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Dormers for bonus room

| Posted in Construction Techniques on July 21, 2003 12:10pm

I have a traditional colonial with an attached 2 car garage. The garage is 24 x 24. I would like to add 2 doghouse dormers to the front roof before I finish the bonus room.

Can anybody recommend a good book that would help with  the sizing of the dormers and the most asthetic placement of them. While I understand that I can make them however big I want, there is usually a pretty standard dormer size. I’m also curious how high up on the roof they should be placed.

I have found this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0963226886/qid=1058735097/sr=2-1/102-1047277-7326531?v=glance&s=books that says it has some info on dormers, but I also don’t want to buy it to find it’s not what I’m looking for. No libraries in my area have it.

Any thoughts or siggestions would be really appreciated.

Thanks,

Tony

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  1. User avater
    Timuhler | Jul 21, 2003 12:56am | #1

    Here is the article about doghouse dormers that is in that link you posted.  That book is just a collection of articles from JLC.  You can buy individual articles now from their website.  Here it is.  I think it's only a few bucks.

    http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/3f1b0f970065dca3271a401e1d290630/Product/View/9410dogh

  2. User avater
    BillHartmann | Jul 21, 2003 01:34am | #2

    For years I have been trying to figure out what a BONUS room is.

    The only kind of bonus room that I can think of is if you have a contract with the builder say for $200,000 to build a 2000 sq ft house. And when he is done he tell you that for the same price and without cutting any quality he gave you and extra room and it is actually a 2200 sq ft house.

    1. anthonydante | Jul 21, 2003 05:09am | #3

      It is interesting how we get these terms...isn't it? I guess someday I can call it my FROG (finished room over garage), but now it's an UROG (unfinished room over garage). I guess it's just easier to call it a bonus room!

      Right now, there is just a framed kneewall and the floor decking is down. For a few bucks (yeah...right) I'll gain 200 square feet more. What a bonus!

      Have a great night,

      Tony

      1. skids | Jul 21, 2003 05:18am | #4

        T.D. how about a scale model to see what it looks like? if you build a cardboard model of the garage to scale, and some cardboard dormers of different sizes you can play with different sizes in different locations to get a good idea if what they look like.

      2. User avater
        BossHog | Jul 21, 2003 04:57pm | #5

        My first thought is, how is the thing framed? Stick framed, or with trusses?

        I know you weren't looking for structural advice. But that's what I do, so it's the first thing I think about.

        As for size and placement - Try building a rough frame of one and tack it to the roof temporarily. That way you can get a good visual idea of how it will look when finished. And it's easy to make changes in width and placement.

        Pictures are always good, and will probably get you more responses.Q: Why did the lawyer cross the road?A: He saw a car accident on the other side.

        1. anthonydante | Jul 21, 2003 10:00pm | #6

          Oops, I guess I should have remembered to state that the garage is stick built. Thanks for the advice. With the article from JLC and a few trips to houses under construction, I think finding good size and placement will be pretty easy.

          As a professional firefighter, I refuse to have a roof truss anywhere in my house. They hold the roof up great...until they have a little heat from fire applied to them.

          In the fire service, we don't call them trusses...we call them firemen killers. We've lost far too many firefighters in this world from this "engineering marvel".

          Have a good one,Tony

          1. User avater
            BossHog | Jul 21, 2003 10:22pm | #7

            "Fireman killers" ???

            There's a very, very small number of firemen killed in fires that have anything to do with trusses. You've been listening to the hype they've been feeding you too much.Q: How do you know when your divorce is getting ugly?A: When your lawyer doesn't seem like a bloodsucking leech anymore.

          2. User avater
            JeffBuck | Jul 21, 2003 11:08pm | #8

            a fireman

            and a truss-man

            .....this could get....

            heated!

            JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

             Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite                  

          3. anthonydante | Jul 22, 2003 12:31am | #9

            I decided to count to 10 before replying to your ignorant post, but it didn't work. I just finished counting to 1000 and am still steaming.

            If one firefighter or civilian ANYWHERE dies from a construction method that is based on cost or time savings, it is ONE TOO MANY. Have you ever pulled debris away looking for a body? I have, it isn't fun.

            Who the hell are you to tell a professional firefighter with a Bachelors degree in fire protection that trusses don't fail faster under fire loads? I can outline numerous cases all over the world that resulted in death or injury as a direct result. Perhaps you need to read "Building Construction for the Fire Service, 3rd Edition" by Francis Brannigan instead of writing off true stories and statistics as "hype". Perhaps the firefighter in Arizona who has no feeling from his waist down after a truss collapse would like to discuss the "hype". After that, go talk to the 3 widows in Texas who lost their husbands when the truss roof of a McDonald's collapsed. Their children have no fathers...but that must just be part of the "hype".

            I am still amazed that you can write with such authority when you are in all reality, clueless.

            I had the chance to tour a truss factory once. It was very interesting to look up and see that there was not one truss anywhere in the place. Think about it.

            Some major cities have enacted laws that require buildings with trussed roofs to bear marking symbols by the front door notifying firefighters and building officials. There is a reason for that.

            Knowing about building construction is one thing...knowing how that building will react when it is burning is a whole different story.

          4. pizza | Jul 22, 2003 03:06am | #10

            Hi, I don't want to get in the middle of this fight. But you now have intigued me with this truss/fire issue. Can you tell me what would be preferable to trusses under a roof when it comes to fire safety? I'd like to know so that when I build my dream home I can do it right.  Do other methods of roof support hold up better when exposed to fire? If so what are they? Thanks.

          5. User avater
            BossHog | Jul 22, 2003 04:18am | #11

            So just exactly how much do I know about trusses? You must know, since you called me clueless. You obviously know how much time I've spent studying the issue.

            But you're obviously the greater authority. Gosh, you must be since you have a college degree. I'm obviously just an ignorant redneck. You've certainly assumed that I haven't been to college, and know nothing about firefighting.

            How about showing me some statistics about how many firefighters are killed each year by trusses? I have some statistics at work I'll post tomorrow.

            BTW - Spare me the emotional crap about pulling dead bodies out of fires. Save the emotional crap for when you run out of facts. Education is going to college to learn to express your ignorance in scientific terms.

          6. anthonydante | Jul 22, 2003 06:04pm | #16

            Did I call you an ignorant redneck? Nope, I don't know if you are a redneck.

            I am simply amazed that everything for you boils down to a number of deaths per year. What is your magic number? How many firefighters do you feel can die or get injured every year as a result of truss collapses? If it's 1 or 2, is that no big deal to you? I guess I can't write off people's lives that easily.

            Do you think pulling bodies out of a fire is "emotional crap"? Let's hear your experiences. How many have you had to do? There again, I gues I can't write off people's lives as easily as you.

            Your hostility to a firefighter with a degree is amusing. Did my degree teach me everything there will ever be about firefighting? Hell no. Did the academy? Nope. Do all of my continuing education classes? Nope. But, working 42 hours a week on a ladder truck that does over 3,000 call per year in an urban setting sure adds a hell of a lot of REAL WORLD experience.

            As far as the facts that you seek, get a copy of "Building Construction for the Fire Service, 3rd Edition". Chapter 12 is dedicated solely to truss construction. At the end of the chapter, there are 26 case studies. You may be able to find it in your local library. If not, it can be purchased here: http://www.firebooks.com/

            Also, here a some articles that also discuss injury and death which were the result of truss collapses.

            http://www.nfpa.org/Research/FireInvestigation/Articles/RoofCollapse/RoofCollapse.asp

            http://www.nfpa.org/Research/fireinvestigation/alertbulletins/trusscollapse/trusscollapse.asp

            http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/TR-069.pdf

            http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/TR-087.pdf

            http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/summ200103.html

            Trusses are a fantastic idea until they burn. The have excellent spans and, if installed properly, can suport great roof loads with ease. However, heat from a fire will loosen the gussett plates. This can be compared to the nails falling out of a stick framed structure. Once your fastening method is compromised, it's only going to go downhill from there.

            I would have a much happier attitude toward trusses if 1.) All buildings using trusses were clearly marked in the same manner that New Jersey mandates by law after the Hackensack fire that killed 5 firefighters, and 2.) if the building industry stopped nickel and diming and realized that a truss loft needs to be spinklered to cool the truss members and the gusset plates.

            So, please share with us the firefighting credentials that you have. I never assumed you have no knowledge or experience, and you never said you did. Tip your cards.

          7. User avater
            BossHog | Jul 22, 2003 06:43pm | #17

            If my response towards you was a bit hostile, it was due to your obnoxious post to me. You said I was "clueless" without knowing anything at all about me or having any idea what I do or don't know about fire and trusses.

            There obviously is no "magic number" of acceptable deaths per year from anyone in any profession. But you can't expect the whole world to get up in arms over something which has killed fewer people in 20 years than are killed on the highways each week in the USA.

            What I meant about "emotional crap" is your talking about pulling burnt bodies out of burned buildings. Emotional arguements are meaningless and pointless.

            If you had lightened upin your first response to me a little, we might have been able to have a much more civil exchange of ideas. Seat belts are not as confining as wheelchairs.

          8. anthonydante | Jul 23, 2003 02:15am | #18

            Your description of truss failure resulting in death of firefighters as "hype" shows an enormous amount of disrespect to those firefighters that have fallen in the line of duty.

            By doing that, you grabbed a big, ugly bull by the horns. Civil exchange terminated.

            Your comparison of trusses to a highway crash is totally off base. If Mrs. Hog or baby Hog got killed on Route 66 USA because the manufacturing process or known failure of her car was at fault, wouldn't that become a topic that you would hold very close to your heart? I would hope so.

            I understand that you are involved in the truss industry and that you will argue to preserve your longevity in the industry. I argue to preserve mine.

            My opinion will not change. If trusses are to be used, the building should be marked and the trussloft should be sprinklered.

          9. User avater
            BossHog | Jul 23, 2003 02:16pm | #19

            "Your description of truss failure resulting in death of firefighters as "hype" shows an enormous amount of disrespect to those firefighters that have fallen in the line of duty."

            You seem to have a knack for taking things completely out of context. I didn't say that firefighters dying was "hype". What I said was that you had listened to too much hype about the issue of trusses and fires.

            "Your comparison of trusses to a highway crash is totally off base."

            Once again, you didn't pay attention to what I said. What I said was: "...you can't expect the whole world to get up in arms over something which has killed fewer people in 20 years than are killed on the highways each week in the USA." By that I mean if you want to see change in the construction industry, you have to convince the public that change is needed. If something was killing hundreds of firefighters every year, that would make a good case for change. But since it appears to be less than 5 per year, no one is going to get excited about it. That may seem cold, but it's the way things work.

            "I understand that you are involved in the truss industry and that you will argue to preserve your longevity in the industry"

            Not at all. I'm defending against what I see as an unfair and baseless attack on our industry by the fire service. If I thought trusses were dangerous, I wouldn't be in this business.

            I live in a two-story house.one story is "I have a headache" and the other story is "It's that time of the month."

          10. anthonydante | Jul 23, 2003 03:39pm | #20

            The only "hype" here is an industry saying that everything will be fine. They're right, because they'll be at home when a truss roof burns. The members will fail faster. We all know that. Do I think we should ban trusses from the world? Never. They make excellent use of geometry to handle spans that were once impossible. With that, the industry should admit that they will fail faster and stop fighting the building markings.

            How many fires have you been to that had truss roofs, and how many fires have you been to that have 2x8's or 2x10's? How did each hold up? You mentioned having knowledge of firefighting, but still haven't detailed exactly what it is.

            Futhermore, please outline your experience in the industry. Do you make them, install them, or drive the truck that delivers them?

            My apologies if I took any statements out of context. Firefighters have a huge passion to protect each other from death and injury. I have been too WAY too many firefighter funerals. I hope I never have to go to another again.

          11. User avater
            BossHog | Jul 23, 2003 04:19pm | #21

            "The only "hype" here is an industry saying that everything will be fine."

            I don't recall anyone saying that. Can you show me a quote?

            This is typical of the stuff that annoys me about the fire service. Lots of B.S. and emotional crap to throw around, but no facts.

            "How many fires have you been to that had truss roofs..."

            What difference does that make? Am I not allowed an opinion since I don't have your vast experience? (And matching ego)

            One other bone I'd like to pick with you, while we're at it. According to the chart I posted, 45% of firemen that are killed at fires die from heart attacks. Why isn't the fire service up in arms about that? Why isn't there a big uproar over that, when it kills 9 or 10 times the amount of firefighters that are killed by "structural collapse"?

            The information I've gotten about trusses and fires was from both sides of the fence. I tried to get both sides of the issue, and form an objective opinion.

            That's something you ought to try sometime.The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind. -- Peter, Paul, and Mary

          12. anthonydante | Jul 23, 2003 05:48pm | #24

            First of all, you have obviously mistaken real world knowledge for ego. I am simply trying to see what you base your opinions on. I'm looking to see what experiences you have. If you can tell me that you were able to see many examples on both sides of the fence - you would become more credible. You are entitled to have any opinions you want. Naturally, an opinion is taken with different regard depending on the qualification of the individual.

            Numerous times I have stated that trusses are a great idea in many applications. Their use of geometry gives us great spans, their reduced use of wood is great for environmental reasons, and they do indeed offer cost savings. With that, I feel they have some problems that we should be aware of, and have been able to share my ideas on ways to correct them. If that isn't an objective opinion to you, nothing ever will be.

            As far as heart attacks being the largets killer of FF's, you are indeed correct. That is a horrible state of affairs. Fighting a fire is very physically demanding, but it doesn't have to be life ending. My dept., and many others, all have wellness programs. We are bound by our contract to maintain a goal weight and physical condition. We have 2 physicals per year from a dept. doctor. If any of our members go outside their goal weight and condition, discipline leading to termination is possible. We also have mandated PT while on duty. Hopefully, every dept. will follow suit.

            As I've stated in other threads, I do not like the way that the fire service collects and groups firefighter death data. Some examples - An 81 year old volunteer fire police member (a guy that directs traffic around a fire scene) had a heart attack and died. That is considered a line of duty death and added to that category. Another - a firefighter riding on a truck in a Memorial Day parade was having chest pain and was taken to the hospital where her died 5 days later. That is considered a line of duty death and is added to that category. While the loss of these men is indeed sad, I feel that adding them to a heart attack related category skews the numbers.

            Nobody said that the fire service wasn't up in arms about the leading cause of death. Perhaps in your reading of trade publications you missed all of the articles.

          13. TurtleBoy | Jul 23, 2003 04:22pm | #22

            Have you followed the story about the Station Nightclub Fire in RI? I know one of the people that made it out and he said that:

            1. They couln't see due to the black smoke

            2. They had something very hot dripping on them, like very hot glue

            The owners had place a flamable noise insulating material on the ceiling which caused the two problems above.

            I don't want to sound like a jerk but you mentioned the truss manufacturers need to impove the way they build the trusses to last in a fire. How long would they need to last? I'm sure that they could be built with larger 2x's but that would make them heavier and more exspensive so people would tend not to use them.

            When you first said that you wouldn't use trusses you should have said that you wouldn't use trusses with out the following, and then list those items.

            Just thought I'd add a little something to the mix

          14. User avater
            BossHog | Jul 22, 2003 02:12pm | #15

            Since there seems to be some interest in this, I figured I start a thread about it. Give me a bit of time this morning and I'll start one called "Trusses and Fires". Feel free to participate in that one, or start your own. I'll try to get it posted by 9am or so.Q: What is the ideal weight of a lawyer?A: About three pounds, including the urn.

      3. User avater
        Mongo | Jul 23, 2003 04:35pm | #23

        In my locale, 'bonus rooms' are unfinished rooms whose footage counts towards the square footage of the house, even though the room is unfinished.

        By designating it a 'bonus room', it allows the homeowner to finish the room at a later date without having to pull a building permit to do so.

        It's not a universal iinterpretation.

        1. anthonydante | Jul 23, 2003 05:52pm | #25

          Thanks Mongo, that make sense. Here, if it isn't heated - it can't be counted as square footage.

          The door from the center hallway is in, the floor decking is down, and the kneewalls are framed, but it's taxed like an attic since it cannot be used for much of anything.

          Have a good one,Tony

  3. Piffin | Jul 22, 2003 05:32am | #12

    It looks like this is going to be one of those threads i hate to see, so before it gets too hot, leet me mention my first thought based on your supposition that you can make the dormers as big as you want to.

    That's not really quite right. The larger they are, the more framing you remove from the roof and the more load that you have to transfer to other members which then must be re-inforced to handle it in one way or another. It also becomes possible that you then need beams in certain locations. Eventualy, you reach a point of no return, stucturally or financially.

    As to that idea of a "bonus" room - it I frame with sticks where someone else frames with trusses, for about the same cost, the space contained within can be a fre "bonus". Whether or not it is a "room" depends on the codes and the sizing of the joists. Loading it to be a floor if it is only engineered to be a ceiling can be just as dangerous as some other scenarios you have mentioned.

    Proportionatly speaking, the outer wall should be placed so the window sill is at comfortable height and no higher than 40" The overall window dimensions should be right for egress windows. The ridge of the dormer should be loweer than the ridge of the house, in most styles. Those criteria should define the other dimensions, when drawn to scale.

    .

    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. darrel | Jul 22, 2003 06:29am | #13

      I'm curious too...what makes a truss system more dangerous in a fire?

      1. Framer | Jul 22, 2003 01:30pm | #14

        I don't use Roof trusses much but all the times I used them they were all made out of 2x4's and all the ones that I see being used are also made out of 2x4's. I'm sure they make them out of 2x6's also. 

        I would say that 2x4's burn alot alot quicker then 2x6's 2x8's 2x10's or 2x12's rafters.

        I can tell you this. I 've been doing fire jobs for the past 13 years and there was a couple jobs that were trusses and it was a nightmare to demo what little was left of them. In my experience fixing these fire jobs I do alot of the demo for structural reasons because I no what to take down first so it's SAFE to work.

        Most of the time with fires that damage the rafters when it is stick framed you still have some ceiling beams to put plywood down to walk on to cut the rafter away and there 16" on center. The times I did a job where there were trusses, there was nothing left. and they were 24" on center.

        There's alot of times where just the ceiling beams burn and not the rafters. If that happens with a truss and the ceiling part of the truss burns, all your supports that are connected to that part burn and fail so that brings the top part of the truss that is the rafter down, the whole truss is shot if you think about it.

        I'm not a fire expert but I can tell you that I've seen fires burn in different ways over the years of doing these jobs and the ones that had trusses were a nightmare as opposed to stick framed ones.

        Some of the worst jobs are open floor trusses. The whole floor is one big open shaft with those things. It takes alot longer to burn through a 2x10 than those things.

        This is my opinion and anyone who does fire jobs can tell you theirs. The Fireman who fight these fires will know more than me and anyone else about fighting fires with trusses or stick framed.

        Joe Carola

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