Door slabs for 6’x8′ double pocket door
Hi – new to Breaktime, first time posting, long time FHB reader, 4 yrs in business. Hope this isn’t a duplicate topic, but I did search the archives, and most of the pocket door questions deal with framing and hardware, not the slabs themselves.
Here’s my issue: I’m trying to finish up a small remodel job where the client had me add a 6’w x 8’h double pocket door in a basement. Since I wanted light switches in close range of the opening and I wanted a reasonably stiff wall, I used two 3′ (6′ incl. pocket) Johnson kits and added a 5/4 flat stud sandwiched on both sides of the wall for a net 5.5″ frame thickness. Got drywall installed, time for trim. Door slabs are delivered, smooth faced, solid-core arch-top paneled 3/0x8/0 doors from Masonite. They’ve gone through at least three links on the supply chain (Masonite – wholesaler – my lumberyard) before coming to me.
Upon initial installation, one door looks pretty flat (1/8″ or less bow), the other has about 1/4″ or more bow to it. I have my trim carpenters reverse the “bad” slab to try to line up the bows on the two doors to minimize the effect. Still looks like crud (it’s a pretty high-end home), so I tell the client I’m going to leave it hanging like this over the weekend and reorder one slab. This is Friday.
By Tuesday(?), the new slab comes, and we go to replace the bowed one. However, the one that was initially worse now looks absolutely perfect, and the other one is binding in its slot with over 1/4″ of bow in it. We removed it, hung replacement #1, which was also off by a bit and looked like crud where the two slabs meet.
Long story short, I’ve almost lost track, but I think I’m now up to my third REPLACEMENT (fourth slab) on that side, and they all arrive with nearly 1/4″ of bow in them, even when the supplier (wholesaler) says it was dead flat or under 1/8″ when it left their warehouse. Mfr’s rep says they have a tolerance of 1/4″ so I really can’t expect any better than this. Client – and I – are not happy with what we have, but supplier can’t (read: won’t) keep sending out one after another, and won’t let me come to their warehouse to hand-pick one.
One of the first slabs I removed was then leaned against a wall outside, bow-side up, at a good angle and didn’t change a bit over a week’s time and all kinds of weather. I’m inclined to believe that with the slowdown in construction, some of these slabs are sitting in the warehouse for too long, taking a set that wouldn’t be there in a hotter market where inventory is turning over quickly.
Now, my questions:
1. How much tolerance would you expect on an 8′ Masonite door?
2. Is there a way to *permanently* correct a bow such as this without looking horrible? (I’ve read tricks about putting it in the sun, laying it on the grass, etc. but I can’t imagine those are permanent solutions. Even setting it on sawhorses with a weight in the middle doesn’t seem to be a permanent solution).
3. Is there a different product that I should look into? Masonite has a Crown Series MDF door, but my understanding is that these would also have the same 1/4″ tolerance.
I’m a little perplexed about the movement both original slabs showed in the first few days. I’ve left each successive one inside for several days before ordering the next to allow for humidity & temp acclimation. This issue has dragged on long enough and I need to find the right solution where I won’t be called back in another week or a month. I also want to handle this right because there’s a master bath remodel for the same client depending on it!
Any and all advice is appreciated!
-wte
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TomT226 | | #9I'm damn sure no expert, but the strength in steel is along it's widest dimension. Would you have enough material to screw the two pieces to?
If this is a 1-3/8" interior door, then you could get some 1-1/4" angle and relieve one edge 1/8" and screw it directly to the face and/or edge. Possibly be more rigid than strap. I think stainless comes in 1/4"X1-1/4 angle. If not, since this is a high-end app, it could be fabbed. A plasma cutter would make short work of the strike. You could sacrifice one door and see if it works in regular angle.
Hell, you could cap the entire face of both doors, and use regular angle on the insides.
Okay, mind is going. Wonder if 6061 aluminum channel would be stiff enough to pull it the warp out?
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Piffin | | #12"The "C" channel/astragal might be something to consider, but if the door's not flat to begin with, I'm not yet sure how that would help, but I'm chewing on an idea. "The channel astragal acts like an I-beam, doing similar to your steel inlet idea
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BillEason | | #13That makes sense. What I'm going to try first is a steel angle on the bumper side of the door. We have plenty of room inside the slot to do that, and three small screw holes on the edge shouldn't make the door non-returnable. I was at Home Depot yesterday evening, and I noticed they had 1-1/2" angle, relatively thin but stiff, with holes all the way down both faces. It's only 6' long, but I think that's enough to do what I need to do. For starters, I'll put a screw at both ends, and one in the middle to pull the door flat. I'm trusting (hoping) that flattening the door along one edge will also flatten it all the way across.Thanks all for the continued advice and suggestions!
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TomT226 | | #14
That stuff is REAL mild, and bends easily. You need real channel or angle with a 3/16"-1/4" web.
Clamp the door between 2-2X8's laid edgewise to pull it flat before you apply the angle. You could even give it a little negative deflection with a shim at the mid point.
"DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!"
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Edited 3/19/2009 2:49 pm by TomT226
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Snort | | #15I can't remember if you said they were hollow core, or not. I assume not, and that they have a particle board core.I have had some luck sticking a door on some level horses (at least parallel to each other) and putting some weight on the crown. I keep the horses at the very ends of the door, and use mortar bags in the center for ballast. Weight til it's straight, and then a little more.Works best on veneered doors that don't have wide stiles in the frame. Good luck.http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
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BillEason | | #16
Right -- they're solid core. Not sure if the core is particleboard or wood staves... I believe particle. My main concern with bowing a door back as you suggest is whether the door has any "memory" that would, over time, make it revert back to its current bowed shape. I'd trust this solution over the trick where you lay it on the grass and let one side absorb some moisture while the other side dries out in the sun. Seems like that's asking for a callback. I'm going to give the angle iron thing a shot and post my results.-wtePS - here's my door: http://www.masonite.com/product_features_MoldedPanel.php
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Snort | | #17
In my experiences, particle board and MDF, which seem to be in most interior door cores, forgets what it knew way more easily than real, or engineered wood.Post some pics of the operation.http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
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Snort | | #18
There's one way to get 'em flat to start with... custom. These are 4/0 8/0 slabs... 3k apiece, and flat as glasshttp://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Replies
I don't really have an answer. From my experience, this is what you're gonna get when you have two pocket doors meeting in the middle like that. I would probably look into fiberglass doors. I hate pocket doors.
"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
My old ones (4'x7' each) have had enough time to hang out flat - about a hundred and thirty years.
But - one door has an original trim piece like a "C" along the mating edge; the other door fits into it, and the latch pulls them together.
Any chance of something like that?
Forrest
I mill my own out, but he could buy two astragals, and rip the tip off each so they both meet in the center of the door thickness, leaving enough gap for the meeting panel
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Don't know if this would work, but how about routing a 1/4 X 1" trough on the top and bottom of both doors, drill and counter sink holes in a piece of strap steel to fit.
You could clamp 2X6's edge on across the length when you install the steel.
Of course, I'm assuming that it's warping along the top and bottom, and not the sides. 'Course if it is the sides, then you could still do it, but you'd have to mill out the steel for the lock set.
In my experience, Masonite doors are a good buy right up to the point to where you need two doors to come together.
I don't know where you are at but I've always gotten nice flat doors from Upstatedoor.com - Even the 3/0 x 8/0 doors are dead flat.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
I don't think you'll like this, but it's the truth. 1/4" warp is not considered a defect by Masonite or any other manufacturer that I'm aware of. They will ALL suggest that the doors hang for up to one year before any action should be taken. Your doors moved a little over the weekend, so you can understand why they say that.
Where the doors are manufactured and where they end up is likely to be a varying weather condition, so expect some movement to occur. The doors will eventually tend to return to their shape at the time of manufacture after a period of acclimation.
I'm not familiar with Masonite doors in the least, but I rarely see a *perfect* door.
My instinct says that over 3/16" in eight feet is excessive though. esp for a pocket door, but I leave that much tolerance in the pocket trim so it doesn't rub.
For the meeting, every double I have built or seen in older places has a meeting bar like an astragal double sided to handle the problem there. You aren't the first one to ever try to saddle this horse.
I think I might have a picture of one...
....sorry can't find it right now, but you get the idea
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks guys (I assume all guys???) for the quick advice. Keep it coming if you have any more thoughts!
I'll aggregate my replies here:
Huck: fg doors might be better, you're right. One issue is that we're trying to match the other arched-top doors in close proximity to these. I'm not sure I could find that in a fiberglass door, but worth looking!
Forrest: I wish I could tell the client to wait 130 years and if it's not right by then, I'll be right over to fix it! Heck, give me 130 days.... The "C" channel/astragal might be something to consider, but if the door's not flat to begin with, I'm not yet sure how that would help, but I'm chewing on an idea.
TomT226: Unfortunately, it's along the 8' axis, not the top/bottom that's the problem. You may be onto something, though...
FNbenthayer: I'm in Atlanta, so who knows what would happen if I tried to have something shipped here?!?
doorboy: No, I don't really like the 1-year idea (I actually like the 130 year idea better!). Moreover, I don't think the client will buy that idea!
Piffin: No, I'm not really expecting perfection (client might be, but...). It *would* be nice to at least have two that matched in their curvature, then cheat the jamb to disguise it. If the slot is curved to match, no should ever notice. Good think that it's a 6" wall, b/c curving the slot in a 4" wall would show worse.
Here are some more thoughts and observations I've had:
I've left the "good" door hanging from its track. After hanging two bad ones on the other side, I've gone to just standing them up in the closed position, barely into slot for support. Then I can test how it's going to meet with the good door. Part of the problem is that a door that's off by 1/4" in the middle of the span might not be that bad, depending on how it hangs. If it hangs such that the top and bottom meet, then it's just off by 1/4" in the middle. If you hang it such that the TOP AND MIDDLE line up with the other door, then the bottom is off by 1/2"! So, a 1/4" bow means that it's only a best case scenario for alignment with a flat door.
INSTEAD, what if I routed two slots, say 1" deep by 1/4" wide, just below the skin on BOTH sides of the door? Then I could embed steel on BOTH sides of the door with epoxy, essentially creating a little I-beam with steel flanges and the door itself as the web. I could still mortise out for a narrow pop-out pull on the edge and put recessed cups on the sides (if any side pulls are even needed). I'd rather not cut into the face of the door to do this, but I'm confident I could cut the slots I'd need in the edge just below the skin. Also, I couldn't use the kind of "combo" pull where you notch out a big chunk from the edge of the door, but I'm not as keen on those anyway.
See any merit to this idea? If I did this, should I bias the door with a slight curve the other way? I'd hate to waste a door trying....