Do you use a construction calculator?
jjapogee
| Posted in Tools for Home Building on
You know, one of those models that do all kinds of jobsite calculations, from fractions to inches, etc.? If so, which one?
Replies
I have two construction masters that cost close to a hundred bucks each when I got them. Now I've got a 5-dollar application on my iPod touch that does the same thing.
Edited 2/3/2009 11:01 pm by mmoogie
Construction master pro. I think its great for stairs, but the rafter numbers never come out right in real world. Ive tried it quite a bit and I dont get it, read the manual ect.. The number is in the balpark but not what I need.
I use the CM pro trig model, very accurate stair and rafter calculations. Take out the unavoidable human error and it hasnt failed me yet.
Woods favorite carpenter
I have banned the construction master calculators from the apprenticeship classes I teach at the local college. I want the students to know the concepts that they just magically arrive at with the contstruction master. A 10 dollar calculator with square and square root function is all you ever really need to be a carpenter. Similar triangle and pythagoreon theorem will build you any roof you are ever likely to see.
Have a good day
Cliffy
I have banned the construction master calculators from the apprenticeship classes I teach at the local college. I want the students to know the concepts that they just magically arrive at with the contstruction master. A 10 dollar calculator with square and square root function is all you ever really need to be a carpenter. Similar triangle and pythagoreon theorem will build you any roof you are ever likely to see.
Cliffy,
I know I'll be in a minority here but I agree with you. I do everything I need with a $3 calculator.
count me in that minority! (although its been a long time since I've needed to do any trig on a jobsite)View Image "...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
Looks like we may not be in the minority so far. For me, it's hard to beat a solar/loight powered scientific caclulator.
You can also do this with pencil and paper, framing square, and several other methods. Do you ban them All? :)
No, but the framing square rafter table is just a list of the hypotonuse lengths of a number of right angled triangles. So before we use it they understand where the numbers come from. If you drop your pencil off a roof you can always sharpen it and use it, if you know the concept to use.
I don't allow the construction master because you just end up with an answer without really understanding how you got there.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Cliffy,
I recently took a class from Billy Dillion and I wished that I could have gone through an apprenticeship with someone like that. He instructs for the Timber Framer's Guild and has traveled all over the US and even Europe.
He went through the layout to figure out every angle on an irregular roof in about 5 minutes. I learned using trig (even though I don't know trig) and a CM to calculate roofs.
It made me much more productive than the carp I worked with who wanted to use a $3 calculator and square root and it increased my understanding.
But, I wished I would have learned the rafter square and deeloped drawings first.
The framing square is great when you are building a pitch that is listed. If you have to build a 5.68 on 12 roof and understand Pythagoreon theorm and similar triangles then the rafter lengths are a piece of cake on the $3 calculator. Did Larry Haun and his generation build millions of roofs multiplying the old school way? AS far as trig goes, you can use Tan (rise/run inv tan) to get the angle on the plumb cuts easily if you don't have a framing square handy or like to use a mitre saw.
I've enjoyed your articles in JLC and have passed a couple issues around to the students. The one that comes to mind is the "getting organized for faster framing" In these parts no body that I know of does the production style layout with the aftermarket worm drive base and chain saw.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Thanks for the comments.
You hit the issue right on in my opinion. We frame a ton of goofy pitched roofs. Most often we start with a whole pitch, ie 8-12, then match a roof to it, then adjust a nother roof to that and so we get these 6 9/16"-12 roofs.
To me it would be ludicrous (with as much as I'm paid) not to use the CM. I use the CM Trig because I can use the formulas for bastard roofs to get the backing angle, sheathing angles etc for bastard roofs. I'm using trig, the functions in the calculator and its all in ft-inches (set to 16ths).
This is my approach, use the best tools possible, invest in production techniques, then use them.
Why use a chainsaw to gang cut rafters? But not a CM to quickly figure the rafters?
In addition to that, starting the job square and parallel results in a faster job. The CM is an essential layout tool. Especially since you can get them super cheap. Not every one wants to buy a PLS90 to get a square layout.
If I was teaching, I'd teach as many ways as possible, but on the jobsite I want to use the most accurate and productive techniques.
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From Lot 41 Sinclair Heights
I want to use the most accurate and productive techniques.
How is a CM more accurate than a basic calculator? The most basic handheld calculator calculates to several decimal places.
The productivity issue is often raised by proponents of the CM. But, in the scheme of things, how much productivity is gained? On a basic gable roof, the gain can be counted in seconds. On a regular hip or valley roof, the gain can be counted in minutes (maybe 10 minutes gained). For squaring up a foundation or laying out a stair stringer, the time gained is close to zero. All this has to be offset against the time the user has spent learning to use the CM. It also has to be offset against the expense of the CM. For the work that I do, the tiny gains made by the CM would never pay for the initial cost in time and money.
A lot of the appeal of the CM is that it calculates in feet, inches and fractions of inches. In 40 years of building, I've never used feet and inches. For big things like foundations, I calculated in feet and used a tape measure laid out in the engineer's scale (decimalized feet) to lay out the work.
For complex work on a smaller items, I have, until recently, used inches only. (I've never gone to a sporting event and participated in the wave; I've never forwarded an email to 10 people; and I've never accepted a measurement in feet and inches). For over thirty years, I converted from fractions to decimals, did all my calculations in decimalized inches, then converted back to fractions to lay out the work. To avoid the conversions, I eventually bought a tape measure laid out in decimalized inches (mechanic's scale).
Now I do my measurements, calculations, and layouts in metric. When you use a measuring system that matches the math you're calculating in the CM loses its luster. They're not selling many of these gadgets in countries that use metric, which is to say the rest of the world. In the final analysis, the CM is a space-age gadget used to preserve a medieval measuring system.
Edited 2/5/2009 11:48 am ET by Mudslinger
"In 40 years of building, I've never used feet and inches."
You live in a very different world from mine brother.
But then I've only been in this business for 39 years.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
i have been doing this for 39 sumting years and have never used anything but inches but then again im still using the rafter square;]
The most basic handheld calculator calculates to several decimal places
So does the CM, but much more expensive. Once you know how to use it, like anything else, it's fast.
A lot of the appeal of the CM is that it calculates in feet, inches and fractions of inches.
And decimals.
For over thirty years, I converted from fractions to decimals, did all my calculations in decimalized inches, then converted back to fractions to lay out the work. To avoid the conversions, I eventually bought a tape measure laid out in decimalized inches (mechanic's scale).
You can do all this with the CM in seconds. CM works in decimals if you want and converts to fractions in 1-2 seconds if you wish. If your comfortable doing it your way for 30 years that's fine but the CM is by far IMO the fastest way. Is it a good way to teach kids, no.
Joe Carola
Its a commercially available base plate made by Bigfoot, love mine he turned me onto them as well. Woods favorite carpenter
love mine he turned me onto them as well.
Thank you? :-)
Better to leave that comment "IN context" :-)
I hear you loud and clear. =)
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View Image
Woods favorite carpenter
That photo would get you in a little hot water in Ontario. No gloves, shorts, running shoes, is this not a construction site? Is the arm hiding the hearing protection and glasses?
That photo would get you in a little hot water in Ontario. No gloves, shorts, running shoes, is this not a construction site? Is the arm hiding the hearing protection and glasses?
In this case, I believe you're discussing a picture of homeowner (Matt) working on his own house - they have dress code rules there governing that?View Image "...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
you are correct one is at my own home, the other is on a job, either way i pay my own insurance as a part of owning and operating. Pants, and other things are not going to slow that chainsaw down if it goes south. so im going to be comfortable while i do my job.
I do need to get in the habit of wearing my glasses more often he is correct about that, you only get one set of those. Woods favorite carpenter
There was no disrespect intended in my post to you! AS the previous post explains, although I have a government ticket for chainsaw operation from my former job, I keep mine for cutting trees. Chainsaw pants and gloves (mine have kevlar) and work boots will definitelly save your flesh if the chainsaw goes south.
We have a dangerous profession.
Have a good day
CLiffy
We have a dangerous profession.
amen to that. only thing I can't understand is why its not reflected in our pay!View Image "...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
Working on your own place: the ministry of labour stays the hell out your way!
The rules we have for workplace safety come from the regulations made under the Occupational Health and Safety Act. Similar but different to your OSHA. Section 112 of our regs says you must have adequate training, and wear adequate personal protective equuipment including gloves, eye and hearing protection.
I used to work with a guy who has a nice scar right down his whole face from a chainsaw so they get my respect.
Have a good day
Cliffy
mine tooView Image "...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
I remember those photos from his orig post. He got lectured big-time by all the ol' timers for his chain being loose too...
Wow! Quite the range of opinion here, and articulated respectfully. Thanks for all the input- it is very helpful.
"want to use the most accurate and productive techniques".
How is a CM more accurate than a basic calculator? The most basic handheld calculator calculates to several decimal places. I wasn't comparing the CM to a basic calculator, but to using a rafter square. I wasn't very clear.
However, the CM is faster because you are already in ft and inches, and maybe the argument could be made that reducing the steps does result in more accuracy because it lowers the possibility of making a mistake. Also, the CM keeps track of rounding so it makes for a better tool in my opinion.
The productivity issue is often raised by proponents of the CM. But, in the scheme of things, how much productivity is gained? On a basic gable roof, the gain can be counted in seconds. On a regular hip or valley roof, the gain can be counted in minutes (maybe 10 minutes gained). For squaring up a foundation or laying out a stair stringer, the time gained is close to zero. All this has to be offset against the time the user has spent learning to use the CM. It also has to be offset against the expense of the CM. For the work that I do, the tiny gains made by the CM would never pay for the initial cost in time and money.
I can't quantify for you what the time savings are. But I will say this, I went as high as calculus in college (toward a business focus) and I used a scientific calculator on the jobsite for my high school years (after school and during summers/breaks) and when I switched to the CM, it was noticeable that we saved time and things were more accurate. It wasn't just me that noticed, but the carp who taught me and had 30 years under his belt in the trades.
I think it is faster to square using the CM because if I have a goofy number like 59' 9 3/8" as one side of the triangle and 43' 10 3/4", I can get a diagonal in ft/inches very very quickly, with perfect accuracy.
What work do you do? Because we are only talking about a $50 calculator. I know that my cost to the company I work for with benefits is a little north of $50/hour. So if one hour of my time is saved over a year, that breaks even. If my CM lasts longer than a year, well thats a bonus.
A lot of the appeal of the CM is that it calculates in feet, inches and fractions of inches. In 40 years of building, I've never used feet and inches. For big things like foundations, I calculated in feet and used a tape measure laid out in the engineer's scale (decimalized feet) to lay out the work. I don't mean this to sound rude, but good for you. How many of the tradesman (and I'm really talking about framers, finish carps, foundation guys) do you think in the US can say that? I don't think many, but to be honest, I haven't travelled and worked all over.
For complex work on a smaller items, I have, until recently, used inches only. (I've never gone to a sporting event and participated in the wave; I've never forwarded an email to 10 people; and I've never accepted a measurement in feet and inches). For over thirty years, I converted from fractions to decimals, did all my calculations in decimalized inches, then converted back to fractions to lay out the work. To avoid the conversions, I eventually bought a tape measure laid out in decimalized inches (mechanic's scale). So if this was a survey, the sample size being 1. . . . it wouldn't reflect reality.
Now I do my measurements, calculations, and layouts in metric. When you use a measuring system that matches the math you're calculating in the CM loses its luster. They're not selling many of these gadgets in countries that use metric, which is to say the rest of the world. In the final analysis, the CM is a space-age gadget used to preserve a medieval measuring system.
I disagree with you. It is not a space-age gadget any more than any other calculator is. I've talked to guys who back in the day used a graphing calculator to calc entire roofs (late 80's) beause they were directly competing against other roof cutters and time=money. I talked to a guy 3 weeks ago who framed in the tracts in California and he said back in the day a good carp made more money than the doctors they were building for.
I have to take issue too with your comment "In the final analysis. . .", you are making an analysis based on very limited experience. What value is that?
I work in a country that uses Feet and Inches. Therefore I use tools that are labeled in Feet and Inches. Like a tape measure. The blueprints I receive are in Feet and Inches, etc. Why not use a calculator that makes working under those conditions easier and more productive?
I had the chance to talk with some of the guys at Calculated Industries at JLC LIVE 2 years ago and with Mike Sloggatt show them how to layout a rafter and what we do in the field. They are very interested in putting functions into the caculators that are what we use in the field. They do a good job and it takes about 1 hour to learn how to use on the jobsite.
Put the manual next to the toilet and in no time you'll be a master :-)
Tim,
One of the funny things about debates on productivity is that the debate often consumes more time than any of the methods put forth can save in a month of work. I think that's already the case here.
Real productivity gains come when you save time on tasks that you repeat hundreds of times in a day. If you figure out a way to save 5 seconds on each shingle laid in a day and you run 10 squares (810 shingles), you save over an hour in that day. If you figure out how to save 4 minutes on the layout of a rafter roof, you've saved 4 minutes for that day.
Now, let me respond to a few of your comments.
the CM is faster because you are already in ft and inches
As I said previously, I'm never in feet and inches. I either use feet or inches, not both together. Most carpenters stay in continuous inches for most of the day. I'm sure you don't lay out studs as follows: 1-ft., 4-in., 2-ft., 8-in., 4-ft., 5-ft., 4-in., and so on. Nor do roofers who want to lay out courses every 10-in. use feet and inches. Most of the work that gets done on houses is done in continuous inches; that's the way our tape measures are laid out.
if I have a goofy number like 59' 9 3/8" as one side of the triangle and 43' 10 3/4", I can get a diagonal in ft/inches very very quickly, with perfect accuracy.
Those are goofy numbers. Why not just use 59.78 and 43.9? With these numbers and a $3 calculator you can find the hypotenuse in less than 30 seconds. No conversion would be necessary if you used a 100-ft. tape laid out in the Engineer's scale to make the measurement.
I don't mean this to sound rude, but good for you. How many of the tradesman (and I'm really talking about framers, finish carps, foundation guys) do you think in the US can say that? I don't think many, but to be honest, I haven't travelled and worked all over.
Here you were talking about working in the Engineer's scale (i.e.., decimalized feet). The engineer's scale is not weird or unusual; it has been standard for surveying for decades. That includes the surveyors who staked out foundations on many of the jobs I've been involved in. It's also a common tool for people who lay out and build foundations. One hundred foot tapes laid out in this scale are available at survey supply stores and commercial masonry supply stores. At the Home Depot near me they have a 6-ft. ruler laid out in the Engineer's scale on one side and feet and inches on the other. (This can be used to convert from one scale to the other, without using math). The Engineer's scale is a great tool to have for foundations because, to use your term, you don't have to deal with goofy numbers.
So if this was a survey, the sample size being 1. . . . it wouldn't reflect reality.
This referred to the use of decimalized inches. I agree that very few carpenters have or use a tape laid out in tenths. The one I have was hard to find. However, carpenters have gone back and forth between fractions and decimals for a long time. In that respect, I'm not a sample of one.
In the 1960s and the 1970s, most tape measures had decimal to fraction conversion charts printed on the back side of the tape. In most shops, there was a fraction to decimal conversion chart on the wall.
Other indications that carpenters have gone back and forth between fractions and decimals for generations are the rulers and squares of the nineteenth century. The scales that are still found on a traditional rafter square have been used since the 1840s. They include one edge that's laid out in tenths of an inch. The rafter tables provide the hypotenuses of numerous right triangles in decimalized inches. The brace scale gives the hypotenuse of a series of right triangles in decimal form. A huge number of rulers in the nineteenth century were laid out on one side with decimal inches.
Typically, carpenters converted measurements to decimal form, did their calculations with a pencil and paper, then returned to fractions for measurements. It was a ponderous task and, like most builders, I was delighted when inexpensive calculators suddenly became available. The square root function was particularly welcome. You can't appreciate how nice that was unless you've calculated the square root of a large number with pencil and paper.
It was at this moment--when calculators with square root functions became available--that a great leap in production took place. Calculations that might take 30 minutes were suddenly reduced to a few minutes. The only problem was an old one: the measurements were often in fractions and the math was in decimal form. To me, this was a minor problem because I was already very familiar with the process of converting back and forth. With a basic calculator it takes seconds.
I have to take issue too with your comment "In the final analysis. . .",
What's wrong with that comment? It's a given that it's my opinion just like your statement that "The CM is an essential layout tool" was an opinion.
And finally:
I work in a country that uses Feet and Inches. Therefore I use tools that are labeled in Feet and Inches
In this country, carpenters and architects use feet and inches. Scientists, doctors, most engineers, auto manufacturers, mechanics and machinists use metric. State and federal contracts in construction are now usually in metric dimensions. The 25-meter pool has replaced the 25-yard pool and the 400 meter track is rapidly replacing the quarter mile track. This country uses feet, inches and meters.
Edited 2/6/2009 4:04 pm ET by Mudslinger
Edited 2/6/2009 4:10 pm ET by Mudslinger
The reason I participate in debates like this one, is so that those who read the thread will get a broad point of view. Therefore, the more vigorous the debate, the better.
You've made me think about my position, but to be honest, my mind hasn't changed.
I have found that the Construction Master calculator, with the functions built in:
stair functions,
common rafter,
hip rafter, valley rafter,
feet/inches that convert quickly,
circle functions,
area,
trig functions,
etc
make this a powerful tool that can increase production, and decrease mistakes.
Is it a necessary tool? Nope. But to answer the thread title Do you use a construction calculator? Yes I do and the reasons have been stated.http://www.pioneerbuildersonline.com
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From Lot 30 Muirkirk
http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler
Tim - I missed some of the debate, but caught the tail end. I envy you, in that you use these calculations on a regular basis. I haven't built a home (framed) in years. Even room additions have been few and far between here. Most of my work of late has been finish work, and interior remodels, kitchen and bath. I don't get to play with the math much these days. =(
Here's something to consider: when you're using the CM, you are using a trig. calculator. Its just set up with slightly different keys, but its doing the same thing. So my question to you is, Why not learn the basics of trig, which can be gleaned from the internet and are easily mastered in a few evenings (sine, cosine, tangent, cotangent, secant cosecant), learn the simple steps to convert from fraction to decimal and back again. Just as a mental exercise. Geometry is easier yet, and I'm guessing you already know most of that stuff, i.e., pythagorean theorem, area of a circle, diameter of a circle, etc.
Then, get a $15 trig calculator, and play around with it. Its kinda fun, watching the math work its problem solving miracles. For a month or two, just use the trig. OK, it might slow you down a tad. But I'm talking stuff you can do at home, looking over the prints, with a beer on the table and CSI on the tube, not jobsite slowdown. Stick to your CM on the jobsite.
Then, after those two months, figure any problem any way you want. But you'll have the geome-trig mastered, and you'll feel better for it - cuz learnin' new ways of doin' stuff is fun!
or not =)View Image "...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,
I DO use trig. I bought the CM Trig Plus a few years back and learned to use it. I'm still working throught the formulas (trig) for irregular roofs. I can use them fine, but why they work the way they work has been tougher for me.
However, at the eyebrow class Billy Dillon showed the "kernel" and developing the triangles for an irregular roof. I'm hoping to build the model here before too long. Now I'm "seeing" the formulas.
I don't want to just use them, but know WHY they work.
Here is the link to his class. Zoom in on the piture and look at the pic on the left. Talk about developed drawings.
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From Billy's eyebrow class
http://www.pioneerbuildersonline.com
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From Lot 30 Muirkirk
http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler
wow - looks like an m.c. escher drawing!View Image "...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
Like you I find it minimizes mistakes, and that alone is worth the moeny for the calculator. its not essential, neither is a circular saw, get out a hand saw and have a blast for all i care, dealers choice.
I honestly dont see why some are opposed to it, its a calculator not the apocolypse. =) Woods favorite carpenter
Nice photos. I get a little freaked out with chainsaws and not having all the proper gear on though.
Check out this webb site http://www.blocklayer.com/Roof/RoofEng.aspx
Have a good day
Cliffy
No one in Florida wears long pants or boots unless its a Federal project. Shorts is the norm here and tennis shoes.
Does anybody on your jobs ever step on a nail, drop something on their foot, get nasty abrasions, sun burned, step scraps and twist their ankle etc.
Is wearing shorts and tennis shoes legal on your job sites?
Have a good day
Cliffy
The few who do wear pants and boots are in the minority. A sprained ankle can happen no matter the footwear. This is Florida. Sunburn is mostly a tourist thing, people that live here usually know better.
Residential is much different from commercial, and the further north you go, the more regulation there is.
Where I live the Natives call anyone from north of I-10 a Yankee.
Edited 2/7/2009 2:23 pm ET by catfish
I get a little freaked out with chainsaws and not having all the proper gear on though.
Me too. That is why I bring wear a force field :-)http://www.pioneerbuildersonline.com
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From Lot 30 Muirkirk
http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler
I always though the reason there are so many 5 on 12 roofs is that 13 was an easy number to multiply in the days before 3 dollar calculators.Have a good day
Cliffy
Yeah... ok.
If you can and do, do all that you mention there.. then of course you don't need or want a foot/inch constr calculator.
But I do!
As long as the measuring system here uses feet and inches, I will use a constr master to speed along and simplify my work.
you don't need or want a foot/inch constr calculator.
But I do!
As long as the measuring system here uses feet and inches, I will use a constr master to speed along and simplify my work.
I'm all for that, Waters. Nowhere in any of my posts did I suggest that anyone should not use a CM. I think you should work with the tool you feel most comfortable working with.
Tim - that's a nice shot. As I recall, you had a chainsaw attachment to a skilsaw last time I saw, this looks like a new setup. Any details you care to share? Is it something you had made up, or is it commercially available?
Edited 2/5/2009 12:38 pm by Huck
Huck,
It is the Big Foot Heacutter that bevels to 75. The first one we bought had a small base and it tended to lean when making the cut. A friend made a bigger base for us, but it was steel and super heavy. I talked to Emma at Big Foot when they came to Portland and she told me to send her dimensions and they'd make one. So we did back in late 05' and tried it out spring 06 and it works flawlessly.
I make 12-12 cuts in 2x12 with perfect accuracy.
Here is the first one and my foot wasn't that close to the saw. It just looks that way.
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Here is the next iteration
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And now the Big Foot revised Head Cutter (http://www.bigfoottools.com)
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From Lot 35 Muirkirk
Maybe I should elaborate a little on why I don't allow the construction master in my classes. They need to learn the concepts first. One they have the concept and go back to their jobs I bet a few of them use the calculator. They won't be allowed to use it in their Provincial REd SEal Exam.
Funny thing though. I usually have a few students who have the CM and say they know how to use it. When I teach the theory and they start seeing how the concepts come together the light bulb goes off in their head. The only problem I have with the CM is that people skip learning right to the easy to use tool.
I can't say I use the chainsaw or your production techniques because I'm not a production framer. I'm more of a Mike Guertin type. I'm in at the design stage, From drawing the plans, to the last tpiece of trim.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Maybe I should elaborate a little on why I don't allow the construction master in my classes. They need to learn the concepts first.
I figured as much (pun unintended!). When I first learned the trig, the same light went on. I read a one-page article in FHB years ago, that taught how to use trig to calculate construction angles and distances, and converting from fractions to decimals and back again. Have you ever seen it? As I recall it was a very good primer for the uninitiated. I actually haven't had occasion to use it in years, but it probably wouldn't be that hard to pick it back up again.
I'm in at the design stage, From drawing the plans, to the last tpiece of trim.
Wow, I didn't think there were any of you guys around any more. OK, other than Mike Smith, that is! I used to work for a guy like that - and like many experiences of my youth, I had no idea at the time what a rare privilege it was! I think its a tragedy that most of today's young people in the industry have been deprived of the opportunity to learn homebuilding from blueprint to cabinet pulls, because of the modern "production" methodology.
View Image "...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 2/6/2009 9:24 am by Huck
Are you the guy with the white Ford f150 and the tan tailgate? If yes nice drawers man! That was one of the designs I looked at before I finally got off my but to build my own. If memory serves me you may be in sunny California. I just came inside from shovelling my and my neighbours driveway. Sunday my girls and I are going to ski at the little ski hill next door.
I don't remember the article about trig you mention. I started reading the mag when I found it in Heathrow Airport in 1990, have not misssed many since.
I really avoid the trig in class. The only trig I give them is that rise over run inverse tan gives them the angle they need if they cut their plumb cuts on a mitre saw.
The reason that I have been in the segment of the market I'm in is because I started building my own houses to live in then sell. In Ontario you can sell your principal residence and any profit is tax free. I just tried to lessen my dependency on other trades and people. Now I do what I want and sub out a little. I can only work for people that are not in a big hurry. That is okay as there never seems to be a shortage of work.
I support your premise that newbies learning the ins and outs of the trade need to understand concepts. My son was forced to work calculus problems by hand in addtion to his calculator. Maybe that's what he missed a perfect score on his SAT by 1 point!!! (Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know the SAT is not calculus!!) On the other hand, when Im in production, I want the shortest procedure with the best chance for a perfect answer. And for that, I use the construction master for estimations and layout. But then again, I understand the concepts....I hope!!
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In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
I still use a pencil, piece of wood and when I need it, a solar powered calculator. As long as I can divide, get square root add subtract and multiply, i can figure out anything i need to.
(and I am an engineer by training)
I usually calculate 2x to check but never cut rafters. (bring in my framers for the heavy work)
I do all the stair calc's etc.
I am thinking of getting an electronic tape measure for bidding purposes though.
Read a lot of the reviews on them and they seem to make sense.
I use the construction master, but mainly when doing layout & the grid on the prints is somewhere out in the street or something.
Other than that, the cheap 3 dollar has treated me well over the years.
I use a construction master whenever I can. Lots of ways to do the calcs, I was taught by a guy who used nothing but the tables on a rafter square, and a pencil for the math.
The square even has a decimal to fraction converter on it (Bet some of you didn't know that)
Even though I don't use the tables much anymore, I can't bring myself to buy a square without them.
John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
"The square even has a decimal to fraction converter on it (Bet some of you didn't know that)"Naaah! That's a nail file!AitchKay
I was going to buy one but it looked to complicated to me.
I use the rafter square for everything.
I do have a concrete slide rule they used to give out.
I like that
I have never been on a jobsite where a carpenter with a construction master completed calculations faster than me w/ a $3.00 calculator. And they are second guessing their numbers...
The Construction Master is WAY faster than your 3$ calculator.
I have one, the CMII. I use it occasionally, mostly for figuring rise heights, and for adding. For a lot of things, I find it faster to do the math in my head.
I can do roofs with a trig calc., framing sq., rafter tables book, a const. master IV, and once even figured a roof with an E-6B flight computer used for cross country flying. (it's basically a trig slide rule)
I'll take the const. master IV unless I'm trying to impress someone. I even use it for quickly figuring roof decking measurements and the "common difference" for gable end studs.
I teach building construction at a vocational school and show my students all the methods I mentioned (ok, not the E6-B) but must take issue with eliminating the const. master. I have students that possess excellent physical carpentry skills but aren't very, well, cerebral. For them, the const. master allows them to operate at a different level in terms of production.
Should they be left behind because they can't use a trig calc.? Framing square?
The Jobber brand calculators are great for adding up a series of dimensions in no time. But learning to think in sixteenths of an inch can be a pain. (ie: 1/2" is 8/16")IMHO any of the construction master claculators are great. I have a desktop model at work to make it easier on my big fingers and old eyes. I'd suggest a trig calculator, as it gives you the option to work with angles and not just pitches.
Politics would be a helluva good business if it weren't for the goddamned people. [Richard M. Nixon]
I'm writing my IP (Interprovincal) Journeyman Exam next friday - not allowed to take a CM into the exam. Bummer.In school its all solar power trig calcs. That way we've all learned the principals and can act independent of the programable calculators. That said for speed and accuracy - the CM is the way to go.On my jobsites the most accurate calcs are done with the CM - with two guys doing the numbers. My Casio Solar will stay in the truck - that way if I'm at the lumber yard and forget the CM I have a back up.Nobody newschool is doing it long hand with a rafter square or with a 3$ drugstore calculator.
Hey good luck on the exam.
I taught the construction math class for the carpenters union part time for 3 years the kids started out using dollar store calculators. I carry a construction master in my orange safety vest inside pocket. I was doing layout for a $ 50 million CAl Train Maint facility . the surveyors do their math in decimal feet. my guys carried a stanley tape measure. i had to do quick conversions. also the down hill curve radius layouts the surveyors gave us were wrong. I needed the construction master to check them out. They had one set of tracks off 6 inches where the rails were supposed to meet
Constr master pro has about all you need for 60 bucks or so online.
Use it every day.
Used a slide rule and brain for first house.
Have never even considered a 'construction calculator', even at $5.
You probably wouldn't use a construction calculator unless you could build it yourself LOL
I use one of these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYsOi6L_Pw4
cool story behind he invention and the inventor, he designed it on scraps of paper while in a concentration camp in WWII!!!
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion"
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
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according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
I carry a ti-83 from high school. It has a large screen that allows you to see your past few calculations. Does everything a construction calc does just without telling you feet and inches in fractions.
TI-83 is $25 to $50 more than a construction master.... does a heck of a lot more than you'll ever need it to... and doesn't work in feet and inches.
like i said from high school, then also required in college so 25-50 cheaper than wasting $ on a c.m. I also use the finance functions for figuring loan pmts and for tvm calculations. 12 years and counting out of a 100 dollar calc seems good to me