Hi All,
Contractor/boss says one thing home owner swears the city says otherwise. What do you think.
Here’s the deal: Installing french doors that open up to a small 2’x8′ landing with no rails. What was there was a floor to ceiling half bay window sort of affair, so the existing landing-that’s all that’s left- isn’t really even designed or built for exterior.
The owner doen’t want to build a deck out there “yet”. Nor spend the money for a landing with rails-something designed for exterior use.
The owner says we can merely “bolt up a board” that will keep someone from accidently walking out into space. No height or other specs given-just one board. The said board would go outside allowing the inside swinging doors to open.
Boss and I agree that if we install the door that leads to a 3 foot drop we’re gonna bolt that sucker closed so there is no question about anyone taking flight.
The rest of the job hinges on this being ironed out Tomorrow morning. I really ahve no say in the matter but am the only one not getting emotional about it and have been keeping the peace between boss and owner.
Your thoughts are welcomed.
N
Replies
I'm not sure I would even agree to bolting it shut. If the platform isn't being built now, why put in the door now?
Maybe if the homeowner signs a hold harmless agreement, but I'd probably at least check with my insurance agent if not my lawyer.
Another day, another tool.
Either get written signed and dated instructions from the owner and have your attorney review the document, or ask the building dept.
We used to be able to turn the dead bolt to a locked position and then re-assemble after pulling the actuator rod so that the lever and key would not open it. That is no longer allowed here. It is now common to see little 3' X 3' "decks" a story or more up off the ground - temporary structures 'till the owners come up with the scratch to build something permanent.
I've actually seen it quite a lot in the old neighborhood my parents lived in, lot of houses with walk out basements in the back yard, and a french door out of the kitchen into space.
a 2x4 or 2x6 was usually nailed across at about the door handle height on the outside and left for the future deck to be built.
I also know the doors were not kept shut by anything but the lock, a friend had an opening like that and we moved a trampolean over so we could jump out of the door and onto the tramp from 9 feet up..... until a kid broke his arm.
So in my opinion, now looking back 12 years later it's a bad idea, even if you are only 3' off the ground.
Why not just put up a set of temp stairs for the time being?
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
Gee ...
My shop has a set of French doors on the second floor opening into the air. (It allows me to get boats out of my shop.)
The proper definition is "window."
Floor to ceiling windows are allowed. Windows can open without any protection being required.
not as far as i no..
if the window bottom is within 18" of the floor , another series of rules comes into effect..
in the door to no-where case.. my building inspector would say the opening has to be protected with a "guard rail" just like stairs and decks.. ie: a railing that complies with the 4" rule , that will withstand the impact prescribed in your local code..
when and if they build the deck, the guard rail can be changed
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I think you're the closest, Mike. My reading of the code says that a strict interpretation would require the railing you describe (min 36" high) on that 2x8' "deck" though. The issue isn't the door/window. Any landing/deck more than 30" off ground/floor requires a guardrail.
Weird case huh?
The owner has big plans for a deck and pool etc.. but is concentrating on the inside for now. I said I'll build a small landing with rails but that will be several $100 and I don't know what the final deck design will be so this will be temporary.
So far I have the 2x6 bolted across the bottom inside to prevent opening.
I'll let ya know how it works out.
N
Notrix,
How about a simple railing, 2x6 36+" up and one under the door, 2x2 every 4 oc across it can't be more then an hour of labor + material, kind of like a cheapo deck railing across the opening on the outsideNever be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
Well....
I set the doors today and just put a 2x6 and 5" lag bolts across the bottom on the inside so they're locked up.
I suppose in the future they could be removed and this last suggestion inacted but I fear the owner is shutting down money wise for now.
Pity I really wanted to make a nice little perch for them.
thanks,
N
Notrix,
You did your job, door is secured, if harry home owner takes it out and falls and twists his ankle not your problem
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
> Floor to ceiling windows are allowed. Windows can open without any protection being required.
It's different here. Floor to ceiling windows are OK, but if the sill is lower than 42" above the floor, you have to install a railing at least 42" above the floor such that a 4" diameter ball can't get thru below it.
-- J.S.
I don't know. The window sills in my house are at 30" and the book shelves or window boxes form a "ladder effect."
Builder's, homeowners, and inspectors have to work this out for themselves.
What about screwing a 2 x 4 to the floor on the interior that would prevent the doors from opening. Think of it as the poorman's "door club".
Sort of a take off from others here. Why not buy a piece if railing from from a big box store and bolt it directly to the outside of the frame/jamb of the door, not the perimeter of the deck. It would still allow you to open the doors, but you can't even step on the deck without climbing over it. Would that work? What does a 3'-6' piece of that stuff cost
A lot's likely to depend on the inspector's interpretation. Code for platforms/balconies doesn't address how you get out there--could be a door or a hole in the wall or even no access. Only addresses the landing itself, and seems like it's the inspector's call on if it's a landing or, say, a flat roof overhang for something below. A cooperative inspector will allow what you suggested. An anal one might not, though code doesn't address how far in from the edge the railing must be, and you could argue that your solution does place it at the edge, just with a 2' setback. :) While the board across the inside seems effective, I'd hesitate on that one be/c of egress in case of fire (we don't know the configuration of the rest of the room), and be/c of the likelihood that the HO will remove that board at the first opportunity and someone'll get hurt and someone else'll get come after for constructing a non-compliant structure.
what about building a false deck? Right outside the door build a deck thats about 6-8" in depth and slightly wider then the door. This would lend to safety and aesthetics. With the false deck there, the house wouldnt look out of place with that set of doors going to no where.
Another advantage is that by attaching the false deck you can already finalize your door to the elements by attaching your ledger and deck rim and go ahead and do your flashing and waterescaping and weather sealing w/o the deck makers fouling up your door causing a call back or a HO hassle in the future. Your threshold wont be compromised when the deck builders come, flashing will be taken care of and in the end you wont have to replace the siding in the area you have already taken off for the future deck expansion by building your 6" deck with railings to satisfy code, making future deck work a bit less hassle and you make the install look more pleasing to the facade of the house.
By selling them this idea you can save lots of headaches for everyone even keep your lawyers and insurance people from an stroke.
Glass breaks pretty easily when kicked....
Here, if it's made inoperable (in any way), it'll pass inspection. What the HO does after that isn't a problem, unless some one gets hurt and lawyers are involved, or the the house goes on the market. EliphIno!
Perhaps a visit to the local burglar bar or iron fence company. Have them weld up a rail and baluster combination that meets code, like 42" off the floor for the top rail and 4" between balusters, and lag that mini-fence between the exterior jambs. There's no need for a mini-deck because the opening is then properly protected.
If the proposed deck is some time in the future then a more decorative arrangement could be fabricated - ie., scroll work, twisted balusters, etc. - to compliment the house and not look like a scab on.