I am thinking about making more of an effort to add door installations to my business.
Some Background———As some of you might know—-I am primarily a roofing contractor. When I was starting out 15-20 years ago I would essentially do anything for a buck—-hang new doors in existing jambs, install prehungs, vinyl replacement windows, porch repairs, painting,roofing houses etc. Eventually I gravitated to focusing on roofing and roofing related carpentry( soffits,fascia,spouting, cornice returns,chimney repairs etc.)—–because it was most lucrative for the time expended. Door installations were always kind of tedious to me and annoying.I mostly avoided them—-but would go ahead and do the work for good customers that were really insistent. I generally do a few a year—and turn down quite a few others.
Recently however ,I did a few—and they have become kind of fun—-so I am looking at actively pursuing others as a sideline to my main focus —roofing.
Here is the problem—-I don’t know how to price the work for doors. with roofing—-I find that my pricing generally works out to at least $65/hour—and often in the $80-100/hour range .And when I sub OUT roofing projects—well the dailey take can seem almost criminal. I only work about 1000 hours a year ( 700 production,300 overhead)——-so I have plenty of free time to add some door installs.
what seems like a fair rate? Last door I cleared about $400 over and above materials—–but time expended was probably considerably more than what guys who consistently install doors would achieve. Old nasty Masonry building—-remove existing door,jambs, interior & exterior trim. Build new sub frame(R. O.) install thermatrue steel pre-hung,schlage lockset & deadbolt, simple interior and exterior trim—about 8 hours. I assume that is probably more than twice as long as what a guy who installs a lot of these would achieve.
Sooo I would appreciate any specific advice on what I should target my production rate at—and how to price.
BTW—I am 41 and on target to be pretty much retired in 7-8 years. I see door installation as something that will be pretty much a hobby for now—but that I can develope into a semi-retirement business a few years from now. ( A business that is clean,with comparatively no heavy lifting, and MOST important— largely keeps me outside.
sorry to ramble—-and thanks for any advice.
Stephen
Replies
Steve-
I think it's the same fundamental question that one asks with any task- what's your billing rate per hour, and how long is it going to take? Sounds like your billing rate on roofing is somewhere between $65-100/hr- I'd say you should use a rate in that range for doors as well.
The harder part is determining the hours it'll take to complete the task. The doors you mentioned in your post sound exceptionally ratty, so they're probably not a good example to use to base your estimated time on. I'd start with a "typical door"- remove existing door and frame, install same size prehung unit, case interior, install new locksets, and caulk exterior brickmould to adjacent surfaces. That becomes your base hourly estimate. Just as an example, I changed out my front and rear doors last year just as I listed above, and it took me +/- 2.5 hours each.
Then start adding line items for the oddball stuff- masonry openings, re-using existing frames, intricate interior molding, plaster walls, wrapping exterior trim in aluminum, siding patching, storm doors, etc.
Bob
no answers for you but some feedback / ruminations for you
in the macro world I should be in your class - $65 / hr plus ( routine $80 - $100 ) workin app 1000 hrs / yr and retiring in less than ten ( and a roofer ) you got your mojo workin! congratulations
you mentioned something about "not too heavy" ** hanging doors is about the only thing that makes me think of the hernias my father and brother have had
that latest door experience you had sounds like you ran the gamut : doors for me conjure images of rather long line item considerations ( many of those in the difficult to quantify aesthetic arena ) and something that in and of itself is expensive - material door cost a lot / all this provides for room for the installer to be paid substantially or pass on it
my inclination is you're being invited to replace doors for people because they respect your tradesman quotient and have confidence in your approach / a cold called doorman would be price pointed to death
within the third week of this class you would be telling me how I should be able to get 40% more for my installs - with that door open your client probably had Van Morrison on his record player and after you get $860 for the next install you can deliver his Astral Weeks CD as an afterthought bonus to your appreciated client
cheers John
John,
Regaurding heavy lifting----remember heavy is a relative term. Moving a pre-hung door around is heavy compared to running some shoemolding--------but compared to a typical work day of endlessly running 80-100# bundles or rolls of roofing up a 32 ft ladder---not so heavy.
One attractive factor in accepting more door installs is that ,to me at least, it appears to be a pretty big pain in the rear for customers to find someone who will actually do the work-----the customers don't seem to know where to turn.Factor in a fairly pricey and not particularly complicated product, the PITA factor, and the already built -in trust factor( We know Stephen---and look what a nice job he already did for us)-----It doesn't seem a difficult sell-------especially since the business is already there-----I have just been turning it down mostly.
also----I forgot to mention that the last door was the backdoor of an antique store---opening out onto an alley.I also had to make ,on site ,some jamb extensions and install.
Bob,I had already considered most of your suggestions-----but that 's what is causing my dilema. I already know historically I am going to work approx. 1000 hours a year. I have a firm grip on my actual overhead costs each year---and my actual hours worked------makeng my per hour overhead costs easy to factor.
the "problem "---that accepting the new door business will not appreciably add to my overhead. also-----it doesnt seem quite kosher to charge ---- based on say $80/hour----- x 8 hours a door-------when a more experienced guy might install the same door in 3 hours.
I am assuming that to properly install these doors----eventually my time expended will ---with experience---come down to the 3-4 hour mark. about what it takes me to do a really nice chimney flashing replacement on an older existing roof( 2 story,non-walkable).
So-----is it reasonable for me to charge total labor cost for the door job----approx. what I would charge for the same amount of time (4 hours) for the nice chimney job-----even if it takes me twice as long for the door.
In other words-----I can do the chimney very well in 4 hours for $400----I do the equivalent work on the door for $400 ,but due to the fact that I am not as experienced in door installs as I am in Chimney flashing it takes me twice as long. Am I being fair? Am I gouging the customer. Am I leaving to much money on the table?
Once again----I welcome any advice from experienced guys about this---
thanks,Stephen
when you step back from that door install are you proud of what you see - upon reflection do you have second thoughts about the quality ? did you have some stutter stops, starts maybe this one is worth $50/hr 3rd one $70/hr and by July you're smiling down the road at $100/hr
from your description of install I doubt that you can really cut out too much time
can you get all you will need on one trip to supply house - or do you get 40% more ( I'd probably still have to go back ) hopefully insuring that you can finish work without leaving site ** sounded like you did rough framing, jamb, extensions, care and replace all casings, molding, trim maybe filling, caulking, priming - door knocker on the ext., doorbell still operates, security peephole magnifies to the ext. and not interior? one of those could easily go from $400 - $2,000 workin and payin for the lockset and handle could go $400 plus
price gouging and kosher - that is part of your fabric
I'd say 3% of my jobs I make more than $60/hr more often than not if I say something is $9,000 and I make $60/hr w/ $2,000 on my side they'll get billed the $7,000 and not the $9,000 I don't have that fortune/problem very often. Now if it is my children's orthodontist the sky is the limit
reminds me of the time ( 1976 ish ) I've got a bundle of cedar shingles heading up a ladder to my 3rd story perch on a 14 / 12 pitch and my client attorney says to me ( from a dormer window ) his time & materials contractor me $15/hr "If you need any help with wills or other lawyerly advice just come on down to my office and we'll work out anything you need at $150 / hr " I think it was early afternoon on a Friday and I took out my frustrations / aggressions on my buddys on the basketball court after descending the ladder almost immediately
Stephen excuse my digressions I don't usually think of a roofer having much of a chance pleasing me aesthetically *** my brief lifespan on this site Piffen has blown that stereotype to kingdom come
your clients are choosing you - you probably can't say too much wrong - sky is the limit!
Thanks a lot for your imput John, I appreciate it .
Regaurding aesthetics----it's important to keep it in perspective. I doubt my work would please your level of knowledge-------
however------the houses I am describing working on are typically pre WWII------Circa 1920's actually.They were kind of the tract housing of their day----built as factory worker housing and are now owned by policemen,firemen,nurses,schoolteachers,insurance salesmen,accountants,city employees,etc. Most sell for under $150,000 and a lot for under $100,000.The doors being replaced are typically the original door on the house--and are currently falling apart. The R.O. will almost always be a bit cross legged and out of plumb,etc. And getting in the old door was probably a battle several times a day for the homeowner.
Sooooo, a new draft free ,freely swinging door with a smoothly operating lockset neatly installed is aesthetically pleasing to THEM. You ,however, as a highly experienced person might be able to point out some subtleties of margin,reveal, etc. that shouldn't be present in a new $400,000 house. It's a matter of perspective.
I will also say that on virtually every job I have EVER done I always spot something that I would do differently If I had a chance to do it over. I no longer learn something new everyday while roofing---but it's a rare WEEK when I don't learn something new! I imagine I will be learning MANY things new every day for quite some time when it comes to door installs.
BTW-----I don't doubt for one second ----that the skill level and aesthetics you are being paid for totally eclipses my own. In my usual work---a great deal of what I am being compensated for is the opportunity to fall to quadraplegia.Plus a track record of tearing off and replacing roofs without damaging the customers property in tight urban surroundings. So the RISK management factor weighs into my rates.
thanks again for your thoughts,Stephen
do not doubt for one minute I was challenging your abilities or aesthetics
I was only bringing that up for you to question whether your work met your measure / seems to me that is the criteria where your doubt / concerns hinge on pricing the doors
happy hanging John
maybe that first line of mine should say do not think for one minute.....
" I don't usually think of a roofer having much of a chance pleasing me aesthetically *** my brief lifespan on this site Piffen has blown that stereotype to kingdom come"
I'M INNOCENT!
I never laid a hand on your aesthetics
;)
steve, I see you are doing mostly basic prehungs but if you develope this as a specialty, you will be drawn into other more special ones. Some of the things that will cause you to spend more time on them-
signs of rot at threshold
taller doors - an eigh footer will have you sliding a bench ion and out all day
Pairs - more alignment issues
Walls out of plumb or non-typical thickness.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm an amateur, but have hung my share of doors. My concern would be that it's terribly hard to estimate how much time it's going to take for a particular door, especially in an older building. Even if you don't have to do repairs to the threshold area (and you almost always will for exterior doors), the openings are often not square and plumb, and a significant amount of fudging is often requred. This is especially true on an exterior door where getting a good seal around all edges is critical.
This isn't to say that you shouldn't go into the business -- I too find hanging a door somehow more rewarding that many other activities -- but it does say that you need to somehow build contingencies into your pricing structure.
Without reading the wholethread, here are a few thoughts, sorry if they are redundant.
First, the patience needed for doors can be a relaxation or it can unhinge you and make you want to bolt for the high peaks.
I can say this having made the transition. Roofing work is production focused. You get paid for the coverage.
Door work is far more craftsman focused. You need to be sure that you are mentally into it enough to stop and analyse a few things as you work to avoid problems. After awhile, it becomes automatic.
But in the meantime, if you are making say $35/hr on doors and thinking about how you could be knocking down $75 on a roof, you wilkl be getting yourdself too wound up to give the door customer your best and will grow to hate the door business. So be sure you price it right.
I don't get the iompression you will be bidding condo jobs and tryiong to set fifty or sixty doors in a day, but are trying to satisfy the individual caring HO. That is the way to go.
I want to suggest that you stay away from painting and finishing, because that keeps you going back several times over a few days. You want the business to run slam, bam, done, here's your bill. But when you do wood doors, you should have them finished oimmeditatly. As a matter of fact, I have had so many door customers want to do the painting/finishing themselves to savemoney go and ruin their wood doors by not doing it right or by not doing it soon enough, that I now refuse to do a wood door unless I can finish it as part of the job. I suggest you consider that, because any door failure is generally regarded as yours, because you touched it last. Keep in mind too that nationally, fifteen percent of manufactured wood doors will warp, so you may wqant to factor this into your markup, or do labor only and let them buy the door.
It is a craft you can bne proud of, a one man relaxing job, and a safer one than what you do now./ You see more grey whiskers on doors and more young bucks on roofs. It looks like the drip line of your carreer is openning a new door on your future.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
it doesnt matter what other guys are charging. you have enough good-will equity from your other business to name a price that you think is fair for the hours you think a particular job will take. I have been asked repeatedly to give an estimate that is competitive with a depot sub. I wont do it. I've spent too much time in the trade to sell myself short. If you dont like my price, go with the other guy. just dont call me to fix his mistakes!
most people appreciate craftsmanship before a good bargain. When given the choice, they will weed out the cheapskates for you. If you like to get $65 per hour for your services then so be it.
Thanks for the pointers everyone so far-
Piffen,
I am glad you mentioned patience------because I fully admidt that at age 31 I didn't really have the patience or interest in doing this more than a couple/3 times a year. That's why I have turned down SOOOOOO many of these over the years---too futzy.
but recently a friend needed a door installed-----I didn't really want to do it, and I didn't need the money------but after 3 months or so of lifting weights,running stairs, and laying on the couch reading books---I am quite frankly bored. So I went ahead and ordered the door for her and installed it-----and it turned out to be fun.( well as much fun as work has ever been for me,anyhow)--------- I now see it as a refreshing change of pace----it would be a vacation from roofing.
Frankly the only challenges left for me in roofing are mostly in the sales end of it( more about that in a bit)-----but the door sideline looks like an opportunity to learn a lot of new things ( new to me, anyhow)--and it looks like a good semi retirement business to slip sideways into over the next 7-8 years. So instead of turning down all but 2-3 doors a year----I think I will shoot for intentionally accepting 12-15 this year, and slowly start working it up from there.
Now---about roofing sales------I had a conversation a while ago in a roofing forum-------2 seperate threads. Most of the roofers didn't feel a 80% sales ratio was possible. They felt to close 80% would require leaving too much money on the table. Another roofer threw out the number $375/square for 4/12 single layer tear-offs and re-roofs ----wanted to know how feasible that was---the consensus was $375 wasn't practical.
I thought approaching both targets was consistently possible with the right method. I knew I get closer to 80% every year-----the more focused my target customer base becomes. I suspected I was closing in on the $375 figure as well----but I didn't know for sure as I don't generally figure out roofing prices as a per square cost. ( I price as a function of time) but when I figured out the per square price of the 4 roofing jobs I have sold for this spring I got $291,$292,$347 and $361 for an average price of almost $323. All are walkable,3 are 1 layer tear-offs and one is a 4/12 @2layer tear-off. This morning I closed on another---although very small it's just over $400/Square. In addition 3 of the first 4 get spouting at a nice price and the 4th gets a chimney repair that I will also do.( All 5 of these are referalls BTW.
Sorry to get so far off topic----but the reason I brought all the roofing sales stuff up---is that I have an inkling that the same sort of thing is possible with doors. I suspect that limiting my target customer base can make some things possible that wouldn't be imaginable with trying to pursue the general public. With the right pricing---doors could become over time VERY relaxing.
Thanks again for everyones' help and continuing suggestions.
Stephen-
It sounds like a good sideline to move into. I think that your equating chimney flashing with a door install is a good approach initially. You will need to update this price as your experience grows. Maybe you can average 4 hours for the complete door install but maybe you can only get it down to 6. Adjust your price accordingly.
Pricing in this business is really no different than in your roofing business. Understanding the market and your costs will lead you to the proper price and a profitable business. I am sure you will be successful if you pursue this.
Shellingm,
when reviewing exactly what I did on the last door I discovered 2 things which I think would have saved me considerable time.Inexperience in locating the height of the head Jamb in the sub frame cost me 20-30 minutes( sometimes 1/2 inch means a LOT eh?), and More effort in measuring jambs would allowed me to order the exact jambs I really needed---that blew about an hour of futzing. I figured it would be easier to fabricate odd jamb extensions on site-----I was anticipating having to taper the extensions----and it turned out I didn't need to.
so inexperience caused me some simple delays of about 1 hour 20 to 1 hour 30 minutes. 6 hours looks eventually feasible.
thank you.
Shazlett,
Would like to know what part of the USA, that you can score $375-$400 a sq for roofing? Is this 3-tab or the 30yr shingle? In the Denver area you would be lucky to get $160 a sq. for the same roof. Most will do it for $120 sq.
G80104,
I am in Akron ,Ohio.
to clarify------I have noticed over the last 4-5 years my sales come from predominately MY neighborhood. At least 50% of my work is within 2-3 minutes of my home------and most of the rest of my work some how relates back to my neighborhood( friends,family,co-workers etc. of customers back in my neighborhood.
So,---I sell at about a 66% sales ratio with my target customer base--------much ,------it's a much,much lower success rate to the general public----maybe 1 out of 4 ,or 1out of 3.
I have been tracking this and analyzing this for several years----the trend is definitely there.
i was born and raised here. Lived here 41 years. Except for 5 months living in a rented apartment in the neighborhood i have only lived in 2 houses. My parents house for 20 years or so---and then my own house for the next 20 or so.I play to a homefield advantage------My truck is seen here every day, my jobs are highly visible, my wife teaches at the local catholic school,My sons graduated from that school,my siblings and I graduated from that school.I have coached the local catholic teams AND the public teams, I roofed the new church------donated a nice 5 figure sum to it's construction and a mid 4 figure sum to the new gym.
Soooo it's like small town america.The city may have 200,000 plus with that many more in surrounding suburbs------but I increasingly concentrate on a small geographic area where my results come from. It's almost impossible for my wife and i to go to the grocery store or a gas station with out meeting some who's house I roofed, or whos children i coached ,or who's grandchildren my wife teaches,or who is in the church ladies guild with my mother for 50 years.....or who knows one of those people.------It's entirely self re-enforcing.
my typical customers are people who have lived in their home for years---and intend to STAY in their home for years.They may be retired-----but usually they will be a solid 2 income family---hard working,dependable,middleclass good jobs---but not alot of free time. There is a built in trust factor since I have been here so long and am visibly commited to the neighborhood.
also, my rates may SEEM high---but the total cost is not a great deal of money. house and garage typically run around 15-20 square.Soooo there is not an insurmountably huge spread between my price and lower priced competitors.
I didn't notice most of this untill 4-5 years ago. Once i discovered i could close 2 out of 3 of my sales in my own neighborhood I realized I had a huge advantage. I can meet a prospect at an appointed time. I can take the time to sit down and explain EXACTLY how I am gonna produce their job, why I am suggesting 2 courses of icegaurd to get well with in the plane of the wall instead of 1 cheaper course, exactly why I PERSONALLY flash the chimneys, Why I am suggesting W valley flashing, HOW I am gonna protect the siding and landscaping.
chances are my prospective customer has personally seen me working rooftop in his neighborhood many times. I have a big advantage here.
also----years ago SEARS didn't prevent me from doing fine here as a roofing contractor------i have little to fear from Lowes and Home Depot. in fact I believe Lowes and Home Depot's use of subcontractors will make my sales even easier. I am not selling my customers a commodity----I am selling them my personal and obviously qualified attention---something Home Depot simply can not sell.
in my area i have seen both the Handy Andy and Builders Square chains close up shop, i have seen Kmart close it's doors-----and yet here i am---fatter and happier than ever. Home Depot does not determine my customer base or the rates I can charge----we are selling 2 different things.
sorry to be so long winded. given all that background info i feel stepping slowly sideways into the door business part time will similar.My customers don't have the time or inclination to go to Home Depot to pick out a door and then wonder WHO will actually install it. they want to ask " Stephen---what do you suggest? What would you put in your own home?"
sounds like you've got the right idea. the minute you start to play on home depots field, you have to compromise quality to compete financially. I hate to say this because I know I am gonna get blasted by big box subs, but there is a reason those guys are are working twice as hard and making half the money. If we all sell out, they will be making half again.
first ... I been meaning to tell you I think this is a great idea.
After doors ... I'd even think about high end replacement windows.
Still a one and a half man job ... all work from inside ... even less heavy lifting.
So ya can't compete with a window-only crew and knock out a whole house in one day ... make it nice ... visit for a while. Actually .. with just one good helper ... a whole house fulla windows flies by pretty quick.
But back to the doors ... around here ... a handyman man will set an exterior for probably $100 and be happy with the days pay for a half day.
A door guy could charge upwards of $650 labor ... and be outta there quick.
Me ... I know I can do most any door in an easy half day ...
so that means 99.99% of all of them will get completely done by that afternoon ...
I charge $50/hr ... for "day length jobs" ... so that's $400.00
And I'm yet to schedule 4 "half day" jobs over the course of 2 days ...
Half days just don't happen enough to schedule for them ...
So my half day rate is a full day.
I'll usually throw on the screen door ... "for free" ... since I'm still on the whole day clock.
Screen door alone .. last time I did just a screen door .. was $150.
That was for a contractor I did lotsa other subbing work for ... hence the non-$400 charge.
For what it's worth .... my normal billing is figured at $45/hr or $360/day.
So if I get a door done in a half day ... a good time is had by all.
One bonus for you ... you probably got a dumpster sitting somewhere local to throw the door in. I have a Construction Junction ... used building reseller .. that'll take most any door that isn't completely shot ... get a tax deduction... and it's closer than the dump.
That's how the rest of that afternoon gets spent.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Jeff,
I'm fairly new to doorhanging - done a few pre-hung doors that's about it.
I have a customer who would like me to install several screen doors - replacing the ones that are there . They new ones are nice ones that will have to be fitted to the existing opening.
I know this is a little beyond this thread, but I would love to get a basic sequence for installing a nice wood screen door that is not pre-bored for its handle and that will have to fit in the same opening and I assume, use the same hinge placement as the old door.
I'll post this elsewhere if need be but since a lot of door guys were here I thought I'd give it a try...
Thanks,
Dave
Davey ..
repost in Const Tech and we'll get right to ya.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
On your roofing sales line, have you thought of doing some digital pictures of various flashings and other usual problem area to show your great attention to detail? I had a roofing salesman that did a pictorial essay which got me a new shake roof from my seller's insurance company in Kansas.
If you're in a Home Depot market expect to compete. Unlike needing a roof, needing a door is a different market.
Storm door $100.00
Entry door $200.00
Slider $390.00
Good luck.
Steve...........Around here you have a lot of competition..........and a lot of these guys are working really cheap.
I charge by the day if there is tearout and stuff.....I guess how many days x 250.00. Materials are extra. Homeowner buys and has the door on site if it's just a simple door replacement.
I can replace a door in about 2-3 hours if I take my time.........so I charge half a day.
last door only job we did... i charged $385 before we put the interior casing on... and the owner supplied the door..
we would have installed the storm door at the same time.. but the owner bought the wrong size..
we went back and installed the storm door (owner supplied ) , finished the trim and billed another $295..
so $680 including $30 of material we supplied..
we have a very happy customer and we will get more work from themMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
LOL
can you save this post for the next guy who wants to know how much he can "save" by buying his own materials?
Makes my day!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
my impression was they didn't do it to save money... the daughter bought her mom a door.. and a storm door.... or HD sold her a door and a storm door.. then they had to get it installed.. so naturally i got the call..
i think a lot of people have no idea how to solicit work on their house
hey.. this was the house with the talking parrot with the fabulous vocabulary and the 5 song repertoire...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
so $680 including $30 of material we supplied..
Man........I wish.........In this county every other guy that has lost his job picked up a hammer. ...........
.but then again I'm cheap...least that what all the girls used to tell me........................So whats wrong with a first date dinner to Subway?There are fast carpenters who care..... there are slow carpenters who care more.....there are half fast carpenters who could care less......
same thing happened here, jj.... the big one was in the first reagan union busting ... after he got patco.... the companies around here were encouraged and started in on the machinists at Brown & Sharpe....
luckily we still had a big build-up in nuke subs to suck up some of the displaced workers...
my read right now... everyone is in business for themselves, so it's hard to put together crews , either experienced or inexperienced, that can handle the load...
half the battle is having the ability to say... yes !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
same thing happened here, jj....
Saw a segment on TV the other day about creating re-training programs for the displaced.............guess what's at the top of the retraining list........construction.
I can see it now.........SUV's bearing down the road with decking strapped to the top................a guy driving slowly to his jobsite reading off the training manual by his side..............trying to memorize what a stud........joist........rafter is for.There are fast carpenters who care..... there are slow carpenters who care more.....there are half fast carpenters who could care less......
So far------ I would like to thank everybody for their advice.
the numbers posted by Mike,Dogboy and Jeff are especially helpfull to me----I really,REALLY appreciate it guys.
BTW Jeff-----I do consider the window possibility also. My interpretation of the market for windows might be off-base though.Replacement windows seem to be price driven. The replacement window game seems very similar to the seamless gutter market----highly cut throat. Even worse---windows seem to be more of a discretionary purchase( high end windows even more so)----but a door that you have to battle every day to get in and out of will irritate a prospect right into replacing it out of frustration.
currently, I actually do windows about as often as I do doors----a couple times a year.another problem with windows is that they require me to spend more time inside the house---and i strongly prefer to remain outside.but as I age---who knows. Let me get used to lurking in doorways for a few years and maybe coming into the customers house won't seem so awfull to me.
I am still open to any and all advice on this matter folks,
Thanks again Stephen
This might not fit in. Might be to slow and tedious job.
"My interpretation of the market for windows might be off-base though.Replacement windows seem to be price driven."
Instead of window replacement, what about window restoration and storm installs.
Did you see the article in the current FHB about restoring windows?
You'll probably be replacing mnore windows and doors than me by this time next year.
I have the same theory ... only take the profitable windows and doors.
I'd lose my butt trying to compete with a window-only company ...
So i don't pitch that I do windows ... the jobs I get are usually from referals ... or when it's not a slam-bang job for the regular window guys. Anything other than pull them out .. put them in ... they usually way over price .. so the "special conditions".
Sometimes their "special conditions" can be a house that's over 40 or 50 yrs.
Going to a window replacement close tonight .... think I got the job because there's a bit more involved than pop the old one .... water damage from a poorly built higher end tract house. Now house wrap ... no J for the aluminim siding ... around the round top window. Definitely have a bit of framing and sheathing to replace ...
Then address the issues of the other poorly installed windows on that face of the house.
It's all coming off and geting done right. A half day window replacement turned into a wholw week remodel.
No big deal at all for me ... but probably would drive a window only guy nuts.
Usually they get the whole houses ... I get a coupla problem windows here and there ... or ... I'll do the windows as part of a larger remodeling project.
I'll bet after the doors are starting the hang themselves on your roofing jobs ...yopu'll get lots Q as to windows. Start looking into the high end replacements now ... do your homework early. Start trying to figure which installs are best from the interior ... which are better from the exterior ... which work best with replacements ... when new const used as a replacement is the ideal.(hardest to measure and order ... great when it all works out).
Last side of a house I did was for my sister in law ... actually for the father in law .. since he paid ... the guy that usually does his rentals wanted something like $150/per window/labor ...
5 windows ... and fairly easy 3/4 day ... $750. Not a bad day's work.
Went went down on a Sat ... he paid my helper $150 cash ... I got pizza for lunch.
I'd probably charge somewhere around $100/per for a turn key job .... includes leaning out the window and caulking from the inside.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I appreciate the input Jeff.
My plan is to simply let the customers come to ME
instead of aggressively pursueing THEM.
I expect it will take a number of years to step sideways into this---and it's a move I don't NEED to make in a hurry------but if I start preparing now I will be able to move when the time comes.
It took me years to get things pretty much where I wanted them in the roofing business-------so I have a LOT of research to do now on doors---and later windows------to reach the point where I can make equally informed suggestions to customers regaurding windows and doors.
Also---while I am thanking people----I would like to thank Jim Blodgett.I remember several of his posts from 4-5 years ago----that later made me re-evaluate how I was selling to prospective customers.since I am not a terribly bright guy it sometimes takes me months or years to chew something over before I get to the kernel of a good idea.( case in point---i was a registered Republican for YEARS before I realized how disasterous THAT was. LOL----sorry Jeff---I couldn't resist)
anyhow thanks again Jeff ----and everyone else----for the pointers.
As always I am always interested in anyone elses input on this topic.
Stephen
Have you cornered the Door business in Akron yet?
Jon Blakemore
funny you should ask ,Jon.
I had not come to this site for several months----( due to a computer that was largely unworkable because of spam,virus pop-up ads etc).
I stopped in on 5-31-04 for the first time in months and couldn't find this thread. I stopped in today and found your question.
Soooooo, here is the up date.
things are progressing nicely in my door hanging business. remember ---I plan to step sideways out of my roofing business in to doorhanging etc. of the course of the next couple 3 years. I currently have 3 doors ordered I am waiting for. Last week I spent 2 days on some door surround repairs---replacing brick mold, casing ,jambs blah blah blah. Even had to use a paint brush!!!!.
Last week I replaced a couple hundred lineal feet of redwood claps up the side of a dormer and down the wall along a chimney-----replacing some studs and wall sheathing along the way.
I am enjoying all this immensely and learning A LOT----new materials for me,new tools, new sales approaches-----
for instance---the 2 days I spent this week on a door surround( 2 fixed,1 swinging, with a row of windows above.)---I should have taken pictures midway to show FUTURE customers the nightmare of rot within.By tweaking my sales approach----I now realize I could have turned a sale of UNDER $1000 in to a sale of around $4000 by selling a total replacement.
when I went into roofing maybe 15-20 years ago----I spent the first few years doing mostly repairs. Later I realized---for me that was the best way----- because it forced me to learn from other peoples mistakes. Later ----when completely replacing entire roofs----I was able to apply what I had learned from roof repairs and deliver a better product. I am at that same phase in door hanging and carpentry repairs----learning from other peoples mistakes.
now I want to apply what I learned from the business side of roofing to the newarea of my business.( for instance don't do an inexpensive repair on a 30 year old roof-----If you can sell them a completely new $7000 roof.)
for the next few years I will be using my roofing earnings to subsidise my sideways step into doors etc. billing rates for carpentry are much less that what I can get for roofing.
As far as cornering the window and door market--------funny you should ask. A While ago I pointed out to my wife that----since our sons were in high school----my tuition paying days were drawing to a close------and when that happened I planned to go into semi-retirement----just hanging doors etc. ( I am 41)
Well the wife went ballistic----( "Wadda ya mean retirement? I am gonna be teaching school untill I am 60" she complained. I explained how hanging doors 2-3 days a week pays more than she earns teaching all week----and asked her if she really wanted me roofing at age 58.---well---she saw my point---but grumbled" I would feel better If you said you were gonna be the window and door tycoon of Akron"
I pointed out that I have no interest in being the window and door tycoon-------I just wanna hang a few doors each week,work on my own projects,not depend on unreliable labor---and not wake up with weatherman inspired nightmares.you have NO freakin idea how nice it is NOT to live and die by the weather reports.
BTW----I am in the process of adjusting my advertising to reflect my new venture.
who knows---maybe if THAT works I will be able to semi retire Next year. wouldn't that be cool?
Stephen,
I hope your increase in free time will allow you to spend more time at BT. I have enjoyed your insight and experience over the years.
I hope your venture is successful and near to the ground.
Jon Blakemore
"billing rates for carpentry are much less that what I can get for roofing."
Why so?
Not that I doubt ya ... but I found that interresting. I'd guess it should be the other way around .... unless ... for the time being ... you're taking a real world approace and including your learning curve into the numbers.
Or ... is it because production is that much faster on a roof.
Or ... maybe bacause the roofs are a bigger project numberwise ...
while you can only charge so much for a single door?
Just curious.
I'm thinking a good door hanger/repairer should be able to pocket more change than a good roofer ...
but since I've not focused on either ... could be wrong here.
What ya figuring out there?
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Jeff,
I don't know how to explain this with out probably pissing someone off----and that certainly isn't my intention----but here goes........
I think earlier you mentioned being able to bill your carpentry services at around $40---$45/hour---------so that works out to the $300-$400 per day.I have found that to be perfectly attainable. ( I assume however that we don't tell the customer what the rate calculation is----we simply give them the total price. that $45/hour is for our companies internal factoring.
however when we get to roofing I find that I am ALWAYS able to "charge" at a rate that works out to at least $65/hour---and generally up in the $80-100/hour range. this would be for small jobs done by myself personally with my own 2 little hands. say--tearing off and re-roofing a 2 car garage,a layover instalation on a ranch style house,re-flashing a chimney--etc. typical 1 man jobs.
On a larger job where I will be responsible for a full crew----I will generally make $1000 or more each day.
So----for me----roofing clearly generates the most amount of money in the least amount of time--------thats why I began to specialize in it years ago( originally I did a much larger variety of work)----but roofing ( for me)also generates the highest stress level---worrying about the weather,physical exertion, risk factors, and of course dealing with the typical roofers mind set.
I think you are correct in assuming that the average carpenter is a more highly skilled worker than the average roofer. That,however doesn't have direct bearing on what each can bill for. The roofer is also billing for risk of quadraplegia!----and the carpenter is discounting his services because the work is more "pleasant"
the last couple of weeks I did several different carpentry jobs---and I was amazed how pleasant and stress free my life was without the looming worry of weather.really,really amazed.
After eading your posts for a while ...
that's pretty much what I expected.
I knew ya turned a pretty good buck at being very efficiant at roofing.
Still amazes me .... most smaller roofers around here go broke quick ....
Me ... I'd be busting out as many roofs as I could before my body was shot!
I'm guessing it's not all pure luck though ....
bet most of your roofing competitors aren't close to making what you are ...
so I doubt you'll find a way to turn door hanging into a profitable biz.
You might be pissing someone off .... but it'd never be me ....
I'd rather learn from those that can turn a buck that envy them.
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Jeff,
I assume that with a bit more experience my effective hourly rate will bump ITSELF up to where I want it. If I can get $400/door and learn to get it installed well before lunch----instead of taking most of the day futzing around---then my hourly rate will be where I want it.
that's the problem with teaching yourself something----you are constantly re-inventing the wheel.
but taking my time and slowly thinking things through, taking notes at the end of the day, PLUS buying and then reading,re-reading and re-reading many times again Gary Katz's door hanging book-----I have things coming around slowly. I am learning how simple little mistakes early in the process will Eff with me later in the day---and learning not to make those simple little mistakes.
plus---i am heading out this weekend to by a power planer to bevel those edges---new toys!!!!!
$400/door shouldn't be out of the question.
having a hardware store on wheels would help the 1/2 day install too.
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00004U0SZ/102-7572332-7788949?%5Fencoding=UTF8&coliid=I3G1LEFX7NEM32&colid=1L0WLJNGXBMHB
Expensive, but one of the best power hand planes I've used.
I'm wondering exactly what the scope in terms of work performed is for that 400.00 door. Does it include any masonry repairs I've sometimes done when installing a door in a brick opening? Does it include adding extension jams? Does it include hauling away the old door? Just wondering what the "standard" install includes and what's extra...
Thanks,
Dave
> It's all coming off and geting done right. A half day window replacement turned into a wholw week remodel.
> No big deal at all for me ... but probably would drive a window only guy nuts.
No, they'd just do the half-day job. And bill for a whole week.
I just wanted to say you seem to already know what you need to make you just need to get a little faster on the type of door installation. * hours seems to me to be a little to long . but that comes from doing a few and getting a good flow with setting up having the right tools and so on.
lets say you need to make between 4 and 8 hundred dollars per day.400. if your charging 50.00 per hr 800.00 if your charging 100.00 per hr , Ive seen door and window co. charge 1200.00 to replace a front exterior door {door cost about 200.00 } when I was charging 200.00 labor for the same door. Now I like to charge around 600.00 to 700.00 labor and I think thats fair as after ive set up and done the install and packed up even if it only took 3 to 5 hrs to do the actual work by the time im done and out of there its to late to go do much for the rest of the day . so I need to make a days labor or at least enough for it to be worth it. so most of the time doors are by the job for me.
I know there are variables to this kind of job ,but im only talking about what works for me , who knows it might work for somone else.
dogboy
lets say you need to make between 4 and 8 hundred dollars per day
Ok............just for the record. I'm semi retired from doing this sort of thing........and I usually do it to help out an old lady or something..................but are these actually 'real world figures' you guys are tossing around.............or wishful thinking?
We're talking about hanging a 36" door in a regular house..........average two hour job......including a coffee break............................
I judge my work/time by the difficulty involved (mentally and physically)..but a door? Unless I made it myself (which I've done) I would have a hard time handing an old lady a bill that was higher than the original house.There are fast carpenters who care..... there are slow carpenters who care more.....there are half fast carpenters who could care less......