Doing Free Work for Family – what a pain
how do you guys deal with family, and should it just be avoided at all costs??
here is my story:
My parents bought a large fixer upper (3400 sqft) last year, and wanted to be in before x-mas (they closed escrow on nov 17th). I neglected my real job (i’m a computer guy) and devoted every minute i had during that month to building a new kitchen, installing all new baseboards, door casings, repairing cat piss saturated drywall, converting a loft into a room, organizing the closets, installing various electrical outlets/lights, and managing any subs that did work (mainly flooring & paint). they got into the house before x-mas, it wasn’t 100% done, but it worked. over the next couple months or so i finished up various loose ends, and tackled many other new projects that they added on. as of now, i just don’t have baseboards in the closets, and I’m missing toe kick on the kitchen island (i ran out). plus i haven’t started remodeling two of the bathrooms (its a 15yr old home, they’re not that bad to start off)
Till this day they harass me for not finishing the jobs, and how they should just hire a “real” contractor to finish the work… mind you i never got paid for this work, i mean they are my parents and i would never accept money from them… but com’mon!! I busted my @ss, and saved them at least $20-30k in labor, and thats the thanks i get?? to top it off today my dad tells me “i’m going to hire someone to finish the work you started…” I couldn’t believe he was serious, but he was. I blew up, and well thats that. its going to eat me up inside knowing someone else is finishing up the work, but i have to tend to my life sometimes…
its time for a drink.
Replies
hmmmmm.... your parents are in a better position financially , than you are, right ?
so...... you take time from your family.... to remodel their home ... for free ?
that's above and beyond..
if they were needy.. you could share.. but this is not sharing.. they don't sound needy
your parents are your parents... you owe them love.. but if they can afford to hire the work, why are you doing it ?.. find some other way of sharing..
i would expect if the tables were turned,your parents would help you remodel your home ?
i know i will be helping my daughter and her husband, but i wouldn't expect the reverse.. i think the older generation helps the younger..
very convoluted , these family relationships, no ?
no family of my own...i love the building process, so it gives me a chance to build up my skills. i would think they would cut me a little slack.
in that case... your parents are a substitute for the rest of us who have wives with "honey-do" lists of all the things we haven't finished on our own homes..
so , shut up, quit your whining, and get 'er done.......
it's a good OJT for when you do have a family of your own....
oh, and welcome to the club...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
hehe... thanks.
Run over there and give him a big, bone crushing hug and thank him for being so understanding and praise him for getting someone to help him finish up his new house in your absence.
Add a wet kiss on the lips and find a horses head to put under the sheets. (G,D&R)
> Add a wet kiss on the lips and find a horses head to put under the sheets. (G,D&R)subtle. i like it. ;-)
Well ya, happens all the time.
and yer right. Sometimes it's time for a drink.
But it's your parents. If it weren't for them you wouldn't be here. Just call it catch up if possible, for the costs 'n time 'n love raising you since a pup and go on down the road.
be you can pick yer friends but you can't pick yer family.
Good to see ya back.
Tim
ya rightNo one will provoke me with impunity
holy crap batman, where'd you come from?
your situation once again proves the old adage "no good deed goes unpunished"
No way I do that for free! A couple hours work, maybe a full day, maybe even a weekend if I really like the person, but thats where I draw the line. I make a very clear line too. I have no problem helping someone out but if you start cutting into my schedule on a weekly basis I will ask to get compensated, and you must make sure the details are clear before you start the work.
My question is why would they pay someone else instead of givin you the money?
Matt
my current work schedule doesn't allow for me to devote much time to the project (paid or not)
You didn't say, but I assume they paid for all the materials.
If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't feel bad about having someone else finish the work. Now you don't have to dread doing it. And when your parents cut the check, maybe they will realize what a good deal you gave them.
If they bitch about it again, I would say that you enjoyed doing the work, helping them out, honing your skills, but please don't ever bring it up again.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
my current work schedule doesn't allow for me to devote much time to the project (paid or not)
Michael, you seem to want your cake and want to eat it too.
Your complaining that your parents are going to hire someone to finish the work, then you state that you don't have time to finish it. My first instinct is to say that you will complain no matter what happens.
I would be ecstatic that my parents were going to hire the work out and not expect me to finish it, especially if I was too busy for it.
Dont' fret about losing that little bit of free work. I'm sure when you have more time to do more free work, you'll be able to find takers. If your folks place is complely done, just pass out flyers in your neighborhood and I'm sure you'll soon have all the free work that your heart desires!
Sheesh!
blue
>>>Till this day they harass me for not finishing the jobs, and how they should just hire a "real" contractor to finish the work...
Maybe they're right. You've got a life, and a job, and it sounds like the scope of work is way beyond what would normally be considered as 'helping family'. I would suggest sticking to the minor stuff and let them hire contractors for the big jobs.
Scott.
You are a wonderful Son, but you know they are going to hire a contractor who will spend a great deal of time pointing out flaws in your work. Not only will they charge extra for needless repairs, it will serve as an excellent excuse for delays.
"I could have been finished last week, but if you remember, we had to fix your Son's work."
Better get another bottle.
>> You are a wonderful Son, but you know they are going to hire a contractor who will spend a great deal of time pointing out flaws in your work. << When I did work for homeowners I was always very careful about what I said about other people's work - kind of a professional conduct thing... Especially knowing that I could be insulting a family member or even the person I was talking to who may have actually DIYed it...
i know that was a swing below the belt, i'm sure i do far better work than many professionals. the kitchen i've built has become a model in the neighborhood for all the neighbors to view before they upgrade theirs...
BTW, I meant to congratulate you. I'd say you've gone 'above and beyond', but there has to be a limit to that. When helping your folks stops being fun it's time to reevaluate the situation. I think your efforts would be better spent organizing subtrades instead of doing the work yourself.
Take care.
Scott.
A relationship is more than just whether people are related by blood. The whole relationship is created with input from all parties. It sounds like this relationship has become unbalanced and needs you to say and do some stuff to put things back on an even keel. There comes a point in many families where the kids have to explain the facts of life to their parents.
My wife allowed her parents to dominate her for many years, they didn't even realise they were doing it, it was just natural to them and a continuation of her childhood. Eventually she saw the light and then there was a bit of a difficult period until things became balanced again and it became a more normal relationship
John
this sound like a job for a Home Depot contractor2+3=7
I have had the opposite experience working for my family for pay and for free. It has always been a positive experience which has strengthened the family ties. If I am getting paid I treat it as a regular job complete with an estimate. I make sure that the job is completely finished before I get the final check the same as a regular job. If I am working for free, I do what I want to do with no expectation beyond that. They are encouraged to hire out anything that they want. They are responsible for the job, not me.
It sounds to me that you are overly involved. Let them take charge of the work. Feel good about what you have done. They are probably doing you a big favor by hiring someone to finish up. It doesn't reflect poorly on you at all and doesn't mean that they don't appreciate all you have done. You can choose to feel good about it or you can choose to feel bitter but that is your choice and has little to do with the job or your parents.
had the opposite experience
Well said.
I travel 2000 miles a few times a year to do fix it stuff for Mom (mid 80s) after Pop died. He taught me to use tools, etc after all. Beginning of this month spent 4 days there, refinished kitchen table top, added some insulation, put up storm windows, installed heat pump, etc.
The time spent is irreplaceable, should have gone back more often before Pop died.
It's time to grab dear ol' dad aside for a chat. Remind him that YOU will be making the decision of what old age home he will be finishing out his days, and if he gets a ugly old hag or a guy to give him his baths..... or some hotties. Pick your battles old man or I'll see to it they don't change your diaper for days....
I built a home for my parents in 95'....I know EVERYTHING about working with family.
I got married in 1981 at age 25. During the 10 years of my marriage I helped my father in law take care of their house for little or no pay.When we would stay with them on the weekend I would try to do 1-2 small projects.Over those years my father in law became one of my best friends (different story for my mother in law) and I learned a lot from him. He was the manager of an insurance agency.My experience has been you learn a lot about another person by working through projects with them, making decisions together, etc.Most people greatly appreciate what we do. I spent last saturday afternoon installing a nice light in the kitchen for a relative.One final thing, some people, for whatever reason, are unable to say two words (Thank You).
try adjusting your perspective. look at this from their shoes. they may feel as though you are overburdened and they feel guilty pressuring you to finish the job. this decision may be more a circumstance of love rather than spite. they don't want to see you burn out. to them a few grand spent to finish the job is better than watching their son implode from the stress of your IT career and finishing these projects.
I guess the question is what were their (and your) expectations at the beginning, and did they change along the way.
If they were willing & able to pay to have the work done, and want to get it finished, it's probably very frustrating for them to lose control of the situation to you.
Face it - they just want it DONE, and you've admitted you don't have much time to commit to it. They feel stuck.
I come from a family of do-it-yourselfers, and have seen this with things my mother wanted done by either my father or I. She'll say that she'd like something done, and ask if she should find someone to do it. We, not wanting to pay someone to do something we could do ourselves, tell her no, we'll get to it pretty soon. Well, pretty soon can be a long time, so frustrations develop. They've finally come to the understanding that he won't work on her car (he prefers working on the heavy equipment), so she has that done. She also sometimes hires someone to do some handyman type stuff around the house.
It all boils down to realistic expectations and communication - something most of us aren't that good at.
Don
>>today my dad tells me "i'm going to hire someone to finish the work you started..." I couldn't believe he was serious, but he was. I blew up, and well thats that. its going to eat me up inside knowing someone else is finishing up the work, but i have to tend to my life sometimes...
Looks like the nicest thing he's done so far.
Betcha he sings a different tune after getting some quotes, before he even hires!
Then you can start singing, humming or whistling "You Don't Miss Your Water 'Til Your Well Runs Dry" whenever you're around your folks
Byrds did it: http://tinyurl.com/atp2n (Betcha Otis Redding's is good too....)
In the beginning you really [worked your butt off for]
lovedmeBut I was blind and I could not see
But when you left me, oh, how I cried
You don't miss your water till your well runs dry
You don't miss your water till your well runs dry
But I really like the (pretty obscure) Emerson's Old Timey Custard Suckin' Band" version:
View Image
That's a tough one...
One thought: your parents are irreplaceable. Mine are gone now and I'd pay $1000 for 5 minutes...
As to your specific situation, how about this: If there are a few very minor things that need to be done to finish a specific task, go do them: ie - you mentioned the toekick in the kitchen - would that finish off the kitchen?
While doing that small amount of work you might want to gently explain that you have a life, job, etc and that your work schedule, etc, precludes a second job....
Then let them go ahead and hire someone. When they start paying 1000s of $ to have someone do "what our good some Michael did in a week" they will start to realize the value of what you have already given them.
Dr Phil here ..
sounds like your not going to teach an old dog a new trick .. wether you realize it or not you and your folks have conditioned each other to perform the roles you currently rebell against .. no matter what you do they are going to resent you for not wanting to do everything for them .. it's a no win situation .. you have to start saying no, and not just start, but keep saying no ..
My Mom needed a whole lot of tile work in a house she bought in Florida a few years ago. I loaded up a bag of tile tools and went down there.
Did all her tile work. She paid me $500 (I paid the airfare and stopped what I was doing here). She gave me what she could and I gave her what I could. Thats what it should be all about when people care about one another. Your parents sound like people that probably give "everyone" a hard time. Sounds to me like theres a whole other story youre not telling us.
Be ungrateful people
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
michael----
in general---avoid it at all costs,
Here's why---------
occasionally cutting the grass or putting up the screens/storm windows is one thing----that's the civility you would extend to any elderly neighbor in certain circumstances---------
but for your parents to expect you to remodel their house-----nah, I don't think so.
Assuming you are an independent adult---and mom and dad didn't each work three jobs to put you through medical school---------- they don't owe you anything----and you don't owe them anything either.
anything you WANT to do for them is a bonus----but not an obligation. don't let them guilt you---you have already gone above and beyond.
your mistake????---doing to much at once.
start one project and COMPLETE it before beginning the next.
best wishes, Stephen
BTW---- when I do things for my kids it's because I believe it's my responsibility as a parent to develope independent prosperous adults----NOT because I expect them to pay me back in the future. I am horrified by even the idea that they might even THINK there was any obligation on their part. ALL the obligation is on ME---not my kids.
Your parents obviously don't love you anymore. Leave them . . . those ungrateful curs, and i'll adopt you. Then you can get started on work on my home. First the small room off the kitchen (we want a bathroom there), then refinish the attic into something usable, more storage in the basement, shelves in the garage . . . did i mention the new sidewalk and fence in the backyard? We'll welcome you with open arms! Take your time, there's no rush . . . son. ;)
Have noticed (another possible scenario) that some people don't take well to construction, period. People that normally are easy to get along with become impossible and just want it all over with. Had a situation like that with the E.D. of our group when we moved offices 1 1/2 years ago. Built the shelves, counters, walls . . . all unique stuff, turned out really well, but went through a couple of face-to-face screaming matches during the process. Things have returned to normal and he's very complimentary of all the work now, but not sure i'd do it again.
Dad,you are so right... my family so can't handle construction. whats invisible to me, is this monstrosity of epic proportions to them.
When you post here you have to get ready for anything becuse you opened the bidding afterall. <G>
In good spirit you need to sit back and relax a minute . You are not tasting your beer and thats bad. Im sure you are a good son and have went well beyound whats expected. They just did you a favor and after all they want their house done as most people do. I think hiring someone is taking the load off you . They probably feel bad as it is and then you add to it and blow up.
Everyone feels differently on this subject as you have found out .
Theres a little deal of inheitence too you are not figguring in along with helping the people who raised you. Who do you think that house is going to be left to?
Ive got a son and daughter . The son wont help me at all and never would . Hes still being helped and hes 28 yrs old. Nuff said. Daughter is almost the same at least she blesses us with visits but wont do anything or offer to help. She normally cleans up her messes which puts her above the son. Both were helped with an education[advanced] and a house or two not to mention cars. Ive done 2 remodels and quite a bit of work for them at different times. I bought one house in an auction and paid for it then redid it . Ive never even had my yard raked for me or grass cut .
I have a grandson I raise and every evening he asks me if I need somthing to drink and the list goes on. He just read a writing at school , Papaw is my hero. He works with me all the time and we play together all the time . If he cant go with me , I dont go most of the time . He alone will inherit what ever I get built. Thats my decision and it will stand.
I hope you got somthing from that.
Tim
how do you guys deal with family,
Poorly (in more than one sense of the word) <g>.
and should it just be avoided at all costs??
As a business model, without a doubt, Yes.
As a family member, it may be unavoidable.
As a matter of practice, it can help no end if it's actually barter--where the family memeber gives you something for free (or at a loss) too.
I blew up, and well thats that. its going to eat me up inside knowing someone else is finishing up the work, but i have to tend to my life sometimes...
Ouch.
You could take a rather mercenary view that you just improved your eventual inheritance--so the labor is not "wasted" (it's a deferred 'future' value).
This is a good example of why working for family can be bad. And really, you didn't work, you labored without compensation.
Perhaps too simple a solution, but.... why not just talk to your mom and dad and explain that you enjoy and want to help them, but you also have to work to support yourself. Let them know politely that they hurt your feelings with their comments. Perhap explain just how much money you've saved them with your efforts. Sometimes we just don't understand how our words sound to the person on the other side! My wife has really taught me a lot about speaking up (to her) when she says something that hurts my feelings. 9 times out of 10, that wasn't her intention, and we resolve it immedietely with no hurt feelings. People can't stop hurting your feelings if you don't tell them they are hurting your feelings...
Michael,
I became a carpenter because my father was one. I started out in the family business after school and weekends. As things changed and my father sold his business I eventually started my own.
My father is my hero for so many reason I couldn't list them all here but we don't have much in common. Never have.
As our careers took different paths i noticed that he always had some project he needed help with. I spent a lot of my free time working with my dad on his house or my sisters. We have different skill sest beyond the fact that we both love to frame and he always seemed to need me for something.
A few years ago after I returned to the Army I started to resent all the time I was spending away from my family and I suspect I might have given him the brush off a few times. I'm only two hours away now but I just became to busy for his projects.
It took me a while to figure out that all he really wanted was to spend time together. He was trying to meet on the only common ground we have.
You said in a previous post that the Kitchen you installed was the Model of the Neighborhood. Maybe dad is proud of your work. Maybe dad just wants you around and doesn't realize your needs? Maybe he thinks you are enjoying the whole thing and he's doing it for you. Maybe dad is just a cheap tool who wants something for free and doesn't give a damn about you.
I don't know which it is But I suspect I would sit down and tell dad who I felt and get things out in the open. You may feel better or you may find out that dad real is a Pi$$flap but at least you'll know.
My dad has been in and out of the Hospital for the last 10 months.Right now it doesn't look good. He's used up most of his options and it's not getting any better. I would drive every nail on every project he could think of if it would buy him just one more day.
Talk to him and let him know how you feel and if he really is a tool, screw him, but don't decide just yet.
That's a good reply Robert.
There have been many good replies.
I gave mine somewhat tongue in cheek. My serious side says to make yourself available to your family and friends because they deserve your quality services too. Just because they are related doesn't mean you should automatically shut them out.
I have always given my family members a "courtesy discount" of 10%. I give them an honest estimate, then discount it 10%. Sometimes they save a couple of hundred, sometimes they spend a couple hundred more than they would have if they used a different contractor.
Charging real dollars for a real project compels me to treat it like any other booked work. I go in, do the work and finish up. They don't deserve any better or any worse. i work the same for them as I do for a millionaire homeowner. The only person I do less for is myself. I have far lower standards for myself than for others.
I have always offered to do things for mom and dad free. They did let me build them a garage when I was an apprentice. I wanted to do a "big" project for practice. I had my carpenter book out on the sawhorses, mimicing the picture to "step off" the rafters. I was proud of my first garage, and they were proud that I had built them such a beautiful garage after living a lifetime without one.
Other times my mom insisted on paying me a fair price for other remodeling. She wouldn't think of asking me to involve myself in a major remod without compensation. She is a lady that lived through the depression, lost everything in a fire, lived in a tent in Detroit with her family for a summer and knows what it's like to wonder where the next meal is. She knows hard times and still saves simple things like pieces of string, or the backs of advertisement to write notes on. Of course we look out for each other. Without my free labor, she couldn't have afforded that fine garage. Without her paying for my labor when she finished her basement, I couldn't have fed my family that month. Like I said, we watch out for one another.
Robert, you are right about honestly and openly talking this thing through with the parents. Sometimes the parents dont know how involved a project is. I had a mother-in-law that thought I was on Earth to do her bidding and it didn't stop till I simply started saying no. No. Learn that word when your being taken advantage of, or when the scope of the project is beyond your skills or time. No. It's a simple word, but it's very important to know when and how to use it.
Everyone of us has to learn to balance our time. We don't have unlimited time to work or for our immediate family or for our extended family. If we don't learn to balance things, we burn out.
I've burned out in my career. It wasn't fun. I won't do it again.
blue
Funny enough, I've got the opposite problem. I can't get my father-in-law to quit helping me. Bless him, he's a handy guy and all that, but with wife and kids and job sometimes the closest thing I get to a quiet minute is framing up closets or pulling wire. He gets in the middle of that quiet minute, but there's no way to tell him to get scarce without being a jerk about it. Still, I'd rather have my problem than yours. Be proud of what you've gotten done for your folks and let their contractors finish it. And remember this next time they ask you to do something for them.
Everybody has a story, I guess, but mine is about not taking your parents continued existence for granted. Mine have lived for 30+ years on a hobby farm up on a ridge after he left the Air Force, and my Mom has talked for years about coming down to the town. Always postponed. Now he's 87 and she's 77, and she has failed kidneys and ovarian cancer. I don't think she has a year, much less six months. He's somewhat dependent upon her and probably couldn't maintain it alone up on the ridge. They're buying a house down here now (should have done it years ago, but they're the boss), and it's like my house down here -- 80 or so years old. It's been well kept, but I'm still going to be the go to guy for things that crop up, and I'll never hesitate a minute. The old man will be supervising, of course, since he thinks he taught me all I know (he did, most of it), and my mother, if she's still there, will be praising my work. But I won't gripe or hesitate a minute. I'm here because of them. I'm educated because of them. I'm a good hunter, a good father, a good husband, a veteran, a good fisher, and a good citizen because of them. I don't think I can give too much time to them at this stage of their lives knowing that I have so much time left in my own life while they have so little left in theirs. Every minute I spend at their house doing something my dad could have done twenty years ago is a minute I treasure, and I love the beer reward and the talk with them before I go back home. Don't ever be resentful about moments with your parents after you've left the nest. Count them as fleeting blessings.
Edited 11/17/2005 9:35 pm ET by BARMIL
Edited 11/17/2005 9:41 pm ET by BARMIL
Anything small, under a few hours, do gratis and be happy about it.
For large projects triple your normal estimate for costs. They are going to ask for more and your going to want to give it to them while doing masterpiece quality work. Time and material cost will skyrocket. Plan on it.
If they object to the cost you can explain that your not the cheapest contractor and it gives you a chance to go to plan 'B':
All things considered it is often best to recommend a worthy competitor to work for relatives. Sounds heartless but it can avoid the meltdowns that often comes when money, time, mixed emotions and familial loyalty all come together. More than once I have seen friends who tried to work for their family have real train wrecks as long submerged conflicts and unfulfilled emotional needs came to the surface under the stress of a major building project.