Does anyone have a group they associate with that is strictly other building folks? Not BNI or anything but only other construction people.
I tried to start a group in my area a while ago to meet for coffee or lunch but too many guys were against it thinking they would be losing work to each other as opposed to sharing it.
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Replies
No idea if it's still in existence, but many years ago in Denver we started a woodworkers' group. Original spark was James Krenov, in town for book-signing (The Impractical Cabinetmaker). He asked if we knew each other, nope, other than rummaging the same lumber bins. Then he pointed out that we could all benefit from the experience.
First meeting was the half dozen of us who'd met at the lumberyard sponsoring Krenov. Strangers, competing on occasion. I'm not a joiner, got dragged in by a friend.
Worked out amazingly well over the years. Seminars, speakers, group purchasing, exhibitions (which brought out a FineWoodworking rep). And best, meeting like-minded folks to turn to for advice. Not unlike here.
That fear you encountered existed there too of course.
Competition continued, but for me it all got simpler. When asked for a bid I could simply ask who else was bidding. We all knew each other, more or less the pricing, and if the list included somebody wrong it was clear. Then I'd suddenly get far too busy to wait for, no point in bidding. Particularly useful when the interior designer wasn't anybody I knew.
When we left Denver the group had gotten too large to be very manageable. Mostly non-professionals by then. Originally meeting periodically at one shop or another, the last time in my shop, 65 showed up. Yikes! Didn't do that again.
Moving here, visiting shops to say hello I was greeted with suspicion. Probably too small a community. Or maybe just small-minded.
I'm sailing in a few weeks with a friend I got from that Denver group, now lives in Ohio, keeps a lovely boat on Erie.
"I am a perfect ahole" Sphere 4/13/08
Tom,
Interesting. Thanks! That would have been pretty exciting to have Krenov too! Thats very cool!
Mike
We got name-brand guys to town. Once had dinner with Taje Frid. Small pot luck at my mentor's, who knew Frid from teaching together. Bob was in a league of his own there, but a steady member of the group.
I occasionally sub-contracted parts of commissions to group members. Made things easier for all of us. Call around, see who could use some work. Or an employee. Volume tool buying worked really well. "I am a perfect ahole" Sphere 4/13/08
Oak River Mike,
I've been doing that for 17 years. I network with my contractors today. Even though a lot are out of work and most have scaled back dramatically. (I'm one of those out of work)
Your suppliers should be doing that with you.. sharing tips and techniques.. information and sources.. Just because you aren't buying today doesn't mean they should ignore you..
It's not formal and it's not even based on my customer lists.. it's based on contacts and shared information..
If you don't share with others they won't share with you.. It doesn't have to be your idea or information. You simply need to be someone they can talk to and maybe you have something worth while for them..
It's how I'll get my next job.. It's How I've gotten my last three jobs..
Frenchy,
You would think right but I can't get the time of day from my suppliers when I AM buying let alone now. It just seems no one cares about anyone else anymore. Last year I bought $6k worth of materials from one company and they had the balls to send me an invoice a week later for $50. they missed in the delivery charge. Needless to say I haven't bought from them again.
But I understand what you are saying. Just around here anytime I have tried to get any kind of group together, everyone is so suspicious of everyone else.
We have a local builders association but its $700. a year to belong. Was a member for a few years but didn't get enough out of it to rejoin.
I want a small group that would meet at like a Cracker Barrel every week or so and be more casual and less $$$ driven yet I am sure being around others in the trade would result in some kind of work for everyone.
Part of what has driven me out of business is feeling like I have been going at most of it alone.
Mike
Oak River Mike
Maybe the reason I've been so successful is because of those contacts.. I'd be driving around seeking my next customer and spot a previous one.. Once you buy a good telehandler it's not something that needs replacement so when I stopped in it was as a curtesy. To make my visit worth while I always came with "gifts" they were techniques or sources or information of value to them.
If I couldn't contact them a couple of times a year, I'd at least call them and I understood they didn't want to waste time with empty chatter so I gave them the lastest stuff of what nail guns were good or something of value to them..
Hopefully if they knew of someone who was in the market for a telehandler I'd get that call as well. It's the way it works..
Set up your own network and start to work it.. phone calls are cheap.. take little time and you never know where they will lead to..
"Maybe the reason I've been so successful ..."You're not successful....YOU'RE UNEMPLOYED!!!!!Just trying to yank yer chain a bit. ;) Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
Yeh, but I'm unemployed in a really cool house! and 9 months later all my bills and payments are currant.. (chain yankin' right back atcha!)
nothing official ...
but we all call each other every now and then.
have a great group of subs / friends.
just today called one bud who's off with back problems , then got a call from another bud to see if I landed a job we'd talked about coupla weeks ago.
I call my plumber/ hvac / electrician and painter to see how they're doing if we haven't run into each other lately.
my fireplace guy has a store front so I always stop in when I passing and see his van parked out front.
Only one of two of the guys I consider close friends ... but we all keep our circle in touch and most know what the others are up to.
we all also have different circles and everyone is pretty good at passing names and numbers around as referals. I also email other contacts on a semi-regular basis just to touch base and keep my name fresh.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Nothing formal like you're proposing, but I've got many relationships similar to Buck. My wife and I go out to dinner frequently with another couple. He's got a framing company as well. It's nice to talk to someone who 'gets it'. We help each other out too when we can.... throwing work back and forth when one is too busy or too slow. I also talk frequently with lumber salesmen, multiple GCs, and a few excavators. The excavators always know what's ready and when in regards to framers.
diesel,
Very cool. Thats what I would like to be able to do. Would be nice to throw some work both ways with others.
Mike
It is a good relationship Mike but it's a rare one too. The couple I'm referring to are very close friends... they were both in our wedding party. I think you have to be that kind of close to pull it off. You gotta know that no matter what, the other guy won't take food off your table when you need it, and you won't do the same to him.
To help keep it all honest, we sub to one another. So if I throw him a frame, he bids the work, but I contract it. The money runs clean through my account and I pay him directly. It keeps the money transparent so no one is ever wondering if they're going to lose a good GC because the other guy undercut the prices to "move in". To pull all this off, insurance has to be right on and we both have named each other's business' as "additionally insured" on our GL policies. On top of that, we've both signed "indemnify and hold harmless...." agreements.
It keeps it in the "favor" column. Like I said... it's a rare bird. Case in point....
Last summer I got a call from a lumber salesman I work with frequently. He told me of another framer who was swamped. This guy has been in business for about 20 years. Solid crew. Never looks for work. Always booked out for months. Boats, vacation home, dies a couple specs a year for himself, etc. Anyway, he wanted to sub some of his work out, but didn't trust just anyone with it. He asked my lumber guy who he thought might be a safe bet and my name came up. Because of the trust thing, this framer had me bid the job to him and was going to sub it out to me. In other words, his name would be on the contract as the framer, but I'd do the work and get paid by him. I was getting my price, was confident I'd get paid, and it was a good frame so I didn't care whose name was on it.
Anyway, all systems go. Or so I thought. It was a Friday afternoon, my forklift was already on site and the lumber was coming Monday morning. We were all set to start. The GC calls me and tells me that the deal is off. Told me the price was way too high but he just found out because the other framer had just got around to getting the contract over to him. I had 6 weeks cleared on my schedule for this job. I called the other framer to find out what's up. He told me that (in so many words) he got cold feet and marked the job up $12K in case he got stuck fixing my mistakes. That lost the job for both of us. He told me that if I could work out something with the GC myself then the frame was all mine though.
I called the GC and, without throwing the other framer under the bus, offered to do the job for the $12K less.... which was my original price anyway. I got the job, drew up a contract over the weekend, and started the job on Monday as planned. However..... that GC now had a new framer. I was working for $12K less than 'the other guy' and everyone knew it! He liked our work and the rest is history. I'm supposed to do two for him this summer.... both over 5000 sq ft. And he turned me on to two other frames that we did this past winter even though he wasn't the GC.
After the dust settled I did call the other framer back to make nice. I really had no beef with him since it all turned out ok for me. But I could see why he'd be mad at me. He really wasn't.... just said he should have known better and that he'd learned another lesson. But he won't sub work to me anymore either. He probably lost about $225 a year in volume with that one scenario. He's much more established than I am, but it'd kill me to lose an account like that.
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Edited 5/1/2008 6:29 pm ET by dieselpig
Diesel,
Sounds you you have a really well-developed relationship. Thats awesome. I agree it is VERY rare and would require you knowing the other guy really well. But its still good that its possible.
Mike
Good story Brian.
He will be licking that wound for a loooong time.
Do you think he was greedy or just made a bad move? Didn't know your rep well enough?[email protected]
No idea really Eric. I don't know him well enough to get a good read on him. My guess was a little of each...... trying to turn a quick buck and a little CYA while he was at it. Since I was to be working under his contract, he did have a right to mark it up some. I would have too.... he was assuming some risk, after all. But how much he should have marked it up appears to be debatable.View Image
Mike,
I try real hard to have a get together of all my vendors, subs, and employees on a quarterly basis. I decided I needed to be the rainmaker on this event and it works out real well even though it is not my personality.
First, we get to have a party, usually real informal, bbq and beer and lots of story telling and BS. We have become an extended family. It tightens all my relations with the folks we work with each and every day and we get to share ideas about whats going on.
I also try to do lunch with each of these folks at least once a quarter to get a pulse on how they are doing and what they are seeing around our area. While most rely on me to get them work on my projects and other referrals, they are always looking for opportunities to refer me and my wife.
Like you I would like to interact with more GC types, but my short stint at NARI was somewhat disappointing in that I really did not run into guys who worked like I do.
If you can give it a go. It takes some effort initially and turnout may be low at first, but it will grow and it is lots of fun to hang out with these folks.
Bruce
Networking was absolutely essential in the art fair business. I did custom woodwork so a couple of brothers who only did production and wholesale would send someone who wanted a coffee table to me, and i'd pass their info on to owners of souvenir stores. When both our businesses were starting up we ordered lumber together to get better pricing and split shipping. We avoided doing similar items unless we hit different price points.
We'd share expenses to do sales trip to places like Glacier Park to collect new wholesale accounts. I'd make other people's display bins and racks and hire a photographer to shoot my work for juries. We'd all share our lists of the best shows to apply to and what each jury was looking for. Old hands would mentor the younger ones on booth design, how to sell, merchant credit card accounts, etc. I came up with a wheeled-cabinet design that held stock and also formed the structure of my display, a design which several people modified/copied. My house was generally packed with artists passing through from a few days before Thanksgiving to just before Christmas, when we'd make about half our yearly income doing shows. It was kinda like VaTom's experience set to the music of an internal combustion engine.
I put 30K miles a year on my pickup travelling to shows, but i never spent more than ten nights a year in a motel. I haven't done a show since 2003, yet i've talked to three of my artist friends in the past week. My house is full of art work i traded for. Tight bunch, those crafty types...
I have a few guys that I network with. We have minimal overlap, but often refer jobs back and forth and learn a bit from each other. We also hire each other to help out with jobs when needed. Some jobs are too big, too small, our outside our core competence and can easily be passed to another. We also know which customers to work for and which to avoid.
There are people who are sure you are going to steal work from them, and fewer SOBs that actually will. But in general, with the right attitude, you will gain from strength in numbers. Let's say there are only four people in town and three of them are networked. All three of them have advantage over the outsider.
There's no sense trying to beat yourself silly trying to solve an problem that your buddy has already done and developed a good solution.
Edited 5/4/2008 6:16 pm ET by byhammerandhand