This might be a repeat but I wanted to put the entire sequence in order.
This pic shows the twin dormers. That’s the goal. How we all get there is the discussion.
Bob’s next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 4/15/2008 10:28 pm by Jim_Allen
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Edited 4/15/2008 10:28 pm by Jim_Allen
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The sequence of the dormer and their exterior pine tie in is always a good topic for debate. In fact, because we usually put all the pine on one wall or the other, every wall is scrutinized and debated to determine which is the easiest way to proceed.
On these twin gables, we quickly determined that we would put up the side walls bare and put all the pine on the gables. Then, we would complete the overhangs working from the finished gable trim.
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Often, this is a chicken or egg debate. In this case, the gable first system is a clear winner but I'm always open for further debate.
This pic shows someone up there taking the commons off the forks and installing them. Quite frankly, I'd have a much better perch. I'd have dumped a bunch of studs across the side wall of the gable and maybe laid a piece of plywood on it. Then, I'd have a nice table for my tools and water and all those parts that need installing.
A lot guys think that kind of staging is a waste of time. I see it as the logical precursor to doing the entire job up there on the roof. The studs will later become kickers and the plywood will be laid as one piece of sheathing...so essentially, there will be zero wasted time in staging it correctly and lots of saved time doing the rafter install.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 4/13/2008 3:16 pm by Jim_Allen
For once I agree with you wholeheartedly Jim <g>.
Side walls, Gable (with or w/o trim), Ceiling joists or temp. staging to finish the commons and valleys.
That is assuming of course, that I couldn't build 90 to 100% of the entire dormer on a mock-up on the ground.
Full side-wall dormers are pretty easy to do that way if you have a nice flat surface to work on.
Just my experience. Thanks for the topic. The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Dormers are one of those items that are small enough to do in their entirety. But...they also quickly move into the "just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should" category. View Image Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Sorry for picking on you David...but I really hate talking to myself or to "all".
This pic shows how I've started the installation process of the sheathing stiffeners, other wise known as "gable studs".
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I've already cut the plywood exact to the roof line and I just find blocks and stable/nail them in. They are hanging out wild and I'll cut them to length by flush cutting them to the ply. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows the flush cut studs.
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Dang, the White Sox just clubbed a grand slam off my Tigers! I can't believe the start that Detroit has had.
I'll add a few intermediate studs, by eye of course. It's such a small gable that one in the middle of each side will be fine. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Here, I fill in with whatever chunks of plywood I can find lying around.
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And then I paper it.
View Image Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Now comes the fun part....the overhangs.
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This shows the frieze boards installed first. I lap the second one over and mark the cut line. I probably cut 90% of those lap cuts without a mark. Normally, I just line up the points by eye and cut through them both at a slight angle without adjusting the bevel on my saw. That's not very easy to do (tilt the saw) if there is an extended table on it.
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This shows the finished cut after the lapcut. I tilt the saw about 7 to 9 degrees. I think we were taught 11 degrees in the olden days when we were working with smooth white pine (3/4") but this RS is a full 7/8" and 11 degrees is too tight and the parts won't lay properly.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This pic shows the cuts at the bottom of the overhang.
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Here, I'm checking to make sure that I've "dropped" the frieze down to accomodate the subrake and soffit. Those total 4 3/8".
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This line shows the plumb line at the outside of the wall. I call this my "OWL" for "outside wall line". It is the starting point for all pine measurements.
This pic shows the second line added on the opposite wall. The inside line will be my cut line.
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Heres the finished plumb cut. It's intentionally set back 7/8" to receive the "bulkhead".
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Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I forgot to add the full size pics on the last post. If you want them, just send me a request.
This pic shows the bulkheads and the method of getting the exact length needed. It's all simple math and simple techniques. I've never figured out how to calculate them scientifically, but often have thought that I should.
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If you look at the back gable, you'll see both bulkheads nailed up.
Here's the pile of four bulkheads before I nailed them on.
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My tape is showing the bottom of the fascia as it relates to the top plate. I think I'm reading 11 7/8" down. That number is derived as a mathematical calculation from from the pitch, projection, heel height and soffit partsFascia dimension. It's all very basic math.
This pic shows how I would cut my first bulkhead to get the actual length of them.
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I first cut the proper angle, then lay it on the wall and mark the length using the mark on the sideall as my guide.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The tigers lost. It's time for a break. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Our teams are certainly starting slooooooooowly.
We have had two bright spots in our rotation, and none at the plate.
See you wednesday.
And thanks for this pictorial.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Jim,
Thank you for sharing.
Looks really good.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
I appreciate your appreciation Steven and Cal's too.
Cal, I have been shocked at how inept the Tigers hitting is. We were supposed to have the greatest lineup since Murderer's Row and were getting shut out day after day! It's amazing how bad we are hitting!
I hadn't realized that you were suffering a slow start too. Both teams are too good and they'll break out of the slump. I just hope we peak at World Series time. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Heres a shot of the finished soffit nailed into the bulkhead.
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Heres a close up looking straight down on the connection.
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Notice that I haven't banged the connection tight. I probablywon't bang that any tighter. It's rough sawn spruce and it tends to split easily. I've learned the hard way that if I try to eliminate all of the cupping, I might end up replacing lots of boards. I take what I can get but I don't force things. I might have been able to bang this one tighter with my hammer and I certainly do so where I can. I hate the gaps and if I can't create a gap free pine connection, I glue or caulk them closed. Maybe a later picture will tell more of the story.
This pic shows the finished soffit and bulkheads:
View Image Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows the connection at the peak.
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It's not that strong.....yet. The next parts will lock it in nicely.
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The sub rake locks in the soffit. I run it wild then run the saw up the top of the rake making it all flush.
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It appears that the sub rake is sagging down. There is a good chance that it has a slight twist in it. Many guys will shy away from a twisted member here but I like to use the bad stuff up when it's buried behind the finished rake. Mother experience whispers in my ear and tells me to be careful when intalling the next piece over this one. I'll leave a gap and/or shim it, depending on the situation.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
More tomorrow.
We might be able to get this thing up and finished. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
when do we get our CO???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Don't push it...I'll need an inspection. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
are you saying you don't have a permit????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Quit interupting...Where were we?
Oh yeah. We just installed the subrake and fit it at the top. Now comes the fun part.
This is where we are heading with the rake subframing.
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The fun part is how we got there.
This pic shows me finding the outside fascia line.
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As you can see, I'm using my Speedier Square and finding where the 16" overhang will intersect with my sub rake. That line represents the top of the fascia. It is truly the most important line in our system of framing. Everything....EVERYTHING is calculated and derived from it. We mathematically calculate the height of the fascia and all other lines are easily calculated from it.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 4/14/2008 9:52 pm by Jim_Allen
The top of the fascia is the starting point. I know our subfascia rack will be made out of 2x4, so I measure down 3 1/2" and I find the bottom of the subfascia.
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This shows the assembly without the red notations
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I have no idea what that plumb line is for, nor do I know why I marked the top of the 2x10. Often, I mark lines, then realize that they are meaningless. It's probably my A.D.D kicking in.
The line extending off the top of the fascia is my governing line. I'm creating my plumb cut from the fascia, then measuring the thickness of my subfascia from that.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 4/14/2008 10:15 pm by Jim_Allen
I start my rake board by putting a compound angle on them. This shows the plumb cut on a 45 degree angle. I line up the inside of the short point with the exterior of the subfascia.
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I let the top run wild, then I lap cut them at the peak.
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This shows the entire rake. I've already lapcut the top. It's ready for the wedges and brickmold. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows the wedge installation.
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Notice, the bottom of the wedge corresponds with the bottom of the bulkhead. This is the same line as the bottom of the fascia. This wedge hides the soffit system framing.
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This shows the wedge after I nip off the remainder of the rake that hangs down lower than the fascia. Of course, I just nip this off by eye but running the blade along the bottom of the wedge at a rapid pace. You can see the subrake framing underneath. The 16" soffit ply will nail to that.
We'll be getting to that soon...maybe. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Before I send it up, I have to install the brick mold. We call these brick molds because in the olden days when I started, these were always made of actual brick mold! Now, we use 1x2 to hide the edge of the plywood.
If we use this brick mold, the metal edge drip is optional. I prefer to leave it off. Frank prefers to put it on. I like the cleaner look of the 1x2. He likes the rake assembly without the 1x2 but with the metal drip edge.
Originally, the metal drip edge hid the edge of the roof boards, so we really don't need both...but it's hard for a lot of the youngsters to understand all that.
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I fit the tops and run the bottoms long. I then run the saw down these, flush with the outside edge of the long point.
Of course, it's done by eye. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows the finished gable from the side.
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This shows the gable getting hoisted.
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If there is a weakness in the assembly, it would be evident right there at that angle. It's looking plenty stiff to me.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This gives you a good view of what it's supposed to look like in it's natural vertical state. One of the hardest things I had to learn to do was to visualize how everything is supposed to look while it's laying flat. That comes naturally to some people. I have to work at it.
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View Image Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Steve is laying down the bead of glue where the wall will land.
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Carl has come over to help set the wall.
View Image Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Heres a good look of the dormer situation.
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And heres a shot of the twin dormers waiting for their return soffit systems.
View Image Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Tomorrow, we'll finish the soffit systems. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
nicely done....
then can we get the CO????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Jim,
keep posting...
always like your threads...
I would throw my 2 cents (cnd) in more often...
just can't type worth $#!t...
regards
Thanks. I wish that pest (the guy that wants the C of O) above your head would forget how to type. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I really enjoy your building posts. Thanks for taking the time to put it together!
Larry
Thanks for the encouragement Larry. It's a bit too late to start posting pics, but I'll get back to it tomorrow. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Time to finish as promised.
I thought I had the entire sequence of how I completed the overhangs. Unfortunately, I don't have the most important picture that I need to make sense of these dormers. I'm missing the cutting and installation of the frieze. It is important to me because it's the first piece of the overhang assembly that I install.
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This shows the best picture of the Frieze. It goes on first. It's a simple matter to measure down from the top plate and mark the top of the frieze. I can easily find the total length from the front of the corner board to the long point of the pitch cut where it dies at the roof.
This measurement becomes the first numbe in the length calculation for the soffit ply.
Notice my makeshift sawhorses. I don't spend a lot of time building fancy stuff when I'm only going to be working somewhere for ten or fifteen minutes. On this one, I've picked up a few scraps of the roof sheathing that the guys dropped and stapled it into the window openings. I've cut a quick notch to hold my gun. I hate bending so I do ANYTHING to reduce the times I have to bend over to pick something up. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
After I get the frieze length, I cut the pitch cut and nail it on. I keep it 7/8" off the OSB sheathing where it dies into the roof.
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This shows the second step in the assembly process. I cut the soffit ply to length (frieze length + gable projection beyond corner board). I then staple it to the sub-fascia which is left long on both ends. I find it quicker to cut both ends off after it's nailed, especially working in conditions like this. One end gets a square cut, the other end gets the roof pitch cut.
This pictures shows me marking the pitch cut with the Speedier Square. It looks like I'm marking a 9/12.
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This shows the cut line of the subfascia. I leave it up the same 7/8" so the shinglers can slide their shingles well up out of the weather.
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Notice that I've got another piece of pine already cut on the pitch. I probably gang cut all the pitch cuts before I started the frieze.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows that piece nailed into the gable overhang. Notice that I've cut the gable subrake back to receive the sub fascia. If you've been following closely, you'll remember that I had ran that sub rake all the way out. I probably cut it back 1 1/2" when I got up there on the roof.
Don't make fun of me...I'm entitled to change my mind occasionally aren't I?
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One of the big benefits of assembling the soffit systems before the roof is installed is the ease of nailing the soffits down into the frieze. We put nails into it every 6 or 8" and everywhere there is a small gap. It's all nailed tight. It's fast and easy. I'm not fighting around the rafters to get the good nailing. There isn't any roof sheathing in the way.
Notice that I mitre all the fascia-rake connection. Strength isn't an issue here and I find it much faster to put these connections together and make them look good and tight.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I don't have a picture of the fascia cut, which is very easy. I simply hook my tape on the long point and measure to the long point and even I can figure out how to cut it. My fascia and subfascia are always flush on top.
So, we'll have to move on to the corner boards. Heres the finished version of what I'm trying to accomplish.
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I wouldn't do it this way on my next dormer set. I view this arrangement as a slight waste of time and would change my technique on subsequent installs of this kind. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The reason I wouldn't do it in this sequence is this notch.
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A notch like this adds a considerable amount of time and no value. It would have been significantly faster to leave the bulkhead off and install the front corner board with no notch.
Lets do the math: The notch forced me to add this small alignment block tight to the frieze and tight up to the bulkhead. That wouldn't have been necessary. That adds about 20 seconds. Then I had to figure a way to project up and find the long point on the corner board. That added another 20 seconds. I then had to mark out the thickness cut of the notch and actually make the cut. That might add another 30 or 40 seconds.
If I had left off the bulkhead, I wouldn't have had any notches. It would have added a little more time on the bulkhead because it wouldn't be a full 1x8 width. I would have to spend 20 seconds ripping it.
The way I figure, I had a net loss of one minute. I know this might sound insincere, but this is the sort of thing that bothers me when I'm building things. One minute doesn't seem like a lot but when viewed as a percentage measured against the part if it was done efficiently: it probably tripled the time! TRIPPLED?!!!! Yes, trippled.
YIKES! I might have lost some sleep that night. That is lost time, never to be regained. It chipped away at my retirement income. It truly is the sort of thing that I spend time analyzing on my drive home that night. I don't mind spending an extra minute on something if it adds value but if there is no value, I strive for the most efficient method and techniques. I'm always open for new ideas and love trying something new.
This concludes the dormer thread until I run across the picture of the finished house. I have one somewhere...I just can find it.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Okay....I'll continue a bit more tonite. I'm glad I got someone to post to other than myself now.
After I fasten the bulkheads, the next step is the soffit. I precut one end on the bevel and lay it loose for marking.
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Here's a close up of the mark at the peak.
View Image Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The process starts with the pair of walls framed on the table. There won't be any header over the openings. There's no weight and we wanted to center the windows better in the dormer for aesthetic appeal.
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Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 4/13/2008 3:16 pm by Jim_Allen
The next step is to get the double top plate and the drywall backer on.
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I raise the wall up on blocks and add the backer. You can see the finished one in the background. This backer will become the nailer for my gable studs. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I rethink every wall and will often alter my methods to fit a specific wall for any number of reasons. On these walls, I decided to run one piece of sheathing horizontally along the bottom.
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I then turned the next piece vertically so it would reach high enough to cover the entire gable. Notice in the background on the far gable that there is no framing. I'm going to do these small gable slightly different than normal. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This photo shows the sheathing installed, but not yet cut.
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The exact pitch cut for the roof will be very easy to mark. These look like 12/12 pitches, so the calculations are very simple. I'll rip the plywood straight up the outside of the wall, then put a small pencil mark at the top of the heel, other wise known as the "HAP" (height above plate). I'll then measure the width of the plywood and add that number to the HAP and mark the inside edge. The straigtedge will connect the dots and form the roofline. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07