.
I've put on my fair share of roofs and made a few bucks at it. I DON'T wanna be banging on shingles at 42 y/o.
On the other hadnd I know some pretty damned good roofers who are all but antisocial.
I would like to control all aspects of the reroof job, from sale to handshake and check collecting. Starting with a professional sales presentation, to the ripoffs being carted away in my container to the clean up. I think if you charge well enough to keep loyal subs, and then concentrate on the business you can stay pretty busy.
The other is a Kitchen remodeling company where almost all is done in house. That means hiring a lot of skilled people and subing very little. A showroom and a warehouse. My claim to fame would be that all the goods were compiled in my warehouse and when all the pieces were there the job would start and run nonstop until completion. I would control all the aspects typically associated with long delays. I've even looked into what is required to become a dealer or distributor for a few cabinet brands. Would also need a flooring and countertop guy on staff.
Round my way it's pretty common to hear horror stories about both kinds of jobs dragging on forever.
my claim to fame would be a start to finish job.
I like to tell the story about my SIL's friend who told me he was starting a roofing business. I asked him if he ever did any roofing and he said "no". My mouth dropped open and I muttered a weak "good luck". Secretly, I laughed and thought to myself that he was in for a rude awakening. Within two years, he had a showroom in a high rent district. The thing I didn't realize was that he was a business major with a financing degree. When he talked about starting a roofing business, he didn't mean that he was going to be the roofer....he was going to own the roofing business! He did real well in roofing. When the bankers declared him to be a millionaire, he funneled all his eggs into the custom building business. Within two years, he was broke. The roofing business was slowing in the nicer neighborhoods because of Detroit's economic slump. The showroom rent was hurting him and the spec houses sat empty and drained every penny. I talked to him a couple months ago. Life was beating him up and he was down in FL getting ready to launch a building business there. He'll be fine even though MI took back everything from him. He told me that he didn't need that high visibility showroom. A warehouse off the beaten track was the better choice: lower rent and more storage. He said that he ended up having three dump trucks on the road for tearoffs and haulaway and could have made a decent business our of just those rigs. He also told me that he was easily able to get a true 40% gross profit margin on every roofing job. He did everything with roofing subs. He had very strict rules governing the subs and they complied because he paid well and fast. He paid commission only salespeople and he told me they were very motivated and made very good money. Their compensation was 25% of the gross profit which would equate to 10% of the gross if all the costs came in properly. The good thing about the roofing business is that it is quantifiable. as compared to carpentry which is a wild azzed guess in most instances. Drywall is another good quantifiable business. I knew a guy that made a lot of money making .05 per sq ft doing drywall. His only job was to measure and order the drywall. His subs did everything else.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
He said that he ended up having three dump trucks on the road for tearoffs and haulaway and could have made a decent business our of just those rigs.
Funny thing, one of our platoon leaders here is a traditional guardsman and back home works in the family business. At first I thought he was blowing hot air about the changes he had made to the family business. Then he showed me his website. The more we talked, the more it became clear that his little container operation alone would support him in fine fashion.
But, the things I've learned about scrap and recycling in the last few months? All I can say is WOW! What an untapped goldmine. Those are his secrets though and not mine to share.
In general I've met four kinds of people in business.
1. Businessmen: They run a business. Formal wear rental or Roofing, no matter. They love Business and know it. It is trade all it's own and could easily make money out of damn near anything.
2. People who love their work: They love the thing they do be it painting cars or trimming houses. Either way, they love it enough to be good at it and as such make the living they need. Often these guys are so in love with what they do they require little. The shop or the job is their life. They don't long for Corvettes or Harleys.
3. Someone with a skill and a need to support themselves/family: These guys are proficient at what they do, but their labor is seldom more than a means of paying the bills. SOme are damn good at paying the bills but not really building any business. The business is them. I worked for a guy like this for a while. Nice house, BMW etc, etc.... But his tools were always broken or barely up to the job and no planning went into anything more than one day out. Work was completed by will and brute force.
4. The guy not smart (or too stubborn) enough to realize he would be better off working for a reputable company. They have a skill set. They use but they are neither in love with the work or the business. They enjoy the freedom of "Self Employment" and will muddle thru until old age forces them to get a job at Home Depot.
Everyone has to decide who they want to be I guess. But they need to be honest and clear with themselves.
As for the guy you mentioned? I've lost count of guys who lost ALL of it trying to be a "Builder". That includes our own family business when I was a young man.
Unfortunately, being a "Builder" is part art, part science and part black magic and voodoo.
I notice two common threads in this discussion:
1 - feeling unsuccessful because of insecurity about making the mortgage payment
2 - feeling unsuccessful resulting from being 'driven' to do more, have more, make more money.I have so far in my life had the great good fortune to not have much experience with point 1. I am thankful for my blessings and hope they continue. However I do have some limited personal experience with point 2, and I think that this constant drive for 'more' is a dead end and could even be characterized as a disease. I think its also quite common that one's 'needs' and lifestyle tend expand to fill whatever income is available, and more, without a correlation between satisfaction and income. However while higher levels of satisfaction may not correlate with higher income, greater feelings of insecurity often do.
Well put IMO.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Our children have been indoctrinated with this idea from birth......thus the "me" generation...............and the root cause of a lot of Americas problems right now.We're Americans...we're the best....no.1.......we're entitled to wasting a large percentage of the earth's limited resources....cause.....cause why? If having 'stuff' had anything at all to do with being 'happy'.....then why do most of this nations wealthy seem to be so damn miserable?
"we're entitled to wasting a large percentage of the earth's limited resources....cause.....cause why? If having 'stuff' had anything at all to do with being 'happy'.....then why do most of this nations wealthy seem to be so damn miserable?"
Define "waste". No one "needs" a Lexus, Ferrari, Hinkley yacht, 5000sf home, or any number of other things but the moment the government is the one deciding what we "need", we've lost something of far greater value- our personal and economic liberty and freedom. Is there wretched excess, waste and greed in the US? Without a doubt but if you want to see true misery, greed, and waste, just look at Haiti and Zimbabwe, for starters. We succeed not by playing Robin Hood and tearing successful people and businesses down but by lifting others up. Consider the "luxury" tax that went into effect in 1991. "Soak the rich, make 'em pay their fair share" ........ so they tried but it was the little guy that paid in the end. Thousands of folks that built/sold and serviced airplanes, boats and expensive automobiles lost their jobs. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,973305,00.html
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1993/09/06/78288/index.htm
Class warfare is a principle tool of Marxism/Communism; the only real equality Marxism/Communism has provided was/is an equal level of misery for it's citizens (unless you're in the ruling class) and I'm afraid that's where we're headed. Having 'stuff' has nothing much to do with being happy but finding that out belongs to each individual alone, not the government. A free and prosperous people can better solve the problems that face us.
There's something about Marxism that brings out warts; the only kind of growth this economic system encourages. P. J. O'Rourke
Edited 6/25/2008 1:15 pm ET by jc21
Edited 6/25/2008 2:48 pm ET by jc21
Define "waste"...............(quote)Waste is the automatic by-product of a wealthy affluent society.......The US is not necessarily the bad guys here......we're just the rich guys.Things will soon change and that bruised tomato will begin to taste pretty damn good again..........like it did for my grandparents.
This thread isn't encouraging. I was already thinking it was time to pack in my little experiment and find a job.
Biff,
No its not encouraging but for folks like me, its reality! My business failed and now I am looking for a job.
I would never call myself succesful in my career thus far but just wondered how others felt about theirs. My 'life" has been very successful...married a great gal, have awesome parents, built my own house....all those things have gone really well for me and I am greatful and proud of them all.
Just when it comes to earning money and having any kind of "status", "ranking" or "image" in the work world, I have gotten no where even though I have done a ton of little things that seem important.
Mike
Just when it comes to earning money and having any kind of "status", "ranking" or "image" in the work world, I have gotten no where even though I have done a ton of little things that seem important.
Mike,
This statement caught my eye, because while you may see someone with these things as successful, way more often than not, these things are a band-aid to a person who is hurting in other ways.
Couple local stories:
Concrete sub who had the boat, new truck, employees, and all the trappings, got desperate as things slowed down, and 6 months ago ran a bullet through his head. 3 years ago, I would have envied him. Now????
Electrictrician who built his company to 14 employees, had the world by the nuts at almost $200K per year personal compensation, married a golddigger who decided she could run his business better, PO'd all the employees with petty little rules and attitudes. All employees quit and the company folded, because he had everything financed. 4 years ago, I envied him. Now?????
Electrician who had to put up with people telling him how dumb he was for not expanding and hiring people. He is now 44 and has enough income from investments that he can work for fun. But he has never had a lavish lifestyle, or kids. OK, I still envy him LOL!!!
If you feel like you haven't succeeded, can you say you tried in every way you knew how? If you can answer yes, then you didn't fail, you simply found out what didn't work.
I would not say my "business" is a success. I am self-employed, and don't get too worked up about social standing.
Bowz
Bowz,
Good points, thanks.
I guess I am just wishing as I near 40 later this year, I would have "something" more to show for my 20 years in the biz. But I guess the knowledge and experience is worth something.
Mike
Mike,
This thread has provided more thinking, and staring out into space time for me, than any other of recent memory. So thanks, back at you.
You mentioned turning 40, so try out this quote: "There is nothing less important than the score at halftime." Can't recall where I heard it from, but at 40, I'd say you are just coming up on "halftime". Heck, I'm 43 and feel like I am in the locker room at halftime getting a better plan for offense, and shoring up the defense. Got a whole 'nuther half to play, and maybe some overtime too.
Bowz
Bowz,
"There is nothing less important than the score at halftime."
I LOVE that quote! I definitely have to remember it...Thanks!
Mike
I guess I am just wishing as I near 40 later this year, I would have "something" more to show for my 20 years in the biz. But I guess the knowledge and experience is worth something.
I'd say that it's a good time to contemplate where you are on your career path in relation to where you envisioned you'd be fifteen-twenty years ago.
I've always believed in avoiding ruts; falling into those made by others or making my own. What I've discovered is that it takes some effort to break loose and re-create myself by learning a new skill or trying something bold, but that the effort is always worth it.
When I take life by the horns and steer a new course for myself, fearlessly and resolutely, I become freer and happier every day and I experience life in a totally different way than when I just accept the status quo, much like everyone around me seems to.
In practical career terms, this means following up on an impluse or an interest in learning something new or looking for work in a different field, even if it means a drop in pay for a while.
Staying in a comfortable rut isn't any better than getting stuck in an abusive one. They're both deadly to the spirit.
So, going quietly within to respectfully greet and commune with the spirit should be a daily practice. Staying in tune with that most significant part of myself has the potential of renewing my life, moment by moment in untold and amazing ways.
I can't say that I've had a great career in the building trades, mostly because of choices I made or didn't make, but this work has provided me with a level of reality in my daily life that can't be found in most others fields.
That's something which is easy to overlook so it's good to recognize it's great value to keeping a level head and a happy heart.
Edited 7/28/2008 9:39 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Hudson,
Yeah, I see what you are saying. Thats why I am now going back to grad school and trying to "make something happen". I guess I just figured by now I would have some kind of lucrative job like many folks my age do and have a nice savings account and 401k and be able to buy things and all. Hasn't happened.
I know life is not measured by "things" but worrying about when your next paycheck is going to arrive sucks!
Mike
LOL ......only because I just cut the bruise off a tomato (storebought- mine aren't ready) for lunch. I'm afraid to admit it but I share some of your pessimism. My life has had it's ups and downs, some self inflicted, some not but through it all I've always been an optimist. For the first time in my soon to be fifty-five years I have some real doubts. Not sure exactly why; two presidential canidates that aren't worth a warm pile of dog poo don't help but there's more to it than that.
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
P. J. O'Rourke
See..I don't see myself as looking at this as a pessimist (though I may sound like it)It just the natural progression of things in my mind......more like the US just fits into natural progression of beginning/middle and ending like everything else.Don't mean it ain't gonna get scary out there but........I'm a Zen Taoist.......it is what it is......it will be what it will be......and yet all things remain the same......:)
Not just the youngins think we are entitled cause we're Americans.What an interesting discussion this has turned into.
Sorry I'm a little late on this, but ABE books sent me info on several books about where the US is and how we got there.This book really has my attention enough to spend the $15.The Post-American World by Fareed Zakaria.Basically says the world has changed and the US has been slow in recognizing it.Pete
Gotcha,
Fareed Zakaria is one of the reporters on CNN isn't he?
Mike
That's where I'd heard the name.The various topics outlined in the book are right on with what's happening to the US.
It is a little scary.PeteGiving up on being successful. Too hard.
I bought zakarias book and read it on vacation last week.impressed me enough that I came home and got his Previous book as well.
his over-all point is excellent-- but i wish he was a little more organized in his writing.
he is a very smart guy.
stephen
Jim--- you and robert have made some good points------ but if someone is contemplating entering the roofing business in the manner you have described----- I would suggest some other things as well a)don't do business with people you know--- because serious problems WILL arise with that type of operation.
b)Get a good lawyer--and get ready to use him
c)ALWAYS remember--- forming a roofing business with only subs as labor---is going to put you at the absolute mercy of the judgement of some pretty unreliable people-----
your production schedule is at the subs mercy----the quality of the subs product is a big risk---WHEN the sub works is a big riskI will give you an example-- i had an agreement with an elderly neighbor last summer---to replace her roof this spring---approx. May.One day in January this past winter--- I came home to find a crew of "Roofers" on the roof next door tearing it off!!!!!WTF! stephen wonders----and so I called the neighbor(THAT conversation is another thread)At any rate----THAT roofing project dragged on 5-6 weeks. Personally, I don't consider the roof done YET--as there is chimney flashing not replaced etc.---- but the main point is--that the roofers came without rhyme or reason----brilliant weather---no show---actual blizzard???? they showed up put up a pic and tore off roofing on overhangs and porches----one day it was snowing so hard i couldn't see the house from the street---- but I could HEAR them tearing off the roof another day--after an ice storm--they came with a torch down torch to melt ice off of shingles already laid--and so on and so on this is an extreme case--- but remember---- in this type of sub only operation-------- the real money is made by the "front"-- the contractor the subs are working unbelievably cheap--really just for wages. to survive they MUST work--and they WILL push the envelope when it comes to weatheryou--as the contractor ARE going to be sued----due to decisions made by the sub--and HIS decisions are made based on the fact that he needs grocery money(or crack) on friday.the margins blue described---are certainley ABSOLUTELY possible--- but it is also a pretty exploitive operation as it is TYPICALLY done. I am certain that grant can illustrate a more ethical exception to my generalization--- i can as well-----I am simply describing how it is typically done.NOW---- the container operation??????? THAT is something to think about-- i have thought about it myselfproblem is that 20 years ago was a smarter time to enter that business than right now( at least for me)20 years ago--- locally ,there were several big outfits offering the huge 40 yard containers---but only a few offering smaller 10-20 yard dumpsters typically used in roofing
now--locally i bet there are a couple dozen outfits with the smaller dumpsters--and it is pretty cut-throat. it is also harder and harder to find places to dump construction debris---and of course fuel is going to be a BIG factor--------plus expect to be involved in endless squabbles about cracked driveways and dammaged lawns.Best wishes, all----
Stephen
I am certain that grant can illustrate a more ethical exception to my generalization---
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. The storm chaser operations work like that. The company owners and the salesmen make the big bucks and the "subs" are barely putting food on the table. But they are typically no competition to guys like me or you. We serve specialty markets - they serve the markets where the customer expects something for nothing. That's a market that needs to be served, so let them have it. I'm more interested in doing interesting jobs than mass quantities of ranch house re-roofs.
In 20-25 years, I've only been threatened with a lawsuit once and that was due to negligence from a sub. Fortunately his insurance headed the problem off.
I use only subs, but we operate more as a co-operative. Everyone has pretty much figured out which gear in the transmission they are. They also can see there's room to move if they want to shift up to the next gear.
The best way I've found to keep good help is to make sure they're well compensated and to give them the amount of responsibility they're comfortable with. Some want more. Some are comfortable where they are.
We often work before the snow is off the roof, but not when it's snowing. If we're doing metal, we'll often tarp off before the snow starts and then pull the tarp and the snow with it when it quits. Also, we'll start a tear-off with snow on the roof. It comes off with the shingles.
Concerning dumpsters: around here the dump trailer is quickly replacing the dumpster. Less chance of tearing up the property and you can usually put them where you can hit them from the roof. Makes for less ground work.
We recently did a job with the most intense landscaping I've seen. Set up scaffolding at the roof edge and then ran pics to another tower by the street. Got a wheelbarrow up on it and never let a nail hit the ground. Wheeled the trash right out to the street and dumped the wheelbarrow off the top of the scaffold into the trailer.
http://grantlogan.net
"I could have had Miss September...... I couuld have had Miss May. I could have had Miss November, but I waited for December....." ZZ Top.
currently LOVING my dump trailer-it paid for itself in 3 months( bent the tailgate today though----darn-- i was hoping that thing would stay shiny and perfect for ever.
through my career I have gone back and forth between employees and subs--- currently employees-------- but i will be back to subs before to longI lose a lot of controll with subs--and make a lot less--- but have MUCH more freedombut--- it isn't as easy as some would think to find a qualified sub--WITH equipment, employees, Workers comp., Liability insurance AND willing to work for sub pay.
stephen
"AND willing to work for sub pay."
"sub pay" should be more than "employee pay."
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"AND willing to work for sub pay."
"sub pay" should be more than "employee pay."
From what i've read here, Stephen and Grant don't strike me as guys trying to screw over the subs by paying the rock bottom.
But in general, you just hit the nail on the head.
How many shops and contractors have you talked to that wanted you to do work for LESS than you would make as an employee somewhere?
Gettin worse round these parts too because as work slows, all those illegals crammed 20 to a 2 bedroom apartment gotta stay busy.
When I first started trying to work in P.A. instead of New Jersey there was a big trim contractor always bitching about not having good subs. SO when I sat down to talk price with him he wanted to pay $11.50 to hang and case a door and $2 to install hardware.
"From what i've read here, Stephen and Grant don't strike me as guys trying to screw over the subs by paying the rock bottom."
agreed.
just weird how that read ... that's why I cut/paste it.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
but--- it isn't as easy as some would think to find a qualified sub--WITH equipment, employees, Workers comp., Liability insurance AND willing to work for sub pay.<<<<<<<<.
I would like a wife that looks like Angilina Jolie, Cleans like Martha Steward, cooks like Betty Crocker, And follows me around like a Geisha girl but that aiant gonna happen anytime soon>G<
>>Cleans like Martha Steward<<Somethin' tells me ole' martha ain't doin' much of the cleanin' herself these days...
" I would like a wife that looks like Angilina Jolie, Cleans like Martha Steward, cooks like Betty Crocker, And follows me around like a Geisha girl but that aiant gonna happen anytime soon>G<"You'll never find her if you don't look. The same can be said about finding one of those roofing crews. Don looked. He kept looking till he found one. Then two. Then three. In fact, we used a guy named Mike for our roofing needs. Mike wasn't cheap but he wasn't expensive either. He was "normal". He had his system and his guys did exactly as they were told because Mike watched them like a hawk and didn't let them do much. Mike almost put every shingle on. The guys supported him in every way. Mike got a shot at working for Don...once. Don didn't use him again. Mike wanted to keep working for Don but his system didn't jive with Don's. So...that's a case of Don rejecting a guy that we were very happy to use and refer. We knew every roof that Mike laid was going to be a good one but something about Mike didn't measure up. So, if someone decides to find a quality sub crew that fits the mold in every way, it will happen. It will never happen if that someone doesn't look. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim--- you and robert have made some good points------ but if someone is contemplating entering the roofing business in the manner you have described----- I would suggest some other things as well
I spent about a year and a half of my life working for one of the largest roofing companies in our area. I was responsible or around 20 crews at any one time.
It was a "Nail em down and get paid" type of operation.
All I did was fix mistakes and finish unfinished jobs.
I learned more than a few lessons from that.
As you said, there are a bunch of guys working unbelievably cheap. But some of them are looking for something better. And by giving something better? You can build a SMALL list of reliable quality subs.
I used to sub for three different stair shops.
One paid ok and the jobs were always screwed up.......they had huge turnover. Maybe 20 rail installers and 10 of them turned over every month or less.
Two paid well and took care of the the subs but the work was sporadic and there were often small issues with the jobs. They got good solid work but it was always squeezed in and on a sporadic schedule.
The last one? They paid well. Not as well as shop number two but the jobs came in a steady flow, were well organized with few or no issues and were generally easy to complete because of that. They had subs knocking on the door every day. Noone wanted to screw up or screw the shop cause the could easily be replaced.
Because of that they got the very best guys.
It can't all be blamed on the Sub's. It's the contractor's job to make sure the job goes smoothly and is well organized. From my venture into subbing out work? I've learned that you can get a small group of reliable subs if you treat them right.
And if you're gonna run that kind of operation, you need to be able to count on those subs and in turn you need to take care of them.
No matter how good you are to them, you're still gonna need to weed out afew dirtbags till you find the ones you want.
Stephen, thanks for the warning and the advice to have a lawyer ready. I think that advice applies across the board and everyone working out there in the public should be ready. The guy who ran his roofing business also gave me this advice. Set the standards high and enforce them. To get his roofing business started, he went and took roofing certification training from the roofing suppliers that he was going to use. Whatever the highest certification they offered, he went for it and achieved it. He then wrote those standards into his subcontract agreement with his subcontracting roofers. So, with the roofers on board to roof EXACTLY as the roofing manufacturers required, he went out selling his services. He promised a high quality job, done precisely to the manufacturers specs, and then verified everything. He related this story to me to demonstrate how he got his subs to comply. Early on he had a little problem with one of the relationships with a sub that promised to do good work and who had signed the contract. Upon doing a routine inspection of an ongoing roofing installation he discovered some relatively minor problem. When it was brought to the subs attention, the sub offered to go back and lift a few rows of the shingles and reset them. Don refused that "fix". He made them tear off every shingle on the front of the house, which was done and relay them. He told them if they didn't tear off the entire front of the house and relay them perfectly, as required, he wouldn't pay them a cent for what they had already done. He also told them that if they ever laid another roof like that, he would never let them lay another roof. I think the problem was few keys were out of line somewhere near the bottom or in the middle. They tore off the entire roof and relaid the entire roof, even thought they coulda torn off a few rows and fixed it. Don said he never had another problem with that sub and they did a ton of business. He also said that he got a lot of business in that particular upscale neighborhood precisely because a lot of the neighbors asked what happened. They had saw the roof done with new shingles, then saw it torn off and the same color and style of shingles re laid. It was a curiosity and of course, everyone wanted to know. When they found out what Don did, he got a bunch of work from the neigbors because that was the type of work and craftmanship that they wanted....perfection. These were Gross Pointe type neighborhoods....old money. The point is: the entire operation succeeded because Don set high standards, inpsected every job and only paid when the details of the high standards were met. He said once the subs were on the same page, it went smooth. He also told me he had a lot of subs waiting to do work for him. His interview process was tough and if the sub didn't come in clean clothes with a clean truck and have all their teeth and hair combed, he tossed their info in the garbage. So, your warning was not wasted. It is good advice but I don't know that we are talking about the same type of business. The guys Don used made a lot of money. So did the sales guy and so did he. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
blue-------- I have been thinking about the roofing contractor you told us about i went back and re-read a couple posts to make sure I was remembering correctly and I thought about what i wanted to say--so it would come out right.Basicly--- i am not impressed with the guys business skills---or ethicslook at the facts-----the guys business failed with in a few years--------- statistically most do-----in short, he is average at best--and he has poor judgement. also---the thing about making the crew tear off an entire roof when replacing a few shingles would have solved the problem?????????
THAT tells me that the guy has HORRIBLE judgement--simply horrible.look at it this way-----sure it makes a good story when the contractor is interviewing potential subs and thumping his chest about how he wants things done right etc.------but look what he ACTUALLY did. He subjected the customer, the sub and the subs crew to completely un-needed risk---and very real risk at that.--we all know that EVERY time we tear off a roof there are a lot of risks prospective customers in the neighborhood might have thought the event was great---- but I bet if the situation was explained to them from a risk management standpoint--- they would feel different. contractor could have effectively made his point-WITHOUT needlessly subjecting his customer to additional risk. gottaa run---- i am involved in my own case study of risk management this A.M., LOL
stephen
Yes, his business failed when he took all his money and income and he specced 7 houses at 750k each and they didn't sell and the monthly note payment took everything from him including his roofing business income.And, the point of the discussion wasn't about ethics. It was just to say that a person can get into the roofing business and find all the qualified subs he needs to run a profitable business. Maybe not in MI right now...but in general, it's a good way to go. I personally don't find the little story unethical. I've made my carpenters rip stuff out hundreds of times. In fact, the guys that worked under me never took me seriously until I started making them rip it out and do it right. All the talk in the world was useless. If I was Mr Nice guy and let is slide this time, the next time it would be the same: wrong. When I finally got tough and just said :"rip it out and do it right. Idon't care if it will pass inspection. I don't care if you've done it that way before. I don't care...just rip it out and do it the way I want it.". There is no lesson learned better than toiling for a couple hours thinking about how they should have done it right the next time. You mentioned risk. I'm going to assume that there wasn't much risk because Don is a very, very smart guy. Whatever risk was there had to be minimal. No worse or better than when they started the job and tore off the roof the first time. I suppose if the day looked like rain, he would have told them to tarp the defective shingles off and wait till tomorrow to rip it out.One last point about the risk. Yes, that one homeowner was subjected to the risk of reopening his roof for the hard lesson. But....maybe he was a sacrificial lamb who saved thousands of others from the risk of roofs that were inadequately installed. I am not opposed at all to Don's methods and if I ever decide to start up a roofing division here, I'll be using all of his suggestions that I gleaned from him and maybe even his "rip it off" routine. He only had to do that once and the word spread far and wide. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I've made my carpenters rip stuff out hundreds of times. In fact, the guys that worked under me never took me seriously until I started making them rip it out and do it right. All the talk in the world was useless. If I was Mr Nice guy and let is slide this time, the next time it would be the same: wrong. When I finally got tough and just said :"rip it out and do it right. Idon't care if it will pass inspection. I don't care if you've done it that way before. I don't care...just rip it out and do it the way I want it.".
Amen Jim. They really don't think you're serious until they spend the next hour standing on a ladder with a sawzall and chips flying down the back of their t-shirt. It's not punishment, (in fact it's actually costing me money!) but it does get the point across quickly.
I recall one time last winter, my guys nailed off the roof plywood along a gable end without stringing the rake. It had a big bow from where the wall jacks were anchored when we stood it. I knew it was late when they were finishing up the roof so I took a quick look the next morning and the bow was still there... all nailed off. I told the two guys who were sheeting to 'make sure that gets fixed'. The week wore on and it didn't get fixed. The rafters underneath were strapped as the roof was to be finished and knee walls were built inside up to the rafters and walls were put up perpendicular and butting the gable end. On the last day of the job it was terribly cold, windy, and sleeting. As the guys were packing up the truck and trailer I was doing my final walk-through and saw the rake still not fixed. I sat in the warm truck as they had to pull tools and ladders back out of the trailer to fix it. It was rainy, windy, cold, sleet, snow.... the nastiest of the nasty weather..... and they had to cut all the inside framing apart, get out on the cold wet roof and string the gable, nail it off right, and then go back in and repair the interior framing and clean up.
I haven't had to ask them to string a rake since.
A line I use with them when necessary is, " I don't get to bid on just the easy parts of the frame. This is the job.... if you don't like the job then go home, but don't expect to come back".View Image
Sometimes, being stupid and pigheaded and stubborn is the right choice. It's a necessary evil when the guys we are working with have bowling balls for brains LOL.I understand Stephen's point of view perfectly though. I think it's really important to know that Don had a very thorough agreement about exactly how every phase of the roof was going to be done. The guys signing on to the subcontract actually signed a written agreement that they wouldn't be paid a dime if they didn't do it to the manufacturer's and Don's specs and wouldn't fix it when a problem was discovered. Frankly, I think it's good business practice and if more builders and general contractors did it, we'd have far less shenanigans going on. My boss didn't tolerate any of those bowed rakes either. I learned a very easy system to straighten them and taught every carpenter that worked for me how to do them. Maybe 1 out of 10 would use my system which was foolproof, fast and easy. After I showed them once, I never bothered again but I wouldn't tolerate the poor results no matter how they did it. I had many a carpenter pulling nails and staples up there and cussing me out. I don't care though. It aint straight: fix it! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Don't know if this is the right thread or not... but I'd be interested in that rake straightening technique if you don't mind.View Image
It's always the right thread. First, you have to understand that our overhangs are complete, even on the rakes. Also, remember that I don't use a cut man. We lay our plywood up there and cut it all in place. With that background....lay the first row. Let the piece of plywood hang over at least a couple of inches. Only put one nail in anything attached to the rake. Leave the head out and bend it over (no trip hazards allowed on the roof)Run the second row but don't run anything out past the rake. It's better to stagger back from the first truss that IS NOT ATTACHED TO THE RAKE. Run the third row and hang it over the rake again. Again, no nailing but only tack and bend. At this point, you are 12' up and you can probably straighten most rakes.....if you can get a string to the peak. Since we always had our overhangs on, it normally was a simple matter to walk up the blocking and put a nail in the peak for the string line. If your rake is much longer, you probably have to continue with the staggering system. When the peak is within reach, hook the chalkline, and snap your cut line by lining it up at the bottom. The real benefit of this is when the rake needs tweaking. You can get down inside the gable every four feet and move the gable in or out and then tack it. Sometimes, we'd have to get a guy down in and pushing with his feet. Other times, we'd have to nail a pull brace down to the deck. It's very easy to lean through the four foot holes and nail the brace, pull it in with a kicker, nail the gable so it won't move, then release the pull brace. This system is different than installing all the plywood hanging over, then trimming it all at once. The time savings is huge when a problem gable occurs. On normal gables, it's no big deal but you don't really know till you're up there at the peak and look back. Remember, all our rakes and soffits were finished so our gables weren't just floppy sticks of lumber. If the rake soffit started out with a 1x8 with a slight crown, it would still be in there till we nailed it. After the line is snapped and the gable pulled to the line in two spots, the entire thing was usually perfect all the way. Then, we'd just grab a sheet and flop it over and cut it in place. Most of us knew a technique to roll the drop up onto the roof. Usually, one sheet would fill two holes perfectly ...so the final charge up the gable was easy after it was straightened. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I like it Jim. Leaving a few holes open to be able to really 'work the rake' is the key to that system. Don't see why it wouldn't work just fine with a cut man too. He could help with the straightening as well.
With your 'one man band' sheathing system... did you build a cutting platform on your roof or did you leave the machine parked with the bunk of ply on it to cut off of? View Image
We did both. We typically would all run the roof. Each guy would take a side or corner. We'd use the machine and run it up near one hip and two guys could pull from it. All of us worked with saws, staplers and usually a nailgun too. We did all the overframing by cutting up on the roof too. If there was a serious amount of framing, I'd build a working set of of sawhorse up there and stage the raw stock on them. The guys on the other side of the roof would build a rack and we'd stock them with the crane if the machine was tied up. Most of the time, the manchine would feed them. Then, as we changed our systems because of the machine, the machine started getting tied up with a guy (me) in the box doing the exterior cornice tieins. I'd try to stay ahead of the crew so they could always start a section with all the overhangs completed. Our basic roof rack was very, very basic and simple. If I was working on a 12/12 I'd cut a stud in half for my vertical studs. I'd then cut a stud in half for my skids. That was it. I'd just nail the vertical into a truss and jamb a kicker up under it. I'd nail the skid on the flat and call for the plywood. Without more support, I'd limit the load to about 20 sheets max. If I had a machine at the stage you have one, I'd still have my back and I'd probably be looking for massive frames....the 200k ones. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Oh I'm looking for the 200K frames. They just don't seem to be looking for me. :)
I'm getting there though... the job we start Tuesday is 89.5K..... slowly but surely... getting there. This guy did a 17K sqft house two years ago.... so I think I'm at least driving in the right neighborhood.
Just curious.... you don't find cutting and scrambling around with sheets on a 12 pitch to be awkward? Also, am I missing something, or don't you need to sheet part of the roof before you can build your cut station up there?
I envy you having a boom truck or crane... whichever it was. I could really use one sometimes but the cost scares me off. Maybe after the forklift is paid for (February). I'll need another big write-off anyway.View Image
Congrats on retiring that debt. I'll keep my fingers crossed till Feb for you.The "cut station" wasn't really a cut station for plywood. We rarely measured our plywood cuts. Thats just a wasted step. We'd lay a full sheet down and if it needed cutting for some reason, then we'd cut it in place. Most of the time, all the cuts were done by eye. I'd use the lines on the OSB as my sightlines. The first row on a 12/12 is very easy. Our overhangs were done so I had the subfascia and fasci and the soffit to safeguard me. I always stuck a spike straight up at each rafter. This spike was poking out from the fascia. It did two things. It saved the plywood from hanging down further than the edge of the fascia and it marked the trusses for nailing. I'd lay a sheet of OSB and I would stand in the trusses and lean over a and nail my two stud into an "L" shaped kicker. This gave me a 3.5" place to store my stuff. Its actually harder to walk on this type of kicker but they are great catchers for anything sliding down...including me. I can honestly say that a kicker never saved me. I like to work smart and safe up there...The L kicker would be nailed into the middle of the first row of plywood. After it was nailed, I'd jump out of the trusses and hold onto the top of the ply and nail it all down. I'd put a lot of fasteners into the lowest edge into the fascia and subfascia. After this base row was done and the L kicker installed, I'd put the second row up. I often built the plywood rack on the L Kicker. The ply rack would be half way up into the second row. Remember though....the rack wasn't there for cutting. It was just a storage device. It would hold plywood, kickers and the clips and staples. I'd store my extra nailgun there and hide my saw under there till I needed it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
When I was talking about cutting I was thinking valleys more than straight cuts. Did/do you eyeball those as well? If so, then I need a much better set of eyeballs!View Image
Yes, it's very easy to eyeball valleys. Most (99%) of our valleys were layons. So, the only valley cuts on the ply would be where the reverse gable is laying onto the main roof. If it was a small one, I'd start out by scribing the lowest piece using a very basic scribing method. It's hard to describe with words but very easy to do. Basically, I was a three point scriber. I'd mark three points on most sribes and ply cuts: the starting point, ending point and a midpoint. In most cases, I would line up the cuts by eye with this method. If it was a large reverse gable that would result in more than four rows of ply going into the valley, I'd precut the valleys and start from there. It's a bit unorthodox for framers but it is significantly faster.Precutting means: I'd calculate and mark the valley cut on the main stack of plywood. I'd mark the line down the center of the plywood. I'd then cut through as many pieces as I needed which was usually two sheets or three sheets deep. Each sheet gave me two valley starters the same size. When you lay these valley starters, they stagger themselves perfectly. It gives you a great place to walk up the roof because you are transversing the roof now and don't need kickers even with all the sawdust. And...the bonus is: I don't have any more valley cuts to make. So, recapping: on smally valleys, I have a very easy system of scribing without chalklines. On large valleys, I precut all the valley cuts, usually in one swipe of the saw. From there, all the cuts are eyeball cuts that are square. There is one other way that I eyeballed valley cuts. If you flip your sheet of plywood upside down, and put the 96" side parallel with the valley (I would put a spike in the valley and let the sheet slide down to it), and let it all extend over the ridge.....the ridge gives you a perfect sight angle to cut on. I have eyeballed many a cut like that. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Have not looked at this thread for over a week, can add that I feel successful when someone whose building and professional skills I respect makes a comment like this:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=106978.15
blue--- it's a matter of perspective AND proportiondo you--tear down and re-frame the entire side of a house----because 3 studs are bowed?????? of course not---you replace the 3 bowed studsthe story you were describing--was the roofing eqivalent of replacing 3 bowed studs you mentioned Gross Pointe---which I assume is an older established, affluent neighborhood????? mature landscaping????--windows, doors, siding, trim??????weather is one risk----damage to windows,doors,siding, landscaping,people etc.---are some of the OTHER risks on every tear-off---yes--the exact same risks were in place the first time the crew tore off the roof------but the were necissary risks the first time---they were needless and pointless the second time-----your guy was NOT smartand if his customers were better informed they would agree that he was not smart.
stephen
"it's a matter of perspective AND proportion"Yes, I agree it's a matter of perspective and proportion. You can feed a man forever by teaching him how to fish. I understand that you don't agree with such radical measures but you have to also agree that the strict standards and written contract didn't make a big enough impression in that hardheaded roofer. You also have to understand that the roofer ALLOWED VISIBLE DEFECTIVE ROOFING to be installed on a roof. HOW MANY CUSTOMERS DID THAT DETER? And I will not agree that the Gross Pointers would agree with you. I believe that if you told this story to 100 of them and pointed out the risks that you are discussing, 90% or better would just agree that the roofer should have done things the right way in the first place. Radical solutions aren't employed every day and they shouldn't be but sometimes you just gotta take a chance. Obviously you will never do anything this radical and that's okay. You are a very thoughtful man who calculates everything. I wouldn't suspect you of reacting emotionally too often in a situation like this but sometimes emotions are the key to creating long term stability. I once tossed everything out of a job box in less than one minute to prove to the guys that they could roll out and be working in less than five minutes. It was an emotional display and the next morning, you should have seen the guys hustling and getting busy. Yes, they were pounding nails and cutting things in less than five minutes. Previous to my emotional display, the rolling out process was stretching to 15 minutes. The veterans always warned the newbies not to drag in in the morning and dilly dally around the Jobox LOL! I'll bet you didn't know that saws and nailguns and hoses and boxes of nails could fly!
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Frank got caught on one mistake that was laughable to me. When Frank was a rookie, he and his boys would forget to lap the plate a minimum of 4'. Every time I'd see it, I'd warn them: you better hope that passes code. Don't do it again.One day it didn't pass code. The three of them were upstairs sawzalling for three hours each to slip in plates to lap four feet. They wanted to grumble and challenge the validity of the inspector's request. I just laughed and told them to do them right LOL! It looked like a very hard thing to do. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Mike,
I did ROTC and had a Naval career all planned out. I spent a lot of time at sea away from my wife and baby girl and that made me feel like shid.
I attempted self employment for nearly 3 years and gave up. I was home nearly every day (shop in garage) and saw my girls grow up daily. We spent a lot of time together, but I never made enough to pay myself more than $25K per year. It drove my marriage to the brink and made me feel like shid...
Now I'm back in aerospace with a six figure salary again. I work 60+ hours a week. I see the kids 2-3 hours at night. My marriage is on the brink and I often feel like shid about it all...
Where's the balance? I don't know because I obviously haven't found it but I do know I've been on both sides of the extreme and neither has made me feel successful..
.
"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
BK,
I appreciate your insight and experience. I'm sorry to hear you are still at where you started but no one can say you haven't put forth the effort to make it better.
Good luck!
Mike
Same to you, thanks..
.
"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
Ya know,
The happiest i've ever been,
I ran a framing crew full of great guys. I made maybe $45K a year tops. My wife made maybe $35K. Had a townhouse with a $600 a month mortgage and a $300 a month truck payment.
I was home every weekend. We cooked on the grill 4 nights a week from April to October. We ate on the deck. We talked, we laughed and generally enjoyed life. We had weekends off and enjoyed them.
Now we make at least twice that. We have a much larger, nicer house in a desireable neighborhood. We have the required Family truckster for such a neighborhood (yeah, and if I heard correctly soon to be replaced by a VW Toureg or Porsche Cayenne. Don't ask.).
And? We're a day away from divorce and can't remember being happy.
Wish I had some good advice, but I don't
Oh,oh, oh......I do. The world is full of late 20's early 30's hotties that have been treated like dirt by guys. Be nce to them and they'll ask you out.
My buddy ordered a wife from Viet Nam. She's a babe, full of life and appreciates everything about him. She grew up in a home with a dirt floor so appreciates everything he has done for her. Never complains to him about anything...and doesn't spend his money faster than he can earn it which is a frickin unimaginable concept to my wife.
He treats her like a goddess because he appreciates her appreciating him. He doesn't have to compete with her girlfriends. He doesn't have to hear her say what a horrible day she had because she didn't get her afternoon nap. The phone isn't glued to her ear.
No "boo-hoo my back/foot/head/toe/nose/whatever hurts" every night when he gets home.
They've been married 6 years now and he has no complaints.
Here's a joke a Japanese friend told me:
Heaven is: Having a British job, Living in an American house, eating Chinese food and having a Japanese wife.
Hell is: Having a Chinese job, Living in a Japanese home, eating British food and having an American wife!
Something like that....
.
"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
Heaven is: Having a British job, Living in an American house, eating Chinese food and having a Japanese wife.
Hell is: Having a Chinese job, Living in a Japanese home, eating British food and having an American wife!
LOL... that's pretty good.View Image
yes LOL that was pretty good.
My wife is a JAP;]
i am sorry for you, i have heard the jokes and it must be rough.
like what does a JAP make for dinner? reservations
how do you get a JAP to stop having sex? marry her
etc etc. good luck with that.
It is true i carry a heavy burden as a "goyish carpenter"/
ah a quick wit. in my opinion the highest form of intelligence. my compliments sir, that made me smile.
nice....
.
"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
Do I feel successful? No sir.
Am I happy? Absolutely!
I have a great family, I love my wife and my 6 mo. old baby girl is the coolest thing to ever happen to me.
But success has not been earned yet. I went to work for myself 5 yrs ago after a failed partnership. More or less just bounced around to the highest bidder which allowed me the freedom to book my own jobs whenever they came up, few and far between earlly on.
But successful I am not, in my mind. I might be more monetarily concious than some here but when I have no money I hate life. I feel like a failure to myself, my wife and the family that tried so hard to raise me right.
I am by no means driven by money, I love what I do and I live it 24/7. I just know that to be able to be comfortable and have a more leisurely lifestyle will take alot more than I am providing.
I dont ever want to be known as RICH!
I want to be known as SUCCESSFUL!
That is something money wont build.
I was first a carpenter and wanted to build high end custom homes.
Then i went into roofing and made more money but for a long time felt i should be a builder and felt uneasy, After all roofing is looked down on by some.
But after a few good years i relized i would never make out as good as roofing and as i made money and bought rentals i forgot my dream. I still remodeled my own homes as my crews were making me money.
Untill 10 or 15 years ago i never felt successful till people kept telling me i was, I still did not believe it till even the people that did not like me admitted it.
My inlaws kept telling me i was a bum but i put the Wife trew college to be smart and the daughter is getting smart at college, Built a house for one son helped the other one buy his..
lookin back i was successfull alright but in the middle of it all i would have said no,
Kinda like a baseball player , if your hitting .333 your missing .666, . Cant get discouraged if you strike out twice,
How many times i had no work, Had 10 bids out and none came in, Then waited 3 months and got 10 good jobs in one week.
Its been a while since I came back to this thread after posting it. I like the "Halftime" analogy and the other information given by everyone.
I still won't say I feel successful but I guess I have started to "worry less" about feeling successful. Not sure if that makes any sense but before I seemed to worry about the status alot and now I seem to be just "going with it". I am still "concerned" about the future and feeling successful but not "worrying" about it as much.