*
One of the stairs I am presently building in my shop is an oak stairway with one side flared, with all the treads and risers having elliptical bows to them. These take considerably longer to build as each tread has its own elliptical curve that has to progressively change from tread to tread.
This type of stairs has a different set of layout procedures to keep everything in order, much more that an ordinary curved stairway has.
It has been about three years since I have built one of this style, and I am really having fun on this one.
Replies
*
Stairs just starting to receive treads and risers.
*more shots
*another
*more
*aerial shot
*side shot
*My tread returns always have swoop miters that are pocket screwed underneath. No nails to fill, and it makes a nice joint. Heres a close shot of the miter.
*The client wanted a simple bullnose detail....so I just used a 3/8 inch radius round over bit. This mates perfectly in the mortises that were cut with a 3/4 diameter flush cutting bit. Heres a closeup od the tread that is mortised into the stringer.
*Stan , Nice work . Those papers on the floor , are they for plotting the location of risers? Don
*Don:Thanks. I have all my riser faces and the stringers plotted on those papers. It took me awhile to lay it all out.
*Nice job as usual, so far I have not had the pleasure of building one of those. I hope you post pictures of the handrail being glued up, to me thats the most interesting part.Don, the papers on the floor are to make it easier to clean up after he gets to the top, sees it won't fit, and barfs. Ha! Like that will ever happen.
*Armin:Thanks. I will keep posting as I add a few more steps each day. Armin...about getting to the top and it not fitting....have you ever heard of a story about a stairbuilder building a stone stairway in a castle in Europe? The story goes that he had worked something like two or three years getting to the top with his stone work, and then found he had laid it out wrong. Supposedly he jumped to his death. I dont think the size of my stairways would cause much more than a broken ankle. :)
*Stan, I heard about the stone staircase but with a different twist, the builder was a German mason and he just remodeled the building to fit the stairs.This is kind of funny but a friend of mine built a HUGE stone fireplace, then after it was finished he built the house around it. I helped him frame the cone shaped roof around the chimney, wish I had some pictures, really a cool project for a couple of know nothing kids.
*Armin;Sometimes I feel like stairways should be built first,then the house around it.....considering the restrictions that they leave us at times.I always wanted to frame a cone roof, or an arched roof barn. I guess I have a twisted outlook on life. HaI bet that roof you built was a masterpiece...if it was anything like your stairwork I have seen.
*Stan, another masterpiece. I hope you never have to hear "meet ADA". An architect asked me if we could adjust the vertical rail alignment in a tunnel so he could use even 7-inch risers in an emergency exit.
*Stan, as usual, very neat clean work, still cant figure out how you manage to achieve such a high level of quality in relatively short periods of time!I was very impressed with the swooping miters, I had never concidered it until your photo. HOW do you achieve such a tidy join, even if it is pocket screwed? Do you have a male/female jig?How are your risers mated to the Treads at the back? Are they glued and screwed, or mitred again,....Or....?fantastic, keep up the good work, when's the book out? ;~)
*Jeff/Francis.....ThanksFrancis: I use a male/female mdf jig to route the swoop miters. I will post some pictures of the process. Here is the jig for routing the tread. The tread is rough cut with a jigsaw, then this picure was right after a flush cutting router bit planed the tread down to match the jig.
*Francis:Here is the mirror image jig used for the tread return.
*Francis:Here is my favorite tool in my shop...my Kreg pocket screw tool. I am drilling the tread for attaching the tread returns.
*Francis:Here the return is now on
*Francis: The end result on the visible side...
*This is a shot of a tread glueup.After transfering the pattern to cut the nosing line...I was able to take the cutoff and glue it to the back of the tread making my elliptical tread. The process to layout each succeeding tread was a little challenging at first.....but after some careful thought it is rather simple.
*More progress today....
*sideshot
*front view
*aerial view
*side view
*The patterns for the treads had to be individually hand layed out. This is a view of a strio of oak that I used to get a smooth curve. Precise layout points were plotted and the curve assured a smooth transition through these points. This is a view of the block clamped to the tread. The strip was clamped to this and bowed the right amount to intersect the points.
*another view of strip being bowed.
*overhead view of bowed strip
*After this tread is layed out, a jigsaw is used to cut to the line...and then a belt sander is used to smooth everything by sight and touch. This is myself with safety glasses protecting my new eyesight.
*I just still get a kick out of watching wedges work in the tread and riser mortises.Heres a glued wedge ready to be driven up tight. Notice the gap between the tread and stringer mortise.
*Heres right after the wedge is driven in.. The gap is gone....
*Rear view of tread after having its wedge driven in.
*This is a riser with its wedge driven in behind it.
*Stan:Great work there.Can I ask a few questions? These stairs are obviously being built off-site for later installation. How do you move such a staircase (it looks heavy), and wouldn't it be easier to assemble it without glue and knock it down for final assembly at the site?Also, I have a stair project coming up at my home, and I wonder what you think is the best reference book for high quality stairbuilding.Thanks
*Wow Stan- I'm impressed-cutting the 45 degree mitre on the riser edge of the stair jack must be fun.Very nice job.Bob
*Bob: Thanks....just as impressed with your work!Craig: I like to stay in my shop for 90% of the project. I just hire a few guys to help me move it. I dont care for onsite work if I can avoid it. It really isn't that hard moving the stairs in the house. Just a few critical measurements, and they fit nice. There are several books on stairbuilding. I just kind of use what works for me. Thanks again guys.
*Stan I always look in here to see if you have anything new. Fantastic work and thanks for letting us look in on you work. Why us poplar wedges and not oak? Thought oak might be less prone to compessing.
*Stan, Real nice, looks great. I really like the swoop miter touch and I also appreciate your taking the time and effort to explain your techniques. (I think we have a guy here who really love his work). I’m going to use that swoop miter effect myself when I get a chance. My question is what inspired that detail? Did you come up with it out of the blue or was necessity the mother of invention somewhere in your history? What’s the railing going to be for this project I got from reading the Curved handrail geometry 101 discussion that you were a Bending Rail advocate or have you gotten in to Built-up Tangent Technique Handrailing yet? Do you make your own bending rail too?> "Wouldn't it be easier to assemble it without glue and knock it down for final assembly at the site?" Craig I had to do that once. The only way we could get the staircase in to the space where it was going to go was if it was all broken down. Definitely not worth the trouble if you can avoid it. Yeah, they are sort of heavy and when they’re curved they’re unwieldy too but the time saving alone should be fairly obvious. Your doing two assemblies and adding a knockdown phase doing it field assembled plus you’ll be increasing dust generation on the job site. I could go on…. > "Also, I have a stair project coming up at my home, and I wonder what you think is the best reference book for high quality stairbuilding" My recommendation for a stairbuilding library would be as follows:Freshman Year: Stairbuilding 101 Basic Stairbuilding by Scott Schuttner Very basic and there might be an implied sub-title of "Stairbuilding for Frame Carpenters"Sophomore Year: Stairbuilding 201 Constructing Staircases, Balustrades & Landings by Perkins Spence I like this book although I do think it’s missing a lot but and it might be your best bet if you are going to pick one book.Junior & Senior Year: Stairbuilding 301 Stairs : The Best of Fine Homebuilding from our friends here at Taunton. This is one of my favorites because it’s a collection of articles from past FHB issues and therefore goes all over the place looking at all types of project from simple to exotic.Graduate School Stairs & Railing Design and Fabrication 401 Treatise on Stair Building & Handrailing : Containing Numerous Examples Illustrating the Construction of the Various Classes of Wood Stairs by Alexander Mowat. This is the classic text on the subject. All the theory and all the math and trig are in here for the real work of designing stairs and railing unfortunately it was written back in 1900 so there is no real how to do it type stuff in it. A Simplified Guide to Custom Stairbuilding and Tangent Handrailing by George R. Di Cristina. Same thing really goes for this book too only this one was written in 1994 (geez 94 years difference!) A simplified guide to a very complicated difficult subject. Very technical, math, trig, and geometry oriented and it really covers the Built-up Tangent Handrailing Technique well. This is my stair & railing bible but it's not for the faint at heart. Unfortunately both these books as important and as vital as they are seem to be missing the nuts and bolts part of just how to actually go out and do it. While they tell you how design, plan, and rough shape a helical curved rail using the up Tangent Handrailing Technique they never actually say just how to put the profile on to the damn thing for instance. i Wow my first try posting this tonight I really screwed up the html and I wrote Satan instead of Stan. Good thing I checked.
*Paul:Thanks for the compliment.....The poplar wedges are more than adequate. The loading on them is nothing compared to what it would take to compress them. True,oak would be tougher, but I will use either.Jerrard....Thanks to you also...The swoop miters were more out of necessity. I used to use 45 miters on my returns on curved stairways, and then I just got to thinking one day about making a mirror image cutting jig...and I have been doing it since. They naturally draw down tight and I can put them on and sand them in under ten minutes.This stairs is just going to have some plain bending rail,,nothing fancy. I make my own bending rail only when I cannot find the rail desired in bending rail.As far as tangent handrailing....I understand it somewhat...but not enough to attempt it yet. I guess if I came upon a client that insisted on that technique...then the "mother of invention" would take over and I would attempt it.. It would be in my bid however, and bigtime
*Craig, Stan, I hope you don't mind me injecting a few comments. As I mentioned in many of my other stair posts I knock everything down and reassemble on site. There are several reasons I do it this way. For starters I prefinish all my stairs in the finishing room. I get a better quality job finishing individual pieces as verses finishing the entire unit. Second, the chances of damaging prefinished pieces in transit is a lot less than moving a huge section of stairs with 20 guys. Third, I live in a very rural area and couldn't find 20 guys if my life depended upon it. Last but not least, being a little guy I have to fight off the big stairbuilders almost on every bid, the prefinishing give me an edge. Keep up the nice photos Stan.
*Armin:I can appreciate your way also....Once in awhile I have to build a stairway such as the one I am posting here. This was preassembled and then taken apart and reassembled on site. It was just impossibleto move this in one piece. The outside stringer was 29 feet long.I never do any of the finishing, but have that left for the client to arrange. Armin....There is no doubt that with you finishing your own stairs....that they will be extra nice.We are in different markets.. and I can see your point on getting an edge on your competition...It is that way with me....I stress the mortised stringers, pocket screw construction, and a good reputation for delivering ontime and taking care of my clients no matter what. I am always very impressed with your stairwork Armin...it is a catalyst for me to improve my work..Keep um coming....
*Armin:I forgot to mention that I have a house coming up with 5 stairways in it that I have to build on site due to space restictions. Three of them are going to be stacked one on top of each other. They are going to be walk under with raised panels on the belly of the stairs.You can see some of the brazilian cherry treads scattered around my shop in some of my pictures. There are 89 treads hiding in all my corners right now. I have all the stringers mortised, the risers and treads are all cut and fit. If there was a way I could build these and deliver them safely....I would. But the three stacked stairs would mean I would have to hoist the third floor stairway up a 33 foot tall stairhole. You can see about 20 of those brazilian cherry treads in the corner in this picture that has already been posted.
*Stan, I'm always impressed with the volume of work you have. This is the only part I regrett about living where I do, I get about two stairs a year and the rest of the time I fill up with millwork or furniture. I would rather stick with the stairs but just can't seem to shake the compitition in the more luctrive areas beyond my normal building circle.
*Armin:You know what I think of your work. If you were down here in Illinois.....you would be swamped.I have the option to pick and choose my stair projects. I honestly can say that I could make a living off of the projects that I have to turn down. Presently I am turning down work...UNLESS it is irresistable. The other day a couple came in and wanted me to do an oak spiral for them. I could not turn that one down. This one will of course be taken apart and reassembled. I love working on them. I remember how you splice your treads so as the grain is parallel to both the front and rear radial edges. I liked that detail.
*More beautiful work Stan! .... but I just feel I gotta tell ya before you deliver this set, you are missing the first step!;)
*stan.. i finally downloaded your swoop detail..now just have to wait for the opportunity to use it..great photo essay... thanks
*bake: Thats why that first step is 14.86 inches tall. HaMike: I have some more pictures of the jig should you need them for that swoop miter. They are just cut out by hand with a jigsaw...freehand
*You guys are just stair gods. I was all happy and bouncin' around like a new puppy when my 5 step, treated stair fit in the basement walkout. Then, I happen onto this thread and see craftsmanship like that...Wow.I don't mean to pry, but, out of curiousity, what would a stair like that cost for me to have installed in my home?Thanks - Matt Clark
*Matt:Thanks for the compliment,,,but believe me, I am no stair god....I shy away from giving actual prices of a particular stair. There are so many variables...location, material selection, how busy I am, etc.
*Here is a little more progress on this stairway. The treads are getting less of a curve as they approach the top where the last two will be straight.
*another view
Man, they killed all those great shot of Stan's work and I'm not very happy with the changes. They say that change is good....but this stinks.