Recently finished the brick veneer on my remodel. The masons left a real mess behind (i.e. banding, plastic, broken pallets, chunks of mortar and broken brick, lots of misc. garbage, etc.). They did a fairly decent job otherwise, so I counted my blessings and didn’t make an issue out of it.
Just wondering how you guys feel about the inevitable clean-up that every project requires. Whose responsibility should it be?
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Replies
In my opinion, true pride in workmanship includes restoring a clients property to before project condition or better.
So what happens to his reputation when your buddy asks you to recommend a mason and you tell him; "I got this really great guy but.........."
[email protected]
I once built up a very successful alarm business based on clean up (and trouble-free alarms). The referrals were fantastic. They paid a ridiculous fee for us to vacuum, and were ignorantly blissful.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
How would this question differ if the contractor was a drain cleaning company, who had left gobs and wads on the basement floor?
Support our Troops. Bring them home. Now. And pray that at least some of the buildings in the green zone have flat roofs, with a stairway.
I'm in new construction so it's a little different...
But anyway, I require all my subcontractors to clean up after themselves, which consists of putting trash in the trash bin and neatly stacking any excess material. A few even take their trash with them. OTOH, all the bricklayers I have used put their masonry trash in a pile for someone else to deal with. I think this is partially because often masonry trash has to be handled differently than the regular trash: wood, metal, cardboard. They usually do put their paper and plastic/metal bands in the regular trash container though. Sometimes, I put all the masonry trash in with the regular construction debris though, depending on the quantity. Either way, I have a great debris removal guy, and they will take almost anything as well as clean up my site and sweep the houses twice per house, which I have them do just before drywall and just before finish floors.
If the masons left stuff strewn all over the place, I'd call them back to pick up before paying them.
mwgaines,
I've learned over the years that most subs will do a basic clean up in the rough in stages and a better clean up in the final stages. But you have to provide a place for them to clean up to.
I feel as the GC that I'm responsible for putting the customers property back to the condition it was in before we started.
I include this in the cost of every project.Dumpsters, barrels, trash bags,shop vac,whatever it takes,I provide.
It's costly and time consuming but has to be done and paid for.
Vince Carbone
We do a lot of Copper roof and gutter, so natch, our scrap is worth picking up..I'll garunteeeeee, If I don't gather it up and return to Grant for recycleing or re-use...someone else will take it away.
I am bad about cig butts, I have yet to train myself that EVERY job needs to be treated as a Church. I am the worst for leaving butts around..and my co-worker is just as bad.
I'll field strip and pocket on some places, but ....I am a pig on others.
Our Cardboard gutter /downspout boxes ( 25' long) mostly ride home with me, if the contractor has no take away box. I've found that if I wad it up a little at a time in a really big azz trash can full of water, and dunk the weedwhacker head in and give it a spin for a while, it reverts to pulp..scoop it out with a 5 gal bucket and water the plants/garden..it turns to hydro-mulch.
Back on topic..if the contactor is not gonna have a waste system in place, we haul it off. Homeowners, we never expect them to have one, and allow time for clean up every day.
Our end of day method is ...Tools, materials, scrap/trash, walk around again and look for tools, materials, and trash. I have never had a customer complain, ever.
Parolee # 40835
"I am bad about cig butts, I have yet to train myself that EVERY job needs to be treated as a Church. I am the worst for leaving butts around..and my co-worker is just as bad."
Put an Altiods tin in your bags.
Great Question that a lot more people should read, but on this site your talking to in my opinion "the best of the best", so you may get a lot of the same answers.
I make all my Subs and work crews clean up after themselves and to my amazement even some of my best subs get a little bent when tell them they need to clean up, but once I get them in the habit it's never an issue again.
I've been complimented many times by clients, neighbors and even Subs about how clean the job is. Every tiny scrap of paper, banding, string, anything is cleaned up and thrown into my job trailer and swept up at the end of each day.
There's less to do if you do it daily, and it's a safer place to work in. People walk through your jobs in the evening and weekends and they notice the trash before the job if it isn't clean.
Howie
I do almost T&M almost all the time. We try to keep things very shipshape. I usually ask the customer (if they are hands-on type) if they want to do part of the clean-up to save some $.
We pick up the bulk and tools but if they want to sweep they can have at it. Most decline but appreciate offer. Dear Wife works with me and she does most of that at the rate I bill her out so it is not too much expense for client. She polices up as we go when there is time.
We get many compliments also. It is also a safety issue as well as pride.
You have to have the provisions in the contract. I work in the commercial area most of the time and they will back-charge if you don't clean up your mess, this can cost you major bucks, but without something in writing, you are screwed.
The next time you use this sub, while they're making their mess, carefully hide their check under the pile.
The problem should thake care of itself.
Why not just tell your subs BEFORE they price your jobs that they are to figure for cleanup and you provide a dumpster?
When I frame and give a labor price I will clean sweep and rake all debris and load the dumpsters provided by the GC.
Joe Carola
Edited 5/28/2007 2:31 pm ET by Framer
90396.13 in reply to 90396.1
Why not just tell your subs BEFORE they price your jobs that they are to figure for cleanup and you provide a dumpster?
Because they dont want to pay for it .
You are right on. Someone has to pay for it or the owner has to expect to do it .
The bricklayers here lay brick and leave a mess around the house , the sand pile , the places they mixed, etc. They will deposit paper bags in a dumpster.
Now lets look at this problem at real worth.
The sub pays his two bricklayers 20.00 an hour and a really good mud tender 12.00. He nets around 40.00 for himself. Thats a minimum of 72.00 per hr with out expenses or profit . Really its more to the tune of 145.00 per hr that they were generating on the walls. They would probably do it for 300 to 600 bucks .
Or you could let the professional landscaper do it before he levels the yard . He could scrape the site of all debri with a front end loader on a tractor for 100.00 and load it into a dumpster. That would also catch the trimmings from the driveway, slab and footing. Oh yea the cut out curb.
Tim
>> Someone has to pay for it or the owner has to expect to do it .Tim,Why would the Homeowner have to clean up afetr the GC?I never heard of a GC/Builder who wasn't responsible for cleanup inside and outside. Now, whether it's up to the GC to cleanup with his crew or the GC's subs have to clean up there own debris, it makes no difference.As far as I know, the GC has to clean all debris inside or out whether I'm the GC or someone else is. Any time I GC'd a job, I was responcible for all dumpsters and cleaning up for all debris. Sometimes a homeowner will supply the dumpster and I will load it.The only way I can see that a HO is responsible is if it's stated in the contract that the GC/ Builder is not responsible for clean up.Joe Carola
Edited 5/28/2007 3:30 pm ET by Framer
Fair question but the answer is still the same .
The homeowner wants to know how cheap it can be done and sometimes what they can do to help defray the costs.
As a GC I think its up to that person to advise them.
Everything that happens on a job the owner should pay for ,after all its their dream.
So thats really what I said . Either they should be prepared to pay for it or do it themselves which happens here quite often.
I think that in the contract it should have every thing covered in an estimate whether its T&M or set bidding. When they review the estimate they will notice different things and ask questions about it. {sorry Im gonna have to share this ] I prepared a painting estimate for a homeowner . Included a box of rags for what ever the cost was at the time . She said , ""youre kidding right "? "or do you really think Im going to pay you for a box of rags?" I said well these are absorbent rags . She still wasnt going for it and offered to supply her job of absorbant rags . I said okydokey.
On the other hand I see your point in that a job should never have any problems for the owner to worry about . No matter whether a brick layer is working for a GC or hes acting as the GC bricking a homeowners house the matter should be resolved and never have a chance at becomming a problem. So the matter should be pre discussed as you mentioned. Not after a problem comes up.
They will assume they get a clean up whether you talked about it or not . If you didnt mention it for some reason they dont feel they owe for it . Its hard to chrge for it then, but the fact remains they should in fact pay for it whether they know it or not . Its their dream.
What I get edgy about is people expecting it done for free . The people that get it and the people who dont get two different prices.
Tim
Tim,If the GC is including cleanup and dumpsters, than naturally the HO is paying for it in the cost of the job, and I'm talking a fixed price job.If the HO asks the GC to give him a fixed price without including dumpsters and cleaning up all debris, then that will naturally be deducted from the cost of the job.If you tell a HO that you will deduct 3k from the cost of the job for cleanup and dumpsters and tell them that you will pile up all debris in a specified area of the job and the HO will supply the dumpster and load it himself. That could be one price.Or you can just leave whatever mess is there daily and charge $2500.00 and the HO will clean daily and load the dumpster so that the jobsite is not a mess.If the HO decides to pay for the cleanup in your fixed price, then it's up to the GC to clean that jobsite up inside and outside no matter if the GC cleans it with his crew or he has all his suns clean up after themselves. The GC has to work all that out with his subs from the start. Thew HO should not have to pick up one piece of wood. It's not the HO's problem, it's the GC's problem.If I'm a GC and I'm including cleanup and my subs leave the inside of the house a mess and I get a call from the HO saying that there's garbage and dust all over the whole house, that's my responsibility and I'm 100% wrong for not checking and my sub who was supposed to clean up after himself was wrong, but the Ho doesn't care or want to here that.I do a lot of remodeling and interior framing and I have to make sure that me and my crew clean that house nicer than it was before we started that morning. It has to look like we weren't even there that day other than seeing what work was done.Joe Carola
You wrote on while I was writing one .
Ya , thats what I mean. Someone has to be handling the job.
I had an incident that I got hot over the other night . The electrician helper called me and asked me to turn the power off at my house . It was like 8 pm.
He had left a hot circuit dangling in the attic . Really he didnt know the condition at all but it had shocked another helper . The licesnsed guy had been gone the whole day. You know , the one I hired. I thought it was un professional as H^ll to call me about it . I should have never known there was a problem, but mainly he should have resolved it before he locked up.
Tim
Edited 5/28/2007 5:18 pm by Mooney
Edited 5/28/2007 5:18 pm by Mooney
"Everything that happens on a job the owner should pay for ,after all its their dream.So thats really what I said . Either they should be prepared to pay for it or do it themselves which happens here quite often.I think that in the contract it should have every thing covered in an estimate whether its T&M or set bidding. When they review the estimate they will notice different things and ask questions about it. {sorry Im gonna have to share this ] I prepared a painting estimate for a homeowner . Included a box of rags for what ever the cost was at the time . She said , ""youre kidding right "? "or do you really think Im going to pay you for a box of rags?" I said well these are absorbent rags . She still wasnt going for it and offered to supply her job of absorbant rags . I said okydokey."First off, why on earth are you itemizing everything in your estimates? Of course homeowners are going to nitpic about cleanup costs if you put in there. They will nitpic everything that is involved with doing your work. Give them a quote, explain what you do and what to expect, talk about price and be done with it. My days of going over my quotes with people piece by piece are done.As for a T&M contract, I would have in the (and have had) contract the stipulation that clean up is part of the project. That's it, its just one of those non-negotiables like gasoline for the trucks. What do we do, walk to the jobsite to save a buck too? Take the bus? Its the cost of doing business and it goes in, one way or another. Whether you tell the customer about it, depends, in my mind of how much you trust that customer and what kind of contract/bid/quote you are writing up.A clean jobsite is a safe jobsite and having homeowners picking up dunnage, fooling around with the dumpster or anything else on the jobsite is a liability potentiality in mind. No thanks.
Because Im a bean counter . I came in under all bidders and did the job I wanted to do.
Im not suggesting a change in your style . Remember you brought it up. Just remember you asked.
Do you have the figgure you spent last year for clean up? Yes or no and what is it ?
Do you have the figgure you spent on non production?
What about the total of man hours you paid out that was not billable ?
What about accounts receiveable ? Off the top of your head?
If a person doesnt know their costs then their profits will be a quess. I choose what jobs I want to do and they pay more money than the ones I dont . Thats why I choose them. Im only in it for a substantial paycheck. Im a little different than most here . I only do it for the money. Im not a service whore. Ive talked about that before and it depends on how you like your bread buttered. Some people here bend over backwards for their customers and dont get paid for every thing they do. I wont do it . I had the cheapest price for quality going in . Thats all Im doing and by the way Im not bashful about asking for my money.
I agree that someone should clean up a job but the owner should pay for it unless they choose to do it . Of course I dont want them doing it . I dont want to see them much less have them on the job . But if price is what their after and they pay their bills then their butt will be humping in the evening .
Now somtimes its not practical for a sub to do it unless they are equipped like the brick layers. They dont have a front end loader on the job. If you want them to hump bricks and mortor then IM sure they want what they get per hour on the wall. Im not paying it so Ill clean it up. Im tellin ya , clean up isnt free no matter how you look at it unless youre giving it away as a gift. Ill get a cheaper price from them and Ill clean up.
Tim
I will humor you."Because Im a bean counter . I came in under all bidders and did the job I wanted to do."I respect that, if you can make a buck and make a living by underbidding, then knock yourself out. As far as I'm concerned, my calling card is what I leave behind and customers looking for the lowest bidder probably won't choose me, I don't sweat it, there's enough work around for those who work at getting it.Im not suggesting a change in your style . Remember you brought it up. Just remember you asked.
Not defensive here, but I was responding to your initial inquiry. I wouldn't change my style at least on this issue.
Do you have the figgure you spent last year for clean up? Yes or no and what is it ?
Yes, its about a half hour per job. Sometimes it can come to an hour, but very rarely. If done as one works, it amounts to less. When one has to figure something in, they usually find a way to make it work.
Do you have the figgure you spent on non production?
There is a lot more to running a business than working in the field there are a lot of 'soft' costs that may not be immediately billable production or earmarkable, usually as a round number until its large enough to start tracking closer.
What about the total of man hours you paid out that was not billable ?
same thing I would think. Man hours=production. How many other costs do you figure go into running a business that aren't billable 'man hours'?
What about accounts receiveable ? Off the top of your head?
I don't run accounts receiveable of any significance, work is paid when completed and/or in phase of completion. Very rarely are there outstanding invoices and if there are, either I've got a good client I trust or a problem to deal with. I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with cleanup costs, possibly you could elaborate on that and save me from my ignorance.
If a person doesnt know their costs then their profits will be a quess. I choose what jobs I want to do and they pay more money than the ones I dont.
I usually go after all available work, very rarely do I deny working for anyone, I've never had anyone dicker with me solely on price without me changing their mind about that.
Thats why I choose them. Im only in it for a substantial paycheck.
You got some skills, you are the low bidder, but you get the high paychecks. And I assume you do this because you don't clean up a jobsite?
Im a little different than most here . I only do it for the money. Im not a service whore. Ive talked about that before and it depends on how you like your bread buttered. Some people here bend over backwards for their customers and dont get paid for every thing they do. I wont do it . I had the cheapest price for quality going in . Thats all Im doing and by the way Im not bashful about asking for my money.
I don't entirely understand your business philosophy, but that's ok, you do it your way, I'll do it mine and we're all happy. If your customers think highly of you in the end, then that's all that matters, unless of course you don't need references.
I agree that someone should clean up a job but the owner should pay for it unless they choose to do it . Of course I dont want them doing it . I dont want to see them much less have them on the job . But if price is what their after and they pay their bills then their butt will be humping in the evening .
I stand by my assertion. I think its bad for business to have customers on the jobsite and I think they are problematic for organizational reasons as well as for liability reasons. Of course we all have to deal with what we have to, but I usually lay out in my contracts that they are not to be on the jobsite during work periods unless escorted by one of us. Never had a problem with that rule yet.
Now somtimes its not practical for a sub to do it unless they are equipped like the brick layers. They dont have a front end loader on the job. If you want them to hump bricks and mortor then IM sure they want what they get per hour on the wall. Im not paying it so Ill clean it up.
I agree and sometimes it occurs that you have to strike a balance between reality and the ideal. Hey this is the real world, where nothing is black and white. Masons are a good example, if not a bit extreme and even then, the ones I've hired have been good about cleaning up because they know going in that it is expected of them, so they're less likely to dump a pile of sand larger than what they expect to use --- or expect to leave their rubble or dump their spare mortar in the customer's flower bed.
Im tellin ya , clean up isnt free no matter how you look at it unless youre giving it away as a gift. Ill get a cheaper price from them and Ill clean up.
Absolutely, nothing is free, not the time you spend doing up estimates, the time you spend meeting customers, going to the lumber yard, making up your advertising, hiring people, whatever, nothing is free and you have to find a way to figure it in or you will be working for free.
I don't entirely understand your business philosophy, but that's ok, you do it your way, I'll do it mine and we're all happy. If your customers think highly of you in the end, then that's all that matters, unless of course you don't need references.
Im not picking at ya . I responded. Ill explain that though. I own my jobs . I cant do any thing complete I can think of in 30 minutes on a job so when you say 30 minutes on the complete job you leave me confused. Honest injun. I spend more per half day than that cleaning up. So I dont understand . I spend over an hour every day if Im lucky.
The other costs non billable are unneeded trips from and to the job. I could make a list but that bites my butt. Didja ever fergit ? Well it happens to me all the time . Today I was ripping drywall knowing fully well it was repeatable cuts. I ripped three before it hit me in the face . I lost three minutes . There gone and there not comming back. Not being proficient at being a minute manager is costly non production.
I got into a rush and picked up three turbine vents at my local lumber yard . Im reviewing my bills and they charged me 32.00 a piece . I walk into Lowes and see them close out for 19.99. Same thing. I could have called Suzie on my cell phone and got a price in less than a minute. That 36.00 is gone and its not comming back. You can say thats no big deal and I guess its not a deal breaker but if it goes on every day its a loser.
Im still making part of my living on work I did 15 yrs ago. I look for jobs that pay 3 to 1 on total cost of the job. . I never said I didnt make money. Just because Im making money doesnt mean I want to give it away. Same thing as cheapest bid . Its an ideal not a reality.
To the subject matter it takes around an hour for three men to scrap out a normal house after hanging and sweep. Thats 60.00 per day at 245 days equals 14,700. I know exactly what it costs to clean. Thats a full time laboror here.
Tim
"o the subject matter it takes around an hour for three men to scrap out a normal house after hanging and sweep. Thats 60.00 per day at 245 days equals 14,700. I know exactly what it costs to clean. Thats a full time laboror here.'Yup and it goes with the job. That's it. Someone pays somewhere down the line, frankly, I'd rather it be me or the subs and I can put that cost off onto my customer and control every aspect of the job as much as I can while I'm at it.As for unexpected costs, well yeah, that's why you pump your margin and watch your habits. And the next guy underbids you because he'll take a risk where you won't. And on it goes.And the kid down the street has a truck that daddy gave him, lives at home goes to college in the fall and works for pocket change.Or the fireman who works on his off days, getting work because he's a fireman and people like fireman and he has a new shiny truck and a big credit line at to boast ofI do this work to live Mooney, not as recreation. If I don't get paid and paid well and often, I don't pay rent or eat. Simple as that.
The way to bid low and make more money is to work on bottom line . Then upsell. Turn more work.
You assume the guy down the street and the fireman can compete . They rarely do. Normally they arent equipped and they dont have sufficient knowledge to roll on a job and make it happen. If you have the knowledge to make it happen quickly and are tooled up, you can make money off time .
Working for everyone and doing anything puts you in jepardy unless thats your expertise. I dont know what you do but Id bid what I do that makes the greatest amount of money since you dont do it for recreation. I do what people dont want to do or feel they cant . Theres lots of different ways to make money or save it .
I think the discussion of clean up is a mess in this thread. I was never talking about sweeping up. A remodeling job where people live is a strict critter . Anytime we work around a family living in a residence its another line of work. Of course the job is bid for all clean up. If they are contracting their own house to build and are contacting their own subs the rules just changed. The amount of mess just got a lot bigger or more expesive. Most of the time people in that situation have xxx amount of dolllars to spend and thats it . They cant go over the loan value. Well, they arent getting enough money to have every thing they want becusae they arent being loaned 100 percent . They are working on somthing like 80 percent and want 100 percent of the job funded from the loan proceeds. It sucks but it happens all the time so they try to be their own contractor. If their smart it doesnt take long to figgure they are gonna be short or they are not going to have what they wanted.
A GC is still another animal. If you are not it you are working for them. They live off the top of a job since they rarely are responsible for carrying the working load. They must make their living off labor they hire and materials they buy marking up. Its all a mark up game to them unless they are paying for the materials and labor off a bid. Then it becomes a tightwad game . The only money they make is off the top still. They call it management and may recieve that fee as well but its not the same term as marking up or cutting costs. Unless its cost plus they are interrested in costs.
Thats why some GCs have their own labor for clean up and have equipment for it becuase they can do it cheaper . Some GCs will try to rest the burden on subs with out paying them.
As a sub you have your choice of who you want to work for and how you want to do it . Ill up charge a homeowner building a home for heavy clean up or offer it to them. On a remodel there is no choice . If I do work for someone that expects me to do heavy clean up , my price will reflect it . If I know a GC is providing clean up then he gets the cheapest price and I will cater to them. Id rather do my work and not be bothered . Thinking back about 15 to 20 years ago in that time period I averaged 36.00 per hr running a Bazooka and automatic tools finishing drywall . 24.00 per hour hanging . 25 to 30 painting average depending on what I was painting really. Only around 18 hanging paper is the best I could do. I hired painters and hangers and kept a Bazooka in my hands . Labor then was around 5.00 per hour and I didnt have any of them. I was paying journeymen 10 to 12 dollars. I could not afford to do clean up and put down the tools and I sure couldnt hire my men and come out. I chose to work for commercial contractors that had a labor crew. They paid more money for some reason and still do. I undercut large outfits not small ones . I turned a lot more sq ft and lessened my down time . I even quit hanging commercial paper and I enjoyed it . The strange thing I found in commerical was the difference in what they expected and wanted . Its always about time not money. Lots of work in a short amount of time paying decent money. They really push to get the jobs done . Its more important to them to get a job done quick than it is to have quality. They want it to pass but they arent nick picking drywall with a flood light . Most of the drywall was prepared for paper or texture . Hardly any slick work like residential.
By working volume and long hours , higher pay , doing less for it since the work wasnt slick, doing no clean up , I tripled my my yearly income working on speed alone . It wasnt a nice life living in motel rooms and later in a camper , being 300 miles from home after I made payroll on Friday , so not it wasnt as nice a life.
People like Gunner still do it every week and have for years. Im a betting man so I would bet he makes more than local electricians.
I have another business now but I still look for 3 to 1 on the money. I do my own clean up because Im tooled for it and I can do it cheaper because of it .
Tim
Doncha think thats why subs work for GCs cheaper than they do HOs?
>> Doncha think thats why subs work for GCs cheaper than they do HOs? <<Are you saying that subs work for GC's cheaper than HO's because some subs don't have to clean up for the GC's?Joe Carola
I think its a variety of things that GCs understand what subs need and they know how to run a job smoothly where a HO doesnt have a clue . I also think thats what a GC gets paid for doing that is often hidden to a HO.
I dont have a problem with clean up . I have a problem with it not getting billed if its done . If its set in the bid before hand then Im cool. I wrote a lenghty post adressing this subject before and I was disagreed with by several. I was a sub and also have been a GC. Most of my carreer was a sub. Ive worked for contractors that did not expect clean up of excess materials and those who did . The price was different between the two. I like to have a clean job and usually took care of all personal mess so Im not talking about lunch wrappers from fast food and drinks . I hung and finished drywall along with painting . The question of who scraps the house often came up. Somtimes I was only hired to finish drywall and I walked into a mess that needed a dumpster and labor to get it there . It wasnt in my bid to do it . Same thing painting . I walk in to find mud on the floor and drywall dust everywhere from sanding . I dont want a scaper ran after I get started and I can handle the dust . I need it vacumned. What do I do? Its the job that was shceduled and I dont have another one to pull from my behind unless I leave the job till it comes up again on scheduleing. Someone is going to be unhappy either way. They arent happy about paying me to do it .
Same thing really for framing / drywall. If dead wood is left out for example and tubs arent shimmed , do I do it and make a day of it so I can start my job and make everyone ivolved happy? If I do they will get a bill or I leave and start the next job? Either way theres no happy campers .
A GC should take care of all that where a HO wouldnt know to or feel it was important until shid hit the fan and a sub walks out that was scheduled or presents an extra bill.
Tim
I was going to say, "Clean up? What's that? Oh, so you're one of those fussy dudes..."
I (you) am (are) the contractor. Ultimately it is my (your) responsibility. How you deal with that is best stated in the beginning.
I make sure everything is kosher at days / jobs end. However, that is usually the mess I generate and the final cleanup. During the job I provide a place for debris or make arrangements with the subs to cleanup their mess and dispose.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Do you include clean-up in your quotes?
absooooooooolutely!
yup...
all part of the scope..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I do include cleanup
but there are parts of the country where GCs provide the onsoite cleanup and the subs are only expectedto provide the skilled work.
You are acting as GC.
So if you picked subs that are more used to working new construction, it is very likely that they assumed you as GC would be taking care of cleanup.
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where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
If you let the subs know ahead of time that they will be expected to clean up every bit of their trash expect to pay more on the bid. It's human nature to not like to detail clean so they will make it worth their while, or it makes you sound like a wacko clean freak and they know to stay clear of those problem clients.
They can clean up, but it's usually cheaper if you (client or GC) cleans up. Having said that, I hate cleaning up after others and my passive agressive side has put more than one sub or carpenter on the do not call list.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
As a craftsman that should be just a automatic response. not an add on to a price. Part of my rep. is a clean job site. If your a sub and think you are just to good to clean up, and you leave me a mess, then you don't work for me again.
Maybe a hard pill to swallow, but if we try to soak every drop out of a client, then were is the pride and craftsmanship? What does it take to cleanup as you go and not wait untill your waste deep and tripping over tools and trash!
Not on my job site! Call me old fashioned, but also call me real busy because of that rep.
Nailer
I wish you guys would come and work for us, because....
We have an army of labourors (well 7 ) who do nothing else but clean-up after the subs. The subs are supposed to clean-up after themselves and we supply,
40yd. dumpster
3 smaller bins
tons of garbage cans
5gal. pails painted red (butts)
And still, everyday, reminding the workers where everything is and what its for. And still, everyday, have to go in behind them and clean-up. We have provided a good system, and the workers just take advantage of it. I'm constantly shocked at the dissregard some of these workers show. It has been a battle since day 1 to keep this site clean and safe. When I was on the tools, I loved working for a G.C. who took care of the site. Today, they seem to expect us to do it all. And, yes, clean-up is in thier scope, and yes, they have been warned many times, as I said, they know we will clean if they don't.
very frustrating
Karp,Then how come your not DEDUCTING money from every one of your subs for what it cost you for your guys to clean up????You can't blame anyone but yourself for letting them SH!T all over you.Joe Carola
We have deducted a small amount ( not part of my responsibilities ) and it has gotten worse with a few of the subs. Its a large site and hard to keep track of who made what mess.
I posted this mainly to illustrate what the best of intensions can sometimes lead to. We have had issues with our saftey program as well. Inforcement is an ongoing concern. Workers are still reminded to wear hardhats and safety shoes almost on a daily basis. I guess my real rant is that I'm not a fan of the yelling and screaming method of motivation, but it seems the only way to get through to some people.
I guess my real rant is that I'm not a fan of the yelling and screaming method of motivation, but it seems the only way to get through to some people.I was the Supe's foreman on a large (200,000 sqft)job. I had a three man crew, just to fill the cracks in the contracts. The framers had over 100 men. They were the worst about cleanup and all they had to do was make a pile antwhere outside the building.The framers left at noon on Fridays, and I would do external site clean up then. All the paper and personal trash that blows all over and can't be traced to any particular crew.The first week, we back charged them $600. Didn't work. The next week, I buried the framing foreman's plan table in framing scrap and B/C'ed them $800.The next week, my cleanup took 12 man hours less time(|:>)SamT
Praise the Corporation, for the Corporations' highest concern is the well being of the public.
I LIKE your methods! We could work togeether.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm glad to hear someone's had some success, I'm still trying.
>> I guess my real rant is that I'm not a fan of the yelling and screaming method of motivation, but it seems the only way to get through to some people. <<Obviously that's not working for you either. What do you have a bunch of Apes as subs?Joe Carola
Actually, some of the guys do fall into the "ape" catagory
For the most part, they just don't seem to care enough, they clean-up, sort of. We always seem to have to follow behind to check.
back charge...that is one serious motivator....once or twice of that and they will clean up after themselves...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
We have
The problem is to get the clean-up done when I need it, not when they get around to it. So I keep cleaning, they keep getting charged ( not enough ).
To me, its something I should not have to deal with as much as i do. I'm here to build, not clean.
With the system we have in place, there should be no issues. Although, we do have a pretty clean site.
During the construction of my home, I had several different subs on site (I was the GC). I told them NOT to clean up, that I wasn't paying them their standard rate to push a broom, I had kids to do that. What I didn't tell them is that I was afraid they'd throw away stuff I wanted to keep. For the construction of a 4300-sf home, I have hauled six, 42 gallon bags of trash to the transfer station. Everything else was used, saved, recycled, or used as fuel. Even drywall scraps went through the wood chipper to be tilled into the topsoil. All metals were recycled. Foam SIP panel scraps were advertised on craigslist and went 20 miles down the road to someone who used them to insulate his barn. Any leftovers went back to the supplier or have been saved for a shed or barn.
And no smoking on site - so no butts. Couldn't do much for the chewers, though.
Excellent work re-cycleing! You'd die if you saw what gets thrown out around here. I had started a pile of off-cuts and salvageable material, only to see most of it tossed out because it was in the way. Sometimes ya just can't win. Still trying though.
I always clean up at jobsites - I don't care what anyone tells me. Doesn't matter how nice your work is - If you leave a mess, they're 10 times as likely to remember that. I even do it on volunteer jobs. If you leave a mess, they won't remember that you came out and volunteered your time - They'll just remember that you left a mess. I've tried to drill that into Carl's head when he's been helping me too. He's probably tired of hearing about it.(-:
Never go to bed mad — stay up and fight.
As long as you do it for them, you are encouraging them to keep on leaving a mess fo ryou to handle
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, I know.
That's where I'm at now, problem is I can't have an unsafe work site, as well as risk damage to finished product because some idiot dropped a screw on the floor.
The site is much better than it was, but it has been a struggle to get it to this point. This topic is a bit of a sore point with me because I expected so much more co-operation from our subs.
And, yes, clean-up is in thier scope, and yes, they have been warned many times, as I said, they know we will clean if they don't.
And they know you won't back bill them for the cleanup. Make them responsible and it will change.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I agree 100%!!!
I sweep up! My guys sweep up!
And my subs better sweep up!
Howie
We guarantee a 'broom clean' site everyday at the end of the day and we live by that rule. It makes our work look better, keeps down on potential accidents and keeps up the courtesy factor.
I also made up the subcontractor contracts to stipulate that we require the same of each at the end of the day. I really resent being their cleanup service and have had to remind some of them sometimes. I have a clause in my contract to enable back charges on real problem slobs, but by the same token, I'd never use someone like that again anyway.
"Do you include clean-up in your quotes?"
I'd be dead if I didn't.