It’s been awhile since I framed with somebody new, but the last few times strangers have seen me run a bead of PL on the dec before standing a wall, they have looked at me like a space alien.
I learned to do it because it is the most sure-fire way to seal a bottom plate, and it can’t hurt to have the wall glued down, anyways.
Do you do this? And if not, and you are trying to build tight houses, why not?
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Replies
I never have glued the bottom plate down.....nor have I ever seen anyone do it.
I wouldn't look at you like you were crazy for doing it however.
I doubt it adds much to the "tightness" of the house though.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Bet on it. That joint leaks a lot (relatively) in my houses when I'm done foaming them. I caulk them. Take 200 linear ft times 1/32 of an inch on only 1" along every foot of wall. Thats equal to a 6 sq in hole over the entire building!Stu
An insulation company I used years ago offered caulking along the plates, corner studs, etc. as an option, don't think I ever used it. Don't see a problem with the PL, I can see the benefits, but to me it's a question of how far do you go?
Just make sure you're on the correct chalk line, though ;-)
I do it when building on aslab but can't think of any good reason to do it for walls up from a deck
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RCT makes a gasket for that application on outside walls:
http://www.conservationtechnology.com
As for gluing down the sole plates of interior walls, I've never done it. Sounds like a good idea for shear walls, and a sure fire way to earn the curses of any remodeler who has to blow a door thru one of them in the future. Especially if he doesn't have the belt sander with him. ;-)
-- J.S.
Every wall. Squeek insurance down the road...and yes a PITA for the re-modler...wouldn't want to be him/her.
Rip
Ha, I learned to do it working with remodelers. I guess the sealing comes into play when you are blowing closed cell foam everywhere...we tried to do something with every potential air gap, and bottom plates are a known culprit.
There was an article in FHB several years ago (10-20) about Air Tight Drywall installation. Before they hung any board they used the old standard construction adhesive and caulk to seal all corners and plates. They also sealed all plumbing and electrical penetrations in the framing.
I use to run a bead of adhesive beneath plates when finishing basements, then just bang in a few cut or concrete nails to hold them in place untill the glue set.
I also regularly trim back sill sealer and us a urethane caulk on the outside and sometimes insides of mud sills on foundation walls. My efforts are to seal up anywhere that air or water might enter.
Structurally I don't think glueing a bottom plate would add much. The studs are going to pull out as quick or quicker than a nailed down plate.
Still, nothing wrong with glueing them.
Dave
>> I learned to do it because it is the most sure-fire way to seal a bottom plate, and it can't hurt to have the wall glued down, anyways. <<
If that's the case, why not glue between the two top plates and seal in between them, or between the double window sills, or between the bottom of the box and top plates, or between the king studs and jack studs, or the outside corners?
It all depends on how far you want to go with gluing and sealing a house?
There's no need to glue the bottom plate for strength or anything else. If you want to seal, then caulk later.
OK, why not?
If I'm building or remodeling my own home, why not spend a few dollars to build as strong a structure as I can?
About 20 years ago, after a tenant burned us out of our first house, a 3 family on a lot-and-a-half, we lived in a modular tri-plex for about a year. I found the construction remarkable, 2X12 floor framing with construction adhesive on sub-floor. The only poor workmanship was on local contractor finishing - everything from electrical to plumbing to drywall joints. The modular part was top-notch. I can understand that on low-cost, production houses, every drop of glue counts. If I'm building my own house, or a custom house for that matter, doesn't the use of modern adhesives provide the same extra bit of quality that tight finish carpentry does?
Bob
>> If I'm building or remodeling my own home, why not spend a few dollars to build as strong a structure as I can? <<Bob,Who said glue will make your house any stronger?You can glue every single piece of lumber on your house if that makes you feel better. It doesn't matter to me. Will your house last any longer than a house that isn't glued? I doubt it.>> I can understand that on low-cost, production houses, every drop of glue counts.<<It has nothing to do with every drop of glue counting. It's just no necessary.>> If I'm building my own house, or a custom house for that matter, doesn't the use of modern adhesives provide the same extra bit of quality that tight finish carpentry does? <<No. What makes you think that if you glue a house down that it's finish carpentry quality. You’re getting carried away here, now.Are you saying that the thousands and thousands of houses being built ranging from 200k to 20 million that are not glued are lacking quality because they're not glued?Tell me what you want to glue?I glue all sub-floors and microlams that get nailed together. What else on a frame should get glued that you think would make the frame a quality job?Joe Carola
Well, actually, the sub-floor is what impressed me most about the modular house that we lived in. The kids could absolutely run wild in that house without rattling the dishes. I'll have to defer to your experience about the rest.
Bob
Joe, you glue microlams together? I've never seen that. Seems like a good idea though.
Mike Maines
>> Joe, you glue microlams together? I've never seen that. Seems like a good idea though. <<When I first started using them I didn't. I would nail every 3-4" across the bottom and tops and they would hold. Couple times I saw the bottoms of a microlam start to open and then the next time I glued them together and never see a gap that you can fit a piece of paper in now.I think that gluing a microlam is worth it.Joe Carola
I'd be more apt to use sill seal than const adhesive. IMO you need something to bridge the gaps as the subfloor often isn't exactly flat, nor are the bottom plates exactly straight. Only prob is that if you use the sill seal on the exterior walls, you need to use it on the interior walls too, as I have found that it actually increases the height of the wall about 3/16" or so which causes other minor problems. The stuff is cheap though and I'd guess ~$40 for a 2000 sq ft house.
Either way, sealing is good, and as a matter of fact, I believe that one of the main air leakage points is right at the bottom plate/floor intersection as if evident when carpet is removed in older homes and these exterior edges are dirty due to air movement right at this very juncture.
As far as gluing bottom plates to make the house stronger, yea well maybe, but I guess you need to screw your framing together too - and BTW - pass the crack pipe ;-)
It seems to me that the subfloor to plate potential leakage is limited by the fact that the wall sheathing laps this joint. It might make more sense to glue the bottom foot or so of the shealthing to the rim joist and prevent air from traveling up into the stud bay period. Thus accomplishing two seals at one time.
Just a thought.
I glue them on 2x6 walls, the glue makes the walls move easier after they are raised. A sledge hammer would work too, but with glue the walls slides fairly easy.
In ACQ situations I will glue and nail a second "white" plate to the ACQ and nail studs into the second plate. That ACQ is some nasty garbage.
Yes! Maybe that was the real reason...
I've never seen it done, but I sure wish our framing crew had. The bottom plate lumber has dried out and warped and you can see daylight peeking through under the drywall in a few spots (no trim yet). I suppose a bit of sill gasket would have solved my problem, but I like the adhesive strength of PL better.
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
We build tight houses, but simply caulk the plate after installation. Actually, all the houses in town now have to have the plates caulked to meet the minimum energy code.
The main problem with gluing plates down is the wall is much more likely to slip around at best and fall off the deck or on someone at best. Unless straps are nailed down to keep it in line, or it's a very small wall I don't like to be involved with it after having a close call with a couple of good carpenters.
An interesting version of this is caulking the bottom plate with construction adhesive to keep upstairs water leaks from flowing downhill. A carp from New York said they do that on everything since neighbors are as likely to be below you as above and it's cheaper if water damage can be localized as much as possible.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I second that. I can't pass an insulation inspection on a new house or addition without caulking the bottom plate to the sub floor and culking the joints between the studs in the corners of outside walls. the first time I encountered this I told the inspector that the plates had been glued down and he didn't seem impressed. he made me caulk them anyway. I often wonder what he would say if the design called for the use of drywall clips in the inside corners instead of solid blocking. there would be nothing to caulk.
Hi, I always glue all my interior walls down. I hope it helps with squeeks. My theory when nailing off a interior walls you can't always nail into solid wood or the joists. When you just nail thru the plywood subfloor you have deflection and I believe that is where a lot of squeeks come from. The nail moving thru the plwood rubbing back and forth.
So do you toenail the studs to the bottom plate too?
glueing plates down is a waste of money unless the stud/plate connection is as secure, which it is not with end nailing. Better to put blocking under your walls but that is another subject. I simply don't believe that good 3/4" subfloor, glued and nailed or screwed wiull allow enough movement to cause a squeak where you are trying to prevent it.
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What you want to look at here is, what's the weakest connection in the system? If it's just a 2x4 and drywall wall, you're right that studs pulling away from plates in tension is probably the weak point.
If it's sheathed with Struct #1 and lotsa nails as a shear wall, sole plate to sub floor may be the weak point. But in that case, you get a lot more improvement with steel tension rods that go vertically thru the whole shebang, and moot the glue.
Strengthening something that's not the weakest point won't hurt, but neither will it help unless the structure gets loaded in some very unexpected way. Like maybe it gets hit by a truck instead of an earthquake.
For structures where it really matters, it's the engineer's job to figure out how to make everything strong enough without wasting money.
That being said, I did glue my double top plates together. I glue built-up headers and sistered joists together. I glue the Struct #1 onto the shear walls. Mostly it's a matter of area. If there's a lot of surface area, you can get some strength from glue.
-- J.S.
It's a waste of glue and time, and as has been mentioned it will give remodelers fits later. (Or you, if you goof and don't get the wall plumb before the glue dries.)
For exterior walls, I use a strip of Sill Seal. For interior walls I nail the plate directly on top of the subfloor. If it's a basement slab, I use Ramsets. The point of the exercise is to keep the bottom of the wall from moving sideways, not to prevent uplift (the weight of the house will do that quite well, thank you).
As for sealing under the plates, it's only needed on exterior walls, and the Sill Seal does that fine. There is no issue with air leaks from one heated space to another unless you're building a clean room for computer chip manufacturing....Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
> ... not to prevent uplift (the weight of the house will do that ...
True in most places. But here in earthquake country, vertical motion is an issue.
-- J.S.
True enough; but in that case you'd need to glue the studs to the plates too or use structural sheathing (not gyprock) on at least one side.Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
No solid blocking under interior partition walls? Another sign or quality building.
>> No solid blocking under interior partition walls? Another sign or quality building. <<I've never once put blocking under walls before or have ever seen it done before.I always nail on joist under the wall on each side of the wall. For a 2x4 wall I'll give 4" in-between the joists.If there's a wall above with a load on it, the plans will speck a beam directly under that wall.Joe Carola
What do you do on an engineered joist or floor truss when walls run parallel?
Dave
I can't speak for Joe, but I nail from underneath the sheathing into the bottom plate.
Just nail your bottom plate down as usual with 16's, then go downstairs and find the tips of the 16's, shoot 8's back up through the plate. Solid as the day is long.
>> What do you do on an engineered joist or floor truss when walls run parallel? <<The same thing as I do as I described with 2x's.Joe Carola
Framer, joist are blocking in that they are support. I beleive the poster was stating that there was no hard wood below the wall as he said "I nail to the plywood".
I lived in a house an remodeled a bathroom. I was setting tile and checked the floor and the floor dropped about 1/4 inch in 6 or 8 inches over to a wall. I checked it out and found that that wall was sitting on only the subfloor, joist on 16 inche centers, and the wall flat out in the middle between two joists.
Like you, a joist should have been under that wall. Or I think you could for nonload bearing walls you can use solid blocks between teh joists. I would lay in extra joists.
So what you are saying is that the weight of the wall on the plywood that didn't have blocking or a joist under it caused the plywood to bow down 1/4 inch? This was a non load bearing wall right? That seems to be quite a bit. By code are you required to have blocking or joists under non load bearing walls?Interesting thread. Thanks for the discussion!
Exactly!
And then when I went to jack the wall up form below to add some blocking I found a 6 or 8 inch round heat duct running in the joist bay! Pain in the neck mess.
If it's not hurting anyone apply construction adhesive, mayo, bag balm, lipstick or whatever you like to the belly of the bottom plate.
However, if an employee on our crew were to want to, we'd say no, that it's not cost effective since the plate has to be caulked from inside anyway. It's spending time on things that don't really make a difference, which takes time away from those much more important.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
If I don't glue my plates down, they stay in the apple when I take a bite.
How about two joists with a 1 1/2" gap between them, centered under the wall? (Stick some short scraps in the gap to maintain the distance) That way you can drill thru the middle of the sole plate to run plumbing and electrical, and not eff up the joists. You can shoot nails a little diagonally outward to connect the plate thru the sub floor to the joists.
-- J.S.
>> Framer, joist are blocking in that they are support. I beleive the poster was stating that there was no hard wood below the wall as he said "I nail to the plywood". <<My answer to you was because I thought you were talking about joists that run parallel to the wall above, aren't you?I thought that you meant that if a wall lands between two joists, you put blocks in between. I don't do that, I put a joist on each side of the wall underneath.Joe Carola
So in the case of a 2x4 wall you'd sister two joists and have them directly above the wall? Why do you prefer to do that over blocking? I look at the joist layout in my basement and it seems like some of it is value engineered in that joists will switch direction in some places so that the smaller joists cuts could be used instead of thrown out. I think this makes sense to save material and money.
>> So in the case of a 2x4 wall you'd sister two joists and have them directly above the wall? <<No, I'm talking about joists running parallel to a wall above and putting one on each side of the wall underneath the wall on the first floor and second floor.Joe Carola
Thanks for the picture helps explain it!Why is it better to place the joists on either side of the wall as opposed to sistering them together and supporting directly?Would you apply this same technique in a remodel situation where crossbridging already existed between the joist bay under the wall or in that case would you go with blocking? Thank you for the posts I am still quite new to how framing is supposed to work so I appreciate your patience and responses!
Why is it better to place the joists on either side of the wall as opposed to sistering them together and supporting directly?
Think about it. Look at the section again. Imagine wiring, plumbing lines, HVAC, other mechanicals. Getting them up into the wall is easy when you spread the supports.
Got it, thanks! I was stucking thinking inside the structural box.
>> Why is it better to place the joists on either side of the wall as opposed to sistering them together and supporting directly? <<To allow for any plumbing or hvac ducts that need to go into a bay.If the wall above is carrying a heavy load above, then the plans will speck a beam directly under that wall like a 3-1/2 x 9-1/2 or a 5-1/2 x 9-1/2" microlam, or whatever the height joists your using. Then no plumbing or hvac goes in that wall.>> Would you apply this same technique in a remodel situation where crossbridging already existed between the joist bay under the wall or in that case would you go with blocking? <<It's always easier to put the joists in with new framing. On a remodel if the wall lands in between the joists and there were no joists on either side of the wall like I do I put blocking in between after I raise the wall up and level it.It depends also if the wall above has a heavy load on it and wasn't framed right from the begining. A beam might have to go underneath to support the wall because it's sagging to much.I've installed beams before above the floor and not underneath walls. I've jacked the walls up straight and leave the shoe/sole plate in and cut the studs at the bottom and come up whatever the height of the beam is and slide the beam in and nail the studs on top.The beam will be full bearing on the foundation on one end and full bearing on a girder on the other end and then solid blocking underneath both ends.There are a lot of challenges in remodeling and you have to be creative when working on them because you have a lot of limitations and things can get very costly, so you have to figure which way is best and the least destructive.Putting beams in from underneath when there's everything in the way like plumbing, electrical, hvac can be very expensive to cut out and move.I've cut out siding before and sheathing and slid the beams in from outside the house because of this. Then just go back and replace some siding is cheaper.I put in a beam once on a second floor and that beam had to be supported down to the foundation. The second floor we just took out the sheetrock and filled in with studs the. The first floor however had wall paper that was ancient and could not be touched, so I cut out the siding and sheathing and worked from outside.Joe Carola
Great post. Thank you for all the details quite interesting!
Any time. Hope it made sense to you. I can ramble on alot of times.Joe Carola
That was how I was taught to layout and frame many years ago.
I ask about floor trusses because I have a set of prints that don't show additional trusses under or beside parallel walls above them. I was thinking it is going to be a PITA to add support bocking between the trusses.
Maybe just order extra trusses to land under the walls?
Dave
>> I have a set of prints that don't show additional trusses under or beside parallel walls above them. <<They must have forgotten do do it. I would order more trusses and put them in anyway.Joe Carola
Edited 11/3/2006 7:12 am ET by Framer
Thanks, Joe
Any time.Joe Carola
Never heard of that either... If the wall is perpendicular to the joists, the bottom plate is nailed into the joists. If the wall is parallel to the joists, an extra joist is placed under where the wall is to go, and again, the wall bottom plate is nailed to the joist.
Blocking is just a great opportunity for squeaks, although it is necessary under load bearing walls that are perpendicular to the joists.
Both ways work.
We do solid blocing instead of bridging anyways, so an extra few blocks is nothing in extra work to speak of. Never had a sqeak from it that I have heard of.
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I don't do it but if gluing makes you feel better then do it, it certainly can't hurt anything,
For years I have been using Henry's on the bottom plates on a slab on grade to help keep out bugs, etc.
no.. generally there is no need...
sheathing covers the seam..
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On jobs that pay us to do upscale work, we glue all walls and partitioins down.
I would glue my own down because we've found that it reduces service calls for squeaks. It also assists us when setting our walls with the crane (we panelize our walls) because it makes it easy to adjust their final resting position.
The homeowners love us and brag when they see us doing this.
I think its good practice for jobs that demand it.
blue
Our Skytrak is sold. Frank sold it for 47k cash.
When I built my shop, we put anchor bolts in the slab. Then when the walls went up the treated bottom plates were glued down. To ensure a good seal and anchor.